Triple A = Triple the cost

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Well, not for some I'm sure, but for all of the people I know that went there. What a rip off school. Having been an experience pro pilot already I thought it wise to shop around and pick a decent school, well, the head of training at triple 'A' is a fantastic sales man and will give you a fantastic speal about psychology and all the rest of it. Well, thats it. You'll hear that over and over again, and three times the cost later... well, maybe 2.5 times... you're fed up. Well that was my opinion.

The school, in my very humble opinion of course, is poorly run, inefficient and will stare you down when you stand up to their bully tactics. Even the words "you don't have a leg to stand on" were used to tell a student they had no legal recourse after they weren't happy with the service. Well, we do, and it's called word of mouth. Oh, and even once I'd paid my final bill, I still had bills arriving through my door day after day, weeks after training was completed. Ok, yes I did owe them, but why is their accounting system so slow? unnacceptable.

Looking back, I wish I'd chosen BCFT or PAT at bournemouth after all.

[trainer too 2]

With al respect can't you be more specific as it is easy to claim all kind of things of this nature.

-Why did the cost go up
-Who was the blame for that (sometimes it might be down to you as well... :eek: I have seen a lot of people who came for a conversion who had all kind of US licences (even instructors) who were not up to UK standards and found that hard to accept)
-Isn't there another way to deal with this, you have just signed up under this identity and it looks like you have a chip on your shoulder.

In all be more specific please!


:suspect:

[Megaton]

Stand-by for thread closure! Some schools will take the criticism and defend themselves openly. Some do not. Guess what?

[Delta Echo Bravo]

The cost went up because when we were being trained in the simulator, it would be frozen, you would be de-briefed while the clock was ticking, then sent back in, having been made to feel like @&$£, performing poorly, and on went the cycle.

Grounschool would be double charged to two students, not common practice despite what the head of training might claim.

The instructors would demoralise you while flying, particularly in high workload situations meaning more approaches... MORE MONEY.

Whatever is said above could be put down to me being unnable to cope, but this is a story I hear over and over from AAA students. I know I can cope because of the job I'm doing now and the job I did previously, both of which as a pilot I should add.

There is another way to deal with this. Re-imburse a percentage of the cost incurred. I was quoted £8,500 for the training I required as a "rough" figure. £22,000 is does certainly not qualify as roughly around £8,500.

I have just signed up under this name. I don't have a chip, just a respect for fellow aviators and potential aviators. I have been using PPRUNE for years, just not under this name. When I did have a chip on my shoulder, I didn't post because I knew I wouldn't be objective.

Happy school hunting my fellow aviators. Remember, it's worth it in the end, especially if you save yourself the grief of £10,000 or more.

[trainer too 2]

Jus received this PM from a Dumb E B

Hi Mike

Nice Try.

Just to let you know:
-I am not Mike
-I guessed ok that you had american licences by looking at only oher post you made.

Hi,

Any help??

I'm an experienced CPL 'ATPL' with over 1000 hrs multi, loads of nav, night, IFR and all the rest of it.

I'd love to fly a BE 200 or Caravan in UK/Europe and am looking to move on in the next year or so. I understand the SET rules in the UK, so accept that'd be for a private company.

Any other help with getting an in into corporate/GA/Freight work would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers

If you were smart enough to have done a profile and posting check on me you would know that

-I am Dutch
-Fly 737s
-Trained at PAT and always recommend them when asked:

Professional Air Training if you want the best IR in terms of quality. Not the cheapest though but just very good value for money!

As I did not like this school bassing without specifics I jumped on it and am glad that you fit the profile of "I have a lot of hours IF in the states and thus know everthing" profile exactly!

Rest me nothing than to report your posting and congratulating "mike" on getting rid of you after all:oh:

:ok:

[Delta Echo Bravo]

My IF time is not from the US. I hope it is reported.

I don't know what you mean by 'Mike got rid of me'???

I believe in honesty.

This school was disshonest. I've been to several training establishments around the world. All of which were excellent, except Triple A.

Report Me. Fine. This is the truth, and as for you slandering my ability to look up profiles on PPRUNE, oh well. We live and learn hey.

Bye :D

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well - AAA have been around for a long time, people here have sung their praises, few have ever complained in this fashion. You are therefore something of a first...

