Flight Training Europe, Jerez

[grafity]

I'm just wondering if anyone has any good or bad points on the above FTO I'm interested mainly in their Integrated course.

THings like what’s the price like and are the people friendly. If anyone could help us out it would be much appreciated.

[unowho]

Visited Jerez when it was still BWoS (British Aerospace) the complex is very good and it seemed a happy place. But this is a while ago. Now under new management, that should be an improvement. Turn over of staff was high. You should visit their web site www.flighttrainingeurope.com .

Good Luck

[grafity]

thanks for the advise unowho

[G-ANDY]

Hi grafity,

I'm also interested in the flying school, and recently sent them an email (yesturday), and they replied (this morning)!!!

For the integrated course, the price quoted to me was €92,000!!! yikes!!! but that did include everything (appart from shoes). In the price was accomodation, full board lodging, renewal of 1st class medical...........

Give them an email and they will probably send you the same stuff.

Good luck

G-ANDY

[grafity]

Well Oxford charges near 100,000e with-out accomodation so it's not that bad. It's hard to no. I might go to one of their seminars their having one in dublin at the end of the month I think there's is one in England around the same time

[G-ANDY]

Grafity,,

i didn't realise Oxford charge that much!!! it makes Spain seem even nicer!!

I was talking with someone at my flying school the other day, and they say that integrated courses tend to cost about £20,000 more than modular courses. although, i feel the real benefit which comes from an integrated course is that you go through the course with a group of people which adds encouragment, banter and support.

Keep me informed with your plans, you never know, i might make it there if i win the lottery or rob a couple of banks!!

G-ANDY

[grafity]

I accually made a bit of a mistake it's 60,000 pound sterlin so it works out at about 88000e. The exhange rates have changed over the last while I thought it was 6:10 but it's accually nearer 7:10.
But theirs still full board at Jerez.

[prizefigher]

i was at that seminar in dub in holiday inn in september, it was interesting enough. it would be interesting now to c why BAE pulled out. flight training has gone very slow recently with most airlines opting against sponsorship. im travelling over to spain in 2 wks to look at jerez also im going to visit 2 fto's in madrid aeromadrid and aerofan these places are relatively cheaper and would be worth lookin in to pm me if ya wana give me shout etc.

good luck with it folks which eva way ye end up

[Groundloop]

"it would be interesting now to c why BAE pulled out."

Basically BAE have pulled out of virtually everything that, to them, is not a "core" business. Just look at the RJX programme. Once they cancelled that civil flight training lost a lot of its relevance to them.

Also as BAE are desperate to become a major US company a little flight school on Southern Spain was just a pain in the *rse.

[hkwannabe101]

I understand that BAE want to concentrate on their core business, and agree that this relatively small operation from BAE's point of view had to go. But why have they kept their schools running in Aus?

My opinion is that it is due to general lack of cadetships in Europe at the moment, and indeed forseeable future. Whereas their school in Adelaide gets plenty of cadets which is a nice steady source of cash.

I have visted FTE and was very impressed, and would have no reservation in recommending them to anyone who wants to do a full time integrated course.

just my 2c

[mach252]

Visted the school and have friends who are going through the course at the moment. Great facilities, great people and the food was pretty decent too. The aircraft are really well maintained, which makes a change from some other schools I have visited, that was one of the biggest selling points for me. So, yes, expensive, but also worth it considering whats included in the bill! Good luck with your decision!

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Hi

I went to Jerez last year when it was BAE Systems. I also know people who have completed the course and people who are out there now.

I was due to start an integrated course but had to withdraw because I was borrowing all the money and would have found myself overstretched on the repayments if fuel prices went up or if I had to pay for a type rating following graduation.

Given a choice, Jerez or Oxford would still be my first preference for an integrated course as the training is top notch and highly regarded in the industry. The staff are great at Jerez, and they are totally professional. There were no problems when I had to withdraw from my contract, and my decision was fully supported.

There is nothing to read into BAE's withdrawal from Jerez. The company has been trimming non-core assets for some time now all across the world. Basically anything that's not military is being sold off, and that is purely a business decision to focus on their key market rather than anything to do with FTOs. The management in Jerez bought the flying school and are passionate about it, to the extent that standards have been maintained and the facility overall has probably improved as a result of its future being secure.

