ATPL Groundschool

[TubularBells]

Hello!

I have a little problem which I could do with some advice on. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

I'm due to go to the bank tomorrow and discuss my plans with them and to try and wrench the required money out of their hands to start my training.

I've spent a lot of time looking into schools all over and finally made a choice about two weeks ago. Out of four schools I short listed, it was the best option, considering many different factors.

I've also laid down a deposit for the ATPL ground school module.

My problem lies with this module.

I've found out today from someone who is actually on the same module, that things aren’t all they seem. I am being told by this individual that: The instructors are sub-standard (one instructor has only a PPL, 100 hours and ATPLs passed, but no CPL - please tell me if this is possible?:confused: ); The notes are poor and require many additional note sheets; the facilities limited and the pass marks appalling.

I'm also being told that many others who are on the same module are voicing their worries about their time there so far, and that generally some sort of wide spread classroom panic is setting in.

Now my concerns here are two fold. Firstly, how the hell could I have missed this when I did all my research? Second, how far do I take the advice of the individual who told me this information?

What determines a good instructor in the classroom? Should I expect notes, an OHP and someone who reads it to me? Or should I be expecting more that this? Should I be aiming for the big schools, with animated presentations and Computer aided learning?

Is it usual for students to find the start very difficult, i.e. getting low marks in the assessments?

I guess from the above, you may be able to see that I am beginning to worry, and for babbling on, I apologise. I just can't afford (in both senses of the word) to start this all off on the wrong foot.

Any and all comments, gratefully received!

Best regards,

TB.
:sad:

[Hufty]

I am sure you would have done your research here before handing over any money so there is probably no point in doing it again. I wouldn't do anything based on the views of one person though - he or she could have had a bad experience and could be bad mouthing the school over something which might have been their fault.

A good school has experienced, knowledgeable instructors and good notes. The school should ideally have good links with the CAA (to facilitate discussion over dodgy questions etc.) and have an excellent database of feedback questions. Sometimes the questions are worded in a way that means it isn't completely clear what they are looking for so a good school will be aware of traps like this and will usually have a view (the correct view) on how they should be answered. Try to talk to as many people as possible who have been through this school and get their views. If you do end up walking away don't worry. If they do hold on to your deposit just think about how little that amount is compared to the thousands you're going to be spending. When you do your IR, you will be writing cheques for hundreds of pounds without even thinking about it :{


The facilities shouldn't be a huge issue. I used Oxford and the facilities were average to say the least. There was very little use made of computer learning in the classroom (this was 01-03 so could well have changed) and it was mainly "chalk and talk". There was one poor instructor, but the rest really knew their onions.

Good luck on your funding - let us know how you get on....

[Peggy Murphy]

You have every right to be concerned........ its a lot of money to throw away. I shared a B&B years ago with a Gen Nav instrutor from SFT. He told me he was'nt qualified...... just managed to stay a chapter ahead of the class and hoped they never asked any difficult questions. He said 'sometimes the students knew more than him' This is simply NOT on. As you have not mentioned the school, I cant be sure...... but it does sound like a Colin Green special. We all know he was in the driving seat at SFT and look what happened there. So if you are considering EPTA ...... DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY.

[Baron buzz]

Yes, you should be slighty concerened, but not overly. I attended LMU and alot of people that I spoke to voiced concern over how good they were. Now, having passed all but one first time it is apparent that it is more your ability and desire to work very, very hard that is important. All the instructors were excellent, and willing to help out greatly.

However, a few classes beneath us had a few complaints. But, maybe they werent as willing to work as hard as we were.

[Keith.Williams.]

PEGGY MURPHY

You really must try to get your hatred for Colin Green under control. It is affecting your judgement. If you cannot achieve this, then you should try to ensure that your hate campain harms him and only him.

Over the past three years at least 5 schools have gone broke. These included PPSC, Four Forces, SFT, Pilot Assist and one in South Africa the name of which escapes me. Colin Green was involved in only one of these failures. I have no wish to defend SFT because I was not part of it and have no knowledge of the details. But I think that it is relevant that the World Trade Centre attack on 11 September 2001 was only one month before the failure of SFT. I suspect that this affected SFT in some small way.

Tubular Bells did not state the name of his school, but you have chosen to assume that it is EPTA. But the details provided by Tubular Bells in his initial post included the statement:

"The instructors are sub-standard (one instructor has only a PPL, 100 hours and ATPLs passed, but no CPL - please tell me if this is possible? )".

All of the EPTA groundschool instructors are highly experienced and very effective. None of them match the description of having a ppl and 100 hours.

I am the manager of the groundschool and instruct a number of subjects. Of the 5 groundschool instructors, one holds a full ATPL and several thousand hours of airline experience. Two are ex-RAF Navigators with many decades of experience in large aircraft. Another is an ex-Army helicopter pilot with several thousand hours experience. I am the only non-aircrew instructor and must depend upon many decades of experience as an Air Engineer Officer in the RN.

