Take the Gamble ???

[Speedbird843]

Dear All,

Firstly let me introduce myself, I am currently 31 and living in the UK. I have a CAA PPL (N) with approx. 80hrs TT. I am at that crossroads in life where I need to decide on my future career.

1. Do I stay in my current employment for the next 30years+ wondering if I could of made the grade commercially?

- or -

2. Do I take the gamble and train for my CPL/IR, MCC, 40 hrs 737 (JOT) training on the new OAT Airline Preperation Program and some £50-£60k debt?

I have been investigating all the relevant schools where I could possibly commence my fATPL training and it does seem OAT is proving to be the one. Obvioulsy the above will only take place on the basis of securing the HSBC Professional Graduate loan.

I have a few questions that I would like some assistance with.

Firstly is there anybody currently on the OAT APP course which is due to harvest its first graduates shortly, that could supply any advice / information? (i.e. how they managed to secure a HSBC loan or how they are finding the course, what do they aim for once completed) etc.

My real concern is finising the course and owing some £60k on a loan which will probably be secured on my house and not being able to find a decent paying career in aviation, don't get me wrong I have spent numerous hours trawling through this website and others reading some of the horror stories and some of the "what dreams are made of" not to be too naive on the whole subject and not to expect my life to pan out exactly how I would ideally hope for.

I have a massive passion and drive for aviation and aspiration to be a commercial pilot, so any assistance that anybody could offer will be much appreciated.

Thank you.

[Mr Magoo]

Here we go again, this question comes up more often than repeats of only fools and horses on the Beeb.

Listen mate, NO ONE can answer this question except you, you're a grown up now, so YOU decide if you want to jump or not.

Most of the "shall I shan't I?" posts are made by people who have already decided to do it but want a warm fuzzy feeling from the go for it brigade. I'm positive that you'll receive such postings so, hopefully, that'll give you the warm fuzzy feeling.

Similarly I'll get slated for being realistic about your chances of airline employment which, unless you have some SERIOUSLY good contacts in the industry or a large dose of luck, are slim to bugger all.

I sit back and await the go for it and slagging postings.

Magoo

[Speedbird843]

Thanks Mr. Magoo for your reply !!

Not entirely certain you needed to be so blunt and rude about matters, I am merely asking for assistance in this subject, however your opinion is your opinion and I respect that....

As previously mentioned I am under no illusions of employment not now or ever, but perhaps would expect some positive feedback to my questions rather than straight good old English sarcasm (don't want to start a slanging match on my first post, but please be slightly respectful) - thank you.

So if anyone else can still assist to the original questions I would be again very appreciative.

Thank you.

[kates]

Ok - not trying to hijack this thread, but a I've been filled with a deep urge to tell you a bit about our (the Swedish) pilot training system.

Don't get me wrong, we are a fully JAR-FCL complient country. However, we do have such a unique thing as CPL (fixed-wing) training completely free of charge through a university and through two upper secondary schools.

Firstly- the uni training consists of two intense years of integrated training resulting in a CPL ME IR MCC and a total of ca 280 hours which of 80 hours is ME time. This is really a first class training program. (If you ask me, probably the best civilan pilot training in the world) - these guys do it all, med. training, fysical training, under water training, cabin training, you name it, they do it)

The airlines (SAS) usually, untill 2001) used to hire grads immediately after graduations and put them thourgh type training.

This course won't cost you nada, nothing - in fact you will even receive study aid (approx., 330 USD on a montly basis) and you can borrow money for housing for a interest rate of 3% - which will be repaid in 25 years. Fantastic - YES, however as you can suspect - the competion is fierce and only some 24 students are accepted each year. The tests are the same as for those who apply for military pilot training (not medical, only appitude).

I also think Danes and Norwegian are allowed to apply for this training.

The other form of pilot training, also free of charge for the student, is carried out by two different upper secondary schools. Two of the three years the young students study at USS are devoted to a course which leads to a basic CPL VFR on a single engine piston a/c. The entry req. are far moore relaxed here (only a aptitude test and class 1 med.). When the students graduate they then can apply to a continuing course of one year - also completely free - which then leads to ME IR and MCC. Some 100 students annually gets accepted to these courses. The tax payers pays them all, even their licencing costs.

