Your first week?

[FlyingForFun]

Hi,

I'm just curious to hear from some of you guys what your first week of instructing was like? As you know if you've been following my recent posts, I started my first instruting job a week ago, and I'm interested in comparing my experiences to those of others. How many hours did you fly? Was it a variety of lessons, or was it all trial lessons? Any particular highs or lows?

I'll add a report of my own first week once there are a few replies here!

FFF
-------------

[kpx1124]

Ah, the first week of the job, well done for getting through it FFF!

As seems to be the norm, my first week consisted mainly of trial lessons. However, I did get to do a dual check with a chap who needed to be re-taught PFLs. It certainly feels good when you're able to impart some of your freshly learnt knowledge and see some improvement in the student.

I think I flew about 10 hours in total...

KpX

[whatunion]

in my first week i had to work out how to get back to the airfield with a 300 feet cloud base withoiut having any real cloud experience and no radar to assist!

[BigEndBob]

First day, first flight trial lesson.
Big bang at the rear of my Cessna.
After landing two dents in tail fin leading edge under the adf sense aerial.
Only explanation a bird strike!

[FlyingForFun]

Bob, gulp!!!

Whatunion, helpful as ever.... I'm sure your reply is truthful, but I doubt it's typical!

KpX, that's exactly the kind of reply I'm looking for.

So, my first week.... I logged 30 minutes. Yes, that's correct, one 30-minute trial lesson, and that was it. Other than that, I had to come into the airfield on two other days, when I did no instructing at all but was able to sit in the back seat for a couple of lessons, and every other day I was told I was not required. The CFI did at least have the decency to offer to cover my petrol and lunch costs for the three days I was at the airfield, though...

My second week got off to a good start when I found myself with three trial lessons, each 1 hour long, on the Saturday. But when I arrived at the airfield I found that one of those had been re-assigned to another instructor. As it turned out, the other instructor was running late, so I ended up doing all three trial lessons anyway, though.... my first (and only) full day of flying.

On the Sunday (yesterday), I was schedule to fly another trial lesson, and then do a checkout with a prospective renter. But by the end of Saturday, the schedule had been changed, and both flights had been assigned to other instructors, leaving me with no flying. And again today, no flying. In fact, I'm convinced that the only reason I flew on Saturday was because one of my students was my girlfriend, who would only fly with me, so they had no choice but to get me to come in.

The reasons given for the lack of flying are that bookings are inexplicably light at the moment. We have a couple of aircraft out for maintenance, but even those aircraft which are left aren't fully booked. Some students (apparently) have chosen to stay away while their aircraft are being serviced rather than fly another aircraft, and will, of course, return when the aircraft are back on-line. In the mean time, one instructor is about to go on holiday for a month (that's what everyone tells me except the instructor in question, who swears he's only on holiday for two weeks), and two other instructors are applying to the airlines so they are "bound to be moving on soon", which is why I've been employed....

Unfortunately, I can't afford to live on air - I don't expect a full schedule on my first day, but I do need to earn enough to live on, and I can't see any sign of my bookings increasing very much in the near future. I've spoken to instructors at my local airfield, who say that anything less than 4 hours a day, especially at weekends, is simply not normal this time of year. My old PPL/IMC instructor is currently struggling to not become fatigued - she's being asked to fly 6 hours a day, and having to tell her CFI that she can't do it.

KpX seems to confirm that my experiences are not normal. My two-week "trial period" ends on Friday, and I have to be honest when I say it would not surprise me if I do not get any more instructing time between now and then. Am I correct in thinking that I should be looking for a new job? What would you do?

FFF
--------------

PS - If anyone knows of a full-time job going anywhere, please let me know... I'll be happy to re-locate to anywhere in the UK, and would consider jobs abroad too!

[average bloke]

Just finished my first week also. Managed to complete several trial lessons, start 2 new students with lesson 4, carried out a proficiency check with a private owner and a check out for myself on a different type. The attitude of the club is to help new instructors get students, rather than leave them to pick up the crumbs.

Cannot advise where you might find another position, but your experience does not sound too good so far...:ugh:

Hope things improve for you.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Unfortunately FFF it does take time to build up a decent body of your own students. Instructors who've been there longer will get more flying simply because they are more of a known quantity than you are currently.

Give it a few weeks and make sure you do the weekends and lots of trial lessons. This is where you'll meet the majority of prospective PPL students and once they've flown with you thet'll be loath to move to others. (Not blowing sunshine up your a*se, student loyalty can be a strange thing!)

Where are you teaching?
Good luck, don't get too despondant it will pick up pretty soon. Be optimistic and friendly to all who come into the club. Most of all however, be available and you will get more students than you can handle soon enough!

