Wheel landings and full stall landings

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There are instructors who feel the three point landing is the preferred method and some who feel the wheel landing is perferrable when flying tail wheel airplanes.
Personally I start pilots new to tailwheel flying with high speed runs down the runway with the tail in the air just below take off speed, stop and repeat.

Once they have mastered this we go flying. When they are proficient doing wheel landings I then introduce full stall three point landings.

What do the rest of you guys and gals do when you do tailwheel training? And which method do you feel is safest, wheel landings or full stall three point.
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:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[dragchute]

Cat Driver,

Plenty of enthusiatic tail-wheelers down under with a lot to say on the subject. Try this link http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=12&t=005607

[Kermit 180]

I guess it largely depends on the aircraft type. Personally I prefer the three pointer. But no doubt you already have a view on this Cat Driver! ;)

Kermie :)

[LowNSlow]

In an Auster with a 10 mph cross wind limit, 3 pointers every time.

[Atlanta]

I am not a QFI (yet), but I was trained on Auster Autocrat J1s at a time when almost all PPLs were taildragger pilots, and almost all of our instructors were ex military pilots demobbed from a mainly taildragger airforce/navy/army. I was taught the three point landing procedure first. Wheeler landings were only taught as part of cross-wind landing procedure. I must say that wheeler landings on Manchester Barton's rough grass runways were terrifying enough after a couple of dozen hours doing three pointers. I should not have like to learn wheeler landings first.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Good morning again:

Yes Kermit I suppose I do have a reason for this discussion and some ideas to share.

First allow me to explain why I train in the sequence that I do.

Generally speaking pilots who have learned on nose wheel airplanes are not aware of the importance of rudder to keep straight on take off and landing. By making them do consecutive high speed runs down the runway and coming to a full stop each time they will learn to use rudder in the least amount of time. I do not let them fly until they can S turn accurately down the runway and return to the center line and hold it at any time.

The reason I teach wheel landings first is also because "most" pilots have trouble flareing for the landing at an accurate height above the runway, wheel landings will solve the how to flare and control attitude during the landing problem. When they can consistently and accurately wheel land I teach the full stall three point landing.

There is no hard and fast rule for which landing is best, it will depend on aircraft type, landing surface, x/wind and many other factors.

There is one rule however, and that is any pilot converting to tailwheel airplanes "must" be profficient in both types of landings.

As to different types of aircraft and how to land them anyone wish to comment on which type of landing you do with a DC3 or Beech 18?

If you have the opportunity to spend some time with a crop duster pilot do so as they are probably the most profficient tailwheel pilots you can find.

Actually there is no big secret to flying any airplane, all you need is a good instructor and the desire to learn.

By the way Kermit, I am sure you would enjoy doing circuits as I teach them in my course. We have access to an airport in our area with a 4000 foot paved runway, no obstructions and no traffic. We do sixty second circuits left hand , right hand, over and over until you become comfortable with the airplane. After that we progress to how to fly the thing.

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:D The haredst thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]

[CaptAirProx]

So how do you land a DC-3 or Beech 18????

Cat Driver - I thought you were an ag. pilot? You know I thought I had mastered landing my steedy mount today...... did the best landing I have ever done in the thing, you could not feel it touch (honest). I then tried the same technique again and "sort-of bounced" on the next two subsequent landings. Lifes a bitch! Fat chance of me knowing how to land a DC-3, particularly when mine is a tricycle gear!

Cap.

PS What is your idea of a good landing, as mine vary depending on the conditions! Today it was a wet runway, so technically it was a crap landing given the conditions. Hohum!

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]

[Chuck Ellsworth]

I thought everyone knew you always full stall in the three point attude with the DC3 and Beech 18.

I consider putting the wheels where I want them, when I want them, without alarming my passengers a good landing. Doing it smoothly is a bonus.

And yup, I used to be an Ag. pilot both fixed and rotary wing, best flying job I ever had.

.............................................

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[bluskis]

As my fading memory recalls, we did three point landings mainly from glide approaches, using side slip as needed, as the 'normal' landing, and wheelers with power on as later exercises.
Are not wheelers intrinsically more fraught due to the possibilty of nose over, even though they have a forward visibility advantage?
I seem to recollect the grass blades were easier to see during a three pointer.

[CaptAirProx]

Cat, all DC-3's I've seen land, wheel it on. Both on tarmac and a short grass strip.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Of course CaptAirProx:

That is exactly what I was driving at.

Ocasionally when we were empty and bored we would three point the DC3, really not difficult to do as long as you don't drop it from to high above the runway. For sure if you had passengers it would stress them as it is quite a strange feeling stalling one on. The Beech 18 is another animal, I can't recall stalling one on, the problem is with full flaps which you normally use there is no rudder authority in the full stall.

Speaking of the DC3 ever seen a C117? Looking at the tail fin and rudder you would think it would be better in a x/wind than the three. Not so due to limited rudder travel it is not as good as its little sister the DC3 in a x/wind landing.

Anyhow we are all getting a chance to express our thoughts on flying and that is what it is all about.

Incidently the most difficult tailwheel airplane I have flown for a living would be the Grumman Goose with the P&W PT6-20 turbines on it, lots of torque and short coupled. We always wheeled that mother on.

.............................................

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[Hudson]

I learned to fly on Tiger Moths circa 1951. Three point landings were taught. Wheeler landings were to be avoided due possibility of prop strike. The Dakota (DC3) is a different matter altogether. A light Dakota has a very forward centre-of-gravity and if one attempted a three-pointer and hit slightly tail-wheel first, the aircraft could often head for the woods. One had to be extremely skilful (and lucky) to consistently three-point a Dakota. It really wasn't worth the risk and so tail-down wheelers were the safest. Besides, you got better braking due immediate weight on the wheels, whereas in three points, there was a tendency to skid when brakes applied.

