FI (R) Job market at present

[lookoutbelow]

Hi guys, new to the instructor forum looking for some advice from you guys.

Just qualified with fATPL, ME IR etc etc. No sniff of an airline job since I finished the course in April suprise, suprise. I can't afford a shiny new B737/A320 rating and am really keen to remain flying in whatever capacity, as all the airline application forms I have seen seem to focus on recent flying hrs ie. last 3, 6 and 12 months flying totals.

I have always had the upmost respect for instructors, after all they managed to drag me through the various modules and I have always thought what a rewarding job it could be. My question is that if I was to go off and complete the FI (R) course in the next month or so, with my 260 Hrs what would be my chances of getting full time work. I live on the south coast but could pottentially relocate anywhere in the uk or overseas.

Any help / advice / pointers greatfully recieved.

lookoutbelow

[EL SID]

Lookoutbelow - I take it you would like to have an airline job in preference to anything else? So IMHO don’t bother with the FI (R) rating, because after you have spent the +/- £6000 on the rating you will be no closer to your goal than you are now. At the moment I know of people who have invested a type rating that are getting the airline jobs, regretfully over instructors who have 1000 to 1500 hours and no type rating. From the several airline captains I am in contact with 1000 plus hours in a C152 says little about the potential an individual has to succeed in the airline. Additionally you will be lucky to gross more than £12k p.a. in full time instruction, so the return on your £6k investment will be a long time coming, compared with the return on the type rating. I seem to recall reading a paper someone prepared as a cost benefit analysis on doing the type rating versus the FIC (I think it was in the IPA Newsletter a couple of months back) and it came out that the type rating route provided the best investment strategy.
Whilst you may lay out circa £21k for the type rating, the airline is still investing financially in completing your line training and induction, this like everything in aviation comes at a high price, money that they can ill afford to be waste in the cut-throat world of low cost fares these days. So an individual who already has done a type rating offers a lower training risk than someone who has not.
I still believe an Instructor comes better equipped with life skills to work in the MCC environment, but market forces now dictate that this experience has little currency in the airlines today, more the pity for it as it is the bean-counters who call the shots these days!
I would strongly recommend you look at finding the funding or getting a job that enables you to save for the type rating as opposed to the FI (R).
Good luck, ES

[BEagle]

The reputation you make for yourself as a FI(R) may well mean that your Head of Training is able to give a strong reference for you to a potential airline employer.

If the airline's recruiter happens to spot the name of the referee and trusts his/her judgement, a quick phone call might make the difference between your being called for interview or being told "Sorry, no thanks".

If you're prepared to work hard as a FI for a couple of years, in the knowledge that you won't be particualrly well paid and that it's something of an apprenticeship, you might have an edge on others. But it's all something of a lottery - unless, as at least 3 of my ex-FIs had, you have something which holds you up above the rest of the herd!

Good luck!

[Send Clowns]

El Sid

Be very wary of recommending type ratings! Ask some of the people who recruit for the airlines (I am paraphrasing their advice elsewhere on PPRuNe or face-to-face): they don't always carry the day, they don't always even help, they can prevent you even getting a look in for jobs on a "lesser" aircraft if you admit you have, say, a 737 on your licence. Who is going to hire a 73-rated pilot for a Dash 8, knowing he'll be off as soon as he can to jets?

Some people are lucky, they have the right rating at the right time (a friend of mine was annoyed at having paid for one (TP not jet) at a promise of a job, only for the offer to fall through. That is until an airline needed rated pilots at 3 days' notice. That was pure luck though).

I will purely answer the question. The market for FI(R)s is strong. We sometimes struggle to cover some weekend days down here, and have recently even had week-day problems. It can be useful, you can make contacts, some in the business others just very interesting (and occasionally wealthy) people. Get a lot of perks - students in various fields willing to help you out knowing how skint you are.

Feel free to get in touch if you want more specifics.

[EL SID]

Send Clowns, I’m, like yourself in the business of employing instructors and know they are a bit thin on the ground at the moment. To redress that I am intending to become FIC qualified in the near future, so one would expect me to proselytise getting the FI (R) qualification and put it on my own personal agenda. However facts are in my immediate sphere of operations that out of 8 instructors working for me over the last 18 months 4 went for type ratings and now have jobs, one is in progress with the type rating, spurred on by those who have successfully followed this route and the 3 remaining are still instructing, whilst pursuing, with little response, the elusive airline job. It appears that during the type-rating course the course providers recommend to airlines those who stand out during their training. Whereas as Beagle quite rightly pointed out that referees from well-known CFI’s went a long way in the past it seems it is less the case at present. Ryanair’s stance on getting prospective employees paying for the type rating training put paid to all that and the airline world has moved on and the rest now are following suit. IMHO the route of gaining experience as an FI to enter the airline market is going to diminish fairly rapidly in the future. I think, as was the point was made at the Seminar for Senior Instructors recently at RAF Cranwell, our industry will have to look seriously at the career instructor as opposed to the airline aspirant hours-builder instructors. I may be wrong, but from where I’m standing that’s how the market looks to me at the moment hence my advice on the type rating in preference the FI(R) course.
ES