[Obs cop]

I think SAS has hit the nail on the head.

Most students are loyal to their instructors and with this in mind, the bulk of an instructors work comes from students returning from trial lessons for more. It may be that the trial lessons you flew will come to fruition, but it may also take some time.

Stick in there, but it is a fool who looks no further than his current lot.

Good luck

Regards

Obs cop

[FlyingForFun]

Hmm, ok so the early advice seems to be to stick it out.

S.A.S, you say: "make sure you do the weekends and lots of trial lessons". But as I said, I was asked not to bother going in on Sunday because there was no work for me.

The school, since you ask, S.A.S, is FlyTeam. They prefer to get their students to fly with all of the instructors, rather than assign one instructor to each student.... at least that's what they tell me. In practice, it seems that students can be assigned to any instructor except me! I have to admit that I'm not convinced that flying with many instructors is such a good idea, though, even if it did work that way.... as you say, students tend to be loyal to their instructors - I know I always have been, as have most others I've spoken to.

Thanks for the input, Obs and S.A.S - I will take your comments on board. I hope you are correct, and that my work will pick up - because I can't afford to live on £6 a week!

Anyone else got any thoughts?

FFF
-------------

[Snigs]

FFF, if it's not too far to drive, go in on the days you're not rostered to fly anyway. Help out all you can (refuelling the a/c etc). I've done a few unscheduled TL's and the like when the CFI was knackered or had something else to do.

It shows willing and gets you known, after all two weeks isn't a lot of time for people to get to know you, and you've only been there a few of the days anyway.

[Vortex Thing]

Stop whinning and wait it will work. My first month gave me 11hrs. This progressed and now I may manage 25 hrs a week. A 14 hour day 6 days a week is the norm for many and the fact that you would earn more in McDonalds is fairly irrelevant.

Assuming you're doing the instructing bit to gain hours you must accept that the hardship you endure now is worth the long term gain but that doesnt mean that you can't enjoy it.

Over half of those I met instructing had left salaries in excess of 30k to go full time knowing that if they were lucky they may take home 8k. Just accept that you are not going to get a living wage get a credit card, loan, sell granny. Whatever it takes just make sure that you have access to enough money to pay for the petrol to get to work and b4 you know it your 2 yr sentence should be about served and you will find you have 1000hrs more than you started with maybe then is the time to whinge a bit but for now just accept unless you are extremely lucky you are going to have to live with no income for the next few years until you find a school which pays more than 15/20 per hr or you are just gonna have to give up until you can afford it like we all did.

Snigs is right just turn up every day and hope you get more, you will eventually or you will starve at the airfield.

Any instructors out there who feel that this ain't the truth would love to hear from you.

[kpx1124]

Stick at it FFF,

My second week saw me flying much less than my first - If you can get those trial lessons you will eventually end up with a collection of your own students.

The scene does seem to be rather quiet at the moment, I only flew twice over the weekend - the phone barely rang and the club was virtually empty. Let's hope things pick up soon :sad:

Just remember, the money might not be great, but you do now get paid to go flying rather than having to pay for the privilege yourself - isn't that what being a commercial pilot is all about?

KpX

[Big Haboobs]

FFF

Our school is dead at the moment. We reckon it's the effect of the European Championships. Hardly anyone in at the weekend.
Fingers crossed for the next fortnight.
BH

[FlyingForFun]

Ok, whining over. It seems pretty clear that, although a small minority of instructors enjoy a reasonable amount of flying right from the start, most of us have early experiences which are quite similar to mine, and a generally quiet period has added to this.

I will follow the advice of the majority and stick it out where I am for a while longer.

FFF
------------

[charlie-india-mike]

FFF

How was your second week then?

C-I-M

[Andy_R]

FFF

check your PM's

hope it works out for you

[mad_jock]

Stick with it.

Also I would say get in there as much as you can you never know when something will turn up.

The trick is to get your trial flights good. Especially if its a young wannabie. Include there parents, take time to answer questions.
Trial flights are your way of selling yourself to the student. And don't be afriad to give them a hint like I would luv to be your instructor but company says .... But i am sure as a customer you could insist.

When I left my full time FI postion I instructed mainly to keep current so all I did was trial flights and apart from a few problem cases which needed an new sense of humour thats all i did. Problem was after about 3 weekends I had nearly 3 ppl's wanting me as an instructor which i didn't want to do.

