Getting my ATPL in the USA........

[J1mbo]

Hey,

I've just finished a uni degree in the UK and want to get my ATPL in the USA. I have no flying experience as yet so want a course that takes me from 0 to the ATPL. As far as i undrestand the best route is to take my PPL, COMM and CFII etc then work as a flight instructor at the school whilst building my hours for the ATPL. All right so far? Is this the best way of getting my license?

I've found a couple of schools that seem to offer this, Phoenix East in Daytona Beach and Sierra Academy in Oakland, CA. Do any of u know these places? Would u reccomend them? How about any others worth looking at?

Also, do u know if they guaruntee employment with them, and do they pay a sensible wage? Once i have my ATPL, presuming all goes well, is that all i need to start applying for jobs with the airlines?

Sorry about all the questions, but as u can probably tell i don't have much of a clue about all of this. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

I'm soon off to the States on a J-1 visa to obtain commercial and instructor ratings and build hours as a CFII/MEI. What you must remember is that you will earn FAA ratings which will need to be converted to JAA at great effort in terms of time and expense. I already have an FAA PPL and JAA ATPL theory, so although the conversion will be expensive at least it will be fast. I reckon that after all training and living expenses, by the time I reach 1000hrs and JAA FATPL I'll have spent £35000-40000, so no huge saving over training in Britain. There is no way a school can guarantee a job for you. This depends on your ability, student load and instructors moving to regional airlines. Pay will also be very poor and will probably not cover living expenses. Obtaining the J-1 visa is also a minor pain in the ass and will involve a trip to the US Embassy in London. On the up side, you'll be able to instruct for multi, IR, CPL and CFI ratings; not possible in the UK with low hours. Your hours would build far quicker than in Britain, which should increase your employability faster.

So, the choice is yours J1mbo. Why not obtain your PPL in the States to see how you like flying and get the ATPL theory out of the way first. This will make things easier in the long run.

[englishal]

J1mbo,

You could do worse than looking here:

www.usajaa.co.uk

Maybe they'll give you a job?

Cyer

[rjonli]

Present I am a J1 student at Delta Connection Academy (DCA) in Sanford,Orlando (Florida)....
I am doing my 6 first exams in jaa atpl next week,and we have been having groundschool every day with all these subjects...Theres a total grounschool of 7-8 months which covers all the 14 atpl subjects....
DCA have a pure JAA program which gives you all the JAA ratings (including atpl) you will need plus in cooperation with Atlantic flight training in coventry...Plus the FAA PPL and IR which you need to fly in the us,and work as an instructor here...

We have quite a few british people at our school...Many of them prefer to do the atpl here,while some again prefer to do it back in england because they want to stay closer to home,and not "waste" 8 months of the J1 visa on studying atpl instead of earning hours as an instructor....

You can start from scratch at DCA, but I would actually recommend that you get your JAA ppl back home (honestly,it is not thaaaaat much more expensive), and also maybe your atpl back home!?!?!?! And the FAA ppl is a joke, you learn a lot more if doing the jaa ppl which will help you later in the atpl...

Dont know if this helped you anything,just wanted to share my wage opinion....

[flybynite747]

I looked at the schools in Florida last year. The only one that gave me any impression of being professional was Delta Connections Academy at Sanford.

You have to look at the groundschool as well as the flying side. At Sanford, all the groundschool instructors were English and had all got CAA approval and all had previous experience as instructors in the UK. The groundschool is actually staffed by Atlantic Flight Training from Coventry.

The other plus points for DCA are that they do the visas for you, they have accommodation available, and you can get dirt cheap flights to the UK from from Sanford Airport. They have lots of aircraft and if you are good enough, they will take you on as an instructor to build lots of hours towards the 1500 and pay you.

Unfortunately, I had a business and couldn't afford to be out of the UK for a year so I chose a UK school instead.

[BillieBob]

englishal - That's an interesting link. This Angel City outfit wouldn't have anything to do with that well-known organisation UKFT, would it?

UKFT, readers might remember, purported to provide a 'JAR compliant' PPL (no such thing) and even to provide training to the JAA 'frozen' ATPL. Closer reading revealed that they were, in fact, offering FAA licences and ratings that could later be 'converted' to JAA by their UK based 'training partners' - in fact, nothing more than you could get at any US flight school at a lower price.

Now we have Angel City Flyers offering the same deal, based at the same airport, using the same UK 'training partners'. What a strange combination of coincidences!

[englishal]

wouldn't have anything to do with that well-known organisation UKFT, would it?
Nope, they are a completely seperate organisation. Anyway, thats my last word on them, I don't want to upset the Pprune authorities :D

EA

[BIG MISTER]

Hi rjonli


Its interesting what you say about getting the ATPL in the UK and then returning to the US to instruct on the J1 visa.

I was told that if you had anything more than a PPL and 50 hours delta wouldnt offer a J1 'student' visa ???