[lookoutbelow]

Thanks for the advice guys,

It is a really hard decission for me. Since my post I have been offered the chance to instruct in Florida for a JAR school. I have also been offered the JAR FI course out there for £3200!! I guess with the excellent all year round WX I could go out spend £5k for the FI course and JAR fATPL - FAA CPL conversion, stay for 12 months, bank say 800-1000 hrs, hope for some twin hrs then hit the airlines again with a good reference from the ex BA A32O TRE/TRI CFI at the school.

My other option is to finance the TR on the B737. I am lucky enough to have a couple of contacts in the airline industry who have said that there MAY (!!) be work on the 73 if I was to succesfully complete the course. I reckon with living expenses, initial sim assessment, base check and if not paid for line training the TR bill could stretch to £25-30k.

I would definately take the latter if the word MAY didnt appear in the above text! however, it does. All this and a guy with 220 hrs, who was at the FTO where I completed my ME IR in April landed a Jet job with the airline paying for all further training.

What to do? can you guys help me decide?

LookOutBelow

[TurboJ]

El Sid can you check your PMs please, cheers..........TJ

[EL SID]

lookoutbelow, if you are considering doing the FI course and working in Florida subsequently, just a few caveats:
1) If the outfit you are going to train/work for is at Stuart Airfield do a search of this and the Wannabees forums first, the results could be most illuminating.
2) Make sure that if you are going to work there that you have the relevant visa's before you go.
3) If you don't have the minimum of a FAA CPL then you may not be paid for instruction, no matter what course you are training people for. To be 100% legal you must have a FAA CPL/IR & CFI rating or you will be very restricted in what you can do with your rating, and certainly you will not be able to do the necessary supervised solo's to get your restriction lifted. You may need to add the above FAA ratings to your budget. Oh and before you ask, you will not get any credit for any of the FAA exams or flight tests (3 exams, 3 flight tests).
Have fun!
ES

[lookoutbelow]

Send Clowns,

Would be really interested in any work in the S'hampton / B'mouth area after the FI R course. Where is it you work? Any advice on establishments to send CV's to. I currently live close to Goodwood but nothing there.

El Sid,

Thanks. Spoke to the school in the US today. I now realise it will be the JAR CPL - FAA CPL Conversion, FAA CFI and then JAR standardisation. Around $5-6k. Would also be coming back without the JAR FI Rating!! Not such a good plan after all! Visa's also look real difficult...

[Keygrip]

FAA CFI and then JAR standardisation Not sure if you know already - but this approach will not give you any JAA Instructor Ratings - you could not use the qualification in the UK (or JAA land).

All it gives you is the authority to teach JAA on your FAA ratings.

[EL SID]

Hi Lookoutbelow
Check your PM's.
Cheers, ES

[Send Clowns]

Lookout

I work at Solent School of Flying and a little at Bournemouth Flying Club. The latter is unlikely for you as they are highly standardised, and rarely take instructors not trained in the club. Worth sending a CV to Solent though (should find the address on the website (http://www.solentsf.co.uk/) )

[Jaydee27]

As a newly qualified FI(R) I'm not wanting to hear that I should have gone for a type rating instead! However, I'm also hearing that there's a small shortage of instructors at the moment.

Not sure how these two things add up...Surely if there's a shortage of instructors that's because instructors are getting jobs elsewhere - I know it's coming into the busy season (I hope!) - if not, are there a group of instructors that aren't getting there and have just given up? Now that would be depressing...

[Kanu]

Sorry to bother you all, I thought I’d resurrect this thread in an attempt to gauge the current situation with regards to instructing positions throughout the UK at present (perhaps with a little emphasis on the Midlands and North:E )

any comments/suggestions will be much appreciated.:ok:

[portsharbourflyer]

If you want to fly for an airline, your options are type rating or the CTC ACQ scheme. The instructors route is now more a way into air taxi work (allows you to build up to 700 hours for single pilot ops) this in turn could lead to work in the corporate / biz jet sector. I will definitely agree an instructors rating is the best thing to do to improve your flying standard not necessarily your job prospects for the airlines. At the balpa confernce there was an increaseing number of airlines where the recuitment criteria was either 500 hours multi crew experience or applicants from the CTC ACQ scheme, with no imbetween entry criteria for a high houred instructor. That is to get a job with Easyjet, monarch, etc, if you haven't got turbine multi crew experience then you have to apply through the CTC ACQ scheme irrespective of your hours (250 hours or 1000). Like wise I have known several instructors whom have instructed full time for a year or two and most still ended up paying for a type rating.