So keep the trial flights fun don't go for huge briefs ( I must admit I virtually gave up on them for Trial flights apart from the safety equipment) they stop listening in about the time you have asked them where they want to go. Let them do as much as is safe inside your safety envelope. I think my record was 16 trial flights in a row without touching the controls. You can sell a PPL just by letting them do the landing. It dosn't have to be pretty just the plane in one piece. And don't correct everything and talk at them all the time, as long as your not about to die or bust some airspace let them wander and generally make an arse of it.

MJ

[FlyingForFun]

How was your second week then?Uh oh - I've got people following my progress now! I didn't intend that to happen, I was just after (and got) some friendly advice, but I should have known.... Since you ask, CIM, I have done no instructing at all since I last posted. I have not been called into the airfield at all until today. I have followed the advice on here and showed my face around the office, but this hasn't resulted in any extra flying. (Doesn't help that, in this case, the office is at one place and the school at the other. There's very little point turning up at the school unannounced, because the door will be locked unless someone happens to be inside briefing or waiting for a student, so I have done what I can to be around and available.)

Today, I don't want to go into too much detail on a public forum, but I was booked in for a rather inspiring 4 hours. The first of these was my girlfriend, who has decided to come back for more after her trial lesson last week. The other three were each trial lessons. (I have to wonder, yet again, why it is that the only days I'm asked to come in to fly happen to be those days when my girlfriend is paying to fly with me... but never mind.) Obviously with the weather forecast predicting rain for this afternoon, I didn't expect to get all 4 hours done, but it turned out that because of some administrative problems there was no aircraft for me. Since neither me nor my student/girlfriend were told about this until we arrived at the airfield, we made the journey up to Cranfield, were fortunate to find someone with a key (since the office had also neglected to tell any of the other instructors that I would be going in to the fly the aircraft which wasn't there) and briefed for Effect of Controls Part 1, but didn't actually go flying. I did manage to get myself checked out on the Archer, though, but since that was the only single-engined aircraft available today, and it was fully booked, there wasn't any extra scope for me to do any of my lessons (which were all booked for a C150) on the Archer. I stuck around a bit until the weather started to close in, and then went home.

I am still hopeful that things will pick up, but no sign of it yet! In the mean time, though, I do appreciate all the advice and support of you guys - thanks!

FFF
------------

[mad_jock]

Unfortunaly I think you CFI is at it.

With all your time off i would go looking for something else. He is trying to cover his backside in case any of his other instructors get a job.

MJ

[charlie-india-mike]

mad_jock

From what I know of the guy you are spot on there.

C-I-M

[mad_jock]

Bastards its no wonder FI's will bugga off at the drop of a hat.

****e wages
Treated like ****e.
No backup.
Hassels.
Shafted without any warning.

And thats for the peeps who really love the job.

Stick with it FFF. By the sounds of it you need to watch your back with this CFI.

Welcome to the brutal world of instructing.

MJ

[Number Cruncher]

Your story sounds very demoralising FFF. OK, maybe that wasn't the intention of your original post, but as a wannabe reading this it really does put me off....

Hope things pick up for you.

[Mr Magoo]

Look on the bright side pal - if they're quiet at least the number of crashes there are reduced!, (was it 3 in the last 18 months or so?) :rolleyes:

[18greens]

FFF I think as people say it starts slow but builds up. Eventually you convert trial lessons into students (the rule at our club seems to be about 1 in 20). Everyone then selects their favourite weekly slot 8.00am saturday, 4pm sunday or whatever then they get upset when you take timeoff.

The other thing is, within a year you will be the old hand because everyone else will have Jet jobs. But by then you will have hundreds of hours and will be looking for that job yourself because no-one can live on these wages.

I would also keep applyingto the bigger schools. if you are in a place you can hang around you get a lot of walkins. You also pickup a lot of trips from the high hour guys who cant be bothered to wait all day for the 4.00 trip so they give it to you and take the day off. I've often gone in with an empty book and ended up flying 5 trips

BTW how can you teach your girlfriend to fly. I can only imagine that to be a perfect recipie for domestic strife.

Good luck

[hasell]

Hi FFF,
When you were looking for your FI job, were there no vacanicies for FI's at EGLM?

[FlyingForFun]

No Hasell. That was, of course, the first place I asked! I still pop in there regularly, either to fly or to pass the time, and always check up on whether any of their instructors are moving on, but it seems those who are looking for airline jobs from EGLM aren't having much success right now, which means there's no room for me.

FFF
--------------

[hasell]

Hi FFF,
Hmm... my instructor left. Back in March/April for commercial work.

Then reading the recent newsletter from the club (got this yesterday through the post). WLAC mention that two new instructors have joined, one being part-time. I flew with one of the new ones in May as part of my checkout.

Hope things pick up for you FFF.

Regards.

Has.

[Whirlybird]

FFF,

I'll keep my ear to the ground for you.