I am 'guessing' that you must have been a problem student as a final bill of £22,000 from and £8,500 quote must have involved a heck of a lot of extra hours. If that were to be happening with any regularity then:

a) I'd have heard about it before now,

b) Nobody much would ever go there.


IF they charge per student for groundschool and thats an open policy available to you prior to going with them then I can't see the problem. Many schools do the same thing so it is common practice.

Whilst no school is perfect I think this anti-AAA rant is unwarranted and unlikely to be true in the way portrayed. Doubtless ex-students with happy tales will later come piling into the discussion.


Cheers

WWW

[Megaton]

I think the reason that you rarely hear any criticism is that threads on this topic are always closed fairly quickly by the moderators. I'm surprised that www hasn't come across this sort of discussion before? For instance: Triple A discussion (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=956969&highlight=Triple+A#post956969)

[Peggy Murphy]

Dont waste your time trying to help give advice to future students of any school. The moderators seem to know it all and would prefer to see all the new guys and girls done out of thousands of pounds. Maybe the schools are paying them to stop these threads.People will do anything for money these days...............even fly planes.

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Wee Weasley Welshman, one thing to say is, there have been many anti triple 'A' statements on this discussion board. I've seen many of them with my own eyes and have had the pleasure of knowing some of the genuine and honest people who placed them.

This is nothing new.

[Aircart]

Hey all, interesting can of worms opened here!!!

How ya doing Ham & DEB? I was going to link that thread from last year but you beat me to it! :p

I have to agree whole heartedly with DEB and HP, I also had a similar experience, follow HP's link to see my post.

To summarise: did Faa IR, came back to convert, Paid AAA £2500 for 16.6hrs over two weeks on sim, got told I was not up to standard and need to do more hrs! Spoke to past students, told to get out of there and did!
Went to AFT (Exeter) did 2.5hrs proving in there sim, onto the twin in 2 days 12hrs training in the BE-76, then a successful 1st time JAA IR Pass! Nothing really to debrief, examiner said it was a nice smooth flight!!

So they can't use the old defence of "this guy's not ready!" That’s bull!
I did feel there was a constant 'put down' policy. My confidence was shot to sh*t at AAA and I wondered if I had the ability to do instrument flying; Obviously not the case from my comments above!

WWW- AAA have been in business for a long time but the current owner hasn't owned it for all of this time, funnily enough the guy that subsequently trained me for the UK IR use to own AAA!!!
I had a chat about AAA to him and it's current policies, suffice to say we had an interesting chat!
The school also doesn’t have that many students in comparison with the better schools and so you aren’t going to hear much about this place, I did a search and couldn't find much on them except bad posts and the occasional "to good to be true post" :hmm:

This Rant isn't unwarranted, I know at least 2 guys who spent in the region of £ 15000-£20000 on a CPL with this FTO!!!!!!!!

Oh buy the way on my original post, quotes were changed without my knowledge making my reply look a bit odd!

I would like to here other students views, I know who I would and wouldn't recommend!!!

Laters

AC :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Alright. Note that this thread HASN'T been removed. If AAA are letting a lot of people down then you are free to post factual examples here.

We have no agenda to defend or promote any FTO. The advertising from any is frankly tiny and I am in total ignorance of it anyway (we are not lavishly paid at PPRuNe HQ).

I'm more than happy for people to post actual experiences be they good or bad - that was a large part of the value of PPRuNe when I was a Wannabe and I don't want to see that die out of an undue respect for fairness or fear of litigation.

Cheers

WWW

[mad_jock]

To be honest triple AAA do have a very bad rep in the North of England WWW. Its not the first time I have heard similar stuff as above about the costs. Triple in their name also goes for the price quoted.

They are way to interested in maintaining that best pass rate.

When i did visit the smarm was turned on for all of 10 minutes untils he found out i had passed the IR the prievous week at LFS then he disappeared.

And I don't know if its still true BTF is he charging 60 quid for a A4 binder with crap photocopys of the course syllabus. Which gets looked at once when you get given it and then get dumped after your test.

MJ

And BTW its good to see some of these critical threads left open. There are some sharks out there and wannabies need to know

[crispy banana]

Friend of mine went there last yr and he said the same thing, basically steer well clear :yuk:...

Got an interesting email from him with all the details...PM if anyone wants a look :ooh:

Myself, I went to PAT and found them excellent! :ok: :ok: :ok:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Threads critical of FTO's do cause us major headaches as threats of litigation often fly.

