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charlie-india-mike
21st Jul 2004, 20:32
To all Cabair instructors at EGTC

Please explain to me how you teach your students to join and fly the circuit at EGTC.

As far as I am aware the circuit high is 800' aal
And the base turn should be within the ATZ and not over Bedford
And final is not an 4/8 mile affair


I have been 'put out' by Cabair students twice in a week now and really would like to know what they are being taught.

BTW, the next occurance will result in a complaint to ATC

C-I-M

Astronomy Dominie
22nd Jul 2004, 09:37
...Just wondering (and I'm not an EGTC man), why you think the base turn should be within the ATZ?

Send Clowns
22nd Jul 2004, 10:06
Perhaps becasue the entire point of the ATZ is to provide greater safety to circuit traffic? I agree that occasionally at that point in the circuit the aircraft will be just outside a 2-nm ATZ, however as a general course it should be just within the ATZ on a standard circuit pattern. By chance I was chatting about this with someone from SRG recently, he having introduced the subject ciritcising circuits being flown large enough to be outside the ATZ.

charlie-india-mike
22nd Jul 2004, 10:10
Astronomy Dominie

Dont have the time right now to work it out exactly, but how many track miles do you need to decend from 800' at lets say 80kts on a 3 degree glide slope? Assuming you dont start you decent until you turn onto final (less if you do it correctly and decend to 500 on the base leg)


C-I-M

Send Clowns
22nd Jul 2004, 10:20
roughly 2.7 nm, C-I-M, outside the ATZ. However the 2-nm ATZ is designed to be just big enough to contain a standard circuit, hence my comment about occasionally being outside.

charlie-india-mike
22nd Jul 2004, 10:30
Send Clowns

Thanks, the last incident the guy was over 4.5nm out. And I had a stream of aircraft following me downwind which by nature meant that they were all going to make the circuit even bigger if we stayed in the correct order of approach.
C-I-M

Astronomy Dominie
22nd Jul 2004, 10:49
Interesting discussion...

My remark was prompted by the thought that the purposes of the ATZ are, in Law, divorced from issues to do with the pattern of traffic at an aerodrome.

Rule 17 (5) tells you what to do 'in the vicinity of an aerodrome', Rule 39 imposes requirements for flight within an ATZ. The two are distinct.

So, I would suggest that when joining the circuit, one simply assesses the 'pattern of traffic' and coforms to it. It may be a large or small pattern, depending on lots of factors.

Of course, this pattern size argument will run and run as it has for years. I tend to fly a circuit suitable for the day, so, a circuit in a B737 in great weather may have the downwind leg five miles from the runway, whilst in a C152, in poor visibility, I may be over the parallel taxiway...

As to more aircraft making the circuit bigger, this will happen, quite naturally, and when things quieten down, it will contract again.

One thing I do have a personal problem with, is using a 3deg glideslope in a single. This puts you outside gliding range of the runway, and is, IMHO, bad airmanship. Mind you, the same can be said of flying rectangular circuits so beloved of the GA community, rather than oval circuits beloved of the military or cropped circuits, popular in the gliding world.

ps 'complaining' to ATC may not achieve much - they don't dictate the pattern size. If you have a real beef, you might approach the CFI...

Send Clowns
22nd Jul 2004, 11:11
AD

I realise that in law they are separate. However that doesn't mean that the actual reasons for the rules are separate, it means that the rules have been set up to be flexible. I also agree to conform to the traffic pattern once you join the circuit, but 4½ miles is an awfully long way out. Some of those aircraft should have been requested to hold clear until the circuit was clear enough to fit them in, their own airmanship should have led them to do so as well. The pilot that far out should have been rebriefed.

Any circuit using a powered final approach puts you outside gliding range of the runway at some point. Good airmanship dictates you know how to deal with this so no-one is seriously injured in event of engine failure, rather than that you can always glide to the runway.

A 6°+ approach path (required to make the runway from the start of the final leg, let alone the base turn point) is awfully steep, and impossible to adjust if the approach looks long without sideslip!

charlie-india-mike
22nd Jul 2004, 11:18
Astronomy Dominie

I agree with you re the 3 degree slope.

C-I-M

Flying Tooth Driller
22nd Jul 2004, 13:24
Was Charlie India Mike being cut up by solo students or by planes with the instructors on board?

EGTC is a busy place, and I've done orbits, S turns on final and long downwinds - the lot. Goes with the territory.

In Fort Lauderdale, Florida, I've had base turns over the Everglades! I certainly wasn't taught that.



Flying Tooth Driller

charlie-india-mike
22nd Jul 2004, 14:51
Flying Tooth Driller

It was a solo student
No , not cut up this time.

In fact I cut in and so did the aircraft behind me and the student ended up as number 3. He was so far out of position that I never got sight of him at all. (scary thought)

I have done most of my flying at EGTC and am used to doing all the extending , orbiting, waiting in the local area etc

C-I-M


BTW Can anyone tell me what the correct approach speed of the DA40 is?

