View Full Version : JAA exams outside JAA country


ikea
16th Jul 2004, 19:39
Hey, I heard that one guyy was learning up to commerical level and beyone in the USA for JAA Licenses. But Im sure i read he had to fly home several times to the UK to take exams for his licenses. Is this because its not possible to sit JAA exams in the USA or was it because the flying school was just not alowed to?



skyman68
16th Jul 2004, 21:12
I can answer:

CPL/ or IFR training done outside of a JAA member state is not recognized by some JAA member states.

for exemple if you do ur cpl in the USA and come back in UK. it will be recognized by the CAA but not by france, spain, italy.

I did all my flight test in UK after my FAA cpl/atp, to avoid problems if in case I am hired by an italian company.

for the written exams, could be the same problem. recognized certainly by the CAA if done in a JAA school in Florida, but not by the DGAC.

Keith.Williams.
16th Jul 2004, 22:16
It sounds as if your friend was doing his study by distance learning. It is a (JAA imposed) condition of these courses that students must do a certain minimum amount of in-house training before the exams. In most cases this amounts to 2 periods each of 2 weeks duration.

It is possible to do the exams in the US. The schools in Florida have combined their efforts to produce a single exam centre. I understand that the use of this centre is included in the course fees for students studying at any of the three schools involved. But students from other schools are required to pay an additional fee to use the exam centre.

I also inderstand (have been told by a student who studied there) that for any resits, even the students of the Florida schools must pay an additional fee to reuse the exam centre. I believe the fee is about $300, but I may well be wrong.

flybynite747
17th Jul 2004, 02:44
Providing a FTO (flying training organisation) is approved by a JAA member state, JAA training can be undertaken at an approved FTO in any country.

Presently JAA courses are run in USA, Canada, Australia and used to be in South Africa too. There is an approved exam centre in Orlando Florida run by Delta Connection Academy which has been approved by the UK CAA.

In the USA all the approved JAA FTO are approved by the UK CAA. The only downside is that you must fly the multiengine IR in European airspace.

I looked at the Delta Connections Academy course at Sanford which would have cost me $54 000 (30 000 sterling) start to finish. The ME IR could be flown at Coventry with Atlantic Flight Training or any other UK FTO, Bristol or Oxford for instance.

Doing it in the US is certainly cost effective and fully recognised. Not only that, it is quicker because the weather is more reliable. Cost of living is also cheaper - petrol is only 98p per US gallon!

invisiblemoon
17th Jul 2004, 07:09
Sorry it's a shame but i have to confirm that Skyman68 is absolutely right.

It seems that few wanabees are aware of the problem : the british administration has a very flexible position about the formations into the JAR system.

Some other country just don't.

I don't know about Spain and Italy but in France the DGAC feels free to tell you : "sorry guy but your shiny licence isn't fully JAR compliant because your flight training did not take place into a JAR country and that is a JAR requirement"

...

ikea
17th Jul 2004, 07:36
thanks guys! why does it have to be so complicated!! Someone should write a 'Dummies Guide To Becoming A Pilot!'

2close
17th Jul 2004, 08:54
I looked through the German list of approved FTOs and they were all in Germany, not one outside the country. Unless I've missed something you could add that to the list.

I did think though that Lufthansa did some of their approved training in Arizona (is that now part of Niedersachsen?).

2close

BritishGuy
18th Jul 2004, 02:19
You can actually do the 14 written exams in Orlando (Lake Mary). They hire some hotel conferance room. I think someone mentioned above Atlantic and Delta Training Academy in Sanford, FL. They're the best people to talk to. I think the guy there is Dick Jennison (in orlando). They sit the exams in the first week of every month just like they do here in the UK.

Capt. Manuvar
18th Jul 2004, 10:03
Naples Air Center also use the Lake Mary test center.
I believe that in order to do CPL in spain you have to have done your ATPLs in Spain:confused:

NACGS
18th Jul 2004, 11:51
There is also a school in Japan approved under Spain for JAA training up to CPL level, they are hugely expensive though !

BillieBob
18th Jul 2004, 15:17
Here we go again - another bunch of misunderstandings, half-truths and distortions about training for JAA licences and ratings outside the JAA. The facts are:

According to JAR-FCL 1 (and 2) training outside of a JAA member state is restricted to all or part of the integrated ATP course. The UK CAA is, however, obliged by UK law to approve any organisation that meets the requirements, irrespective of where it is located. It would appear, if NACGS is to be believed, that Spain has also now approved modular training, contrary to the JAA requirements, in Japan. However, since Spain does not supply details of its approved organisations to the JAA, there is no way of confirming this.

Since this modular JAA training is expressly forbidden by the requirements, any licence or rating issued as a result of such training has, by definition, not been issued in accordance with JAR-FCL. A number of authorities, led by the French DGAC, quite rightly refuse to accept licences and ratings so gained as valid under JAR-FCL.

Naples Air Centre and Atlantic Flight Training have got together and, with the co-operation of the UK CAA arranged for an examination centre to be established in Florida.

There is no JAA approved training organisation in Australia.

When EASA takes over responsibility for licensing within the EU, its standards will be adopted as EU law. Assuming that they adopt the existing JARs, this means that all FTO-based training outside the EU, except for all or part of the integrated ATP course, will become illegal and, since EU law overrides national law, the UK CAA (and the Spanish DGAC) will be obliged to withdraw approval from all overseas FTOs it currently approves.

NACGS
18th Jul 2004, 18:14
Billibob, have a read of the regulation again, all I see it that there is a Appendix for FTO's carrying out "Part of the training outside a member state" and that you can only do part of the training on a Integrated course.

