View Full Version : FAA leap in to protect... whom?
30th Jun 2004, 13:47
Yesterday the FAA published a Final Rule on 'Aircraft Assembly Placard Requirements', whereby from June 2005 all US-operated aircraft (and probably all aircraft flying to the US) will have to fit seat-back placards specifying the country of assembly of the aircraft.
For example USA
Now what safety-related passenger information function does that perform, I wonder?
30th Jun 2004, 14:53
An official document hasn't made me laugh so hard for quite a long time.............:O :O :O
30th Jun 2004, 14:56
Think this one could backfire - lot's of Made In France stickers popping up all over the place :)
30th Jun 2004, 14:58
Apparently it's because of an Act of Congress that states...
"The Secretary of Transportation shall require, beginning after the last day of the 18-month period following the date of enactment of this section, an air carrier using an aircraft to provide scheduled passenger air transportation to display a notice, on an information placard available to each passenger on the aircraft , that informs the passengers of the nation in which the aircraft was finally assembled."
Are Congress perhaps hoping for more Boeing orders as a consequence of irate passengers complaining when they discover that the aircraft they're flying on was "finally assembled" in France?
Will cabin crew be required during the safety briefing to draw the attention of passengers to the exit locations, floor level lighting and the nation of final assembly?
30th Jun 2004, 15:07
Let's hope Airbus make stickers with the subtitle.....
"51% market share and climbing!"
30th Jun 2004, 15:17
well thank goodness its not an instruction without some flexibility .....
"We will interpret our rule such that each airline can meet the new requirement by temporarily providing the requested information in the form of a sticker attached to each seat-pocket card. However, the required information must be added to the printed cards the next time the cards are printed for any reason."
but what happens when the stickers start disappearing??? .... they are sure to be a collectors item!
:8 :8 :8
30th Jun 2004, 15:21
Perhaps the CAA should require a notice informing each passanger of the nation in which the aircraft's wings were manufactured?
30th Jun 2004, 15:42
The fact that they are resorting to these petty tactics is a sure sign of the panic they must be in.. :-)... do you think they can bankrupt Airbus by making them print so many thousands of stcikers for the high-volume A380??? LOL
30th Jun 2004, 16:37
If not an April Fool's joke, this has to be a classic:
"The final rule will cost $522,000. Congress, which reflects the
will of the American people, has determined that this final rule is in
the best interest of the nation and therefore provides a benefit."
30th Jun 2004, 16:45
Hard to imagine anything more stupid,you can imagine Huck and Bubba in the FAA saying "hey how can we get more people to buy Boeing" hey I"ve got a good idea.
30th Jun 2004, 17:05
How long before this rule gets applied to jeans, sportswear and every other manufacturer? All the big US brands will be scrambling to sew-on that "last" button in the good ole'...
Whatever happened to simple "Made in..."? :(
This isn't the FAA,
this is a few protectionist congressmen atwork.
Oddly enough, its the democrats this time around in a nod to job protection for their core constituent (Union members)
30th Jun 2004, 18:15
>>Whatever happened to simple "Made in..."?
Actually, the U.S. is more strict about labeling country of origin than most European countries. Go into a German hardware store and look at the tools. The locally produced stock will say "Made in Germany" or even "Made in West Germany". However, the "offshore" products will usually have no country of origin listed. In the U.S. the offshore tools' origin would be labeled (usually China or Taiwan these days).
Europeans have strict labeling requirements for some products, e.g. watches:
30th Jun 2004, 18:17
That has to be a classic.......what will they think of next! Does this mean that budgets for French departments in US high schools will be increased?!!!! What is the translation for "Frabriquer en Europe"?
Around here seats will have to carry a "not made in USA sticker"... Our next aircraft deal which is worth $400million doesnt even consider USA built aircraft........
you can imagine Huck and Bubba in the FAA
You hear that, Airbubba? An insult, if you will....
I'm glad someone can imagine me in the FAA - I can't. I'd drive trucks first.
What's fun is that some Fords are assembled in Japan, while they're building Toyotas and Mercedes right up the road from here. Buy American? American what?
1st Jul 2004, 08:02
So Mutt... The BIG A340/330 deal is happening finally. Rumours where around when I was around your hood in JAN-FEB.
