If the big boys don't want us.....

[acrophobicpilot]

...why can't we make our own employment?

I've been talking to a friend about starting a cargo/passenger service in the East Midlands. Miles of red tape and an infinity of bureaucracy, but it can be done.

There's an issue with the AOC, but that should be sorted by Spring 2005. What do you guys/gals think?

[nosewheelfirst]

Start with a large fortune...

Would be interesting to see if you can make it work however i think it would be difficult to run and fly for your own carrier.

Good Luck!

[High Wing Drifter]

Funny but I have been wondering the same thing! Make the right arrangements and apart from the hard work and stress I don't see any major problems in the actual setup of the organisation. Once the paperwork and approval is sorted then all you need now is some customers...the really really really (draws breath) really hard bit.

Also, so long as you have a reasonably compelling business case then, apart from using you house as a bond of commitment, I don't think you would actually need to provide any money.

[Straightandlevel80kt]

My initial reaction is to laugh as hard as I can and praise you for being completely bonkers and the best comedian I've ever seen on Pprune.

But that wouldn't be very nice, open-minded or in the true spirit of entrepreneurialism, so I'm prepared to hear you out.

How exactly would this work? Aside from your dad being Bernie Ecclestone, Mr. Gold or Sheihk Mohammed?

Seriously... I've tried my own business before, so I am genuinely curious.

[Autofly]

HWD,

apart from the hard work and stress I don't see any major problems

.... with an attitide like that mate, you`ll go far in this business but this does seam a little far fetched.

I have a friend who wanted to do the same by buying a DC3 and doing freelance cargo ....... that would have been hard work and stress too.

If you guys can make it work, i´ll buy you all several pints!!!

[High Wing Drifter]

Well, talk is cheap after all. However, having watched countless reality TV shows the one single quality that seems to mark out the success stories from the apathetic and the failures is complete and utter ignorance. If they only had an inkling of the sh1t they were unleashing upon selves they would have panicked long ago :\

Where your mate is going wrong is actually buying something. The magic words are "wet lease". Low start-up costs exchanged for moderate running costs in the short term. Get your investor's money earning money ASAP (or not as the case may be)

:uhoh:

[Alex Whittingham]

You should do it. Faint hearts never did win fair maids. Most people will find a reason not to do it then, when you it all works out for you, they'll say you were lucky. Mind you, when it comes crashing round your ears they'll be the first to say ' I told you so..'

[High Wing Drifter]

Hmm. How do I tell my wife? "Darling, change of plan. Forget the £20K spent on flying so far. I'm just need you to sign here on the deed or this nice bloke won't lend me a million." DONG! The frying pan is now HWD shaped!

[retro cowboy]

Guys,

I thought about exactly the same thing, running cargo from E.Mids to Edin. I even had the business sorted (trade that is) but the amount of crap you have to go through plus all of the horror stories of some people spending 100k just to get an aoc not the official 12kish (inc one plane). Obviously I didn't bother in the end which is a shame because I was on to a real money maker.

My advice is to get into a charter firm for a few years, see how they do it and they try it, not before! Or you can just ignore me, I think most people do!

[OneMileHigh]

There doesn't seem to be much enthusiasm for this idea. I wonder if Juan Tripp had similar responses when he had a vision?

So of the more positive ilke out there: How would you contemplate a small start up operation? Wher would you base it and what aeroplane would you use.

Perhaps this thread should be expanded on a more positive note with ideas being thrashed out until we can arrive at a reasonable picture of how it might be.

How about this for starters:

Cessna Caravan leased, either wet or dry, operating ad-hoc cargo into small local aerodromes close to both the consignor and consignee. Would it work?

[High Wing Drifter]

I thought about the Caravn too. I dismissed it thinking that others with more resources would get in on the act and hence a new guys had nothing 'new' to offer. However, I also realise how slow existing business are to react to change. For that reason it has merit as a start-up could setup specifically to use that equpment and the 'low' costs it entails.

I agree with Alex's faint hearts view. Tis a big step though! Lets see if I actually pass ops procs :\

Single pilot is good too. Can you imagine the CRM issues with the boss being the junior F/O!

[eagerbeaver]

caravan would be good, low (ish) DOC good payload and range, most importantly single pilot IFR. You will find aircrafts fill up very quickly, so you need to be sure of what you are transporting i.e no furkin great boxes etc. Also on a larger scale but relativly cheap is the shorts 360, good for those short night hops.
There are not that many aircraft that are suitable for what you have in mind.

Also to consider, you need a tonne of cash probably £200'000 + to cover all costs and payments for aircraft and at least 3 months trading without earning a bean.

To conclude, its not a smart idea simply because it is financially out of reach for 99% of people. You wont get credit from a bank, and to make matters worse the price of oil is rising which will seriously affect your bottom line.
Don't get desperate because to cannot secure a job it takes time. I am unemployed as well after my airline gave me the dagger.

[retro cowboy]

Thought that there were still leagal implications preventing a caravan single pilot IFR under public transport?
Missing a much needed second engine isn't it!

[High Wing Drifter]

Yes you are correct. Hence my view about the slowness of other organisations getting in on the act. Single engine certification is being resisted by the CAA but with the advent of EASA they may have to relent as some other JAR states are really pushing for it.

[JB007]

I don't wish to throw cold water on people's ideas but I do think a good old injection of realism is required here...

Are any of you aware of what it takes to set up and maintain a UK public transport operation. I'm guessing 'No'.

The Cessna Caravan is an amazing workhorse, works well for Fedex, but the chances of it getting public transport, IFR, single engine, single crew approval in the UK is not going to happen, despite what Bob Crowe at Cranfield will tell prospective buyers...

