Female Pilots!

[Echo T]

HIYA !

Just wondering if you know of any Female pilots, Captains, F/O's,

are they treated the same? does it make a difference to the male pilots out there sitting next to a female?

are there many out there?

if you are a female pilot reading this what do you think? are you treated equally in a male dominated environment?



E.T

[Digitalis]

And what exactly is your angle? Sounds suspiciously like a reporter after a 'sexism in the cockpit' story. :suspect:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Well I've flown with quite a few, known more socially, and one one occasion was examined for a licence by a woman pilot - a very well regarded examiner.

I've never known it to be a problem amongst professionals, apart from the occasional (and justified) whinge that many airfields ladies toilet facilities leave something to be desired (they do for men too, but at-least we can usually use a hedge), and on landaway, you can't reasonably save money by sharing a room - which is a problem for the company accountants, not us (personally I'd rather have a room to myself anyway).

Occasionally you get somebody, usually new to aviation (usually either arrogant, male and over 50, or a young woman with an inferiority complex) who has a problem - but they learn quickly enough that age and sex are irrelevant so long as you can pass the medical and fit in the cockpit.

What I can't get my head around is why when women pilots are fairly common these days, lady Engineers are still so rare that when you meet one you tend to mark it in your diary.

G

[redsnail]

I just do my job.

For the vast majority of the time there's absolutely no problem. Very rarely I'll meet someone that has a thing about female pilots. It happens less and less these days.
What is more common is a negative reaction from passengers. Again, that is not 'that' common to make an issue. Far more common is a positive reaction.

What is annoying is the lack of toilet facilities.

[Echo T]

Hey Digitalis,

There is no angle to this, i was just wondering really, i did my dissertation on female pilots and just wanted opinions from you guys and girls! I am certainly no reporter too!!!!

Im a trainee female pilot myself. I havent come across any sexism or discrimination which is excellent. but i have heard of a few cases.

its just good to see that women are coming up in this world and there is no such thing as a mans job and a females job!!!!

society is changing and accepting this.

E.T

[Genghis the Engineer]

Very rarely I'll meet someone that has a thing about female pilots.
Actually, you'll find that many of us have a thing about female pilots, it's just entirely positive and we keep it to social hours :D

G

[iko wapi choo]

Hello,
Yeah, our company has more than a few female pilots, various ages, and avrying amounts of experience (Capts/fO's) and are all very professional people. I can see no problems wether male or female.. each has to go through the same training and the same validations so all are equally well trained and all have great attitudes. I do however recall a recent incident where a female f/o was due to be positioning a leased aircraft home after a flight test. She was not rostered for the test but decided to go along for the ride anyway.... she duly put this down as a duty day without telling crew control. On return to base and awaiting her next duty she kindly informed the office that she had decided to roster herself on the test flight and would be out of hours for her next flight! After many problems and the subsequent flight departing late after trying to find a new f/o she was called into the office for a chat with the chief pilot where she duly burst into tears! The chief, then comforted her and politely asked her not to do it again..... what would have happened if it were a chap.... a abit more of a telling off i can assure you... and probabaly less tears!...... just for the record she's been a pain ever since.. always moaning about something or other, making changes to company manuals and adding copyright marks so we have to ask her permission to use them! All in ops/crewcontrol do hope she will be departing soon................ volountarily or un......

[Echo T]

I agree with you iko wapi choo!

women can put on there water works to get out of things which is wrong! and ure right what if it was a male......

women coming into the industry should be strong and deal with consequences and not take jokes or anything seriously!

I was the only female in my ATPL group and yes men do joke around and take the P*** but i mean u shouldnt take it to heart and let it mess with you.

E.T

[kq777]

I would love to see more women pilots, they make great pilots.

:8 iko wapi choo - sahau choo , endesha ndege :8

[Digitalis]

Echo T I apologise for my scepticism!

[Echo T]

hey Digitalis , Dont worry bout it mate! i would have assumed the same.

E.T

[White Knight]

Having worked for a company that had loads of female pilots, and now working for a company that has none, I have to say I liked flying with the girls (sorry, ladies) as they gave a different perspective on things. All very professional, I think there should be more in aviation :ok: :ok:

[loftustb]

Witnessed something amusing recently "backseating" on a training flight. Middle-aged male instructor and 20-year old very, very attractive female student. We all strapped in and female student decided it was too warm, so removed her jumper to reveal the skimpiest top and loads of bare flesh. She flew well, but if she'd stalled it/spun it/nose-dived it into the ground the instructor would still have been sitting there dribbling and telling her she was wonderful.

