ATPL'S STUDY dilemma

[geraldn]

I am now very close to actually having to choose a school where to do my atpl's (modular full-time).i know this might have been asked alot of times but as long as we wannabes keep popping up ,this question will never cease.

IS IT REALLY WORTH DOSHING OUT EXTRA CASH TO GO AND DO YOUR ATPL'S AT A SCHOOL LIKE OXFORD OR JEREZ WHEN U CAN PAY LESS AND GO TO OTHER SCHOOLS WHICH ARE NOT AS POPULAR BUT DO GET GOOD REVIEWS??

i am not asking another version of the typical question''where is the best place to do your atpl's?'' but simply trying to cutdown on options and finally make a decision.
Cheers

[deTrix75]

Just find a school where you like the staff, much will depend on them.

[OneIn60rule]

Will not care where you have done your ATPL theory.
If you can do your ATPL theory for less money and get the same quality of training then you should do just that.


As long as I've been in these forums all I've heard about Bristol, AFT, Naples, Oxford is all good.

Not saying that IFTA (if that's it's name) is worse or better, merely that these schools seem to have a good name.


For your own benefit I suggest using the SEARCH option on this forum and type in school names and see what is said about them.


Hope you find what you want and gl on your career.

[geraldn]

Thank you for your replies,but i think i misled people with my last comment.

What i am really asking is WHETHER IN THE CASE OF ATPL GROUNDSCHOOL ,DO U ACTUALLY GET WHAT U PAY FOR OR DO SOME SCHOOLS LIKE OXFORD ARE MORE EXPENSIVE COZ OF THEIR REPUTATION AS BEING BEING ONE OF THE BEST SCHOOLS(MY OPINION)
CHEERS

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Hi

The problem here is that we don't know what your end goal is.

If you want to fly jets for an airline, it ain't gonna make much difference because no-one can really answer that right now. But if it's something more specific elsewhere in the food chain, it could make all the difference in the world.

Best of luck

[Alex Whittingham]

I think you get what you pay for. A full time sit down ATPL course should cost £3500 to £5500 or it will lose money. If we (bristol) did one I'd price it at the top end of that bracket. If the course you are offered is priced under that level, ask yourself why.

On the second half of your question, no-one will care where you trained, at all.

[geraldn]

thanks again for the replies guys.
STRAIGHT&LVL: MY END GOAL IS TO GO ALL THE WAY IN CIVIL AVIATION,HAVING SAID THAT ONE MUST NOT FORGET THE SITUATION THIS INDUSRTRY IS IN REGARDING EMPLOYMENT."I WOULD FLY ANYTHING"(with a valid CofA) :p


Alex BGS:Thank you for your post ,it was the one that came closer to answering my question:ok:


CHEERS

[NinjaBill]

The Full Time/Home Study option is one that will depend on your personal circumstances, and study habits. Although I would have prefered to go on a full time course, as I find it esier to learn this way, I currently have a full time job, and other commitments, which makes this inpractical. I therefore chose the distance learning course with BristolGS, after visiting there, and using the mightly useful search (http://www.pprune.org/forums/search.php?s=) function in pprune, and have my first set of exams booked for November.

With respect to the prices, distance learning costs do not vary by more that a couple of hundred quid, and, are excellent value considering the 4 weeks courses included, so i would not consider this a significant factor in choice of school.

If you are going to stay for an extended period at a residential school, then you really need to visit before splashing the cash, and since residential was not an option available to me, I have not visited any of the schools, or done any reearch in this area, so I am unable to comment in this area.

Regards

NB

PS, please get your CAPS LOCK KEY fixed it SEEMS TO get randomly STUCK ON.

[Keith.Williams.]

There is no logical reason to assume that high prices mean high quality or that low prices mean low quality. In many cases there is no direct link between the two.

More importantly, if you assume that you must pay high prices to get high quality you will miss some very good deals. As an example of what I mean, there is a scheme whereby FTOs can get what is effectively a government grant for each student they teach. This enables the price of a full time groundschool ATPL course to be reduced by up something like £1600. The school's profit margin is not changed so there is no reason for them to reduce their costs or the quality of the course provided.