I thought about exactly the same thing, running cargo from E.Mids to Edin.
Obviously I didn't bother in the end which is a shame because I was on to a real money maker

You reckon! - Go and take a look through the window of BAC's ops room in Horley...and the UK Postal Service have insisted on CAT III jet's for a while now so the sort of business your looking at getting is what people are paying for to go by road at half the cost...but, in the whole big scheme of things, all this is just a minor point.

Getting a UK AOC and Route Licences issued is not just about getting the finance and throwing it at the SRG. The CPG will insist on approx. 3 months finance with no income behind you for a start. Here's a very rough list of just your day to day costs of running a P/T opertion:

Experienced AOC Post Holder Salaries - (won't get your AOC without these people!)
Crew Training and Renewals
Aircraft Insurance
Eurocontrol Fees
Airport Fees
Operations/Crew Control/JAR Ops Quality Systems
Maint. Contracts
Handling Contracts and I'm sure others can add to this....
The cost of the AOC itself is wide open - you will be charged for extra man-hours for anything the CAA insist on you re-writing/adding, the extra cost's alone have amounted to more than £15k in the past. And all this before your general business cost's and advertising/PR...

There are very few enthusiast's that are able to make a real go of it, Mr Branson and Mr Thomas (Air Wales) are 2 that spring to mind but both have huge personal wealth and business success behind them and even Mr Thomas has fallen foul of getting the wrong people to run his business for him recently that has cost him a small fortune, alot of it his own money.

[GARDENER]

Having set up a couple of companies (not aviation related) over the past two years I have lived the UK red tape BS nightmare time and time again......but I have succeeded where others have simply thought about it. Go for it! Is it not possible to join forces or live off someone else's AOC until established a la EZY and many others for that matter. I will not pretend I know much about AOC's etc but those in the know feel free to shoot that idea down!!
What you must take into account: Is this what I WANT to do or am I doing it because I currently can't get what I want? If it is airline you want then wait, it's tough but your time will come.

[Homer_J]

The other question is, what sort of airline do you want to set up.

At one end of the spectrum is Flybnw. They run from blackpool to the isle of man and back a few times a day in a chieftain(pa31). I guess they can probably take up to eight pax(to keep the weights under th limit), and I think on there website charge about 80 quid a go. So the costs will be fairly managable, and the start up would have been reasonable. The only problem is the passangers perception of hte aircraft. Ie small and noisy. But then its a small route, with business pax and general pax in winter and tourists in summer. According to the IOM website, I think the monthly figures for that route are just over a thousand in winter and more in summer.

At the next level would be a small regional model. Maybe one or two 20ish seater aircraft on about a 30 - 45min route. the cheapest way to start this up I would guess would be to wet lease. You pay a fixed hourly rate and get aircraft, crew, maitenance, insurance(acmi). Your overheads then would just be fuel, staff, handling, landing fees, euro charges, pax tax, coffee(lots of), etc. if your aircraft has 19 seats or under, I dont think you need cabin crew, which again reduces your costs. an example would be flykeen. (again surprisingly out of blackpool)

The next aircraft of choice from there would be an atr 42. cheapish running costs, and its well established as a regional airline.

The main points, as with any business are to research your market, and work out how to cater for it.

Find a route which has little or no competition, and which could carry about 50 pax each day, each way. will they mostly be toursit, business, or locals who are willing to pay up to 100 pounds because the local transport(buses, trains) are unrelable or infrequent.

how will you sell your tickets. Over the internet? Through travel agents? your own reservations office(or use the services of another call center).

What about marketing, and ticket pricing. Are you aiming towards the low cost end(people generally dont like paying 100 pounds when they can pay 50), or asking people to pay more, but offering a quality service?

If you were going to do this as a way to get a job flying airliners, then I wouldnt bother. After you've been working 18hrs a day organising and running the show for six months, the last thing you would want to do is get up at 6 in the morning to do 4 sectors. And what happens when an importat meeting comes up. You have to be there, and you cant change the times, but your due to fly. And to keep your cost down you are not employing pilots to sit around and fly if your busy. which you will be most of the time.

Anyways, Im off to feed the dog.

cheerio

[High Wing Drifter]

Personally, from a business point of view why fanny about with anything else. Just go straight to the ATR. Regional flying is in a boom and will continue to be so for a while yet (so says I :)). Also the fact that ATRs are now more fuel efficient than trains and cars on >200nm sectors says an awful lot about the prospects of regional aviation. However, that requires a Type A airline license and a downpayment/bond for a year's running costs to the CAA!!! Bit of a bugger that. A Type B license (<19 seats) is the only viable route.

However, my personal opinion is DO NOT BUY. LEASE! In the case of the ATR a wet lease. A new op can't afford to prat about with hiring and training flight and cabin crew. Once the route is established then think about a dry lease and hiring your own crew to reduce some of the burden and provide an opportunity to reduce costs...somewhere! But ALL crew hring starts with the Cheif Pilot. He will be the biggest asset in a new op...and hence potentially the biggest problem too.

Overall a PAX based op would be my preferred choice. I imagine there is little room for providing something a little different in cargo land. Once you have cut costs there is still alot you can do to ensure repeat business with PAX. Cargo isn't that chatty so I noticed.

If you were going to do this as a way to get a job flying airliners, then I wouldnt bother. The cool thing about life is you make one set of plans and then something better(?) and unexpected turns up :) But as I said before...talk is cheap.


P.S. Good luck with the Dog