The quality of any groundschool is best assessed by looking at the results. EPTA results include the following:

a. The vast majority of EPTA students pass their exams first time. This is illustrated by our Module B results for the May exams. 7 self sponsored students each took 6 exams. Of the 42 exams taken, all but one was a first time pass. Subjects included PERF. M&B, Rad Nav, Flight Planning, HP&L and Ops Proc. The unlucky student who failed one exam got 73% in Flight Planning. The UAE students in the same class did not fare quite so well but still passed a large proportion of their exams. You may wish to consider how you would have fared had you been obliged to take your exams in arabic!!!!

b. Those students who fail to pass first time are given whatever free retraining is required to enable them to pass at future attempts. This may take the form of anything from a complete rerun of the relevant module to individual tuition.

c. No EPTA student has ever been required to pay any extra fees for whatever groundschool retraining he or she has received. You suggested in a previous post that this system indicated a lack of confidence in the quality of our training. It is in fact exactly the opposite. We are prepared to guarantee free retraining because we know that only a very small proportion of our students will ever require it. More importantly we believe that it is unfair to make students pay for retraining.

d. No EPTA student has ever run out of attemts or time (18 months) to pass his ATPL exams.

e. A considerable number of students from other schools come to EPTA for consolidation training having failed exams at their prevous schools. Every one of these students has gone on to pass all of their exams.


TUBULAR BELLS

You should certainly be concerned if instructors are simply reading from an OHP. This is in fact exactly what one SFT instructor did when teaching PPSC students following the failure of PPSC. EPTA do not employ any ex-SFT groundschool isntructors. I have however rejected 2 applications from such instructors in the past, quite simply because I did not consider them to be up to the required standard. Our most recent recruit came from ATA, which had an excellent reputation for the quality of its instructors.

I have been told that one of the schools in Florida employs an ex-student who "had previously had a lot of problems passing the groundschol,exams".

You should be less worried about the existence or otherwise of computer training devices. At the end of the day the quality of the training depends more on the instructor than on what tools he has available.

Finally, before signing up with any school you should always spend time talking with existing students. I always advise potential customers to do this when they visit EPTA. I do this becaue I am absolutely confident that they will be impressed with what they are told by our students.

Potential customers could of course listen to PEGGY MURPHY if they value the views of a person who has never studied at the EPTA groundschool.

[TubularBells]

Peggy Murphy, I'm afraid I would have to agree with Keith Williams in that you are jumping to assumptions and using this thread to voice an opinon that I really wasn't looking for and I'm sure others arn't either (And for information, you are incorrect). I am in no way looking to name and shame a school, simply to make the most informed decision that I can for MY future.

Aside from that, Thanks to all of you for taking the time to reply, I've taken all the info on board.

Cheers,

TB.:ok:

[Send Clowns]

TB

There is no reason someone of those qualifications could not teach, as long as the CGI checked he knew the material. I had no more formal aviation-directed academic training than that (just a few more hours and a CPL/IR) and was very comfortable teaching Gen Nav, one of the hard subjects, and have had a lot of success in some trying circumstances. That is because of the non-aviation side of my background.

I would also defend Colin and Brian, his CGI at SFT on this one - the Gen Nav instructor problem at SFT was really because they couldn't find anyone to do the job (I was a student there at the time, effectively teaching myself and relying on Royal Navy training). I was the solution, as I started working as soon as I could to fill the gap. I have heard no complaints about the instructors at EPTA.

[Peggy Murphy]

I dont know why I bother!!!!!! Tubular Bells......If you dont want information.....dont ask. I just wish my mates had background info on SFT before they parted with their money. Keith! I could'nt care less about Colin Green, I dont even know the man. I'm an ex PPSC student. The CAA did nothing to help all those students who lost thousands........ so at least give people a fighting chance by giving all the info on training providers both good and bad. Would you pay Paul Stoddart £20000 for a type rating at the moment??????? I dont think so......... WHY?????? Because you have background knowledge. I rest my case.

[Keith.Williams.]

PEGGY MURPHY

Well at least we are now getting somewhere.

Just to get the picture clear, you have now admitted that you do not know Colin Green and you have no personal experience of EPTA. But you are keen to ensure that all potential students have as much background information as possible.

Well let's just have look at some of your previous statements to see what you have been doing to provide this background information.

You have never met Colin Green, but in a previous thread you made the statement "Just because he is not in the building does'nt mean that your money is safe. He is probably on holidays spending it."

And although you have never actually been a student at EPTA, you stated "So if you are considering EPTA ...... DONT WASTE YOUR MONEY".

Your wish to ensure that all potential students are provided with all the background is laudable. But can you really say that the above comments represent a balanced view of a man you have never met and a school at which you have never studied?