If it's any consolation, and I'm sure it isn't, my first YEAR helicopter instructing has been a bit like your first week. Luckily I have other work and don't mind too much. And...just been to another school, and looks like things might pick up. :ok: So never give up.

[hugh flung_dung]

FFF
It's not the same everywhere, try looking around.
It will help if you can differentiate yourself in some way. When I started (I came from a background of gliding instruction so it may have been an easier transition) I went straight for the aerobatic instructor ticket and "specialised" largely in aeros for a while, then tailwheel and ME. You need something to make yourself look attractive (some people need more than others:E)
Stick with it but consider your options, life's too short to spend very much of it feeling miserable. Another consideration: you can have 1 months experience three times or you can have 3 months experience.
HFD

[pilotbear]

If you can find another job I would advise it, you will get ripped off where you are...your CFI is the most dishonest person I have come across in all of my experience in aviation. He will promise everything but give nothing. Sooner or later he will find some fault with you that will make you grateful for the chance he is giving you. He owes money everywhere, including myself. Do not travel from TR to TC unless you have definately got some work for the day. Not to mention the two accidents in the last year or so.:mad:
If it costs you money to go to work don't go. There are other schools you just have to sit on the phone.
PS the 'Archer' is a cherokee 180.

[FlyingForFun]

Thanks, once again, to all those who have offered advice and support either on this thread or in private messages. I have now left FlyTeam, and have found myself another job, which I start in a couple of weeks. My new school has more aircraft available for basic training than FlyTeam, fewer instructors, and a fuller booking sheet. What's more, they also pay a daily allowance, which should at least cover my rent, if nothing else, if I don't fly at all due to weather or lack of bookings or any other reason, which I didn't get at FlyTeam. I am feeling very positive about this new opportunity, and looking forward to starting.

I thought some PPRuNers might be interested in the story of what happened when I told my current boss that I was quitting. It started off very pleasantly. He was upset that I was leaving just as the aircraft were coming back on-line and bookings picking up - he told me that I had a full weekend booked (the full weekend, from looking at the booking sheet, appeared to be about 2 hours each day) and that if I had stuck around things would soon have picked up, but he thanked me for letting him know.

Then we came to the subject of money. I had previously invoiced him for £116, which is what I'd earned in the 4 weeks I'd been working for him. He asked if I'd like to offset that against what I owed him for my checkouts. I was a little surprised at that, but he was adamant that I had agreed with him that I would pay for my own checkouts.

I had actually done two checkouts at the school, one on the C150 and another on the PA28-180. When he got his calculator out, he figured out that I owed him £191. That means that, after having been with the school for 4 weeks, I had made a net loss of £75.

Some heated words were exchanged at this point. I haven't heard of a school charging its instructors for a checkout before (I know of at least three other schools which certainly don't do this), and no mention had been made of it until I said I was leaving. I know the subject of instructing for free gets discussed from time to time on this forum, but I was being asked to actually pay my school in order to instruct for them!

Of course because there was no written contract at this point, neither of us had any way of backing up our arguments, and I was getting ready to walk out the door and write off the £116 which I was owed as a bad debt. But then the boss relented and agreed that he wouldn't charge me for my checkouts, and he would even pay me for the flying I'd done. However, he had previously agreed to pay me a minimum daily amount for those days when I was in the office but flew for less than around 2 hours - but he now refused to pay that minimum daily amount, and would only pay me for the actual flying time I'd done.

As I said, I was almost ready to walk out with nothing, so when he offered to settle up for my flying time I said yes. Maybe that was a bad move - there were so few days where I'd earned more than the minimum daily amount (just one, in fact) that what he was offering was considerably less than what he actually owed me. But I figured I ought to take what was on offer before he changed his mind. I left with a cheque for £42 - that's £10.50 for each week I worked for him. Possibly even worse than that is that we parted on a bad note, which was never my intention. I generally don't make too many enemies in life, and had certainly not intended to do so at FlyTeam, but the choice was either that, or to pay them for working for them.

This happened a few days ago, and I have taken a bit of time to cool down. But now that I am not so emotional about the incident any more, I'm actually quite glad it's happened, because it has, to me, at least, completely justified my decision to leave and find somewhere else to instruct. My new school is 250 miles away from home, and I will need to find a new place to live, and to leave my family and my girlfriend in London. This was obviously not an easy decision, but as a result of what has happened at FlyTeam I am absolutely convinced that it was the right decision.