Clever girl - she had him wrapped around her little finger and she knew it.

Some things will never change.

[er82]

Well seeing as women hear non-stop about the only reason they pass flying exams etc is because of wearing a skimpy top or black bra under a white shirt, it should be no surprise that some think they might as well!
I've never done such a thing, and am quite happy to say I pass all my exams through such amazing raw talent(!) - it's a skill that we women have!
It's a great job to be in provided you can stick up for yourself and give as good as you get when it comes to sexist jokes etc.

[Lee-a-Roady Moor]

Only problem I've noticed is flying from A to B in 1 hour, but taking 3 hours to park the aircraft..!! :D :D :D

[mutt]

making changes to company manuals and adding copyright marks so we have to ask her permission to use them! If she is paid by the company, i believe that the company holds the copyright and not the employee.

Around here we have 1600 pilots and the male/female ratio is 100/0. Thats right, not one female pilot!

Mutt.

PS i should also add that women arent allowed to drive cars around here. :):):)

[hifive11]

Lee

Your only problem (you notice) is that it takes you one hour to get from A - B but three to park the aircraft? Perhaps some more parking lessons are required - or even, how is your reverse parking !! :) :) :)

Hi5

PS Mutt - no women drivers? How do you pass the time of day when there are no really talented drivers to watch

[er82]

Mutt - ok, so you probably can't say on here, but would be interested to know where you work, then I can get my CV in!!!

Oh, and as far as parking goes, if it takes 3 hrs, just be thankful there aren't reverse parking spaces! Then you'd be in trouble!

[witchdoctor]

I've only met a few female pilots (all captains) at work so far, and I am pleased to say that they have been a pleasure to work with - unfailingly poilte and professional. Most of the guys are too, but there does seem to be a greater propensity for ####holes and plonkers in the male gene pool.

Of all the female student pilots I met during training, I would have to say the same. A good bunch of folks, with whom I'd be more than happy to fly. Only one oddball I can think of (not er82 though - how are you old girl?), but even then, not really that bad. Once again, all the plonkers were blokes.

[er82]

Watch it with the old! I'm far from it! Still young and fresh faced!! You've got me guessing who you are though?? PM me!

[zerozero]

My philosophy is, everyone is an individual. I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

I've flown with men who shouldn't be within 10 miles of any airport and I've flown with women who, likewise, should never be in charge of an airplane.

So when I fly with women (and men) everyone gets the same greeting until they prove they don't deserve it.

The only problem I've had with women at work is when they constantly make their gender the central issue everyday.

In other words if her professional identity is "Pilot" first and "Woman" second then she'll do fine because for the most part guys are willing to think of her as just one of the guys.

Now if being considered one of the guys (jokes, cussing, etc) makes her uncomfortable and she brings it up over and over and over...you know, that she's a woman and she doesn't appreciate the jokes or the cussing or we should carry her bags and open doors, etc...well, now there are gonna be problems.

When guys are at work we can be very task oriented. That means we don't want to watch every word. We want to get the job done and having a co-worker who is a team-player is a great asset and a lot of fun.

[er82]

Too right! I love nothing better than being surrounded by men and being classed as one of the guys! Love a dirty joke, and love all the banter that goes with it. And it's even nicer when at the end of the day, at the bar, they all looked totally shocked when I get my legs out of that nasty uniform and wear a skirt! It's great when male colleagues seem to 'forget' there is a difference between us. Which, of course, there isn't really when it comes to flying.
I get fed up with women who play on the fact that they have two 'assets' that make men go weak. Gives the rest of us a bad name - and makes our assets totally useless in times when they are needed most!

[hifive11]

er82

I agree with you 100%.

Hi5 :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Echo T]

I agree with u er82 !

i too enjoy being surrounded by men!!! you can have a good laugh with them! my lads that i trained with were great i was like one of them we joked around they took the p*** but i was not offended i laughed with them! joined in too!!!!!!

i agree women using their assets DEFINATELY GIVES US A BAD NAME! and oh yes!!!! changing ure dress sense from what u normally wear with make up and the full works normally DOES SHOCK EM'.

E.T

[Genghis the Engineer]

Mind you poor spelling and grammar shows you up long before they meet you face to face:rolleyes:

G

[er82]

Poor spelling and grammar would indeed give a bad impression, but that equally applies to men. But of course our neat fancy handwriting would detract from any mistakes, whereas messy boy-writing would only make it look even worse!

