Wing Drop Stalls

[southposs]

Hi, I was wondering if some of you instructors out there have any advice about how I can get out of the habit of trying to use ailerons to pick up the wing in a wing drop stall,which to me is an instinctive reaction.The a/c I training in is a Piper Tomahawk.Thanks. Bruce

[CaptAirProx]

If you were my student. I would get you to bring the aircraft back to the stall - gently. And then at the stall I would take the column and leave you with the rudders. I would then ask you to just try and stop the wings from dropping either way by use of rudder. You will end up dancing on the pedals gaining confidence in that they do work. I would just keep it on "light" stall so as no major wing drop. You would then be asked to do the same but this time you hold the column - using both hands. (Helps to keep them locked!) No full recovery just hold it in the stall keeping your wings relatively level with the use of rudder. After that, I would get you to use both hands on recovery and do a recovery without the use of power (both hands on stick). Then a standard stall recovery (One hand on stick the other throttle). Normally works with most guys. Always start with a gentle wing drop and build it up. Ps - Never taught on the PA-38 thing so can't comment on any handling glitches etc. Interesting to hear what you instructor says. I assume you have approached him/her, it is really his/her job to sort you out not here.

[laurie]

Hi Bruce - I trained on the tomohawk for my PPL and had the same impulse to correct with the stick, which of course can have disastrous results.

If you do a search on this subject within Wannabees or Instuctors forums there are some really good threads that I remember reading.

What the previous member has said about gradually training for elements of the recovery and then piecing it together is great advice. In particular, nearing the stall, the difference in the final pull back to provoke the stall is important.

A strong pull back at this time usually gives quite a savage wing drop, whereas if you just hold the back pressure it will, in its own time, start to drop a wing a bit slower.

This gives you more time to think about the drill & do the 'proper' thing, rather than the impulse to correct with aileron coming through and ruining it.

You can then build up to the more violent wingdrops whilst 'reprogramming', if you like, your instinctive response to the stall.

One thing that sticks in my mind from the threads here was someone saying to push the yoke from the centre (hands away from either handle grip) - then there isn't really anyway you can put in aileron. It worked for me...

Also - do however much stalling is required until you feel really comfortable esp. the wing drops.

Good luck with it and I hope this helps. Being in NZ, the search function during the day usually works (when UK are sleeping)

Out of interest, where are you training?


Regards, Laurie.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

It's a very normal reaction to want to level the wings. But the aeroplane doesn't care where the horizon is, all it wants is some airspeed.

I find the best way to avoid this is to recover from a wing drop by pushing on the centre of the control column, like beeping the horn in your car, that way you can't move the ailerons.

A word of caution, there are some that teach to apply full opposite rudder in a wing drop, but this could cause the aircraft to get more out of balance and possibly spin the opposite way; and is only needed in a fully developed spin recovery. So, lower the nose to get some airspeed, then use enough rudder to regain balance.

Similarly in the recovery from a stall in a banked attitude, such as turning onto final, don't confuse bank angle for yaw or again you could spin the opposite way if you give it a bootful.

Doing some fully developed spin recoveries and other aerobatic things will help in confidence with unusual attitudes at slow speeds.

Good luck

[foxmoth]

The only trouble with recovering using the centre of the c.c. is that this is NOT how we fly an aircraft. What must be remembered here is we are training for an INADVERTANT stall and the messing about changing grip is not realistic in that situation ( though hopefully you will have reecovered LONG before reaching the FULL stall!).

[laurie]

Yes fox, but it is useful in getting through the initial tendency to put aileron input in - Once that is straight in someone's mind, they can have their hands wherever.

The other thing is just practice and doing loads of stalls so the correct recovery is the one you do naturally without too much conscious effort.

[john_tullamarine]

One of the problems lies with the instructor fraternity's not usually having a certification or flight test background.

He who plays with rudder at the stall invites a spin.

John Farley has written some very pertinent posts on stalling. Might I suggest that you search the forums for these and consider the views of a very experienced certification test pilot ?