A final note for anyone who has read my account and been put off instructing by it - please don't be. I honestly believe that the majority of schools and individuals out there are honest, and that it is only a small number of bad apples that you need to look out for. Whilst I was getting no or very little work at FlyTeam, I had a call from another school who needed me to cover for a sick instructor for a couple of days. After checking with my boss that he didn't need me for those days, and would not be able to give me as much work as the other school, I agreed. Everyone at this school was friendly and helpful, getting me checked out and up-to-speed on a type that I hadn't flown before, helping me find my way around the office, going over student records with me so that I knew exactly what I was supposed to be doing, helping me find my way around the local area when a trial lesson wanted to overfly somewhere I hadn't heard of, and, at the end of the two days, paying me exactly the amount of money that was due, in cash, without any further hassle. What's more, I logged nearly three times as much instructing time in two days at this school as I had in four weeks at FlyTeam! From what I see at other schools, I am sure (and I hope that others will back me up) that this is a far more common scenario, and I hope that my bad experience doesn't put anyone off what I'm sure is a rewarding career.

FFF
--------------

[FNG]

One of the virtues of employment law is that it leads to an improvement in employment standards: the general standards of employee treatment in offices, shops and factories are far better now than they were 30 years ago, and this is partly attributable to the desire of employers to avoid tribunal claims. Flying schools appear to lie far outside the norm on this. One or more of you junior instructors really needs to send a message out by suing one of these outfits. The working time and minimum wage regulations might afford a means of doing this. FFF, note also that a deduction from pay is generally unlawful if not agreed in writing.

People may reply "We won't get another job if we sue a flying school", but that attitude helps to perpetuate the abuses. AOPA could earn some brownie points by campaigning on this issue and/or by funding a case or two. Or maybe join the T & G.

[Whirlybird]

FNG,

I think the problem is that most flying instructors are classed as self-employed.

FFF,

Good luck with the new job, sounds far better. :ok: Where is it?

[FNG]

It is doubtful that flying instructors retained by schools are really self employed, even if classed as such by the school (or even by the Revenue). The description given to a working arrangement by the parties thereto is not conclusive of its legal status. Employment Tribunals are used to seeing through the description attached to a relationship and will find it to be one of employment if that is in reality what it is.

In addition, the working time and minimum wage legislation uses the European concept of a "worker", which is not limited to those traditionally classed as employees. The concept covers, for example, freelance peripatetic music teachers, even though they are ostensibly self employed, and could well apply to some flying instructors.

I would be prepared, in a suitable case, to act pro bono for a deserving instructor owed money by a school.

[Andy_R]

Well done for the courageous move FFF and the best of luck in your new position. Maybe you could keep us updated with a thread "Your first week? Second time round!"

You seem to be someone who is able to offer a lot of enthusiasm to their chosen school and deserve a lucky break - let's hope this is it.

GOOD LUCK

[charlie-india-mike]

Oh Dear

Why does FFF's experience come as no real suprise to me. The way this guy treats people is getting worse. It's not only his employees that get treated this way but sometimes his customers as well. As a ex customer of the organisation I have experienced this first hand from the man.

C-I-M

[The mole]

FFF

I think you did well to walk out with any money! I left a flying school at Cranfield a few years ago, and the owner went through the phone bill and deducted personal calls from what he owed me. He also held back money from me for people who owed him money from when I had flown with them, despite the fact that I was the only instructor there on weekdays, I wrote all the invoices, answered the phone, booked the aircraft, flew them for maintenance as reqd, briefed the students, took the flak from voucher holders who were trying to fly 6 months and one day after buying a voucher,and spent 12 to 14 hours a day working for him - all for £12 ph flight pay. Thinking about it he was a right C**t.

Ps it wasn't flyteam, who in my time there were generally well regarded


Moley

[FNG]

Abuses of that kind will continue until you guys stand up to these people. Complaining on websites is unlikely to effect change. My offer above remains open. Pro bono means free, by the way.

[FlyingForFun]

FNG, That's a very kind offer, and if there was more money involved I would have considered taking you up on it. As it is, I am owed £74, and I value my spare time highly enough that I suspect the effort I would have to put in to getting such a small sum of money wouldn't be worth it.

As CIM says, many customers are treated less-than-ideally (my girlfriend, for example, was not told that her aircraft was in maintenance when she booked her second lesson). I suspect that this may explain why the bookings sheets had so many gaps in them. They are probably one of the cheapest schools around, but if you pay peanuts you get monkeys.


Cloud69, "Your first week? Second time round!" - I like it! I suspect my belongings will still be boxes scattered around my new house after my second first week, and I may not be on-line, so I can't promise, but I'll give it a go if I am on-line and have some spare time!

FFF
--------------

[long final]

FFF, where are you going to be instructing?

[FNG]

That's a sensible viewpoint FFF, as the hassle associated with asserting one's rights should not be underestimated.

