£70K - Quickest Route

[stewpot007]

Dear All,

Been on these forums reading for 3 years only just registered as I never thought I would be in a position to ask my question.

I am 27, (28 Nov) just about to sell my property and pocket £70K profit. I have post grad level education, and a decent senior management career that pays well.

I have flown microlights for the last 2.5 years so know I like flying, even if it's a lawnmower with wings.

What I would like to know is if you had the cash what in your opinion would be the best route of training and what additional training could one undertake to make themselves more attractive to the airlines.

So far for my research I am torn between a few options: -

1. Naples Air Centre (0-fATPL) + JetLink A320 Type Rating with 500 Line Hours

2. Stapeleford (0-fATPL) + Astraues 737 Type Rating with 100 hours

Both these course come in a around £50-£60k with type rating including 10% contingency budget.

Really the question is what route would you follow and would you recommend doing training in UK airspace or does it not matter.
The only problem I can see in the Uk is if you dont complete in the allocated hours, hourly rates are 100% more expensive than overseas and your budget could get eaten quickly.
Is it more sensible to go somewhere like Naples so you stay on campus for a year and sleep, eat and breath aviation?

Basically what would be your route if you did it again and had £70k in your back pocket to play with.

I suppose you could say this is trying to buy your way in.........

Many thanks in advance,
Stewpot007
:E

[skyman68]

i did a ll my training in the US and converted here.

US pilot pass the UK IR check without problems when guys here spent a fortune.
Go for naples, fly in the US is a wonderful experience.key west, miami beach. all approach, landing, parking is FREE.

here u pay 40 pounds an approach, 22 pounds a landings.
300 pounds for a multi, 50 pounds for the instructor.


in the US. u pay 5 times less for 5 times more.
I was shooting 6 approach in one hour in the US(for free), in UK, one approach and one lnding (80 pounds).

after summer I go back to the US, rent an aircraft( at 60$/h) and an helicopter, and fly.

I will never ever rent an aircraft in Europe.

[mad_jock]

I wouldn't do either method or do the FAA conversion.

Main thing is to keep working as long as possible.

Get a 3 week ppl from somewhere.

Get a modular groundcourse Bristol and OAT will do the deed. Both get good write ups. And having seen both sets of notes there dosn't seem much in it.

Hour build either abroad or in the UK. If you buy into a share aircraft its just as cheap as abroad and it means you don't get hassels with getting holidays . After factoring living expenses abroad and travel etc it there isn't much in it. And go and fly round the area you intend to take your CPL in. It will make Nav latter easier.

CPL can be done in a couple of weeks or at weekends at some schools.

Now comes the crunch you can get through all the previous will still working. Its alot of work.

Then you have to decide when you want to go for it.

IR then MCC unless your type rating course includes one. If you think working as a FI would suit then do that. While working as a FI apply for everything. You could save yourself heaps by not paying for the Type rating. If after a year or pissed off with instructing

Then type rating I havn't looked at self sponsered type ratings so others can advise on that.

If your in a full time job remember to factor in your lose of earnings into the over all cost. You have plenty of time aged 28.
If you apply yourself it is possible to get through the modualar route in under 12 months. Type rating will take about another 5 weeks.

MJ

[joe]

I agree with MJ's comments, the only thing i would add is that training may take quite a bit longer than ideally planned, and by the time of completion who knows what the industry will be like.

Essentially, don't fork out for a scheme with a type rating included until the time comes.

Just my T & C's

[stewpot007]

Thanks for the valued responses.

I am off travelling for a while shorlty so maybe i can do a PPL in Aus or NZ then hour build over there and convert to JAA on my return. (assuming hour building on an OZ or NZ PPL is valid back in the UK?) Then I can get down to the ATPL Groundschool back in the UK Full time.

Once that is complete its all systems go for the rest.

Thanks again.

[mad_jock]

Wouldn't even bother doing that.

Do a max of 10 hours if you like in NZ etc thats all they will give you for the JAR PPL from another system. I would really recomend doing PPL in the UK then you get the skills right the UK way and the RT (It will save money in the long run). The hour build how you like. The the rest as suits. CPL/IR I think is best done in the uK but others may disagree.

MJ

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Stewpot,

If you do decide to do the Oz or NZ PPL whilst over there then when you return home to the UK you will find that your licence will indeed cover you to fly as Pilot in Command on G registered aeroplanes as well.

The reason for this is that the PPLs there are all ICAO compliant as is our own JAA PPL. The UK CAA renders all ICAO PPLs valid for use on G registered aeroplanes.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[mad_jock]

Just to add if you are post grad educated its a complete waste of time sitting the full time ground school. Its weeks of pencil up the nose saying "wibble" death by view foil from what I could see. Do it selfstudy. If your doing it full time ack uni studying you should be able to clear 1 module in a month then brush up.

If you have any sort of engineering degree don't worry about the study diary your meant to keep. Mine wasn't checked once.

MJ

[Irishwingz]

Do a max of 10 hours if you like in NZ etc thats all they will give you for the JAR PPL from another system

Mad Jock - not sure if i agree with your comment. Its my understanding that any ICAO PPL can be converted to JAR with a flight skills test and all exams (if TT is under 100hrs) or flight test and just 2 exams (air law and radio) if TT is above 100 hrs. what's this 10 hrs Bs?:confused:

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Irishwings,

I'm not sure what mad_jock is referring to either.

You are correct in the conversion process. I'll go a little further and state chapter and verse the CAA Lasors document.

The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) * issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown a minimum of 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, is credited the JAR-FCL PPL(A) flying training experience requirements, except the PPL(A) Skill Test.