There is a great deal of difference between background information and the disinformation that you are peddling. The former will help potential students while the latter will not.

If our existing students had read your comments and gone to other schools they might well have received inferior tuition, would almost certainly have paid a higher price, would not have had the guarantee of free retraining and may well have achieved lower scores in their exams. So how much help do you feel you would have given them?

The fact is that EPTA is a very professional school about which you know nothing. In the interests of providing balanced background information you might wish to start all of your future posts with the health warning "WARNING, I HAVE AN UNCONTROLLABLE URGE TO HARM PEOPLE I HAVE NEVER MET AND SCHOOLS AT WHICH I HAVE NEVER STUDIED" Readers will then be in a better position to assess the true value of you comments.

[Peggy Murphy]

Keith! At my interview with Ryanair.......Declan Dooney asked me if I was another victim of the SFT/Colin Green empire..... just because he saw Bournemouth on my cv. Luckily for me I was not. Now as far as I know Declan did'nt study at SFT, however he may well have met Colin at some stage.... who knows. My point is.... if the above was common knowledge in Dublin and at FL330 half way across Europe on numerous occasions......... I dont think you had to be there or know him in order to have an informed insight into what went on. If Harold Shipman was still alive and practicing as a GP...... Would you, just going on what you have heard and read and assuming you dont know him......advise anyone you know to make an appointment with him????? Can you see my point yet????

[Alex Whittingham]

Speaking of PPSC, I wonder what on earth this (http://www.foster-marine.com/courseListings.asp) is? Are they coming back?

[Keith.Williams.]

My goodness ALEX, that is spooky!!! For just one second I thought I might finally get the £7000 they owe me.

Have you seen the staff pictures page? Gorillas in the mist or what???

I wonder if the old SECOAT website is still active. You probably looked much younger in that one.

[scroggs]

Peggy Murphy. Like you, I have never met Mr Green, nor have I attended his school. Unlike you, I feel that my lack of direct knowledge of him or his school means I am not qualified to pass comment on him or his operation. The lack of corroberative support for your point of view suggests that you should perhaps consider winding your neck in. Alternatively, please supply Pprune with your real name and contact details so that we know where to direct Mr Green's solicitors, should they decide to contact us....

Oh yes, so glad you've found out what the Caps Lock key does at last!

Scroggs

[Peggy Murphy]

Scroggs! Im a pilot ......not a typist. Unlike some, I put all my efforts into flying planes.

[My names Turkish]

Tubular Bells: I wouldnt worry too much about computer based training. I think the reason behind them is, along with full page adverts with fancy graphics and photographs, it tries to portray an image that is false. Behind all the Registered trade marks slogans, computers and the lowest of them all the links on websites to airlines with apparently abundant employment once you have your ATPL, are the Instructors. You can have all the smoke and mirrors propaganda but these are the cornerstone. I am in the relatively unique position of having been to one of the former relativly new school AND a "Low Tech" Overhead projector type of school EPTA. Here vast experience and knowledge replaced marketing spoof.

For me the difference was night and day. I noticed that students there were NOT asked for any extra money for re-training and or re-submission into further exams which is the reason why I had ended my relationship with my previous school.

There are those who will pass their exams first time and for them as long as they have good notes it doesnt really matter what school they go to. I think however that like me most people will struggle at least with one or two subjects and thats where the good instructors far overshadow the Marketing Mans Computer and Trade Marked Slogans and acronyms. A few hours one to one with a good instructor did more for me than months elsewhere. I passes the last of my repeats with very good marks and I would attribute that to the instructors in the school actually taking more than a passing intrest in me their student.

Having said that others who passed through behind me were very happy with the course and it may be that my personal disputes with the CGI clouded my opinion of the school. I am man enough to admit it and hold back on the heavy handed remarks. What I dont do is come on and Rant and Rave about a school I have never been to and about People I have never met, Peggy Murphy, you made need to take a look in the Mirror.

EPTA Groundschool are very reputable and very good at what they do. I think the facts and figures in Keiths Post speak for themselves.

It is also true that a student having used 4 attempts to pass a subject and 6 visits in total (The Maximum before a total resit) and brought back to teach the subject a few weeks late:confused: :rolleyes: Unfortunately these are the things you have no way of finding out until it is over, that is unless you pick a reputable school in the first place!

[Alex Whittingham]

Just for clarity, Turkish, where did you do your groundschool?

[Send Clowns]

I agree with a lot of what you say, Turkish, butfigures in Keiths Post speak for themselvesIf you believe that you'll believe anything. Keith is quoting one set of results. We can all do that, for a single course that did very well. Interesting that he uses this thread to advertise as he shouldn't, when I have not seen other instructors (Oxford Blue, Alex or me) doing similarly after good sets of course results which we all have, tempting as it has been. I could quote some of the figures from his school for a single course that are pretty poor (disregarding UAE students) but I won't, specifically because they would not be representative and don't suggest other results are poor and so would not help anyone to choose a school. Statistics can be quoted selectively to prove any point, so I shall not try scoring points here.