Make sure what you post is accurate and based on personal experience. This way we can let them stand and there is no comeback despite wailing and gnashing of teeth. I'm interested that people think we have been too quick to close FTO critical threads in the past. Duly noted.

Cheers

WWW

[Sean Dillon]

I've had the wonderful pleasure of this school and I have to say, i'm responsible for alot of postings on closed threads, maybe I went over the top, but I would not wish on anybody what my son went through with this FTO. I have no chip on my shoulder either, my son has now completed his training with a first time IR pass at another FTO and now holds a Pro. Pilot job.

I felt so serious about this, I sent a letter to the CAA at Gatwick with my complaints to make them aware of the general instructing practices of Triple A.

It's very much a mirror of everyone elses story - we paid approx £20k for a CPL/Multi, my son was in tears twice, confidence was rock bottom (which of course would mean more hours!!) he was even asked by one of the instructors if he wanted to carry on training implying he wasn't cabable - is this any way to instruct someone at a professional level? All the time removing well earned money from him (and me!). Like anybody in this world, I hate being ripped off - and the value for money from this FTO is virtually zero.

Having seen the other side of the coin with a different FTO (Professional Air Training) who were highly professional, motivated the students superbly, incredibly good value for money and more importantly, my son enjoyed it from day one to the day he passed his test.

In short,
AVOID, AVOID, AVOID.....

[Ikkle!]

I went to AAA with a plan to complete my CPL/Multi/IR with them. I so so so wish i'd completed my entire flying training at Bournemouth, instead I only had the great pleasure of completing my IR there.

I would be approx £10k better off and not have gone through, what seems to be a common trait, of low confidence and great stress, both financially and mentally.

Here's a few things from there website that are contradictory to what I experienced:

Personally Tailored Training Programme
This was used against me. I remained in full time employment, hardly likely to give up work in-view of the market place! I flew on my days off, not ideal but realistic,- this was very much used to extend my training at great expense. Hence a £20,000 CPL/Multi - outrageous!

Also the psychological rubbish of AAA's version of a pilot profile which I was taught time and time again was completely unrealistic and so out of touch. During my PPL training, I was taught the crab-angle crosswind land method, the most common I think and I was very happy with it. My AAA instructor insisted I did the wing down method because "that's what the airlines will want you to do" - I thought this rather odd and when I asked an A320 captain, the reply was "Yep! The passengers just love coming down the approach with a wing down!! - who taught you that cr*p?"

A Friendly but Thorough Approach to Training
Friendly NO! - Thorough, YES - about 25 extra hours minimum thorough. To quote one of the instructors who told me "We have our reputation to think about" It was all about maintaining the pass rate.

Of our highly qualified career instructors who only have your best interests in mind
Ok - I'm crying now!!!!

On request we can readily put you in touch with Students who have recently attended at Triple “A” Flying.
Do it, Do it, Do it!!! Oh please do it!!!.

As this was my first experience of professional flying training, I assumed this teaching style was the norm. I didn't know any better. Please, please, any wannabies at the stage of choosing a flying school do so with extreme caution, not based on pass rates - speak to past students - ignore the sales speak - and make sure your comfortable with the environment.

[RVR800]

My experience of the IR since JAR

Expensive
Time-Consuming
Difficult
Many jobs in the UK going to none UK nationals
People are economical about the real cost
The maintenance of an IR is high
The ICAO airlines are binning it for direct entry cadets in 2005
The GA man-machine interface in different than Glass cockpit
The single crew mentality has to be unlearnt in the airlines
Many people give up the IR
Only a handful of people get PPL IRs many elect to go FAA IR
It costs 6 pounds a minute and stress is disproportionaltely high
If your old, not wealthy, have kids, have a full time job forget it
The CAA partially fail you very nicely though
The Uk airlines are becoming low cost .. reciprocate - you go low cost
You could go abroad ................................... less than 6K for an JAA-IR

http://www.f-air.cz/www_anglicke/index.htm

In short its a disaster...

[Delta Echo Bravo]

It's finally good to see us ex-wannabes looking out for the interests of our future colleuges. Any body looking for an FTO, please do tread carefully and take notice of the advice us that have been there have given you.

I'm not saying don't go to a particular school, but my advice is "ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS talk to at least three recently past students of YOUR choice and not the schools who trained there." Do this so you know that what you're getting from the school is what you want.