:p

[Genghis the Engineer]

Actually handwriting (however neat) probably indicates that you haven't got the hang of a wordprocessor yet, which may not be the impression that you wish to give, particularly if seeking a job on a modern jet full of computers.

Mind you, I've heard some women executives say that they'll never admit to knowing how to type, since this might suggest that they used to be a secretary. Strange class-conscious world that we live in isn't it.

G

[hifive11]

I think that we probably have the best of both worlds, neat fancy hand writing and fantastically laid out and beautifully presented documents courtesy of the word processor. So we, as women are totally adaptable to all forms of calligraphy, manual or electronic.

That is apart from myself. I do have to admit to my handwriting being almost illegible so thanks be for word processors :ok:

[Clear_Prop]

women are totally adaptable to all forms of calligraphy, manual or electronic.

Careful! You might wake up all the cheauvanists with a remark like that. ;)

[bigflyingrob]

I have only met a few and they tended to be either excellent or awful, never in between. The good ones got to the top by being good. Sadly a small minority were awful but could scream the place down at the first wisper of criticism. management ran a mile and they got what they wanted. Pity as they poisoned the well for the others.

[Genghis the Engineer]

There are men like that, they are usually trades union convenors.

G

[northwing]

All pilots should be women. Same brain, two thirds of the weight. Hence unassailable aerodymanic logic.

[Lee-a-Roady Moor]

Anyone know how to get this dam thing to go backwards........:D

[BlueDiamond]

It's a little disheartening to see that the question of gender in flying is still an issue.

If it were not, it would never have occurred to Echo T to even ask the question.

[Echo T]

Emmmmmmmmmmmm..................... BLUEDIAMOND[B] i dont think its an issue well i certainly hope not! i just wanted to find out whether you guys and girls had an opinion about this

i did my dissertation at uni on FEMALE PILOTS and i just wanted an opinion from the real girls and guys on what they thought!.

hope it hasnt offended anyone

E.T

[hifive11]

Echo T

Some informative replies with a bit of banter thrown in - just how it should be.

I can't believe anyone has taken offence

hi5 :D :D :D

[BlueDiamond]

I can't see that anyone has taken offence, hifive. However, it is certainly a surprise to me to discover that it is actually enough of an issue that anyone would need to ask the question. I thought female pilots were as much an everyday occurence as female typists or doctors ... and it's not really all that long ago that it was considered that women could do neither job.

If you asked today for an opinion about women in either of those occupations, people would wonder what on earth you were talking about. And that, to my mind, is how it should be. For as long as people raise questions about a subject, it will always be an issue and divisiveness, however subtle, will continue to be promoted.

[Polly Gnome]

To answer Genghis's previous note about women refusing to admit they could type - it's to save them extra work.

One woman I know (a trade unionist) would never LEARN to type because she said she would always be expected to take the minutes of meetings and deal with correspondence if she did (even though typing would save her time). I also know of a single man in a team of women who never had to take minutes and type them up because he was the only one who couldn't type.

(I'm sorry - slight thread creep)

To answer the original post, although a PPL, I've flown with some VERY experienced professional pilots and not one of them had a problem with female pilots. However, one did make a comment about women knowing left and right - but it was said as a statement of fact about a minor point, not a criticism. He felt women were no different to fly with than men.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Blue diamondYou could equally make a point however about male nurses, midwives and secretaries. On the whole however, that probably belongs in jetblast.

G

[BlueDiamond]

I'm not expressing myself very well here, Genghis. The point I want to make is that for as long as people percieve that there are differences, then that attitude (that differences exist) is fostered and promoted.

The underlining suggestion throughout this thread has been that this is a case of women doing a men's job. The question was then asked about how they were treated as a result of that. The implication there is clear and we do not often hear people asking of male pilots how they are treated by female crew.

One contributor even went so far as to say that she was pleased to be considered "one of the guys" making it fairly clear that she considered herself to be an occupant of their territory. I think that comment came from er82 and this, to my mind, gave credence to an earlier comment by zerozero ...

In other words if her professional identity is "Pilot" first and "Woman" second then she'll do fine because for the most part guys are willing to think of her as just one of the guys.

The opinion seeming to be that it is up to the male pilots to accept or reject the female ones, that it is their prerogative to decide how the women pilots will be treated. We do not hear men proclaiming with pride that they are happy to be considered "one of the girls." It surprises me how many women continue to cooperate in promoting this attitude and it surprises me absolutely that this sort of thing is alive and well amongst aviation professionals.