StudentInDebt
22nd Jul 2004, 15:02
Oh silly, silly CIM - they're teaching them to be airline pilots. :*

As a result all the studes fly 3* approaches and should be stable at Vref+5 by 1000' hence the 4 mile final. :* :*

Thats also why they are tought low drag and constant descent approaches in the Cougar!! :confused:

If you want to see some bomber command circuits go to Biggin Hill, thanks to the teaching of reference points for circuits, nearly every student turns final at 3NM on 21 and 3.5NM on 03. :mad:

Flying Tooth Driller
22nd Jul 2004, 16:23
<<<In fact I cut in and so did the aircraft behind me and the student ended up as number 3. He was so far out of position that I never got sight of him at all. (scary thought)>>


It is indeed - but it's amazing how you just can't see them always..........

I think the approach speed of the DA40 is about the same as a Warrior. I'm trying to get Cabair to let me fly one, but they are currently not letting hirers use them.

FTD

pilotbear
23rd Jul 2004, 09:54
CIM, technically if the A/C leaves the ATZ it is only then subject to FIS and could be in conflict with traffic not talking to Cranfield tower. So be aware.
Also, 3 deg glideslope is 3 x distance from threshold so as the base to final turn is at 5-600' you should be at 2 miles. If you are at 800' on final you would be at 3 miles
m

Astronomy Dominie
23rd Jul 2004, 11:00
Sorry, pilotbear, but no.

Aerodrome Control provides services 'to aircraft flying with visual reference to the surface in, and in the vicinity of, the aerodrome traffic zone'...

Whilst it might seem that Rule 39 should dovetail with this, it doesn't. Interestingly, Rule 34 imposes requirements to comply with visual signals whilst flying 'in the pattern of traffic', but there is no similar Rule regarding ATC.

See MATS Part One (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP493PART1.PDF) Section 2 Chapter 1.

charlie-india-mike
23rd Jul 2004, 21:11
Noted that no Cabair instructors have answered the question

Maybe I should go pay them a visit and ask for a check ride to see what their like

C-I-M

Send Clowns
23rd Jul 2004, 22:48
AD

Pilotbear is correct. Although the aerodrome control is able to give services to such aircraft, the aircraft are not requied to contact the controllers unless they are going to enter the ATZ. So if you leave teh ATZ in the circuit you "...could be in conflict with traffic not talking to Cranfield tower" as he stated.

pilotbear
24th Jul 2004, 08:26
Thank you SC, further to this have several hundred hrs flying and instructing out of TC in the past so I know the score, the controllers there are very good and cope with a high workload very well compared to other places. Often when it has been busy I have been able to get circuits on rwy 18 when everyone else is on 22..that can be interesting timing.

Air Born
24th Jul 2004, 20:19
>BTW Can anyone tell me what the correct approach speed of the DA40 is?<

With or without the fire engine waiting for it at the end of the runway?

Seriously, the EGTC circuit is sometimes a nightmare thanks to some of the solos - and not only Cabair, but few other solo students from some unnamed schools.... also not only solos....

All honours to ATC there for keeping the sky untangled. They have been known to rap a few knuckles when required.

charlie-india-mike
25th Jul 2004, 21:26
Air Born

Yes, they do seem to be having a few problems with the DA40's maybe its not the aircraft but the studes that seem to be lacking in the necessary skills to operate them correctly.

If I'm not mistaken most of the incidents have been with solo students.

C-I-M

Astronomy Dominie
26th Jul 2004, 07:57
Send Clowns,

My last post on this as it's getting a little repetitive...

There should be no conflict, because although there is no formal requirement to be in contact with ATC, there is a requirement to 'conform with the pattern of traffic'. If aircraft conform, they will not conflict!

Yes, in theory, you could fly just outside the ATZ without talking to ADC, but I don't believe you'd be displaying much airmanship.

ALEXA
26th Jul 2004, 10:00
Nobody so far has said what Cabair actually teaches!

I learned at Beds School of flying, which is Cabair owned. They certainly did not teach long circuits at Cranfield. For 22, I was taught to turn base at what must be 2nm, well inside the electricity pylons. The white house with the red roof at the edge of the little wood was the ideal spot.

Can't speak for the trainee airline pilots at CCAT.

And from memory, the Avgas engined Katana is 5 kts slower round the circuit than an AA5 - so 65 kts on final, but I am open to correction. No idea as to the performance of the new diesels.

Send Clowns
27th Jul 2004, 15:13
AD

I think I'll stick to the advice of the CAA inspector in my teaching, thanks all the same, and keep the circuits tight where possible.

You clearly don't fly with a great variety of people if you think that no-one will be flying near an ATZ without contacting the airfield, and a posthumous accusation of bad airmanship is not going to do you much good. Your good airmanship of staying, where possible, in the ATZ for circuits will!

Certainly 4½ nm from the airfield is outside the bounds where people can be expected to be complying with the circuit pattern unless within controlled airspace. I would happily pass this distance from a small airfield like Cranfield.

fly-dj
28th Jul 2004, 09:15
Nobody so far has said what Cabair actually teaches!