At the end of the day prospective students must look very carefully at the offers of the various schools. They must then make a balanced judgement of which school best suits their needs.

[Peggy Murphy]

Keith was correct in what he said...........'look very carefully at what all the schools have to offer' however he forgot to mention that when it comes to Bournemouth..........GO AROUND!!!!!!!

[Alex Whittingham]

I think Keith is partly right. High prices do not mean high quality but the corollory is certainly true, low prices do mean low quality. There will be a reason why the prices are low, and it ain't altruism.

[geraldn]

although i appreciate Keith.Williams post ,i have to agree with Alex if i understood him correctly,if it so happens as Keith.Williams said ''there is a scheme whereby FTOs can get what is effectively a government grant for each student they teach'' in this case i think that the FTO's use the money granted to them to go into their bank accounts and not to lower their fees as after all they are running a business and IMHO there is no room for altruism in business.

[Peggy Murphy]

Geraldn........I could'nt have said it better myself. How many government grants would you need in order to purchase a red Toyota Celica???????? C'mon Keith! That was a poor attempt at promoting so called competitive prices. A Leopard never changes its spots. Go Around..... I say again.....Go Around.

[Keith.Williams.]

I am aware of only three UK FTOs that are registered for this scheme. All of these have used it to reduce or limit their prices.
All three have prices significantly lower than non-participating schools. This is not simply an altruistic action, but is intended to increase the market share of the schools involved.

Sadly PEGGY MURPHY would rather exercise her uncontrollable urge to do harm to a school at which she has never studied rather than to allow potential students to benefit from the government grants scheme. She no doubt considers that any harm that she might do to other students in pursuing her vendetta is the responsibility of others.

GERALDN, the simple fact is that if you are unwilling to learn about this scheme you will inevitably pay a higher price for your training. At the very least you should investigate it before making your decision. Some schools may use the scheme to line their pockets, but others will not.

[geraldn]

KeithW.;i am not unwilling to learn about the scheme ,but u have to understand that it seems pretty odd that only 3 FTOs are registered for this scheme,im sorry for being a sceptic but why is it so?

Peggy; why such contempt for Bournemouth? ,u may PM with your reasons if you want.

Cheers

[Keith.Williams.]

GERALDN
Your question is the equivalent of asking why was there initially only one low cost airline. Quite simply because the others either did not understand that it was possible, or (in some cases) did not want it to become possible. But once the customers recognised the value of the idea, a larger number of suppliers took it up.

For many years only two schools have used the scheme. Both are colleges of further/higher education. It was only when we investigated the subject that it became apparent to us that all FTOs could use it. We are simply the first. Provided students are prepared to insist on benefiting from the grant money, all FTOs will eventually join. But if students swallow the low cost = low quality line, the grant money will stay in the pockets of the government and students will continue to pay more than they need to.

This scheme can only benefit students. But it involves effort on the part of the FTOs to register. So some will be unwilling to take it up unless student pressure makes them do so.

If you wish to understand what Peggy Murphy is doing you should do a search for his preveious posts. Then ask yourself how many of them have been constructive contributions to the forum.

[Alex Whittingham]

OK, I'll bite. When I looked at this scheme it was clearly stated that the grant money was only available to non-profit making organisations. Admittedly that was two years ago but I don't imagine its changed. How did you get round that?

[Keith.Williams.]

Well at least we are now getting somewhere in that you have admitted that the scheme exits ALEX.

Could it be that your failure to find a way of using it is due (at least in part) to your stated view that "low prices do mean low quality"?

As I said in my earlier post, this is a system by which the FTOs can reduce the prices they charge their students without any need to reduce their costs or quality. All of the FTOs are aware of the system, very few have taken the trouble to make it work.

[Alex Whittingham]

I would very much like to get a grant for our students. The only problem is that, on my reading, 'the scheme', only works if you are part of a Further Education (FE) College or University. This allows you to pick up government funding and also not charge VAT. The disadvantage of 'the scheme' is that, according to the CAA's rules, the FE College are now the FTO and they are sub-contracting the training to the groundschool provider. As the FTO the FE College should hold the approvals. In your case they don't seem to.