The Lincoln was easy to three-point and that was the normal technique. The exception was the Australian built Lincoln Mk 31 Long Nose version, where a wheeler was necessary at night due loss of forward vision due to the long nose. Mustangs were always three-pointers. Again, due to worry about a prop strike if the tail was too high on a wheeler.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The reason I started this subject was to discuss the pros and cons of wheel landings vs. three point stall landings in light tail wheel aircraft that are normally availiable at the local airport in general aviation.

I guess I have strayed into a different breed of airplane all together, so back to small airplanes.

One of the most important reasons you should be competent and comfortable doing wheel landings on light aircraft ( especially on a paved runway. ) is the simple fact that a wheel landing will give far better directional control at touch down, if loss of directional control starts a go around is no problem as you have sufficient speed and directional control to safely go around.

However if directional control is lost in a three point full stall landing the go around will in all likelyhood be a go around with the wheels on the ground, better known as a a ground loop.

Another benefit to the wheel landing is it teaches excellent roundout ( flare ) skills.
Something that is sadly lacking around a lot of airports, especially where flying training is conducted. A large percentage of small aircraft sort of change attitude prior to striking the ground and then arrive somewhere down the runway. I do not consider that a landing.

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:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[Hudson]

Cat Driver. You have me lost on this one. Are you saying that once the aircraft has touched down in three points and then you decide to go around again, that control may be lost?

Surely that is what you do on a touch and go landing ie touch down either in a three pointer OR a wheeler (whatever turns you on) then simply open up and take-off again.

There is no great mystery about a three point landing in a tail-wheel aircraft. People having been doing three pointers since 1915. The wheeler is of course, easy to perform, but because the aircraft still has flying speed, then even minor elevator movements can cause the aircraft to kangaroo down the grass, or runway or whatever.

However the beauty of a well handled three pointer is that as well as being aesthetically pleasing to watch, the aircraft has finished flying and stays on the deck - providing you don't spoil everything and shove the stick forward and bust the prop!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Hudson:

I am sorry you missunderstood my post, I meant if one starts to lose directional control after touchdown in the full stall three point landing there is the danger of ground looping due to insufficient rudder effectiveness, especially on paved runways.

On the other hand the wheel landing allows for far better directional control due to better rudder effectiveness. The wheel landing is the safest method when there is a strong x/wind...especially on paved runways.


As to missuse of the elevator after touch down in the wheel landing causing Kangarooing down the runway or grass, sure but that is the reason for proper flight training, to avoid sloppy flying.

The reason I started this subject is that most instructors I talk to have the misguided idea that the three point full stall landing is the preferable method. Most of them just plain don't know how to do proper wheel landings. I have found the resaon for them being uncomfortable with wheel landings is their inability to flare at a low enough height above the runway in a precisc manner to wheel the airplane on without bouncing to hell and back.

Therefore to be profficient with tailwheel airplanes one must be equally profficient in both full stall three point landings and wheel landings.

Which method you choose on any given landing is your own choice based on conditions and what you feel like doing.

I do a fair amount of flying in England and we get some very interesting entertainment watching some of the tail wheel Yak drivers go boing, boing, boing, down the runway trying to figure out how to land the things. I have always wondered who trained them.... In fact a couple of weeks ago I watched someone do that in a P40 so bad he had to go around.

Any idea of why we are losing so many warbirds lately? I for one can tell you it is sure making it very difficult to get insurance on warbirds and vintage aircraft, soon we will be grounded because we will no longer be able to afford to fly.

So please answer one simple question.

Does anyone out there think that proper training would or could cut down on these accidents??? Or are there a group who feel that the trainig is just fine as it is and we do not need to improve on it.

P S ::

Another observation I have made is that wearing fancy flight suits with lots of pens, pencils maps etc.. doesn't seem to improve their skills when landing..

:) :)The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :) :)

[bluskis]

Cat Driver
You are right in saying better training would reduce accidents, and it would seem from your last post, the training should emphasise go round if all is not right.

You are on the right track in pointing out that flying historic aircraft in modern environments needs more than a fleeting type conversion,BUT most display pilots seem to come from very professional backgrounds.

Perhaps it is the difficult balance between preserving remaining aircraft life, cost, and keeping up recency, not withstanding ageing iron, that is a factor in the tragic losses of pilots and historic aircraft.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Bluskis::

Yes of course I teach a go around if the approach or landing is starting to go wrong, that is all part of professional flying.

As to the problems we are having in the airshow world and also with warbirds and vintage aircraft in general.

I am a demo pilot in the airshow circuit and am quite concerned about the number of losses we have seen where airworthy airplanes are wrecked and lives lost in what seems to be pilot error.

For the past five years I have been working with Lloyds to put together a recurrency training program to be passed at least once a year. The check flight would not be mandatory, it would however result in a lower insurance cost to those who pass the check ride. Why should airshow demo pilots, and vintage airplane pilots not need recurrent training? It is my beliefe that they need it more than airline pilots who at least fly on a regular basis.

As far as the demo pilots being high time high skilled pilots, you should meet some of the winners I have met, they are accepted as excellent pilots because they have managed to B.S. everyone and they are part if a clique that are the chosen in their area.

Now don't go getting the idea that I am being envious and just feel left out, far from it I just do not wish to see our business fade away because we did not cull out the inept among us.

In the final analysis real professionals know that recurrent training is beneficial and necessary.

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:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D