I used to believe integrated was the only way to go for an airline career, but now I believe that modular routes are just as valid, and almost certainly cheaper, even if it takes longer to get onto jets. It comes down to personal circumstances and preferences as well as the specific requirements of recruiters.

My only caveats on FTOs including Jerez are as follows:

1) Always remember that times are hard in the industry and FTOs are running a business just as are the airlines. There is no room for sentiment and you should treat funding your own training as a business decision. FTO staff are professionals, not only in flight training, but in sales and marketing too!

2) The fATPL course in Jerez might be E92,000 all in, but remember that you will need extra spending money to maintain your cash flow, whether that is for taxis, trips home at Easter and Christmas, washing, clothes, small luxuries(?!), or beer and snacks. These little things all add up over 14 months, and are one of the factors for my not being able to take up the course (because the bank wouldn't loan me the extra).

3) Also, don't forget that if fuel prices rise, so might the cost of your training (check your contract!), and you might still need to fund a type rating before an airline will take you on.

4) With points 2 and 3 above taken into consideration, you need to budget for £100K sterling before commencing self funded integrated training. That means being able to meet loan repayments of up to £1000 per month for the next 10-20 years starting from six months after you graduate, with no guarantee of a job. There are probably more than 1500 fATPLs already out there looking for those jobs.

----------
I wish you well but keep a cool and mercenary head, because things get a whole lot tougher from here!

I forgot to say that the price at Jerez is actually about average for the training and accommodation you will get, which is also the bare minimum you will need. Don\'t get fooled by massively cheaper courses because half the time you are not comparing like with like. Any airline will confirm that it costs at least £65,000 to get a fATPL + CPL (IR)+MCC/JOT worth its salt.

Also, it goes without saying - at the risk of being patronizing - that you should not go to Spain just because it\'s Spain. It gets foggy, rains and snows there too, and you are not going there for a holiday. The downside of all that sun is that if it gets to 34 degrees you can\'t fly, and most of the time you will be on campus anyway (at the airport - whoopee...). If it is Spain you are interested in, take a year off, learn the language and go travelling instead! It would be a darn sight cheaper and you\'d see more.

[grafity]

Straightandlevel80kt

Thanks I'll keep it all in mind, you made some interesting points.

You say that you'd want to be budgeting for 100K sterling. This would be leaving nearly 60,000e to spare after the 92,000 euro do you recon that such a reserve is needed or was this an error.

[redstar]

I doubt very much you'll need £100K. There have been a few exceptions. If you begin to fail test after test, it can get very expensive.
You should definitely have a plan to cover re-test/extra training costs even if you don't see it happening.

In terms of living expenses, I managed to get by on about £5-6K for the year.

redstar

[moggie]

The commercial school at Adelaide is up for sale, too although the "military" school at Tamworth is not.

Oddly enough, BAE are investing heavily in the civil school at Qatar, even though "civil training is no longer a core business" - an investment made AFTER selling off Jerez.

I'm ex-Jerez myself and can vouch for the fact that most of the instructors are very good (most, but like everywhere, not all!). As to how busy they are these days I just don't know - it was VERY quiet bwhen I left at Christmas.

[hkwannabe101]

Moggie,

Just out of curiosity, are you now job hunting, and if so how is it going?

[grafity]

Is anyone going to the FTE seminar in Dublin this weekend?

[eire_boy]

Gratify, am planning to go to the 11am session, will see you there :ok:

[Touch'n'oops]

Hey up all!

I am also an ex-cadet of Jerez and much more recent one at that. I found it to be good fun. Jerez is not too close to the airport as to be a distraction, but it is also close enough for large nights out at the weekend!!!:E

The campus facilities are second to none. So when it gets too hot to fly... "To the pool Gentlemen... and Woman (Sorry lads only one left when I went)"

Lets look at the serious issues... Instructors ground and flying are quality, even though some of them have their quirks.

Aircraft no fault there... well except for the few which suffered at my hands:}

I did find that if you do not push to go flying in the beginning, you will not go flying in the beginning... Push them... you are paying. This is the mistake I made and found myself really working hard in the air towards the end. When you are learning, two flights a day turn the brain to mush... I did a lot of threes.:ugh:

But still the school is really good all rounder and Peter Sadler knows what he is doing! The sad part is... AFTER, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN!!!