Blue diamondYou could equally make a point however about male nurses, midwives and secretaries. On the whole however, that probably belongs in jetblast.

Having read through what I wrote, Genghis, I am not certain how you arrived at the conclusion that I was making a point in the way you think. The point I was making is that nobody passes comment any more about men or women in such professions and I would like to see that same acceptance for women pilots ... where it is so normal, so usual, that it would not occur to anyone to ask, "Are you treated differently" a question which, in itself, implies that it is up to the men to determine the behaviour and the womens part to be subject to it.

[hifive11]

Bluediamond

I thought female pilots were as much an everyday occurence as female typists or doctors ... and it's not really all that long ago that it was considered that women could do neither job.
Therein lies the problem. I am not sure what the percentage is male/female but currently it is most definitely in favour of the male. Female pilots are not such an everyday occurence yet and may not be for a long time. At the moment the flight deck is very much a male dominated area.

Whilst training I was one of two females amongst a class of fourteen. Consequenly, out of choice I became 'one of the boys' in order to get the best out of the course and co-operation of my colleagues. It was not a problem for me, that is just the way things are at the moment. When the guys were in the bar discussing the flying day, I didn't sit in my room doing my nails, what benefit would that have been to my study, I joined in with them and the aviation discussions and odd drink or two. It is the numbers game. We all supported each other through the good and bad times and got on fine, we were just all students together. The male/female 'thing' was never raised - in this context!

There are however, women who may use their feminine ploys to get on.

Up until now, although I admit I haven't reached the flight deck of a commercial airliner, I have had absolutely no problem with my male colleagues and have only been treated with professional courtesly and respect and I think in this day and age, apart from maybe the odd few males that is how I expect it will go on. I don't look on it as a woman doing a man's job, it is just a job but at the moment we are still very much outnumbered and we are still breaking into their territory.

The point I was making is that nobody passes comment any more about men or women in such professions and I would like to see that same acceptance for women pilots
In the main I think we are accepted as (women) pilots judging from most of the posts both here and in other forums.

However, in my expereince a glazed look seems to come over the eyes of non aviation people when I tell them I am a commercial pilot but that is a different matter.

hi5 :)

[Genghis the Engineer]

Actually Bluediamond that was pretty much the point that I thought you were making. It happens however to be my personal prejudice that anything with a totally non-aviation content on Pprune, belongs on Jetblast (which includes, I'd suggest, careers in nursing). That I probably didn't make at-all clear.

Incidentally, if anybody wants to make a big thing about the lack of women in Engineering, they'll have my full moral support - mostly because presumably some good women Engineers near the top, should force off the bottom a few male jobsworths that personally I'd love to see the back of from our industry.

G

[747 Downwind]

Interesting and informed debate:

'The Captain knocks on your door during a stop-over and is wearing a skirt, how do you react?'

The classic interview question where the lateral thought process suggests that they expect you to say something like.... 'I would offer to buy her a drink at the bar :E '

I have used this question on many non-aviation related people (inc. many females) and not one of them even considered the possibility that the commander was a female.. I point well noted in this debate. But lets not be too harsh on those on the outside, CAA statistics to my knowledge suggest that approx. 98% of commercial licence holders are male, and from my experience both at training colleges and within the industry that is probably a fair estimate.

However, more women do appear to be entering the industry... to be quite honest I am not very P.C and I couldn't give a monkeys.. If a women can do the job then fine, I she can't.. send her packing. This is a professional industry and we can't be assessing the gendered divide within the cockpit as a focal point. The issue is skill: If a female commander would get me to an en-route alternate in one piece after an emergency, but the male pilot may not, then I know I would rather be next to the women.. We need the best standards in aircrew irrespective of ANY divide!

It is true that maybe this profession shouldn't be considered as 'male', but the fact remains that at the moment it is.. and maybe that will change. There are still jobs that are considered as 'male' and these usually involve physical activity. The Navy and Army have about 70% of their jobs open to women but that climbs to 96% in the Air Force. This suggests that women ARE accepted as pilots on a equal level to their male counterparts. Flying is NOT physically demanding (in terms of brut strength) and this is why women can do the job to an equal ability.