[fireflybob]

Another factor I would like to throw into this debate is that we are surely not teaching the student how to stall but how:-

a) Recognise the signs of an approaching stall;

b) Recognise the symptoms of the full stall and

c) Recover with minimum loss of height.

Having demonstrated the symptoms of the full stall (ie heavy buffet, a/c descending, nose pitches down, possible wing drop), I then teach the student to recover at the first symptom of the full stall - because in the real world I would expect him to be carrying out the standard stall recovery sooner rather than later! If we are getting to the point where a wing is dropping then we are looking at an incipient spin recovery.

In the UK, in my opinion, PPL training tends to concentrate too much on holding the aicraft in the stall rather than emphasising an early recovery.

[southposs]

Thanks for all your replies.I went out with the CFI the other day,and all he got me to do when the wing dropped was release back pressure then "kick in" top rudder,then power,and then ailerons.He said don't worry about height loss(approx 200' from 3000')at the moment just get my technique sorted out.It worked well.Laurie I'm training at Southland Aviation College in Invercargill. Bruce

[john_tullamarine]

fireflybob,

I am glad to see your comment. Certification (of normal cat aircraft often used for training) addresses matters which are appropriate to early recovery. Holding the aircraft into the stall can produce effects that the test pilot may well not have seen.... I know of some aircraft models which have a propensity to flick inverted and spin, for instance. The training emphasis ought to be on

(a) avoid
(b) immediate recovery and return to 'normal' flight

Again, I would urge posters to consider the very detailed discussions put by John Farley on the subject.


As this subject comes up regularly on Pprune and the potential for hazard is great if students get too much duff gen, may I suggest that a search through this forum for threads relating to "stalls" produces an interesting couple of hours' reading .. I know because I have just done this.

The thread to which I referred earlier with John Farley's comments is

"spinnaphobia" in this forum dated 21JUN01

When reading JF's comments, please do keep in mind that he is one of the experimental flight test community's elder statesmen test pilots. One tends to listen to his observations in related areas with due attention and consideration - ie he has been there and done pretty well all of it.

By the way, can someone tell me how to include a hyperlink to another thread in a post, please ?

[ 27 October 2001: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]

[CaptAirProx]

fireflybob, you maybe right in what you say but a student needs to see and control a fully developed stall. It's most likely going to happen on the turn to final or just after takeoff, ie - heavy, lack of climb, raising the nose etc, etc. Have you seen how quickly a relatively 'safe' training aircraft can drop a wing and stall/spin with very little warning. Particularly at high weight/aft CofG. A least they might not crap themselves if it happened. Yes prevention is better than cure. But the best form of defense is to know what it is your defending. Also under the JAR Skill Test, there is no requirement to see a incipient spin at the stall. The only stall that is taken back to the full stall is the clean power off case. ****** all happens in most training aircraft. The other stalls are recovered at the approach to the stall. So maybe current UK instucting as you see it may change towards this. I hope not. Gives students a lot of confidence to be able to control a fully developed stall and develops the respect that it deserves.

[Genghis the Engineer]

John,

When you're in the "Post a Reply" window, just to the left of the box you type in are the words "UBB Code is enabled". Click on that, and all is revealed.

G

[john_tullamarine]

Genghis,

Thanks

CaptAirProx,

I suspect that most of us see the value of students' exploring stall and spin.

The problem is the aircraft... such exercises ought to be done in an acrobatic aircraft where the behaviour has been adequately investigated.... in normal cat machines, the potential outcome might be difficult to defend at trial ....

Consider that some popular light twins, in particular, have very nasty propensities to do surprising things if you hold them into the stall ..

[spekesoftly]

Interested to read John_Tullamarine's comment:-

"He who plays with rudder at the stall invites a spin"

I did my basic flying training on RAF Chipmunks, back in the sixties. We were specifically taught to pick up a wing drop in the stall with rudder. It was emphasised that the application of aileron to an already stalled wing could invite a spin.