[J1mbo]

Thanks all of you, i'm still pretty confused though! Does anyone know what you have to do to convert an FAA ATP to a JAA one? As far as i can tell u have to do the exams again? Do u really have to spend 8 months (or whatever it is) studying for them despite having studied for the FAA ATP exams?

I still fancy the idea of doing Phoenix Easts ab initio program to get FAA ATP and 1500 hrs then coming back to the UK and converting it. Another 8 months of studying kinda puts me off though!

The other option i'm looking at now is European Flight Trainings ab initio course in Florida which appears to get u the JAA ATPL with the same hours but costs more. Also, Phoenix seems to have got better reviews than EFT, and Daytona seems like a nicer place to live than Fort Pearce.

I cant believe how confusing and complicated all this FAA/CAA/JAA stuff is!!!!

[BillieBob]

Nope, they are a completely seperate organisation. So now we have two 'completely separate' organisation at LGB with surprising similar and equally misleading marketing! Must be something in the water.

[englishal]

Well BillyBob, if you are that concerned why don't you give them a call and ask them? Why not even call them at Enstone in Oxford and ask if they are linked to UKFT?

I have flown with them (both of them actually, did my PPL with UKFT many moons ago) and the only link to UKFT are the fact that both organisations sub-contract Rainbows aircraft. ACF also have links with other places around LGB, for example California Flight Center, and use their aircraft as well. Rainbow also subcontract ACF's SIM, and use ACF to train their students on some occasions.

There is nothing misleading about training for FAA ratings, and converting to JAR....

ta ta
EA

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

J1mbo, don't let anyone tell you that getting all of the FAA ratings and converting them to JAA is not a practical way of obtaining a JAA FATPL. If you want to find out how do the conversion, use the Pprune search to find info on on FAA/JAA conversions. The JAA schools in the States charge premium prices for their training and that erodes savings over UK training. One JAA school mentioned here charges $275 per hour on the BE76 for instrument training. The FAA school that they rent those aircraft off charges $175 per hour. There is the FAA conversion costs to consider but some people run into trouble finishing the JAA IR in the UK. This can prove far more costly than US JAA based schools will have you believe. Also, if you are planning on intstructing in the US under a J-1 visa you will need FAA ratings. The JAA schools make you obtain JAA ratings and then convert them to FAA. Again, this can prove more costly that they might tell you. You'll also find that you can end up in a cycle of having to renew IR and multi ratings if you obtain JAA ratings first, expensive! There are tons more pros and cons, but for me, I'll go for the FAA ratings first and do the JAA ones when I need them. Get the JAA theory out of the way before you start the J-1 visa though.

[Chutney]

There's a big red warning at the bottom of the page. It came to mind vividly while I was reviewing the posts of one of two participants.

Got to add that JImbo is being a plonker without doing some local flying or even a PPL to see if he or she likes it.

Anyone who's trained at a big school has met those who are trapped on a treadmill doing something with other people's money and they've long ago realised it's not really for them.

Pip Pip!

[Long Beach CFII]

As someone instructing at Long Beach, formerly at Rainbow Air Academy, now at Long Beach Flying Club teaching FAA stuff only, I can assure everyone that the guy in charge of ACF is perhaps the complete opposite of the guy in charge of UKFT. I know both individuals personally and have worked alongside each of them.

For you guys looking to do this JAA/FAA/JAA route in Long Beach, I'd recommend ACF - the instructors are dedicated, motivated and highly experienced.

I appreciate the healthy dose of skepticism and suspicion from BillyBob -I bet his preflights, and instrument scan are excellent! Joking aside, there's nothing wrong with bringing up a seemingly obvious concern about the motive behind a flight school, as the amount of money you are going to hand over to them seems enormous and should directly relate to the amount of trust you have in them to provide safe reliable airplanes, knowledgable instructors, and accountability.

Good luck in your search, happy trails to all

[vinil]

Long Beach CFII, are you getting a referal fee from ACF? How can they be an expert on JAA flying when they only do FAA training. I did my PPL with UKFT and am sure thay they have a JAA Examiner on staff.

[Tinstaafl]

J1mbo

To answer your question about converting licences: Use the search function! And read the sticky thread at the top of this forum titles 'Archive reference thread: READ BEFORE YOU POST A QUESTION'.

What you ask has been covered many, many, many times before. If, after you've done some research, you still don't understand something then try asking your question again.

I would be a bit surprised if you need to, though.

[scameron77]

I remember reading this post a while ago and just noticed it suddenly resurfaced. Upon reading the comments so far I'd just like to add what I know to the mix.

To give you my background I have been selected to start the internship program in January at ACF in Long Beach. Before accepting the offer to join them I did extensive reaseach on them on here and via other avenues.

To be honest I did not find one bad comment about the school or its owner Seosamh Sommers. In fact quite by chance I saw that people who have encountered him highly rated his tuition. In addition other people who booked to go with Rainbow Air found that Seosamh had been sub-contracted to do the training were admittely not pleased at first as you can imagine, but on reflection, very satisifed with the result and feel they got the better end of the deal.