I'm sure that Triple 'A' has provided satisfaction to some customers, but certainly not to me.

I was very dishartened. It took me a long time to get my personal and professional confidence back, and I already had significant professional experience. Having said that, for all those out there who have had a rough ride with a bad FTO, it is possible to pull through. I'm now sat at an internet cafe in a busy airport waiting for my next flight on a glorious sunny day, loving my job. It'd be just that little sweeter if I was ten grand better off.

See what people have written and learn from our mistakes, PLEASE!!!!!!

Happy flying friends. :ok:

[scroggs]

Peggy Murphy wrote:

Dont waste your time trying to help give advice to future students of any school. The moderators seem to know it all and would prefer to see all the new guys and girls done out of thousands of pounds. Maybe the schools are paying them to stop these threads.People will do anything for money these days...............even fly planes.

We do not close down threads because they are critical of FTOs, but we do object to derogatory posts made by people who have not attended the schools they are criticising. If the experience you relate is not your own, you may be guilty of slander or even libel. While I don't really give a damn if you end up in court facing such a charge, unless I can identify you it could be me facing the legal wrath of a libelled school. Anyone here want to take the rap for me?

Thought not.

So, if you want to make posts criticising FTOs, make sure it is your own experience you are talking about, not 'a mate's', and be prepared to identify yourself if your allegations are particularly controversial. If you are not prepared to identify yourself (in private, to the mods), then don't be surprised if your post is removed.

Scroggs

[RVR800]

I think that the amount of money paid to flying schools
is ofter more than one expects ie over the advertised
rate - this is simply beacuse the schools assume that
you will get thru in the minimum hours ...

[Ikkle!]

All of us had budgets to cover not getting through in the published minimum hours - what we didn't budget for is 25 hours over the published amount...!!!!!!

Funny how then all of us went to other FTO's for our IR's and finished the 50 hour course off all within our budgets, and in no-more than 53 hours....

[Fruitfly]

Ikkle

Did you go through a special unlearning process, or is it just possible that some of what you learnt at your previous FTO may have helped you pass within your quoted times?

Just a thought.

[Ikkle!]

Fruitfly,

I have no doubt been familiar with the BE76 and the fact that most of us completed a 50+ hour CPL/Multi helped us in no uncertain terms with the IR training....but that's not really the point i'm making here, some of the posts here are from people who remained with AAA for IR training and even after exceeded hours on CPL's, still exceeded hours on IR's...but you are correct for those of us that left to go to more reputable FTO's...

I would like to say in AAA's defence that flying next to Captain Newton was always a pleasure, he was the only instructor with any real industry knowledge and was very much on planet earth with a fantastic instructing ability.

[Capt BK]

I have met the HoT of AAA as he was talking to another HUY training school and he basically spent 20 mins or so slagging off all his own students. At the time I was in the process of choosing my CPL school so sat quitely at the side to observe him but I decided straight away that I wouldn't be doing it with him.

As many have said, look around - There are many good schools around. I take personal recommendations and warnings seriously and am very happy with my chosen training establishment. AAA may well have lots of happy past students which is fine but I have only ever actually met disgruntled pilots from them.

There is rarely smoke without fire???

(Edited to keep the peace:cool: )

[scroggs]

BK beware (as I said in my earlier post) of quoting mates' experiences. They are not your own, and they may well have been exaggerated for effect when relayed to you - maybe over a beer or two. It doesn't matter how much you trust them, if you can't quote your own experience, don't quote at all.

Scroggs

[Fingerbang]

I went there in 2002. Finished in about 3 months and passed both CPL and IR first time. As did two others I know. I know this because all three of us passed airline sim checks last year and are in training/flying for that airline now. I thought the CPL/IR course was hard and the standards high but when it comes down to it, those standards got me through the sim check . So I'm glad I was pushed to my limits by AAA.

[Flypuppy]

I can back up Fingerbang's assertions. The standards are set high by AAA but I do feel that I profited from the experience. It has been proven in various situations where I have had the opportunity to play with flight sims (B747-400 and 737NG).

Mad Jock, I wont take your post apart point by point but I find little truth in anything you have written. I would appreciate it if you were to remove the lies you have written that refer -however vauge- to me.

Ikkle, are you the guy who claimed to be a highly experienced ex-Royal Navy helicopter pilot?

Every school has its detractors, for whatever reason. It is up to the individual to visit schools and make a balanced decision for themselves. Where one school will suit one person it wont suit another.