However, Royal Marines, Paras, submariners, SAS/SBS etc will always be all male professions and rightfully so. To those young women aspiring to become aviators: there are sadly a few who do it to prove a point:* .... But to those who do it for the love of the industry I wish you all the best success:ok:

[Leprechaun]

I have trained and flown with female aircrew from all three services and I can honestly say that it's never been an issue. yes you do occasionally get the weepy girl as mentioned earlier but I've seen the odd weepy boy as well.
At the end of the day you are going to get boys and girls who are good at their job, good on a squadron, and good craic in the bar. And you are going to get boys and girls who aren't.
As far a flashing "assets" around goes.... when you put on a goon bag and a bone dome your mother couldn't pick you out of a crowd so their is little issue of girls looking feminine or boys looking butch when we all look like Helitubbies:D :D

[hifive11]

747

Couldn't resist it, only 'young' women? what about the rest?

A pretty expensive way of proving a point, I don't think many women will have that luxury!!!!!!!

hi5

[Genghis the Engineer]

'The Captain knocks on your door during a stop-over and is wearing a skirt, how do you react?'

Depends upon whether they are...

(a) Female
(b) Male and Scottish
(c) Male, not Scottish.


Out of interest, why should the RN have female surface ship crews and not female submariners? I can't see that one myself - it's either a problem on board ship or it isn't. I can see why a mixed sex crew might be a problem on board a small vessel, but then you just have male or female crews.

G

[BlueDiamond]

It happens however to be my personal prejudice that anything with a totally non-aviation content on Pprune, belongs on Jetblast (which includes, I'd suggest, careers in nursing). That I probably didn't make at-all clear.

No, you did make it clear, Genghis, but my response was not about those professions, they were simply quoted as examples for comparison. I could just have easily have used cabin crew or ticketing staff instead but didn't think of it at the time.

To be fair though, you too have used examples from outside the aviation industry by quoting the Royal Navy and submarine crewing situation to illustrate your own point.

Something that might make you smile ... I do know a female engineer who actually has a Doctorate in that subject. (She is in Civil Engineering though, not aviation.)

[Heatseeker]

I really wonder whether this is a topic that is worthy of any comment at all. Whenever I brief a crew at the counter they are simply that - the crew. Whether male or female dosn't really have any bearing on the fact that they are all pilots who simply fly our planes from A to B and, apart from the very early days a decade or so ago, gender has never been an issue. One gender thing that does impress me though is the number of the ladies at skippyjet airlines who seem to be very successful at both motherhood and and running their carreers. Having said that, my hats off too to all the male pilots who manage fatherhood and their carreers. You all impress me equally.

Heat :ok:

[AntiCrash]

In my past life as D.O. for a 125 hauling the Wall Street Journal around the U.S. and as well as a little freight out of FLL around the Caribbean and Bahamas, in CV, 3's, 4's, & 6,s.

We had two female FE's one super based at STL and one total trainwreck at FLL. We also had 4 female pilots. Two great, with one to saving the CV440 (on fire!) while the captain screwed the pooch and two not so good. I'd say they were pretty much on par with their male crewmates. That was 15 years ago when I think the product coming out of the flight schools was vastly superior to most of the graduates I encounter now. Almost anyone can be taught to pilot a plane but there are only some of either sex that make a good manager" Captain".

[747 Downwind]

Hifive 11: Good point!!!

But again it stems to experiences... I have never met an 'older' women aspiring to fly, the older wannabes were ALL male and the wnnabe females were 'Young'. I do apologise to any 'older' aspiring female aviators and wish them all the very same luck and hope they succeed.. maybe your one yourself hi5;)

It is an expensive way of proving a point and as I said: 'a few who do it to prove a point..' as you have substantiated with : 'I don't think many women will have that luxury.'

There you go we're in agreance:p


Genghis the Engineer:

Of course they could be Scottish or from another Celtic decent, they could be a cross-dresser, they COULD be anything.. but that isn't what the airlines are getting at and that was my point in relation to the gendered poitics of a modern flightdeck.

With respect to the RN's policy on all male submarine crews.. that is there concern and as professionals they have made the right decision for what ever reason.. I too am perplexed as to why it is acceptable on surface vessels and not on submarines, but I am sure they have a good reason.

[hifive11]

747

I have to admit that I haven't met one and I am not one either, although some 15 year olds might think I am.

Yes, I see, we do agree, that's good

hi5 :D

[Flap 5]

An interesting topic which is always in danger of being hijacked by the politically correct. I have found you get all types whether they be male or female. Maybe the bad female ones stand out more because us blokes are all too willing to look for their bad points. And maybe the bad ones allow their good points (assets) to stand out rather too well!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Is it perhaps that because females in some professions are a relative rarity and therefore tend to be noticed, the good ones look very good, and the bad ones look truly awful?

G