I am intrigued as to how you have managed to make the scheme work. Please expand. Have the CAA approved the commercial relationship? Have they agreed that Bournemouth & Poole FE College don't need approval? Are you charging VAT? If not, have the local VAT office agreed the VAT treatment is correct? If you have managed to get round these hurdles I think the whole industry will benefit, it's quite exciting.

Sorry to get off topic geraldn, this is fascinating!

[Keith.Williams.]

I'm sure you do not really expect me to give you the product of almost a years work by lawyers and accountants ALEX.

[Alex Whittingham]

Seems to me you have to be transparent about whether or not you're charging VAT and I would think it's both courteous and sensible to confirm the CAA have approved the way you're operating.

[geraldn]

although this thread has certainly gone off topic,it is still interesting to see where all this is heading.



P.S any more contributions regarding the original topic will be greatly appreciated.(see below)



'[ATPL'S STUDY dilemma
I am now very close to actually having to choose a school where to do my atpl's (modular full-time).i know this might have been asked alot of times but as long as we wannabes keep popping up ,this question will never cease.

IS IT REALLY WORTH DOSHING OUT EXTRA CASH TO GO AND DO YOUR ATPL'S AT A SCHOOL LIKE OXFORD OR JEREZ WHEN U CAN PAY LESS AND GO TO OTHER SCHOOLS WHICH ARE NOT AS POPULAR BUT DO GET GOOD REVIEWS??

i am not asking another version of the typical question''where is the best place to do your atpl's?'' but simply trying to cutdown on options and finally make a decision.
Cheers]'

[Alex Whittingham]

Cat got your tongue? I'm going to push you here, Keith. Let me make it easy:

My name is Keith Williams. EPTA do/do not charge VAT on our groundschool courses.

(A) Do
(B) Do not

Concerning the relationship between EPTA and Bournemouth & Poole College of Further Education:

The CAA have always been kept up to date about our business relationship, are aware that we are claiming government grants through Bournemouth and Poole College and have agreed no change to our approvals is required.

(A) True
(B) False

[Alex Whittingham]

Such simple questions. Isn't it surprising how hard it is to answer? Come on, Keith. Your company's credibility is being challenged here.

[Peggy Murphy]

How many more times do I have to say......'I TOLD YOU SO' Im sick and tired of people having a go at me just because I tell the truth on this forum. I wish you people would wake up and smell the coffee. Nothing has changed apart from a few letters.......SFT/EPTA..........EPTA/SFT...... Keith I think you should pass the shovel back to Colin.

Alex, its nearly time at the bar!!! What are you having??????

[Alex Whittingham]

Come on Keith. You only have to say that the CAA have been fully informed about your changing business relationship and have agreed that no change to your approvals is required.

Thumbs down, to the wolves.

[geraldn]

PEGGY&ALEX :if i understood correctly KEVIN W. represents Bournemouth. if not Please enlighten me on what really is going on.

Peggy; the reason i asked u to pm me was so that u could tell me what really are your reasons for posting against Bournemouth , as i am not sure i am fully understanding what is being said.
:confused:

[Alex Whittingham]

Gerald Keith, not Kevin, Williams is the de facto CGI of EPTA in Bournemouth although he ultimately answers to another CGI, Paul Hardie of Cabair. Both are gentlemen of the old school which might explain Keith's silence in this matter. Peggy is extremely cross about something, doubtless he/she will explain.

[geraldn]

thanks for the info ALEX ,so EPTA have got nothing to do with BCFT in Bournemouth.Sorry about the name mix up but its already 24:30 here in Malta.:zzz:

[Alex Whittingham]

No, they're a different school, Send Clowns is cackling in the wings. And would you mind not typing my name in capitals? thats a Keith Williams thing!

[geraldn]

HeHe.. sure alex .

b.t.w. thank you for the P.M.

[Alex Whittingham]

What was it Peggie? What really stirred your spuds?

[Peggy Murphy]

Stirred my Spuds!!!!!!!!!! At 00:25 that actually made me chuckle. Ah well..... at least we've got a good rugby team Alex. I feel a joke coming on..... Keith Alex Peggy and Send Clowns walked into a bar......................................................... ............................................................ ............................................................ ...........................:ok:

[Keith.Williams.]