Some comments here may well be valid, but from my experience I see many as disingenuous, but FWIW that is just my opinion.

[Ikkle!]

Good to see another side to the argument. (1500+ views before rallying the troops - your slipping Captain!!)

But there is one argument I think we should put to bed once and for all....

Around the flight schools of Humberside and Leeds, a certain poor chap has been accused of doing exactly what this thread is doing, fuelled only by AAA's owner/Head of Training - this being his only defence to his bad press - pretty pathetic really!

Well, i'm sorry to disappoint - I am not Walter "E.E" Mitty.

Believe it or not Captain, but you have a far greater amount of displeased past customers than just the 1!. Students who are keen to make sure wannabies are aware of their experiences.

Please confront Mr E with your thoughts Captain rather than just permanently blackening his name - I understand he works for Eastern Airways flying a J31/2 (in true E.E style it actually transpires he works in the Ops Department!) so he's just around the corner - I can guarantee he'll deny it, and for once it'll be truth.

[Sean Dillon]

Well, i'm glad it's not just me! I've had numerous Private Messages, asking if I was Admiral E****s. All very amusing...never met him, but I understand he proved very entertaining...

Can't believe MB is still clinging to this theory after all this time...how out of touch is he...!!!!

[Flypuppy]

It is none of yopur :mad: business how much I paid for anything and I will not have my experiences used and abused by you on a public forum without my permission. Edit your post MJ.

[mad_jock]

sorry m8

taken on the chin and offending item removed.

MJ

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Since my time at Triple 'A', this "Walter Mitty" Character Mr. E has receiced an absolute slating both online and in person from instructors at AAA. This is infact slanderous without any hard evidence to back it up. It makes me wonder if my name has been slandered since I was at Triple A???

My comment to AAA's staff is, leave him alone, whatever he claims to have done in the past is not your business anymore. He's completed his training and has no more connection with your FTO. It concerns me greatly that these comments are continuously being made and so many people know of this person.

As for whats been stated so far, just to back it up and give it some substance, and to put the moderators minds at ease. I did complete my training at AAA. I was unhappy with it, and I would not reccommend this school to anyone. This is my opinion, and I'm sure it differs from others , however, to re-enforce what I've already said. The training cost me well over double, almost 3 times the quoted price. I felt demoralised all the way through training. I was not spoken to with the respect that is deserved by all students. Many of the instructional practices were, outdated at best and there are numerous hidden costs built in, including ground instruction which was not quoted at all during my initial visit to the school. After seeking legal advice, I have discovered that many of these practices are falling on grey areas. Not only that, the required ground training was exceeded by quite a substancial ammount.

I found very little respect for peoples time and money. Being in a commercial job now, I can say that there is no doubt in my mind the training I received at AAA did not reflect the real world.

I was unhappy with Triple 'A' and say to the wannabes out there, please tread carefully. Learn from others mistakes.

Happy learning, flying and job hunting!!!

Once again. This is my opinion to which I am entitled, In stating my opinion I make no attempt to imply other peoples opinions or experienced, past, present or future.

[jonyson]

if AAA is that bad why dont the CAA or Trading Standards get involved and investigate these practises,
I can accept that no 2 people are the same, when it comes to learning and they do learn at different speeds,

[Monitorverticalspeed]

Hi all,

I went to AAA during 2002, got to say others that were there at the time were having one or two problems, I completed my CPL in the time I was told it would take, and although I got a partial on my IR I would have completed that in the time as well. I came to the scool with 150 hours total having done 70 of those in the states. It was damn hard work, but having not been through this kind of training before I didn't know what to expect.

I found all the instructors at the school fine, Mike does have his own way of teaching, but a year after I left I found myself being in the sim of a big jet and three days letter with a phone call saying can you start your 737 type rating course next week.

Now 6 months down the line I'm right hand seat of a 737NG with 200 hours on type. The lessons i learn't there will stay with my throughout my flying career and I don't have a bad word to say.


I guess there are tow sides to every coin.

Oh and i'm afraid Mr E does talk out his backside, Royal Navy helicopter pilot - yeah whatever....how did that interview with Eastern go?? the one that you never ever had?

"Target Captain!"

Feel free to PM.

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Thanks for your side of the story Monitor Vertical Speed, but I would say that the lessons you learn at any flight school will stay with you for the rest of your life, for good or for bad, unless of course you make great efforts to un learn them.