One thing hard done by instructors might consider is that the Inland Revenue has a little known enforcement power in relation to minimum wages, and can investigate deductions from pay etc.

[FlyingForFun]

Long Final,

The new job is at Blackpool, working for WestAir. A completely new part of the world for me - I've never even used a North of England chart before (except to plan a couple of flights which were cancelled due to weather). But with the combination of a very large line feature (aka the coast), and Blackpool Tower (the large structure in the town, not the callsign of ATC), I can't think of very many places which will be easier to find my way around!

Quick note to everyone, since I realise that this thread has caused a fair bit of interest. I will be packing up my PC ready for the move within a day or two, which means I won't be able to read/reply to posts. I will reply to anything that needs a reply once I get back on-line, but in the mean time please don't take it personally if I ignore your messages.

FFF
------------

[Charlie Zulu]

Hi FlyingForFun,

All the best for the new job at Blackpool.

I'm flying up to Glasgow in a few weeks time and will be using Blackpool as my refuelling point. I'll pop in and say hi if you're around.

Watch your waist line as there are plenty of take aways within very easy walking distance of the terminal building at Blackpool... ;)

Best wishes,

Charlie Zulu.

[long final]

FFF, did my PPL there, good set of people, you'll have fun and plenty of flying.

Will no doubt run into you soon.

Regards,

LF

[jaarrgh]

FFF

Well done for your move. I think you are right to expect more. Although it is always a little hard to start with you sound like you want to work hard and so it will work out. On the subject of idiot CFI/Owners.... having worked at 5 schools: first one was abroad and absolutely outstanding, second in the UK not bad, third was slow with a menacing air and I was told to pay for my checkout on leaving, I didn't so they kept about 90 quid of mine, so I was still laughing when I was at the fourth where I was sacked for going to an interview. By now I was in hysterics as my barely readable letter saying 'we don't need you' arrived on the same day as my employment contract from the fifth school, where I worked hard, had fun and managed 100 hrs/month in the summer @ £20/hour. Now work in air taxi and still waiting for the £200 holiday pay from the fifth school from last September! Hilarious! Quite a mixed bag but it is ones colleagues and immediate superiors who make it or break it really. Onwards and upwards!

[Miektila]

FFF,
I am teaching at EGGD now, ever passing drop me a line, or pop in for a coffee.
Hope it all happens for you at Blackpool.

Cheers,
PK

[fonawah]

Thanks for sharing your experience with us FFF. Glad things are finally working out for you.
Good luck with the new job.
F

[pilotbear]

FNG, Flyteam aviation still owe me £138 from last year, as usual Amir Alam only pays part of his invoices. FFF's experience is fairly typical of this company. He threatens in a subtle way to not give references...and I know for a fact that he rings up prospective employers and 'doesn't recommend you'. He made the mistake of ringing a friend of mine about me:rolleyes:
He made one instructor use a different name because he had fallen out with his previous instructor with the same name. When I left to work for someone else on the airfield he use to follow me around and hide in corners (really) to see if I was talking to Flyteam customers, and he would threaten to expell them if they flew with me:sad:

He uses his debts to get his own way with the airfield management 'If I go out of business, I wont be able to pay you what I owe you'

There are a lot more stories I could tell but they will probably panic the mods and be censored. If you want to help me get my dosh let me know.

Finally, well done FFF for the new job.

:ok:

[FNG]

pilotbear, could you kindly send to the email address which I have given you by PM a message or (if lengthy) a Word document setting out your claim in reasonable detail, and I'll let you know if there's anything you can do about the money due, but you will be too late now to use the simple procedures of the Employment Tribunal (which has very short time limits for claims) and would have to use the County Court, which charges issue fees. I would be interested to hear privately precisely what was said to your friend.

[mad_jock]

Actually I would be interest to know the law as well on the subject of people giving bad references which are untrue.

I have heard of several Instructors that dread the day when they have to get references because they know fine that the CFI will try and stick the knife in.

MJ

[FNG]

Mad Jock, I am not qualified to comment on Scots law, but in England and Wales the position is as follows.

In the case of Spring v Guardian Assurance (a case in which I appeared, losing on a penalty shoot out after a 4 all draw), the House of Lords decided that an employer owes a duty to a former employee to take care in giving a reference. A negligent reference may engage liability if it causes proveable and measurable loss.

The law of defamation is of less assistance to an employee than is the law of negligence, as a reference is subject to what is known as qualified privilege, and an employee can only sue for libel or slander in respect of untrue remarks in a reference if the maker of the remarks acted maliciously (that is: made a false statement without believing it to be true). Malice is enormously difficult to prove, which is why the opening up of the negligence route represented a significant change.

