IMC teaching hours

[juswonnafly]

When teaching IMC courses do you log the flying as 'instrument time' when Bloggs is under the hood?

So far I have only included instrument time if we were genuine IMC, however another instructor has told me he logs ALL IMC training as I.F

What do you do/advise?

JWF

[BEagle]

Of course you don't! You are supposed to be looking out for other traffic!!

The idiotic JAR-FCL wants you to log 'flight under IFR', rather than flight in IMC, in your logbook, so I suppose if you're flying on 1013 and flying quadrantals, you could log it as flight under IFR.

You are surely only eligible to log I/F time if you yourself are 'manipulator of the flying controls' and you're in IMC or following an IFR approach procedure. To log someone else's time (as your 'other FI' seems to) is nonsense; when I'm conducting an IMC Rating Test in IMC I don't log any 'I/F' time unless I take control for some reason - why would anyone want to claim such fraudulent IF time - or is it another 'hours builder' ploy to pretend that they have more experience than they actually have?

[ 31 December 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[Stan Evil]

When in the RAF instructing and examining I logged Actual IF if we were IMC irrespective of who was actually flying the aircraft - this was the accepted (maybe laid down in GASOs) practice. If you were in VMC simulating IF then you, as the QFI, could not log IF time. My understanding is that in the civilian world the same applies (discounting the IFR/VFR time controvosy). BEagle, you log instructional time when examining - it's no different really to logging Act IF when supervising someone else flying the aircraft in IMC.

[BEagle]

So, Stan, by that odd logic (can only be a Learning Command GASO) did you also log the PAR which your student was flying in your logbook, irrespective of who was flying the ac?

IF is a manual skill - even if the handling of the aircraft is through an autopilot. He who does it, claims it! The other person doesn't!!

[Noggin]

When instructing IF you may log the flight as IF as you are the Pilot in Command. In the same way you may log it whilst examining.

Its not really any different from logging 5000 hours PIC sitting on the bunk watching others!

[BEagle]

Well actually it is, Noggin. When Commander you have a whole host of responsibilities to discharge whether you are flying, checking, talking to the cabin staff and passengers....

No matter what one may log, if I'm not actually at the helm under IMC, then I won't log it as IF time myself - I consider that to be pointless and fraudulent. Nor do I bother to log the meaningless JAR/OPS 'flight under IFR' time....

[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: BEagle ]</p>

[Noggin]

A personal view of course. Juswonnafly asked the question can he log the time he teaches IF. The answer quite simply is, yes he can. If you choose not to do so it is your perogative however, Art 28(2)(d) requires the logging of particulars of any special conditions under which the flight was conducted, including night flying and instrument flight. Unlike the military, there is no civil split between Sim and Actual.

[ 01 January 2002: Message edited by: Noggin ]</p>

[BEagle]

That's about the way I see it as well. But why bother logging 'Instrument Flight' time which isn't your own - what purpose would it serve?

I understand that it's only flights under JAR/OPS rather than flights flown by those licensed under JAR/FCL which have to log this ludicrous 'Flight under IFR' time - so normal non-Public Transport SEP work does not require 'Flight under IFR' to be logged - only 'IF' time?

The CAA's attempt to help with its GID has exposed what utterly bizarre decisions have been made regarding who/what logs what/when on each occasion! For once the UK military system (apart from the weird Coastal Command idea of navigators, AEOs and probably stewardesses being aircraft commanders..) is actually easier and simpler to understand.....

[Cloud surfer]

For JAR, Isn't it as simple as "IFR Flight plan" = IFR flight time logged for entire crew (which includes entire block time).

while

"VFR Flight plan" = IFR Flight time for the studen if under hood, and VFR time for the instructor.

IMC / VMC only refers to the FAA, or am I mistaken here?

[juswonnafly]

Whoa ! It was only meant to be an innocent question. Anyway thanks everyone for your replies

JWF

[RVR800]

Seems like you inadvertently touched a delicate issue here justwanna!