I did not go to the school with minimum time, in fact I went with quite substantial professional experience. I found that previous experience was not respected and apparently everything I'd ever done was wrong. Now being in a scheduled airline, I discovered that my previous experience in fact is valid, and I was not the one in the wrong.

My training was made substantially more difficult due to what I felt was a basic lack of respect for the student.

I also felt the accounting department was poor, and even months after my training was completed I was still receiving bills. When I questioned these, the attitude of the owner/head of training completely changed and became even less respectful.

If I could change one thing in my life, I would never have given AAA a second look. Oh well, we live and learn, and in 12 years I'll have recovered financially.

Enjoy my money MB.

I admire honesty.

I don't admire AAA.

[clubley]

For Delta Echo Bravo and all the others like him/her!

Instead of acting like a coward and hiding behind a pseudonym, why don't you write under your real name! Or is it that you don't want others to recognize you for what you really are.
I am a student with Triple A, and yes they are not the cheapest school around, but the quality of training you receive is far superior than some of the bigger names. Records shows this to be true and their reputation with the CAA speaks for itself.
Perhaps your problem, has more to do with, not the equipment but the operator. A poor workman will always blame his tools!!!!!!!!
It is about time PPrune stop people for registring under pseudonyn to stop all this rubbish some people band about. If people really had a genuine grievance they should take it up with the schools themselves or the individual. But if they feel that they have a duty to other potential students to write here on PPrune, then at least have the balls to publish under their own name.:mad:

[trainer too 2]

And your real name is ? ;)

[Sean Dillon]

Clubley - i'm assuming this is your surname!?

Instead of acting like a coward and hiding behind a pseudonym, why don't you write under your real name! Or is it that you don't want others to recognize you for what you really are.

Straight from MB's lips - I can hear it now!!!!

The general experience from a fair number of people, that I am aware of, who have trained at AAA is not a pleasant one - these people are keen to voice their experiences, especially to people who are in a position to be choosing an FTO - that is really all this is about. Although, as is obvious, there is a large feeling of bitterness and anger from past students for a certain owner of this FTO, all of which is totally justified for reason's I will not enter into on this public BB. (not due to cowardness but MB likes to threaten court precedings 4 times a week....especially if you order more than 1 sandwich at lunchtime!!)

...the quality of training you receive is far superior than some of the bigger names.

Prove it! What experience of other schools do you have to back this up? I have paid my son through another FTO after attending AAA - they were nothing short of light years ahead of AAA...

Records shows this to be true and their reputation with the CAA speaks for itself.

What records?
Who has told you about AAA's reputation with the CAA?
You've fallen for the sales speak haven't you!!!??? tut tut - first rule in choosing an FTO!!!

It is about time PPrune stop people for registring under pseudonyn....

Errr...you haven't really got the hang of this website have you..!!!

[clubley]

Alright then, it is CLUBLEY, for those you couldn't work it out!!!

If AAA is really that bad instead of mouthing of all the time why don't you make it official and contact the CAA. Which of course you'll need lots proof. I am confident there are more satisfied students from AAA than there are unhappy ones.

We all have a write to complain, what i am staying is you should use your real name and not hide. At least then people are able to defend themselves and their reputation, which they have the right to do so, Just as you have the right to complain.

[Dan761]

I recently finished training with Triple A, at the end of May actually, with a first time IR pass:D I found the training given was very thorough, a big shock compared to how my initial training was out in Canada. However, when i went for the Instrument ride i found it went extremely smoothly and according to plan, which i am sure is due to me having been forced to work like i have never done before on each and every training flight.
As for respect, i was always spoken to just like anywhere else i've been, infact wouldn't have thought about untill i read this thread.
So all in all i found Triple A to be great, in so far as i acheived what i set out to do with them and learnt a lot too.

[clubley]

AAA the place for good honest training, for those who are willing to work hard.

[Sean Dillon]

Mr Clubley !

Please keep lines like that comin! - their killin' me!!!

Oh, and in reply to yours (or MB's) - check your PM's!

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Instead of acting like a coward and hiding behind a pseudonym, why don't you write under your real name! Or is it that you don't want others to recognize you for what you really are.

NO!!! Not on the internet. Are you mad!!!

I am a student with Triple A, and yes they are not the cheapest school around, but the quality of training you receive is far superior than some of the bigger names. Records shows this to be true and their reputation with the CAA speaks for itself.