[badboy raggamuffin]

A mate of mine was working as an instructor due to there being little interest from the airlines, as soon as hed racked up 1000hrs however, things changed overnight, I think at one point he had 3 sim checks lined up, needless to say he was offered a job, took it, and is now happy as larry.
In his case, his instructor background did definitely open up doors for him, no question.

[timzsta]

I know somebody who got a job flying A320's (type rating paid for by company) because he had experience flying heavy turboprops.

I know someone else who got a job flying heavy turboprops because he had experience of flying multi IFR doing Air Taxi work.

I know another person who has just got a job doing Air Taxi work because he had built up his flying hours Instructing.

I got a job instructing six months ago because I paid out to do the FI course.

You can pay for a type rating and give that route a shot, but there are still other ways to get to the RHS of a jet.

[badboy raggamuffin]

anyone out there know what you can pull in for air taxi work? Im geussing its not brilliantly paid, but a step up from instructing, right?

[metar]

For what it's worth we have a huge shortage of instructors in Scotland currently!

[papazulu]

For what it's worth we have a huge shortage of instructors in Scotland currently!

Also a shortage of VFR-flyable days, I guess. Or not? I would not mind to fly up there but...we already starve on continental EU with more or less 200 days/yr. Sure money isn't worth the rating (that's why I start to agree with those who go for...well, you know) but the frustration of being grounded most of the day for weeks...A daily retainer can make a better life, but it won't sort the bills and if you need a second job it means you have to drop you life. Then you go to airlines and when they look to your TT,here they go: "...mhhhh, all this SEP time, you know it was better to have a widebody TR+line training..."

Same old s...t. Fine.

Wish you good luck.

PZ :ok:

[Dude~]

I have been instructing since january and have just got called for a jet interview, my first interview in fact.:)

Certainly wouldn't have got this without the hours gained from instructing.

Many FIs I know have got turboprop or even jet jobs, one recently went to jets with just over 1000hrs TT. Of course, some of my friends are still slogging away with over 1500hrs of SEP time and are nearly getting mad, but instructing certainly opens doors and its cheaper and less risky than SSTR.

as all the airline application forms I have seen seem to focus on recent flying hrs ie. last 3, 6 and 12 months flying totals.

I love filling in this bit on forms. As a PPL I used to fly anywhere between 5 and 40 hrs a year. Now I've done:
222hrs in last 3 months
437hrs in last 6 months and
672hrs in last 12 months.

And I've got paid for every hour. Beats sitting at home getting rusty!

[papazulu]

Many FIs I know have got turboprop or even jet jobs, one recently went to jets with just over 1000hrs TT. Of course, some of my friends are still slogging away with over 1500hrs of SEP time and are nearly getting mad, but instructing certainly opens doors and its cheaper and less risky than SSTR.


I know this makes sense, but try to explain it to those who think that they deserve a JetJob just b'cos the crawled through the ATPL 14 papers, did it in a shinny FTO, had epaullets on their shoulders for their first hr and...forked out the cash for a SSTR...If you do some word-swopping excercise in your own post you get more or less the same argue, in a jet-version, of course!

I'll stand by you and your choice, Dude. happy for your 1st job.

PZ :ok:

[expedite08]

You couldnt have put it any better Papazulu.

There are far too many of these sorts comming out of the system and bringing the level of competancy, and the whole instruction industry down with them! Especially on the PPL front.

As you say they expect, rather than realise that gaining employment in an airline or any operator for that matter requires the same amount of determination and savvy as any other job.

Many go through the saussage machine schools and come out hitting a large brick wall!! All the marketing and bull noit paid off!!
Then see gaining an instructors rating as a pain. This then reflects in thier attitude to thier students and the flying, as they are just thinking, ' I should be in the RHS of a jet not in a clapped out 152. Then starts the vicious circle. The way I see it, its a sad fact and part of the industry that is here to stay. A great shame!

Anyway thats my two cents worth. Currently running for cover!!! :} :}

Expedite:ok:

[papazulu]

Well...Thank you for your two cents. At least you confirmed that what I think makes sense after typing, which for a no-native English speaker is quite an achivement...

The sad part, as you said, is the attitude and the sense of frustration that comes with the first PFO letters or doors slammed into your face. I am not immune from that but it is a long story.

Sooner or later the famed MPL will kick in, and the cut will become deeper, I feel...Everything evolves, but I wonder if it's always the strongest that survive.

let's see

PZ :ok:

[Dude~]

There are far too many of these sorts coming out of the system and bringing the level of competency

Papazulu, sorry I don't quite get your point and I don't see what I've got to explain to SSTR guys.

Are you referring to me? You don't even know me! I spent many years flying as a PPL and have wanted to become an Instructor for a long time. I receive extremely good feedback from students. I do not take my position lightly and neither do I expect to get a jet job just because I instruct.