This is happening today - when 57 % of this countries pilots are unemployed.

And worst of all - helo pilot training, YOU GET NOTHING FOR FREE, in fact you can't even receive study aid or borrow money for nothing.

[Flypuppy]

Speedbird, you use the correct term; GAMBLE

Would you feel comfortable sitting at the roulette wheel with 60k riding on whether it comes up Red or Black? This flying gig looks good from the outside but once you are in it, it is a no holds barred roller-coaster ride.

It takes no prisoners on your finances and your relationships. No doubt there will be the barrage of "Go For It" messages, but those guys aren't spending your money.

Throw away the rose tinted spectacles about the glamour of flying. Think of this as a business venture, you are going to spend a large amount of money on a risky investment that will not give you a return on investment until at least year 5 (assuming you get a job within 3-6 months of completing training).

If you think I am being as harsh as Mr Magoo, then get used to it, some of the de-briefs you will get during you flying will be even worse. You will have your confidence in your flying ability analysed with a microscope.

Just another wee point, why the APP course? Modular will get you the same bits of paper and save you enough to buy a type rating (if you really feel the need to buy one)

Maybe I am just cynical though.

[redsnail]

I'm with Pups here.
OK, you're 31 and you do have a chance to make the money back.
I wouldn't go with Oxford's APP programme only because I don't think it gives you any thing more than a good modular course would.
Whatever you do, don't get suckered into believing the glossy brochures of any school without applying the same questions you would to buying a house. You can sell a house, you can't sell a log book.... (unless you're a 737 TRE...)
What you MUST realise is that unless you move very quickly time is possibly against you. Now you are going to spend the cash that would have set you up for retirement.
If I were you, I would go modular (but do it full time) IF you can afford it without going into debt.
If you are going into significant debt, rethink your strategy.
I don't want your money, I don't need your business, I am not posting to feather your dream. I just don't want to see you 55 or 60 with **** all to fund your pension.
Put your emotions aside and think as an accountant would. You have to. No one else will.

Good luck.

[cliste]

Its all been said before ! you will get as many posts saying go for it as against others saying dont part with your money.

The best advice is be pragmatic the probability of you getting a job in a RHS are stacked against you. if it was a commercial decision you would not do it but its not a commercial decision is it.

The modular approach seems to me to be your best option or better still look at Spain integrated prices they are very competitive also.

Only you can answer the question posed are you a Gambler ?


Cliste

[scroggs]

Read this thread: Reference thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=131649). I put a good deal of work into collating threads which can help to answer some of your questions.

Scroggs

[Desk-pilot]

Speedbird,

I was in a similar position to you - well paid but ultimately boring office job, have wanted to be a pilot since aged 4. Resigned from office job aged 33 in Sept 2002. Waited for outcome of Gulf War before starting Oxford APP in mid 2003. First lot of groundschool exams passed with 89% average after shedloads of work (and I mean more work than you imagine!) 107 hrs and CPL skills test thoroughly enjoyable (if frustrating at times) and then back into classroom for phase 2. I know talking to course colleagues that all of us have got seriously fed up with groundschool and struggled to motivate ourselves especially in phase 2. When you're knee deep in those ATPL books it can be hard to see the bigger picture and you can wonder why you started this in the first place.

Make no mistake even just getting through the course is very tough, there will be days when you'll look back on a cushy office job with evenings free to go to the pub, see the girlfriend etc and money to spend and wonder what the heck possessed you!

Do I regret doing it? No I don't at the moment, I have had some amazing experiences flying, met some good people and enjoyed some of the academic stuff. Ask me in 6 months time and my answer will depend entirely on my employment situation. I still absolutely love aviation and flying and this course has only served to confirm that.

It's not an easy decision to make but what finally clinched it for me was the fear of being an old man wondering what might have been. You need to ask yourself the same question. When you're 65 what do you want to be able to say you did with your life?

Good luck,

Desk pilot

[Bobby Guzzler]

If you don't try you don't get!

There must be countless people out there who thought about a career in aviation but never put it all on the line to persue a dream. Don't wake up as a 50 y/o office worker wondering what if, even if it doesn't work out fantastically like everyone expects, at least you'll know what would have happened.