ALEX you really must cool down. I can understand Peggy's problem, she stopped taking her medication long ago.

You appear to be basing your arguments on two assumptions. The first is that the scheme is impossible to use and the second is that it inevitably enables the trainig to be zero-rated for VAT.

I think that you will find that to overcome the first problem you must do a trade-off with the second. But students still gain a great deal.

Given your highly agitated state I am sure that you have by now called the CAA to "voice your concerns". Well if that the case then we will soon find out whether or not you are correct.

[Alex Whittingham]

I'm not remotely agitated, Keith. I am just asking you to answer two simple questions. Can we infer that the answer to the first:

EPTA do/do not charge VAT on our groundschool courses.

(A) Do
(B) Do not

is (A) and to the second:

Concerning the relationship between EPTA and Bournemouth & Poole College of Further Education:

The CAA have always been kept up to date about our business relationship, are aware that we are claiming government grants through Bournemouth and Poole College and have agreed no change to our approvals is required.

(A) True
(B) False

is (B)?

[High Wing Drifter]

Would I be off the mark if I thought this thread is getting a little unseemly?

[Alex Whittingham]

You're right. I'll shut up.

[Keith.Williams.]

ALEX
As you are no doubt aware, my only reason for delaying in replying to your questions was that I wished to ensure that my reply was entirely true (I rather prefer it that way).

I was not actually involved in the negotiations with the CAA, so I did not know exactly what had or had not been agreed. Having investigated the matter I can now confirm that the CAA are entirely happy with what we are doing and the manner in which we are doing it.

I can also confirm that in order to avoid the problems that you encountered, we were obliged to take a route that made it impossible to provide the training at zero-VAT. In order to ensure that students did not suffer any loss, we simply reduced our price such that the VAT-added price is equal to what it would have been when zero-VAT rated.

So you see, it is entirely possible to obtain the grants for your students, but you will need to do some work to bring it about. I hope that your are successful in doing so. Prices in this business are far too high and we should all do everything we can to reduce them. As I said in my original contribution to this string, there is no direct link between price and quality.

PEGGY MURPHY,
Sorry PEGGY but as usual, you were much too eager to assume the worst. The fact is that EPTA has once again managed to provide outstanding value for its students. But go and have a beer anyway.....then for god's sake get back on the medication you are becoming more unstable every day.

[Send Clowns]

Thank you for clearing up the confusion, Alex. I certainly would not want the EPTA to be confused with BCFT or BFC just because they are in Bournemouth too.

[BillieBob]

Now that we have the unseemly catfight out of the way, let's consider the reality.

The CAA should be concerned only with an organisation's compliance with the requirements of JAR-FCL. How that organisation arranges its finances should be of no interest to the Authority provided that it can be shown that the financial arrangements in place at the time of an approval/re-approval inspection are adequate to support the organisation's plans for the forthcoming year, in accordance with IEM No.2 to JAR-FCL 1.055.

How an organisation arranges its funding of individual students and any arrangement that it comes to with external training providers should be of no interest whatsoever to the CAA.

The funding is available, the fact that some organisations cannot understand that availability is unfortunate, if not entirely surprising.

[Keith.Williams.]

SEND CLOWNS,

You appear to have forgotten the private advice I gave you following our recent exchange of views in this forum. "Don't attack EPTA and I will not attack BCFT". I'm sure that the readers of this forum would be greatly relieved if we were both to follow this path.

But for once we agree on something.

I and the rest of the staff at EPTA would not wish to be confused with BCFT. After all, EPTA is the school that has cracked the code for getting government grants for our students, whereas BCFT provides no such grants.


BILLIEBOB
Your views and those of the CAA are in complete agreement.

Now hopefully all of the schools will stop arguing and get to work in obtaining grants for their students. As I have said previously in this thread, prices in this industry are far too high and there is no direct link between prices and quality.

[Send Clowns]

Kieth, where is the attack? :confused: You appear to be the one in that habit here. I would appreciate an apology for your comment, accusing me of making an attack.