The answer to the question is CCAT (well my instructer anyway) teach the turn from downwind to bace should be made when the aim point for the active runway is percieved to be 45 degrees past the wingtip, which is about at the little white house if 22 is in use. However it can become very busy at TC with circuit traffic and instrument approach traffic and pilots are often told to "report before turning base" to avoid conflict. This is all very well but at these times the RT is also going to be busy and getting the "ready base" call in can be difficult causing the circuit to become extended. Once this happens to one aircraft it can take some time for it to contract again. Also some of the solo students near the start of there course may only have 10 hours TT and not quite be up to your level of excelence yet. It is a SCHOOL afterall and we all had to learn sometime.

Never got to fly the DA40 so dont know the speeds but the problems and frequent PAN calls resulting in the deployment on a regular basis of our friends in the big red truck can not be put down to the students. The plastic planes have a very complex FADEC system (some might say a little to complex for its own good) and a caution and warning panel. You cant blame the pilots (it's not only solo students in my time at cranfield I saw as many instructors being followed by the fire engine as solo's) when they get a caution or warning if they take it seriously. I know I would it the aircraft told me that both the little chips controlling the engine were on the fritz. Remember its only a couple of weeks ago that one of these "new" aircraft crashed after the engine stoped in flight.

Just one thing.
In fact I cut in and so did the aircraft behind me and the student ended up as number 3. He was so far out of position that I never got sight of him at all. (scary thought)
Is it not a bit foolish to cut inside someone in a circuit if you cant see them and dont know where they are. I am not saying that you should go on blindly flying downwind but if you did not have visual contact how did you know he may not have already turned ahead of you and you may be causing a more serious conflict. Would it not have been better to ask ATC for his location, if he was way out of position I am sure ATC would have given you a clearance to cut in and everybody would know what was going on including the solo who might have learned not to go that far downwind next time. Just a thought.

ModernDinosaur
3rd Aug 2004, 07:33
I've only flown the AvGas DA40, not the AvTur DA40D, but I imagine the speeds are pretty similar. There is a huge variation, however, and from memory (hence subject to a few knots error):

Cruise: 130knots
Circuit: 100knots
Base: 70-80knots (*)
Final: 65-75knots (*)

(*) these speeds are scheduled with weight.

Note that the cruise speed is significantly above the typical Cessna circuit speed (the first stage of flap is available at 108knots, full flap at 89knots), and the 'Star is a heck of a handful to slow down in a hurry. so thinking ahead isn't a "nice to have", it is an absolute necessity. Steaming into the circuit at cruise settings WILL result in a very large circuit as you struggle to get the speed off - plan ahead and it's perfectly possible to fit in with a microlight trundling along downwind at 60 knots. We have very few problems at Redhill fitting the 'Star in with other circuit traffic, and I believe this is largely because the instructors make the point well during the conversion training that you MUST fly the circuit at significantly reduced power settings, and that to slow down at all you have to start thinking early.

Now, admittedly the DA40D does have a hugely different engine management technique to the DA40 I'm used to, so the figures may be slightly different, but as the airframe is basically the same, I'd be surprised if there are huge changes.

Having been flying one of the early DA40's for two years, and having got used to the planes reluctance to slow down, it's a lovely aeroplane. Whether I'd really recommend it for ab initio training, well, let's just say I have my doubts. It's a lot of aeroplane, and even when I first started flying it (100 hours) it was almost too much for me to handle. First solo in a Star? My personal advice - as a plain PPL/IMC (no FI or CPL) - stick to the Katana.

Cheers,

MD.

crazypilot
8th Aug 2004, 21:20
How many Cabair / general EGTC guys have we got on here at the moment?!

Yeah have to agree though, Cabair do conduct very long, sometimes very annoying approaches in the circuit - sure maybe they are going to be flying big jets one day but a DA40 isn't one so why do it! Cranfield is a busy place though, you have to be prepared for most things. Flying the Bulldog and doing straight in approaches and avoiding the circuit is better though...

ATC lot do a great job....


CP

P!ggsy
9th Aug 2004, 10:27
Hear hear! Any controller who can include the phrase 'that's as much use as a chocolate teapot' in a response will get my vote every time.

The mole
13th Aug 2004, 21:02
TC ATC:

Reminds me of the time there I heard on the radio 'Starship cessna to the federation', only to hear the reply 'Bonus 71 you are cleared to join downwind ....' from the girl in the tower.
She didnt even pause either

The Claw
15th Aug 2004, 20:28
'Bonus 71', the sole of Cranfield! What a character! :ok:

charlie-india-mike
15th Aug 2004, 21:50
'Bonus 71'

This wouldn't be a character with the initials DC would it?

C-I-M

distaff_beancounter
16th Aug 2004, 13:06
'Bonus 71'

I think that callsign is now assigned to another Cranfield 'character' with initials RR. :)