To be honest I wouldn't have accepted their offer if I wasn't 100% for a few reasons, first of which is £29,700 of my own hard cash over two years, second of which is that they are gonig to be my employer after I finish my initial training and I don't want to be put in a potentially awkward position if their business practices are not 100% above board, thirdly, as already mentioned I will be there for two years of my life (I'll will have just turned 29 when I finish, some argue the best years of your life).

I had a lengthy phone call with Seosamh and we hit it off (well in my opinion) right away. He was affable and explained that if I had the opportunity of a more tangeable flying job say 18 months into my internship, although they would find it hard, then I could move on without penalty. In fact the whole money situation at this school is very amicable, eg. on 0 hours you pay for example £2,000 into a ESCROW account just so they know you have the funds, upon completing, say 20 hours you sign it over to ACF. Everyone happy.

I'd also like to add, Seosamh paid for my SEVIS and M-1 Visa application before 1./ I passed my JAA Class 1 medical (which I did on Monday of this week) 2./ Seen evidence I could pay the whole £29,700 course fee and 3./ Sent a desposit to confirm my place at the school.

Now, as I said at the top of the post some people may construe my post is tinged with a degree of bias, and to be fair I must admit if the school is busy it makes my job as an instructor all that more easier. However at this stage (before actually putting my foot on American soil) I'm well impressed with the friendliness, openess and honest of those at ACF and look forward to being part of the team.

In addition FAA to JAA stuff already queeried, I have been guaranteed that, although I will be in a FAA environment, I will be trained to (the slightly higher) JAA standard and then some on top, in everything from PPL to CPL IR/ME and Instructor Rating. Also my hours building will be instructing (slightly more educational and hands on than flying long legs) and the majority of this will be Multi-Engine.

If the above turns out not to be the case I can assure you, I will be the first to let you know on here. As I will be very miffed and money down based on the course structure as outlined to me. But to be honest my brain tells me its all there, my colleages tell me the same and finally, possibly the acid test, my gut feeling about this is very good indeed.

I have also been told and found out from my sources that ACF intends to, and has in the past, taught any student from a JAA country (as this is exclusively their target market) up to and beyond the JAA standard.

Stephen

[MEI]

How is JAA standards higher than the FAA. You should and hopefully will be up to much higher than what the liitle book says on your check ride day, in either system.

On the instuctional side, you'll find out how little flying you actually do past the first 10 hours with a student.

Have fun and good luck!!

[Lightning_Boy]

S77, out of curiousity, will you be working on a J1 visa?

[scameron77]

In answer to both questions, I'll do the easy one first,

I'd also like to add, Seosamh paid for my SEVIS and M-1 Visa application Secondly, with respect to MEI's post, from reading numerous posts on here I generally get the impression the JAA PPL is regarded in higher esteem. Now that be because that the majority of people using this forum are form JAA countries and ultimately want to fly in European airspace.

I gather that the American's are much more reliant on the skill of the pilot and his/her aptitude, it seems a lot more of their training is practical flying then worry about the exams later, where as in JAA circles there seems to be a fair regard for understanding the theory first then and only then let out into an aircraft. Please nobody jump down my throat and take this comment literally, its a generalisation.

As for my hours building, I've been guaranteed that I will have over 1,500 hours by the end of the course, my ATPL will still be frozen of course (for those new to the forum, 500 hours have to be Multi-Crew hours). Also this school seems to do things a little unconventionally compared to some of the hard nosed established schools and I'm pretty sure I won't be let down.

In terms of luck, thanks for the sentiment, I'm sure I will need it with passing my exams and mastering flying, however I'm pretty sure I won't need any "rub of the green" when it comes to my choice of school and program. I'm very confident I've made the right choice.

Stephen

[englishal]

How can they be an expert on JAA flying when they only do FAA training
Well I suppose if they have FAA ATP CFI CFII MEI JAA CPL/IR (fATPL) and JAA FI then they would have some idea on the differences.

Being "approved" and being able to teach for a conversion are two different things. Being approved means you cross the CAA's palm with £5000 per year, and means nothing in the world of IR's. Even the well known florida schools cannot carry out IR initial testing in the USA, which is why you do the last bit in the UK.

S77 - probably see you there. I heard about you from the main man - I'm off to do my CFI CFII and MEI with said company early next year (and am bringing the Snowboard)
;)

[Malc]

"For you guys looking to do this JAA/FAA/JAA route in Long Beach, I'd recommend ACF - the instructors are dedicated, motivated and highly experienced."

I couldn't agree more with this comment - and all the other good things said about ACF. I did FAA CPL and IR training/tests in LGB with ACF during the summer of 2004, then came back to the UK to convert to JAR fATPL.

BTW, I have no link with ACF other than being a very satisfied customer.