1st Jul 2004, 10:02
So where the fun will start is the actual definition i.e. where yr nice new 7E7 is final 'assembled' in USA from complete subassemblies from everywhere except the USA making up 70% of the acft...then it isn't ' finally assembled' in USA is it...
I have some US t-shirts which state 'assembled in Honduras from parts made in USA'...
Boeing - assembled in USA from parts made in Korea, Romania and all other places you can get cheap non union labour :)
Double edged sword this one :E
1st Jul 2004, 11:00
Maybe they'll do the same for pilots!
where you have to wear a big placard on your back that says...
"Trained at OAT" etc :E
1st Jul 2004, 12:09
What will they put on the 737 NG's?
'Made in the United States*'
*'Apart from the bit on the back. That's Chinese'
1st Jul 2004, 12:26
sorry Huck and Bubba,the names were random I promise and no insult intended.
Mr Wino,it is indeed the FAA,It maybe that the Congressmen thought of it but the FAA approved it:see ref below
DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
Federal Aviation Administration
14 CFR Parts 121 and 135
[Docket No. FAA-2004-18477]
Aircraft Assembly Placard Requirements
AGENCY: Federal Aviation Administration (FAA), DOT.
ACTION: Final rule.
Not so Matkat, the FAA was told to do it as part of the 2003 Reauthorisation Bill, without which there would be no FAA.
You notice that the FAA is too embarrassed even to attempt to provide a justification for it as is normal with new rules.
But it does point out that it will cost airlines $500,000 to comply!
Happily the compliance date is June 2005, by when democratic events may have overtaken the idiots behind this.
Meanwhile, enjoy all those proud "Made in Brazil" and "Made in Canada" stickers on the 1,500 (and rapidly growing) regional jets in the US.
As the information is mandated to be stuck on the evacuation guides, one possible text is: This airplane was assembled in France. If you mildly object, please leave by the door you entered. If you violently object, the emergency exits are marked on this card.
1st Jul 2004, 18:37
I guess we won't be seeing to many manufactored in the UK now will we? At least now that the Concorde is toast. Wait, just remembered that was French as well, you blokes just liked to talk it up.
sorry Huck and Bubba,the names were random I promise and no insult intended.
I thought it was quite funny, actually.
BTW, the funniest "label" joke I know: during the Los Angeles riots a decade ago, Jim Carrey (the only white dude on the TV show "In Living Color") said he wasn't worried - he just walked around with a sign on his back saying, "Black Owned."
1st Jul 2004, 21:10
At least now that the Concorde is toast. Wait, just remembered that was French as well ................
Really, and I was sure that there is a place called Filton on the edge of Bristol (Bristol, England, that is) where the BA Concordes were built.
Come to think of it, the last one built (G-BOAF) flew back to Filton on 26 November last year (the last ever Concorde flight unless a miracle happens) and is now a permanent resident there.
1st Jul 2004, 21:17
Hmmmm....and didn't the septics waste more on their wooden mockup than was ever spent on Concorde......?
1st Jul 2004, 21:43
Merchant Venturer now I'm sure you really meant to say United Kingdom and not England :ok:
Afterall as a jock I'm proud of concorde too :}
Every modern complex product (Aircraft, computers etc etc) includes components, sub-assemblies and assemblies from sources in just about every part of the world - its called globalization - we may like it or we may dislike it but there is nothing anyone is going to do to stop it now
there is no such thing as an "American Aircraft" or a "English Aircraft" or any other xxxxxxxxx Aircraft!!!! ..... there hasn't been for years :p :p :p
1st Jul 2004, 22:49
Do you speak of the AIRBUS owned facilities at Bristol, UK?
"Hmmmm....and didn't the septics waste more on their wooden mockup than was ever spent on Concorde......"
Glad we didn't build it. Would have been as equally a money pit as the concorde. Techno success was the concorde, on life support financially from day one. Ours might of had a larger production run however. Good thing the UK government subsidized the program until BA took over in 1984 or its retirement might have come earlier.
Good news, I suppose you can hoop and holler about BAC jets now, are they still be manufactured? Other than that is takes a collaborative effort of Euro governments and the heavy industries of same to take on one American company.
There something to be proud of. But only be proud of your percentage of the plane.
2nd Jul 2004, 06:35
IF true, such a bill in Congress shows how detached a few members are from reality.