Some ten years later, I did a PPL refresher course on C150s(ish). My civilian instuctor used aileron to correct a wing drop in the stall.

I was intrigued, but just did as I was taught for each aircraft at the time.


The contents of this post have NOT been checked for accuracy against the vagaries of my memory! :)

[fireflybob]

Years ago CFS used to teach "prevent further wing drop with rudder" - but this was deleted since, I agree with John_Tullamarine's comment:-
"He who plays with rudder at the stall invites a spin", it was thought that to teach this might more readily induce a spin.

Capt AirProx, I am sure that your teaching is thorough and effective but having shown the student a "full stall" I see little value in him actually practising same since the objective is for him to recognise the signs of a full stall and recover without delay. (This assumes that he has missed the signs of an approaching stall).

You are correct that the JAR Skills Test states "clean stall". It is probably a matter of semantics but, at the risk of teaching my grandmother to suck eggs (!), the symptoms of the full stall are:-

Heavy Buffet
A/c descending
Nose pitch down
Possible wing drop

Depending on the situation any one of these may occur first. Since, by definition, these are symptoms of the full stall then when anyone of these occur the aircraft is "fully stalled", ergo this complies with the JAR requirement for clean stall (and recovery). It is more important for the student to recognise the first (full) symptom and recover since this is what he should do if it really happens to him.

Finally, I agree it is a matter of opinion and I am sure what you do yourself is very effective - there is, as they say, more than one way of "skinning a cat".

I speak as one who is essentially "civil" trained, etc but also one who has had experience of the military way of doing it - and I think the military have got it right!

[john_tullamarine]

spekesoftly,

There is no problem with our observations, as we are talking about aircraft from very different ages. The (lovely) dinosaurs or our youth had all sorts of interesting characteristics like lots of aileron drag, little or no washout to control spanwise stall onset and the like ... aileron was not the way to go.

Still, a bootfull of rudder increases the risk of autorotation.. I far prefer the technique of unloading the wing, unstalling, and then recovering in controlled flight. One may lose more height, but the reliability is more repeatable.

The more modern standards require the aircraft to have far more docile characteristics, including aileron control through the stall entry.. hence the old problem has largely gone to ground.

In all cases, if the instructor intends to use a normal category aircraft for such training then it is prudent to do sufficient investigation to determine if that particular S/N aircraft's characteristics are sufficiently docile for the purpose of such training.

If this is not formalised through the airworthiness system then just where this might leave everyone in the event that an individual exercise leads to a serious incident or accident remains an interesting question I suggest.

From a personal viewpoint, I think that all pilots ought to have a sound grounding in aerobatics, it is just the means which I question.

[ 28 October 2001: Message edited by: john_tullamarine ]

[Chuck Ellsworth]

John-T makes very clear and correct points concerning this subject.

May I add some hints to his last comments.

In that all aircraft behave different it is important to do the following.

(1) Read and "understand" the pilot operating handbook for the airplane you are about to fly.
(2)Before you fly any new (to you) airplane get a thorough check out from a pilot who has experience on and understands the airplane.
(3) Never exceed your own skill or knowledge limits. In other words don't screw around in any area of flight you (and the airplane) are not safe to explore.

And Remember ...............................

:D The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. :D

[CaptAirProx]

I agree with most of what has been said here. Flythebob, your thoughts are noted. However, I would like to point out that we as civi instructors, certainly in the UK have to teach students the worse case scenario. In that I mean all pilots once qualified can jump into any SEP(L) aircraft of simple type. Some of these aircraft including microlight versions and kit builds are very slippery and not particularly docile or forgiving. The rate at which some of these go from sloppy controls to buffet and immediately drop a wing are alarming. And if a student hasn't seen and coped with that before I think they are poorly placed. In fact some may not demonstrate particularly obvious symptoms until its all over.