[rotavator]

pilotBear:

Re. your "There are a lot more stories I could tell but they will probably panic the mods and be censored..."

It is a shame that we can't have a sensible/objective list of
"avoid" organisations. I think it would provide a good service both for those who are new and experienced.

[Happyeater]

I can't stand injustice in employment, this is simply not fair. These people are breaking the law but seem to have the power over FI's trying to earn a living. At this point, may I just say that I'm about to become a student PPl and was just looking around the site.

I do employ almost 100 people and have had a lot of experience with the Employment Tribunals and with minimum wage legislation. If you want to pm me rather to talk on here, please do so, I'll try to be of assistance.

I'll just point out a few ways of causing this person(s) a few problems.

If you have a contract of employment (after 3 months they have to unless you're self employed). Then unless it is stated that they can withold payment and it is a 'express written term of your employment' then he can't do it. If you are an employee there must be a time recording for pay method? And a specified rate that you work for. They may be in breach of any point of these laws.

Assuming you're self employed, then you supply him an invoice for work done. Is there a written agreement / service agreement with a contracted £ per hour. If you can prove you have worked the hours (log book / booking form etc) then you can sue him for a breach of contract.

A visit from the minimum wage people is in order if he has no records or, has records but pays a lower amount than £4.50 per hour to you. If you are employed, do you get a payslip? If so deductions etc will have to be shown. If employed with no payslip, then is he paying your NI stamp and or PAYE? If not he could be in serious bother. A call to the local Inland Revenue office will let you know.

A tribunal is not like a court of law, it's very relaxed and informal. The tribunal will help you a lot. Your local Citizens Advice Bureau is also quite knowlegable in this stuff too.

Don't let bullies get away with it.

Sorry if my answer is a bit fragmented, I've added comments as I've gone along. Good luck with the new position though.

[FNG]

Happyeater, I am glad that, as a consumer of Employment Tribunal services, you have found them to be informal and straightforward. They were always supposed to be like that, but in my experience, regrettably, they rarely are. Having said that, no one with the wit to become a flying instructor ought to feel intimidated by the Tribunal process, as it ain't, as we say, physicus missilis.

PS: There is a small error in Happyeater's posting on the contract of employment point. The employer is obliged to provide a written statement of particulars of employment (not necessarily a full contract) within two months of the commencement of employment. The brief summary of the law on deductions from pay is not quite accurate either, but here is not the place to go into detail on that, and the gist of what Happyeater says is correct.

[Happyeater]

Apologies, you are of course correct, its two months not three.

(insert embarrassed smilie here...lol)

[pilotbear]

Hi FNG,
I have sent you an email

:ok:

[Amir]

Pilotbear

I have always found Flyteam an excellent establishment with outstanding aircraft and don't forget the AOC;) It's surely coming soon.

Thanks for the phone call;)

[IRRenewal]

Amir, who in his profile claims to be an excellent pilot, registered on PPRuNe today and flies a C150 from Elstree, wrote:

an excellent establishment with outstanding aircraft

They stand out alright, but for the right reasons?

[charlie-india-mike]

'with outstanding aircraft '

Yea, 'out standing' in the middle of the runway minus nosegear
Yea, outstanding in the fact that they can 'mate' with other aircraft on the taxiway

C-I-M

[pilotbear]

no worries 'amir':cool:

[FlyingForFun]

I promised that I would try to post after my first week at my new flying school. My home PC is still not connected to the internet, and probably won't be for at least another week, but I thought that, considering that amount of support and advice that everyone has given me, the very least I could do in return is pay the small amount the Internet Cafe charges in order to give you an update.

I've now been working at WestAir for one week, and I couldn't be happier. In my first week flying out of Blackpool, I have logged around 4 times as many instruction hours, and earnt over 6 times as much money, as I managed in four weeks at FlyTeam!

I would guess that around 2/3 of my flying has been trial lessons, but I have also flown with a couple of PPL students at various stages of the syllabus, and have enjoyed every single flight so far. Already in my first week I have received a "Thank you" card from a lady who bought her husband a trial lesson as a birthday present and was delighted with how much he enjoyed the flight, and I have had one PPL student who has flown with a number of instructors ask to switch all of the future lessons he's already booked to be with me (but he was disappointed because my schedule was too full to be able to do that).

As well as a great bunch of students, the school has some wonderful staff there, who have helped me out with getting to know the local area and procedures. As well as the other instructors and managment, there are a group of volunteers who help out on weekends by refuelling aircraft, briefing trial lessons, sorting out paperwork and generally doing whatever they need to do to ensure that us instructors get to spend as much time as possible in the air. (So much so, in fact, that I found that having a PPL student who needed briefing was a huge relief - the volunteers will brief trial lessons if needed, but not PPL students, so doing the occassional briefing is the only chance you get to have your feet on the ground for more than 5 minutes!!!)