The holder of a current and valid PPL(A) issued by an ICAO Contracting State (not being a JAA Member State), who has flown less than 100 hours as pilot of aeroplanes, but meets the JAR-FCL PPL(A) flying experience requirements is credited the flying training, except the PPL(A) Skill Test.

* If the ICAO licence has expired and/or no valid aeroplane rating has been held for a period exceeding 5 years preceeding application, applicants will be required to complete flying training at the discretion of the Head of Training of the approved training provider, and pass the PPL(A) Skill Test.

The above is on Page 4 of Section C (PPL). The exemptions from the Knowledge examinations are detailed on Page 5 of Section C (PPL).

In essence this is all exams if less than 100 hours. If more than 100 hours AND the applicant has a valid PPL within the last 5 years then only the Air Law and HP&L exams need to be sat.

However Stepot will not need to go through the above if they have an Oz or NZ PPL as I am sure they are an ICAO licence and thus can sit the JAA ATPL Examinations with their PPL. They are also legally allowed to fly G registered aeroplanes on the basis of their ICAO PPL as the UK CAA renders the licence valid.

Further, if they decide upon an Integrated course then UP TO 50% (max of 40/45 hours with/without night qualification) of their hours may be credited towards the Integrated course. Of course on the modular route all of their hours will count.

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[yyzdub]

I did the ICAO CPL MEIR conversion to JAA with ATPL theory.... long and hard... if you want some advice send me a message as for the route I'd take...


Well, the students at Jarez seem to be doing fairly well on the job market - just what I hear. With the US, I've heard both pros and cons... guess it comes down to where you want to work in the end and set up.

good luck either way.

yyzdub

[mad_jock]

There can be credited 10 hours instruction from any ICAO PPL a credited towards a JAr ppl if they haven't completed the ICAO ppl.

If you want to do a UK CPL to UK standards you are far better learning the UK system from the start. Up to solo there is not much differences between all the systems. Especially learning in the Commonwealth ex colonys ( this wasn't meant to be any way having a go, its a matter of fact that our systems are very similar)

Yes get solo when your away but do the nav etc as you will be expected to do for your CPL. You will only have to re train later.

MJ

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi Mad_jock,

Many thanks for clarifying the 10 hour rule, I forgot all about the rule.

Although I am a someone who is probably perceived to be pro training in the USA, having obtained my FAA CPL/IR over on the other side of the pond, I actually studied for my PPL over here in the UK at the local flying club around six years ago.

If I were starting out again, would I do things differently and go to the States to complete my initial PPL? No. I'd do it at home again as I learnt a lot about the UK weather, navigation and radio procedures that I wouldn't have learnt if I had learnt to fly elsewhere.

Having said the above, I will go on to say that I would do some hour building in the USA (especially on the West Coast), but not all of the required hours. Obtaining experience back here in the UK does wonders when it comes to the JAA CPL/IR flight tests (although I'm yet to do those).

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

LISTEN TO MAD JOCK.

By going off to all manner of places abroad in the early stages it looks like you can save money. Believe me this can easily be outweighed if you need extra training/hours upon your return at the CPL and IR module stages which get charged out at a vast premium to PPL training.

By all means hour build abroad if you want.

Neverthless - you stand a much better chance of getting a confident first time pass on you CPL skilltest if you've already completed a full PPL at that airfield, in those aircraft with the same instructor in the same airspace. Same goes - with bells on - for the IRT.

Remember instructors have a passing interest in you if you are just there for a bit of a module. Whereas if you are there for the whole lot from scratch then they will invest a lot more blood sweat and tears in you. This makes all the difference in the real world.

Good luck,

WWW

[stewpot007]

Listen, big thank you for these replies really interesting and makes you think that maybe nipping over to the US to do it all might be the wrong move.

Does anyone have basic costs for a share in an airplane within the UK. I.e per hour wet.
Just out of interest you can do the 0-fATPL with Stapleford for £25k

Accomodation on site is on £70 per week.
Maybe thats the way to rock.

Thanks again.

[mad_jock]

Personally I would head north.

Prestwick now has a CPL/IR school and also the flying club there is staffed by current local airline pilots (foot in the door and all that. A few of the wannabie members have started on the Saabs recently). I believe there is also a bulldog available for hour builders but i don't know anything hard about the setup. Great Wx.

Leeds flying school. Can take you through the training from PPL to CPL/IR. Wx crap though for VFR

MultiFlight same as above just to keep things fair but they arn't as friendly as LFS.

Tayside at Perth or Dundee only up to cpl/FI level but you are quite likely to get a FI job afterwards if you have proved your not a knob. Then IR with tayflight in Perth.

All of the above have CAA examiners near by so you don't have to pay for ferry flights for tests. The areas are pretty free of controlled airspace and local airfields have pretty cheap landing fees.

I think proberly Flying For Fun is the best to tell you about share aircraft and hour building. After a captial input which you recover at the end, rates can start as low as 35 an hour wet up to what ever you want. A hour built in a slow vagabond has exactly the same value for hour building as a hour in an archer.

But hour building in the UK has its problems with wx. PPL in UK followed by about 25 hours in the UK. Then a fortnight holiday building 50 abroad, towards the end, do your twin rating but don't sit the test (jar school of course). Then do 25 hours in the UK on the lead up to the CPL in the area your going to fly in. After taking advise off the school where the common routes are.
CPL in a twin (trust me its easier and gets you more twin hours for very little extra). Or you can do the IR first and get the 10 hours off the cpl.

MJ

Andgo and visit the schools speak to the students speak to the instructors. Not just the CFI/owner.

And for GAWDS sake don't pay up front for a package. However much the deal looks good.