By reading the JAR FCL 1 there are some things obvious and plain clear things about JAA Training outside a member state :

1. A FTO can do ATPL theory outside the member state
2. A PPL can be trained for outside a member state.

There are some blurred lines it seems at first glance...

--IR training, a reference is made to the test must be done in a member state only (although there is some new proposed amendment to this issued recently wasnt there?)

--CPL training, yes not clearly mentioned, by I gather its approved training in accordance with this one line:
"FTOs TRAINING FOR PROFESSIONAL LICENCES AND RATINGS Provided that the requirements set out in this Appendix are met, approval may be granted if the approving Authority considers adequate supervision in accordance with JAA procedures to be possible."

--ME training.

--TRTO's, there are a couple of these in the USA and Canada, I see no mention of them at all being able to be approved or not be approved outside of a member state?!

For the record, NAC has students who have completed JAA ATPL theory, and now hold USA trained for JAR CPL's with a converted FAA IR . They are flying professionally in Italy, Greece, Spain, Portugal, France ( but they had to do a conversion for a number of things). So its not all that bad, I know up at Atlantic/Delta Connection they too have students who have trained out here and flying in other member states such as Italy !

And lastly, the exam center here in the USA is a joint venture Atlantic Flight Training / Delta Connection Academy, Naples Air Center, and ALSO the chopper people at Helicopter Adventures( we cant forget them) .

simfly
18th Jul 2004, 19:15
Sat some ATPL exams at Helicopter Adventures, FL. Think some fixed wing guys were able to join us too. An invigilator from Gatwick is flown out (business class!) at the schools expense for the few days of exams.

BillieBob
18th Jul 2004, 20:01
NACGS - Given your position, selective reading of the requirements is to be expected.

FTOs whose principal place of business and registered office is located in a JAA Member State (such as OFT, AFT, OAT and PTC), are subject to JAR-FCL 1.055 (a)(1) and it is these FTOs that are restricted (by Appendix 1b) to delivering only all or part of the integrated ATP course.

Being an organisation whose principal place of business and registered office is located outside the JAA Member States, NAC (along with EFT, IFTA, AAA, OBA and Comed) is subject to JAR-FCL 1.055(a)(2), which allows approval only if an agreement for oversight exists between the JAA and the non-JAA member state (which it doesn't) or if adequate jurisdiction and supervision by the approving Authority can be assured (which it currently can, sort of, although EASA may have different ideas). However, another requirement is that an approval process in accordance with the administrative procedures accepted by the JAA is applied by the approving Authority. The procedure whereby the UK CAA approves US-based FTOs has never been formally accepted by the JAA and this is the loophole that France, and others, use to reject licences and ratings.

There is a move to allow IR skill tests to be conducted outside JAA member states. I understand that this is being driven by Lufthansa, for obvious reasons. However, bearing in mind that, in the UK, this test is conducted by a CAA FE, can you imagine what the fee for conducting a test in the US will be?? Let's see - Test fee plus business class transatlantic ticket plus daily charge-out rate plus 4-star hotel plus.......

It is quite true that TRTOs outside JAA member states fall within the requirements, that's why I limited my previous comments to FTOs - selective reading again?

Of course, nobody yet knows which way EASA will jump - the initial consultation document (available on the JAA website), however, does not fill one with confidence in its understanding of the licensing system. Given the anti-US position currently being adopted by 'old' Europe and the generally protectionist leanings of the major players, I can't see EASA being too well disposed towards allowing the EU flight training industry to be 'disadvantaged' - we shall see.

likair
23rd Aug 2004, 20:11
Hello
just some questions to clarify regarding gaining a CPL with ME+IR licences abroad, in the United States.

So:
if one wants to study up to commerical level in the USA for FAA licenses and then converted to JAA Licenses. Assuming 0hours, starting from PPL. This means doing the theoretical and practical up to CPL in US. It will also include the CPL ME + IR (multi engine and Instrument Rating).

The doubts are;

Is it approved to have a converted JAA CPL with ME+IR gained outside a JAA state (i.e. USA or any non JAA member state) and use it in any other JAA member state ?

Does the system (JAA-JAR) states that if flight training did not take place into a JAA country, the license isn't fully JAR compliant?

If yes, which JAA counties do not approve JAA license that did not take place in a JAA member state?

Will the Instrument Rating be valid to use in any other JAA Member state, if done in USA or it must be done in any JAA member state to be vaild?

If there's any JAA - JAR documents that you recommend to take note of please mention them.

Thanks for your attention.

Regards
L|kA|r

TomOz
18th Sep 2004, 05:36
Hi Guys,

Can anybody help me with some info regarding Australian (CASA) ATPL(H) conversion to JAA ATPL(H)? I have tried to uncover the actual requirements, but have become lost amongst the plethora of bureaucratic jargon!

I would like to study the exams here in Aus, and sit the exams in England. Is it possible for me to study by distance learning, or is classroom time a requirement? If this is a viable option, can anyone recommend a correspondence ground study provider?

Thank you for your time, and I apologise if this subject has been discussed previously, but my search didn't come up with much info.

Tom.

FlyingForFun
19th Sep 2004, 17:42
And how, exactly, do the French plan to impose this restriction?

I did my modular JAR CPL at a school in the USA which the CAA had approved for that purpose. But there is nothing in my license - nor anywhere else, as far as I know, except maybe my CV - which shows that. My license looks exactly the same as it would have done if I'd done my CPL in the UK, in every respect, as far as I know. So how are the French to know the difference?

FFF
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