[OneMileHigh]

Peggy Murphy.............

Now there's an interesting name to come on Pprune with. Is it your real name or a smoke screen?

Now lets assume you are a real Peggy complete with the usual 28 day baggage problem, and let's face it your current ranting and raving suggest that you could be in that particular baggage cycle. This would surely back up the sexist case that women should not be allowed in the cockpit, which would be wrong as most women are very good pilots. You are not doing the cause of female pilots any good at all.

You say you are a pilot, not a typist. Well so am I but I have sufficient care for detail demanded by my profession that even on trivial matters and matters of great ranticallity, I endeavour to get the writing right. How did you manage your on your CV or job application form?

Now if you are a bloke, things get really tricky. For a start you are most likely a cross dresser with an attitude; a most dangerous combination in the cockpit!!

Equally your rant would do the reputation of men in the cockpit no favours either. How would you feel if you found out that your assigned Captain had a reputation for belittling men in little skirts. Have a rant on Pprune or create a cockpit atmosphere? MCC ring any bells?

Sorry Peggy: You are bang out of order. Keep your unwise invective for your unfortunate walk on baggage. Schools get reputations on their own merits from reasoned arguments placed by reasonable men, women (and the undecided) based upon first hand or valid near hand experience.

Now having said all that, the crash helmet is on and I await your wrath.................[COLOR=crimson]

[Alex Whittingham]

Can't you two argue by PM?

[High Wing Drifter]

Nobody mentioned Bristol yet? OK I will. Lets just say I couldn't understand the fuss about ATPLs after sitting the first eight subjects .Next six comming up fast :D

[Peggy Murphy]

Quote; 'I have sufficient care for detail. I endeavour to get the writing right. How did you manage your on your CV or job application form'



Hmmmmm!!!! You are the professional one.

[Send Clowns]

Keith, you are not sorry about breaking the advertising rules, you use your "apology" to do so again. Alex is quite right. I simply correct a misapprehension of statistics one of your students had made, being completely fair on your employer. You launch into a personal tirrade, clearly having completely misunderstood everything I said. Not very professional, nor helpful to the potential students here.

[Peggy Murphy]

Oooooh Scroggs!!!!!!!! You had better get your cane out again. Its all kicking off between KEITH and SEND CLOWNS. My money is on Keith........ he has a size advantage. 6pm behind Leatherbarrows........dont miss. Free advertising, running down each others schools.......what is the world coming to????

[Send Clowns]

P.S. You might have noticed, Keith, that I posted against Peggy's posts too, and made the same point as you that there are good and bad statistics to be quoted. Blinded by hatred of me or my employer you seem to have ignored those facts. I was astounded when you then round on me, I having given a neutral, unbiased post just countering your advert.

Not sure how you jumped from my (actual fact, as opposed to your "facts") statement that I had not used pass rates of good classes to advertise my employer, likewise Oxford Blue and Alex, to our notes. The only connection I can see is your sensitivity about criticism that has been leveled here at your notes, but if you actually look, I have never posted anything against any notes that mentioned Cabair or EPTA. I don't think I have specified which sets of notes I know to be up to the job, although if you can back your accusation I will accept that I have. If so I would mention at least Bristol, GTS and OATS as well, hardly advertising. In fact it is obvious I would choose those of my employer, so people would only take my endorsement of others at face value and I would actually be advertising other schools!

Do you realise you posted an advert for your book, while apologising for advertising (since many students try to get hold of as many questions as possible on the subjects they find hard, the possibility that they buy your book is hardly criticism of BCFT or ringing endorsement of EPTA) and what if some of our students approaching you for answers? Do you know how many people from all sorts of schools approach me for answers? Presumably they could go to their instructors too (yes, I include your own employer, some of whose students even approached me for private tuition. Shows how good your freebie is, if some are willing to pay). Anyone is free to ask us questions, our students and others, or to take questions elsewhere. Staff here have spent considerable time helping people who have never been customers of the school, happily in a spirit of helpfulness, as I am sure you do.

There are facts about your school I will not post (see, I tell the truth when I say I will leave facts unstated). I have just deleted them because slanging matches are unprofessional. However so are misleading statistics, and I will not let those pass without comment.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

"Scroggs!.......Scroggs!......Have you left the creche door open again...the children are squabbling....":p :rolleyes:

[scroggs]

I agree; this has gone far enough. Keith and Clowns, please settle your differences by other means. I won't have Wannabes become a battleground between EPTA and BCFT or any of either oranisation's representatives. And trying to score points by reporting each other's posts won't help either!

Scroggs