Proove it. What record??? Where??? Your talk of CAA records. They're a regulatory authority, not there to boost AAA's appearance. The CAA will not comment for or against a schools reputation. That's not what they're there for.

If AAA is really that bad instead of mouthing of all the time why don't you make it official and contact the CAA. Which of course you'll need lots proof. I am confident there are more satisfied students from AAA than there are unhappy ones.

Now you're just sounding too much like MB.

Perhaps your problem, has more to do with, not the equipment but the operator. A poor workman will always blame his tools!!!!!!!!

But a good workman has good tools, therefore, yes I was a bad workman because I chose a bad tool. Oops, my mistake. Now I have a good tool. No thanks to AAA.

Keep those lines coming chubley. They're great :hmm:

Sean Dillon says it all...

Please keep lines like that comin! - their killin' me!!!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The CAA don't care about the customer satisfaction of flying schools.

You'd have more luck with the Consumer Protection Council or Watchdog than with the CAA. To be fair to the people of the CAA they have a massive complex industry to regulate and only so many resources. They have bigger fish to fry at the end of the day than disgruntled FTO customers.

I suspect their view is that word will spread and this will result in effect self regulation. As many in the CAA read these pages perhaps I hear the sounds of sage nodding..

Cheers

WWW

[Aircart]

www- I second that.

It would be very difficult to prove to CPC etc.
The FTO would just say that the student had poor flying skills and that The FTO had helped them overcome the problem after a few thousand pounds had been exchanged.

You could also argue that level 7-10 turbulence on the sim really isn't a way of helping the student!!:eek:


Cheers for now :)

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Absolutely.

The CAA aren't interested in this area of operation of the flying schools. They are purely a regulatory authority.

Hopefully this forum is serving as a way of providing better services for all those people about to part with their precious money.

[Fingerbang]

And for those who are prepared to listen to what their CFI is telling them

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Very narrow view fingerbang.

That's making two assumptions. The CFI gives credit and respect to the student and he/she knows what they are talking about. Wild claims and constant critisicm of themselves and other pilots around certainly don't help the student listen. Technically human nature per se captain.

Since day 1 I listened to my CFI's, but when information started conflicing I went with my majority view, which is holding me strong today. For me, AAA was not the majority view.

[jonyson]

with nearly 4900 people viewing this thread, i was wondering, where to look, to see how many more people would have to look at it, to make it a pprune record:O

[pink flamingo]

It is quite interesting
how this thread has built up so many funs.

Is this is the only way we can make thing change in this business.

Triple AAA it is now time you start giving a proper service and demonstrate if at the end you can offer a good standard of training.

At this point i wondered and ask:

IS TRIPLE A A ONE OFF or FTOs are seriously taking advantage of their customers?

To my personal experience i do believe the standards are quite low and average of first CPL pass but, mainly IR are very low.

I would sincerly interested on your point of view.

Kind regards
PF

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Here Here, well said pink flamingo

[RVR800]

At The end of the day a lot of this Flying Instuction
Malarky seems to be about

'training by assessment'

What do I mean by that - well its a process that consists
of some bloke sitting next to you or behind you in the
sim assessing you not teaching you.....

There's very little in tha way of training materials of any sort
for the IR - why not have a Video of the chief Examiner at the
CAA flying a test route and showing us how it shoul be done

The reason it isnt done is because a lot of it is contentious and
they prefer the easy option of sitting there saying

'you didnt do this you forgot to do that .... ' etc

[40 yearflyer]

By the time a student has reached the twin IR phase it is all about 'coaching' and not 'basic flying instruction'. Or so it should be. However, under pressure, and perhaps a sketchy background at PPL or even CPL Skill Test stage the basics may not so good and the frustration of an IR Instructor is when he has to teach how to level off properly. (either from the climb or the descent) This is wasted time for the student and very expensive for the twin and gets in the way of 'Top of Climb checks', handling the r/t and keeping the Log. (and any number of other things).
Most students at this stage hate it if the Instructor takes control and 'demonstrates' as if this is wasted money. (It isn't because one good demonstration is worth a thousand words).
With all these 'pulling' against teaching it is no wonder that the 'assessment' method is used. It is even possible to carry a list of items on a IR profile that should be completed satisfactorily and tick off those done and cross those badly done or omitted.Using these 'tick/cross sheets it becomes apparent from repetitive crosses if the student has a retention problem or more likely an aptitude problem. However, this is a cold blooded approach and a good de-brief is more to most students liking.
Just to get back to basics 'why do we have the 'airwork section' in the IR? It wastes the student's money, puts a strain on the tired old aircraft and has been assessed at the CPL Skill Test.