The weeks leading up to my move were extremely stressful - finding somewhere to live in Blackpool, renting out my flat in London, and arranging to move almost the length of the country one day after I returned from a pre-booked holiday - ouch! And all that while trying to retain at least a few crumbs of the money I'd saved for the IR. It's all starting to fall into place now... I'm getting settled into my new home almost as fast as I settled into my new job, and although I have used up every last crumb of the IR money at least I haven't had to borrow money yet. (Don't ask where the money for the IR is coming from though - I'll work that out in a year or so!) The only thing I haven't managed to do is sell my aircraft - so if anyone out there happens to want to buy a share in a Europa monowheel based at White Waltham, then please let me know because you would be helping with my IR funding enourmously - it's a little too far from my new home for me to be able to keep it!

Once again, thanks to everyone who's posted on this thread, PM'ed, e-mailed, or spoken to me privately for helping me to make the correct decision. I look forward to getting internet access at home in a week or so, and being a regular PPRuNer once again!

FFF
-------------

PS - Long Final, nice to meet you!

PPS - Miektila, welcome back to the UK - you're a little out of my area, but I'll let you know if I happen to be down your way so we can meet up for a beer (or whisky) or two!

[Penworth]

Glad to hear its going well for you now FFF. You can't do much better than westair, they're a top notch club. I'll probably bump into you from time to time as I fly out of Westair (well, BAE, which uses Westair's facilities).

Good luck:ok:

[Andy_R]

It's really heartening to hear that you have at last managed to find your feet and are enjoying your flying once again.

Best of luck and keep us in touch

:ok:

[LD Max]

So is it usual for instructors to be asked to pay for their own checkouts / familiarisation flights?

It seems to me that any employer is required to provide initial training whether you work in an office or at an airfield.

Is it even legal, when the candidate is qualified for the job, to essentially make the employment conditional upon the candidate paying for his own assessment?

I hope this question isn't too indiscreet for this forum, (and I understand if no-one wants to answer it), but what is the "going rate" of pay for instructors at Flyteam, (or anywhere else for that matter)? Are terms and conditions fairly standard across the UK industry, or are there as many variations as there are flying schools?

I only ask, because I am recently qualified as a JAA FI myself and am currently desperately seeking work. But while I accept the rates of pay can be pretty grim to start with, I don't want to get ripped off by someone who is not even playing according to industry norms.

Advice appreciated.

[GusHoneybun]

LD MAX.

There are a few schools that charge for the newbie instructors to do a check flight. Personally, I wouldn't work at such a school as it speaks volumes about their attitude to instructors. Fortunatly, this practice has not been adopted by most other flying schools so it is comfortably scarce.
As to pay and stuff, well I used to get £12 for every hour flown and £400 a month retainer. That was up in the grim north somewhere. Didn't get diddle squat for briefing or the evening class, but most students were more than happy to buy me a beer in the bar afterwards. There was a thread on pay for FI's a few months ago that you might want to try and search for.

[LD Max]

GusHoneyBun: Many thanks for the helpful reply.

[pilotbear]

Flyteam Aviation will pay you as little as possible. You will be expected to travel between Cranfield and Elstree at your own expense, even if there is no flying when you get there.

[LD Max]

I'm kinda getting the idea. Not to mention that from where I live to Elstree will cost me around £100 per week in fuel (about 110 miles round trip).

I will wait to see what he offers, but will (at the very least) be looking for some assurances that he will treat me a bit better than he has treated others in the past.

The only redeeming feature (if you can call it that) is that he has been in business for quite some time... It's not a fly-by-night outfit and his procedures and planes look quite good.

His existing team of instructors must be getting something out of it to stay there!

[pilotbear]

You are dreaming here. He will tell you all sorts of stories about other disloyal instructors...I cannot go into detail here..how everyone tries to rip him off...etc.
You will be his best buddy until someone else is.....

[charlie-india-mike]

LD Max

I hear that you have taken the post at Flyteam, i do hope it works out for you and I'll make a point of poping around to introduce myself sometime.

C-I-M

[LD Max]

Charlie-India-Mike

Too late I'm afraid. I've left already!

Main problem was the travel. Need something a bit closer to home. Found the experience "illuminating". Probably best to leave it there really. :rolleyes:

Still, thanks for the kind encouragement and the offer to drop in! Send me a PM, and perhaps we could talk some more.

Regards,

LD Max.