I chose to instruct because I wanted to stay in the GA scene for a while. Now I have worked in GA I would like to move on. That doesn’t imply that my standards are lower than someone who wants to remain an instructor.

[papazulu]

I might have been confusing, sure not pointing my finger against your choice Dude. Why, if I took the same decision? What I meant is that as well as you underline that FI rating led you to your first job, in the old fashioned way, all those who succeded in getting a jet-job with a SSTR can state the same simply changing "FI rating" with "SSTR" in you post. I think anyone would evaluate two potential FOs in different manners if he had to compare a FI's experience with a SSTR and no time on type...In between there are all those who risked everything and got a fist full of dust.Clear now? Didn't mean to criticize anyone, just read it back and you might agree. I am not very happy with the FI choice but, as I said it is another story and not related to anyone experience at all.

Once again:

I'll stand by you and your choice, Dude. happy for your 1st job.


PZ :ok:

[Dude~]

Understood now! I misinterpreted what you were saying!

[papazulu]

Understood now! I misinterpreted what you were saying!

Cool...Looking to hear you on-air sooner or later, hopefully still on a GA bugsmasher on you time off from heavymetal flying...Take care.

PZ :ok:

[Craggenmore]

expedite08,

There are far too many of these sorts comming out of the system and bringing the level of competancy, and the whole instruction industry down with them! Especially on the PPL front.
Who should fill the vacant instructor positions?

[The Otter's Pocket]

Hold on, if the potential instructor passes the course to the standards required, does that mean that the course is not good enough?
That the examiners are not looking for the correct skills, or is it that the new instructors are looking at the jobs market from a very different angle.

If the instructors have got their heart set on flying the tubes, well good on them.
Instructing is another skill on the CV for many pilots in a market that requires you to show your experience and determination to succeed.

It is all well and good people taking pot shots on an anonymous forum at other instructors who may be very competant at their jobs. After all if they did not get to the standards required they would not have a job instructing?

[xrayalpha]

Also a shortage of VFR-flyable days, I guess.


Yes, and today one of them!

I run a microlight school in Scotland, and also have a shortage of instructors - even at 30-odd pounds per flying hour.

We have to offer career instructiing, since one's microlight hours count for nothing further once you have an instructor's rating.

Yet the C42 Ikarus we have can also, with different placards, be a light aircraft!

However, a microlight instructor's course - for a basic ppl with 100 hours on microlights - is about three grand and four weeks. So microlight instructors don't have the same capital - in time and money - invested in training to recoup.

So as other posters have mentioned, the shortage of instructors is a) having to mean instructional rates go up, so flying lessons go up, so fewer students learn, so fewer instructors needed, so instructors' wages fall back! or b) ab initio light aircraft instruction maybe looks at the microlight route - and checks it out for safety, competance, value for money etc.

My personal aim at the airfield I have bought is to give instructors a "living wage" - I will never be able to compete with airlines - unless they drop their pay rates, which I hope for all they don't!

I see a "living wage" as being the national average wage - if you want a definition - which is about 21k a year.

Not great if you have invested all that cash - 60k and a coule of years - in a CPL etc, but not too bad if your dream is to instruct and you have invested 3k and a month on a training course.

Very best wishes to all

[papazulu]

I got a FI position offered in a nice FTO a week ago and, so far, I have to say that I have accepted...Then I got a text message for Belgium from a friend going TRated on a TP for a regional in Co-EU, after two years far away from amything flyable...Is this not supposed to make me feel sick? Sorry to go a bit off topic but time is ticking for me and I trew the dice once again...Heart is pounding, eyes are watering and jaws are stiff. IDidn't I want it bad enough? Nevertheless I hope I can still be a decent FI without that feeling of frustration, without asking why it does not happen... All I want is a make-a-living-job on a plane possibly somewhere warm and I really feel bad anytime I try to make a point for FIs.

However I really had great time in UK even if those years I was not flying and I am sure there will be other sunny days even where if it doesn't rain it pours...!

Hope to hear you on air soon! And stop this SSTR madness...!

PZ :ok:

[metar]

Any Scottish clubs / schools hiring then I know two (hopefully) well respected FIs (one a CFI) who have run for the hills and are looking for immediate work. Their school at Cumbernauld looks like it's gone tits up and thoughts / suggestions appreciated. :hmm: :rolleyes:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Well, there are going to be some new jobs going up here very soon. We at Leading Edge have just been asked to take over the provision of PPL training at Perth. So we're going to need people both there and Cumbernauld. We already have a great team, but we are going to need to expand it.

[metar]

Sounds good to me... will pop in for a chat if that's ok!

BTW - Is it normal for the owner of your previous FTO to leave you a death threat after you leave?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Not really, but nothing would surprise me in this business. I assume you've been in contact with the boy's in blue?