[Delta Echo Bravo]

Absolutely, GH is a waste of time and money, and I agree with what you said 40 yearflyer, this is a cold blooded approach, but there is a big big difference between cold blooded and ruthless. There is also a big difference between coaching and plainly destroying a student.

Also, instructors often blame students for lack of retention, but this is unfair in many cases. It often isn't lack of retention, but more a case of too many words.

....one good demonstration is worth a thousand words....

But 100 words can be more valuable. Instructors that waffle on and on and on, using analogies about spinning plates and race horses, while charging through the nose for their time after the students been crammed full of this rubbish for the last 12 hours, it's 9 pm and the students hungry... GIVE IT UP. Thats not what instruction is about.

Also instructors that "psyche" you up as your attempting to intercept an ILS, or on vectors for the NDB. SHUT UP!!! Teach. Provide short simple tips/instructions, but don't waffle on and on. You know that an experienced pilot is already at 75-90% capacity, let alone a student, who on the ground would require at least 60% capacity to understand the complicated explanation you're giving them.

Instruction is difficult I'm sure, and not a job I envy and from the posts on PPRuNE, becoming more evident to me that there are very few good instructors around. I wish I understood that when I first started down the tight-rope of piloting. I certainly wouldn't have gone the Triple 'A' way. Oh well, live and learn.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Its not easy being an instructor you know.

They are managing a lot of different things in that flight. The pupil, the aircraft, the next 5 minutes, the next lesson, the last, the weather conditions. Trust me, good slick IR training is very demanding to deliver. Very. Many pilots can fly well IFR - not that many can teach it well.

Nevertheless the standards generally in the UK are high.

Cheers

WWW

[carbonfibre]

WWW

I agree that teaching is the main aim and a lot of instructors do it very well, i believe that like many things it is a minority that ruin the industry. However i started my IR training at one school and it was obvious before long that they were not very good (at the instruction).

After 27 hours and unable to do holds or fly straight and level accuratly with them i made the plunge and swapped training providers and within 1.5 hours the guy had me sorted, because of instruction and nothing else, it is an amazing difference between a good teacher and bad. I am prepared to name them too if anyone wants them please pm if you want that info.

But the owner of this paticular school seems to employ people that are similar in personallity to him, or lack of i should say, has had several people walk out, explain to him but still does nothing about it.

Even 1 of the instructors there told me to take my business elsewhere, and there are not many people who have had a pass there and funnily enough always over budget. Also during December 2003 they put a student forward for test and they even said he was'nt ready but signed his 170a, to me they should be shot for that. But as people have already pointed out its there word against the student.

Good patient IR instructors are like gold dust, but im certainly happy with the one i had:ok:

[RVR800]

As an instructor one has, as Delta Echo Bravo says, to try and keep explanations short and concise.

This is very difficult and junior instructors are often guilty of trying to show how clever they are - by just talking too much. This can tire the student out especially after a long day.

It is very difficult however to distill down instructional points
to a minimum. The CFS guys I have found are very good at this - minimal bull - of course they are very talented people and not all instructors benefit from their background

In short a lot of verbage is not good when one is at near capacity

Instructional styles vary but my experience of instructing is
that there is too much 'training by assessment' The guy on the right is fearful of taking over because the student is paying.
Actually the student is paying to be taught not assessed though! Teaching can be delivered in many ways but demonstration is critical especially with advanced flying training.

There is I feel too little demonstration, and minimal use of computing technology and videos to cater for varying learning styles at many flying schools. Of course a lot of this has to do with how instructors are paid. They are not paid to get you through quickly. They are paid only when the sim or the aircraft is running. As soon as the brakes are off they are lining their pockets. I am instructor as well - so don't shoot me - its just that unlike a teacher in other fields an instructor is generally not paid for long briefings or making videos or anything other than flying...
This 'payment whilst in the air philosophy' reduces quality and efficiency of the whole flying training industry.

What would be good is a video of FCL or an FI or the student doing a circuit etc. themselves so that one can watch and learn or is that too much to ask?