The only thing that most passengers care about is the Ticket Price.
When we were stuck on the ramp/taxiways in Newark tonight for an hour and a half (no way to get a word in with Gate Control or Ground...:* ), we should have reminded the passengers, "but isn't the ticket price good for some of you?" No passenger has ever asked me where the plane was built.
Few, if any passengers, give a d**n where the plane was built. If they do care, what percentage go out of their way or spend more for a ticket just to avoid a type(s) which concerns them, other than irrational, very nervous fliers? :hmm:
In the past, after riding in the cabin of a regional jet and clearly overhearing two women's very ignorant comments regarding the size of the plane (larger than many CEO's corporate jets). After suggesting that they are welcome to stop by the ####### (flightdeck) after landing to ask a fewquestions, they say "oh that's ok, we just want to get there". Most spend their whole lives completely in the dark about aviation-but don't want to be enlightened. Many prefer to believe hearsay, and sometimes even superstitions. A parallel example is that letting much rain fall on your head can make you sick.
They say that the Dark Ages are far behind us. On the contrary!:ooh:
2nd Jul 2004, 11:27
Your argument is now veering away from the original thread. I merely chose to correct your factual inexactitude when you said Concorde was French. It was a joint Franco/British initiative and Concordes were built and rolled out both in the UK (Bristol) and in France (Toulouse).
As to the wider debate of subsidies and commercial viability that has been aired so many times and is probably no longer worth pursuing when it comes to Concorde, because we are talking about history.
I wrote Bristol, England to differentiate it from the many Bristols in the USA.
But of course you are quite right about the UK and you might note that I have always used 'Bristol UK' as my address on PPRuNe.
4th Jul 2004, 10:17
For those abroad who mock the idiosyncracies of the U.S. legislative bodies......so do most Americans...but furriners should please show some respect while doing it.
This is what freedom is all about.... If some opinionated fool, who has manged to get elected in a generally very competitive process, has enough marbles to trade favors with his peers, then he can pass a stupid, largely-harmless bill of law that does just about anything -- and can then he can take exaggerated credit for it from there on 'til the grave gets him.
The American congresses have, on various occasions, certified in law that water will run uphill, that time will run backwards, and that no persons will never say certain bad words...
No wonder the Brits finally gave up on their North American colonies. No sense of limits! No decorum. Tsh.
4th Jul 2004, 11:54
arcniz: This is what freedom is all about.... If some opinionated fool, who has manged to get elected in a generally very competitive process, has enough marbles to trade favors with his peers, then he can pass a stupid, largely-harmless bill of law that does just about anything -- and can then he can take exaggerated credit for it from there on 'til the grave gets him.If the single opinionated fool is trying to get a stupid law passed, the rest of the legislature ought to be there restraining him. That process is what keeps freedom alive - democracy is about collective wisdom at work, not collective idiocy.
Unfortunately, the collective wisdom seems to have gone for a walk this time.
Not Airbus nor Boeing!
Anti Skid On
4th Jul 2004, 23:23
Sorry to be pedantic, but this issue is deeper than :where the aircraft was made: - are they going to differentiate between the airframe and the engines? You can get Airbuses with US or Euro made engines, and likewise Boeings - so are the oliticians looking to apportion blame to grounded flights that go tech?
I'd be happier with a sticker that says maintainence performed by and that agency listed!
4th Jul 2004, 23:55
Legislative bodies all over the world are just about the same. This particular piece of asinine legislation might seem to indicate the ineffectiveness of US airline lobbying which, presumably, should have been fighting it tooth and nail.
Many posts here are focussing on the Airbus vs Boeing issue. My feebly fertile brain conjures up images of outraged American passengers storming off A321s after reading the label on the seatback, demanding their money back. Or, more insiduously, vowing never to fly ABC again because they don't buy American.
Think a few years down the road. I read last week that the first lot of six Embraer something or others built under license in China had just been delivered. How ridiculous is it going to look when the passengers on those shiny new 737-1000s or A370s sit down and read, on that $500,000 label, "Final assembly in PRC"?
One of the US states officially decreed the value of 'pi' to be 3, once upon a time. I guess they wanted to get away from faffing around with all those little numbers to the right of the decimal point.