It is a gamble - just if you do go for it set your sights high, have to be good to get a job at the mo. And another thing, what you put in you will eventually get out (spend wisely and pay full money for it). There are still quite a few 250hr guys getting airline jobs despite what impressions you may get from some of the forums. :)

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Hi Speedbird

Some good replies here, particularly from pups, scroggs and Mr Magoo. I've seen posts from them before and they talk a lot of sense.

I seem to spend hours in these forums justifying to myself why I was right (and I know I was right) to opt out of borrowing the cash to "go for it" at the last minute. I will probably only lay the ghost to rest when my mates all graduate and don't get jobs. Might feel a bit of a prune (excuse the pun) if an airline snaps them all up fresh from the champagne party.

My honest opinion - I've heard far too many stories of failure down this route to believe that things will all be fine if you just ignore the facts and take the gamble.

You know what? I'm seriously tempted by an article in one of the mags this week. Why don't we all just forget the stress and start enjoying our flying again? Air racing has got to be the way to go. You'd only need another 20 hours and then you can start the training! Great fun, and you get to keep your income (well, some of it!), go flying and still have your evenings and weekends free!

There's a lot of cussing of office jobs. Actually, being as it's summer, I quite like the 9-5 job I have now, because I get to lie in the sun of an evening sipping red wine and looking up at the boys and girls turning 090 towards Heathrow and think "You poor buggers!".

Remember Richard Branson's got an office job, and he gets to fly all the things he wants whenever he wants and still have money to spend in the bar.

Hope it all works out for you.

[Speedbird843]

Hi All,

Thank you very much for your helpful replies.

I have been investigating all options available to me very carefully over the past week or so and have come to the conclusion that the 'modular' route (dont want to start a big debate over this) would put me in a more financial stable situation costing some £32k in total, and allows me to continue working whilst studying - dont get me wrong I am positive that this will be one very difficult situation to juggle, but it is possible?

My decision for training is as follows:-

ATPL Distance learning from OAT
hour building whilst studying
CPL/ME/MEIR from BCFT
MCC & JOT from OAT

Just the final HSBC budget plan to provide to the very nice bank manager and away we go !!

Cheers

PHIL

[Flypuppy]

Whatever you budget add 20%. If you need to use it no dramas, if you don't use it, then its party time.... ;)

If you do your MCC with someone like Jetlinx (http://www.jetlinx.co.uk/) then you may find that the JOT is overkill.

Have you visited a number of schools to make sure you like the feel of the ones you have selected? Remeber it is your money you are spending and it is a fair old wedge, so be sure you like the "look and feel" of the places you are going to be spending all that filthy luker. One other thing, never pay up front.

All the best.

[TRon]

If you are going distance learning I think most would agree Bristol is the place to go.

I think you are wise to go for modular. Why dont you look into Astraeus' that gives you a type rating and 200 hours on the line also? I have heard anything about it, just saw it in a magazine.

I read in the back of Pilot that Oxford's APP have in 6 weeks placed with 6 major airlines.

I would like to see the stats to back up those claims. Also, there will be a few modular guys amongst those 'placed' !

[JB007]

Best post i've read in ages on this subject Mr Magoo - it's spot on!

And Flypup's advice is excellent, we both went to the same school so i'm guessing we both paid the same amount for a CPL/Multi!!! - he speaks complete sense...well worth noting..

This is a commitment like no other, one you'll wonder why you started it time and time again...but it's so bl**dy worth it!!!
I was, as Mr Magoo put it, one of those with:
some SERIOUSLY good contacts and I managed to secure a Jet RHS on the first week of my IR course back in March (IR Test - now that was pressure!!!) I did the modular route and my total hours are not great - if I can do it, anyone can....

[Flypuppy]

he speaks complete sense

Could someone tell that to my wife?

[Mr Magoo]

Why thank you JB007, I'm most flattered. Any chance of you using those SERIOUSLY good contacts of yours just one more time to get old Magoo here an interview? :}

[piperindian]

>Similarly I'll get slated for being realistic about your chances of airline employment which, unless you have some SERIOUSLY good contacts in the industry or a large dose of luck, are slim to bugger all.

I will second that but i would also not advice any low-timer to go for a JAR fATPL post 9-11
There are too many jet type-rated and experienced pilots on the market looking for a job.
Dont count too much on contacts or luck