Someone here mentioned twins and stalling. Well I have a lot of respect for stalling the twins that I have trained on. And don't take them or hold them in any deep stall during training. My belief is that the student should have been shown and flown the wing drops et all during their Single PPL. Just need to train them the symptoms. Therefore should be no need to explore the unknown.
Flythebob - PS, I am a civi but was trained and worked under an ex CFS chappie so understand the RAF methods. And agree with a lot of them.

[spekesoftly]

john_tullamarine,

Thanks for the explanation, much appreciated. :)

[Elevator]

Gents,

For my comments on you very interesting thread, I would like to add that my first 30 or so hours of training was in PA38 Tomahawk and I was very apprehensive of my stalling training.

I trained on 3 various PA38's of which the club's aeroplane was by far the best performer of all.Much more docile and predictable.

I was taught all the normal pre stall buffets etc, clean and power on and had a few wing drops, particularly to the left, although one tended to drop and surprise you.

Remember I'm referring to 3 different aircraft. I'm also in Perth Western Australia. Wind being a cosideration becuase of surrounding hills and thermal updrafts etc;

I found very quickly to make very little movements if at all to the ailerons approaching the stall was certainly the way to go. The rudder was my best friend and I tried to set up the entry and hold everything as straight and still as I could, allowing a little rudder movement to keep the aeroplane straight. Nothing abrubt or to sudden, keeping co ordinated with the ball.

My instructor was the CFI and was tough. He wanted me to hold as long as possible to show me the various phases of the stall and then the recovery.\\ I, to this day do not like stalling, and made my point very clear to him, however I am vigilant to keep away from any manouvre that could bring on a stall, but I do feel comfortable in being able to know that if I correct things now well before the full stall the outcome is much more pleasing, comfortable and safer for all concerned.

The drills although a pain at the time put the pilot in very good stead for what unpredictability may come your way when flying. I can now go up and go to a full stall and not feel to bad about it, but hope to god that wing does not drop.

Thanks again for an intersting thread. :) :rolleyes: :eek:

[BAE employee]

Errrr - can we not get round the problem by being a good enough pilot to avoid stalling the bl00dy thing in the first place? If not, try a career in hairdressing!

Seriously, horses for courses - each aeroplane to it's own technique and big one have stick pushers that avoid the issue (and that is the way it should be).

This post has been edited to ensure that it is totally Non-PC, gratuitously offensive and guaranteed to bring personal abuse raining down on the author.

[djk]

having just got passed that stage in my training, I can see both points of view on this. yes a good pilot shouldn't get to the stage when a stall occurs, but in the case of an inadvertant stall (ie sudden veering or backing of crosswind while turning onto finals from base leg). then it's important that the student pilot knows what it feels like when the plane has stalled and how to correct it with minimal loss in height.

I did have the same problems when I first did a stall with a wing drop, I found it a more or less automatic reaction to try and correct with the ailerons. After scaring myself sh*tless with that, it's now burnt into my memory to never *EVER* do that again :-)

So now I've reached the part in my training where I have to learn to dump the plane on the ground..ermm I mean to land her as smoothly as possible :-)

Derek

[pkn]

Could anybody give me some tip on the best way to improve (claryfying) the stallbehaviour of the C172. My problem is that for the sake of the students the stall is almost invisible, I would like to have a more clear nosedrop and furthermore a vingdrop just to train the recover of both these things.

[Elevator]

PKN..

As discussed above I trainedin a Tomahawk...the aircraft designed by instructors for students. yes a low wing , so it will do the things you are teaching your students to prevent.
I jumped out of the PA38 into a Cessna 152 and the bloody thing would not stall.

It took no power, full stick back and pushing my abdomen into my spine and lots of patience before a stall...then it just hung there...nose down and slowly increase power..1...2....3.and recover.

Hope this helps as you shouldn't even try to stall these a/c. :)

[DesiPilot]

While we are talking about stalls I have a quick question. How come under the JAA PPL the power on stall is not part of the syllabus? It is part of the FAA PPL syllabus.
It is a possible to get into a situation where you could be nose high trim and you are asked to go around (practicing PFL's and trimmed for glide!) and possibly stall the plane.
Any comments?