We shouldn't have a problem with kit from Brazil or Canada, since we can just say 'Made in America' and leave it at that, when your average Yank won't know the difference. 'Made in Germany' usually plays well too, thanks to our notion of German quality standards.
'Made in France', though... images of some surly guy with a blue chin, a beret and a Gauloise hanging out of the corner of his mouth, saying 'I am le tired! Slam ze panel on wizout bucking ze rivets. Is time for le coffee break!'
Here in Germany we have, yes, BMWs and Mercs made in the USA. German manufacturers must just love the idea of using a low-wage labour force. With lots of remedial training quality standards have come up to acceptable levels. Not as good as German standards, but then, what is? At least they can make a profit selling the vehicles at competitive prices.
The Japs have been building vehicles in the States for quite some time now. They hit some trouble getting our folk to wear the mandatory Company uniforms with no-scratch buttons, while our womenfolk took issue with the male-dominated Jap way of doing business as well. A few class-action suits later, there has been a two-way, full and frank exchange of views so that the combination of Jap brains and American muscle has gone from strength to strength.
I got a ride in a new Bentley the other day, the one with an engine made up of three Golf units all crammed together. It was a rather strange amalgam of trad English styling accents (shiny chrome knobs for the fresh air vents and the usual polished walnut dashboard, for example) and underlying German design. How would you label that, if you had to?
Given that the SLF board through a jetway that affords almost no view of the aircraft itself, some silly little label is perhaps the only way they could be made aware of riding in a European product instead of one from the USA. Would that make any difference if the price is right? As if! Or should we next see operators playing the patriot card by stating that their fleet is American-made?
6th Jul 2004, 05:51
Amazingly stupid idea. The clincher is the the 'finally assembled' phrase, not 'made in' but finally assembled. So naturally Airbus was 'finally assembled in France' which is a total distortion considering the multinational and indeed partly American construction of all Airbuses. In fact a remarkable 50% of the Airbus A380 will be American components.
I imagine the idiots who came up with this idea originally intended it to say 'Made in' until someone pointed out that no aircraft was made in any one country anymore. Think of the expense of trying to add all the countries to the list on the sticker. Certainly no Boeing is. You know it really makes you wonder at the intelligence of elected representatives. :ugh:
6th Jul 2004, 11:14
...or that of the electorate.
6th Jul 2004, 11:46
A genuine question - do you pro's think it possible that arguements may arise from patriotic dullards, having brought a ticket and then objecting to travelling in an aircraft built somewhere they don't like that week?
What ever next - will petrol stations have to supply little stickers saying the petrol here originated from oil extracted from xxx country ?
It would be far more useful from a pax point of view to display the year of manufacture of an aircraft.
6th Jul 2004, 16:13
If you delve into the documentation for this NPRM, it gets even funnier. The FAA's proposed implementation is for a sticker (costing 50 cents) to be attached to the safety card by the cleaning staff :p
My reading (between the lines) is that the FAA considers this requirement rather silly too, to judge from the number of times the phrase Congress has decided this is in the best interest of the nation appears.
As to whether any 'patriot' is going to storm off the plane upon seeing a Made in Brazil/Canada/France sticker entirely depends on how many actually read the safety card. In other words, none. Were the manufactured date to be similarly presented, I suspect nobody would get off either.
Actually, the data plate on DC-9s is conveniently located on the 1L door frame but I'm the only passenger I've ever seen look at it, purely for interest's sake you understand, when flying on a certain US airline whose predeliction for geriatric DC-9s of debatable provenance is legend :ok:
6th Jul 2004, 17:14
PaperTiger: My reading (between the lines) is that the FAA considers this requirement rather silly tooIt read to me like bureaucrat-speak for "I am deeply embarrassed to have to do this, because I think it's a complete load of ********, but I was made to do it." Which the FAA was. Good for them to have the courage to pin the blame where it belongs.
7th Jul 2004, 01:41
Paper Tiger, yes, in retrospect that bit about "Congress represents the will of the American people" is a bit tongue in cheek.
I hope the Washington Post gets hold of it and names every single congressman that voted aye.
7th Jul 2004, 03:49
2A - If the Northwest DC10 I had the pleasure of riding across the pond in a couple of months ago had a year of manufacture...........well, let's just say there probably wan't enough alcohol on the flight to make me feel comfortable ;)
Jerricho, that's exactly the point! Glad you made it there safely.