Now that I am trying to get that first job, it looks like a lot of luck, timing and effort is going to be needed!!!

Any more Qs? PM me!

[window-seat]

I trained at Jerez in 2001/02. No real regrets and a good few of the guys (all self funded) are now airline employed. If you go out there with a PPL and manage to save a few SEP hours, they will write you a nice refund cheque to take home (mine was for around £2,000).

We did manage to get out and about in Spain a little, many an afternoon spent on the beach, and many an evening out sampling the local delicacies ;) . Malaga is about 1hr 45mins drive (or 35mins by seneca)!! and Gibraltar about 1hr 10mins where you can stock up on all the usual goodies that you will be missing from home (like decent beer, indian food, FHM and galaxy choc)!!

I got by on around £500 per month for spends, and managed to run a car (shared with two other guys), and pay for several return flights home to the UK.

The weather was generally fantastic, but as already stated, this can it's self cause problems with poor visibility, high X winds and tarmac temperatures of around 40 deg! (good reasons to make for the beach or the pool again)!! On the other hand, when it rains you can expect short term flooding and severe storms!!

Food was ok but repetitive, it may well have improved since. We didn't go hungry. Accomodation is top notch! Ground school was pretty good, some notes were poor, but we made our own and most people passed the exams without too many problems. Flight training was great fun, with good instructors and a fantastic fleet of aircraft (all identical spec)! Again, test results were generally very good.

I do actually miss the place, and might plan a weekend visit over the summer.

Best of luck,

w.s.

[grafity]

The place does seem nice I have to admit but I'm only getting out of school now so it'll take me the guts of a year if I push for it, with medicals aptitude testing and fund raising.

Sorry didn't get back to you eire_boy about the seminar. What did you think? I was at the 2 o'clock. It was an interesting enough talk I might go out to visit them in the next few months it seems like a good spot to do it, I like the fact of not having to worry about accomadation and grub and there seems to be a bit of crac.

[cliste]

hey
i was at the 14.00 one aswell and didnt really no what to make of the hole thing. have huge decision to make whether to go to jerez or aeromadrid or aerfan now.

[grafity]

I was the lad asking all the questions at the end. They all say the same thing about the conections with the airlines. I like the fact that Jerez has everything up front, you don't have to worry about accomodation food or transport because its on site. And from what window seat and Touch'n'oops are saying the atmosphere is good.

I was just looking at the AeroMadrid site and the integrated course takes 20 months this seems a bit long you have to wonder if jerez is a bit more organised and efficient in general I got a better feeling about jerez. But, there's about 40 to 50,000euro in the difference although take all your living cost away for the year from those figures.

[Straightandlevel80kt]

Hi Grafity

Sorry for the delay getting back to you.

Not a mistake with the £100K, because the objective is to get a job, not just to finish the course.

A loan of £65K costs £77K if you pay it off over 10 years, and you will need a few grand for extra expenses during your 18 months on the course, so your budget is already about £80K, before allowing enough cash to stay current between graduation and getting a job and possibly pursuing a type rating (>=£20K). With interest on that further borrowing, it will not take long to reach and exceed 100K. And that's being conservative, assuming things go well. Ideally you'd want to have a contingency on top of that, so you're not flying on fumes.

Do the maths, be honest and trust yourself. It's not a holiday, it's a business decision which will have huge implications, financial and personal for the rest of your life. There's no room for sentiment or bullsh1t so you need to make the right decision for you, which you are comfortable with and which is based on a rational assessment of the facts, rather than a throw-away sales statistic.

I wish you well.

[grafity]

I see what your saying. I was looking for a price on the type-rating and having found one it was like getting the greatest kick in the.:ugh:

[mad_jock]

you need to budget for £100K sterling before commencing self funded integrated training

I am not doudting your math above. BUT for f :mad: s sake.

Why on earth are you even considering paying out nearly 3 times as much as the modular route for the same license?

I was 35-38k starting in 2000 including a FI rating and cost of living etc. I can see the nice factor of sunning yourself in spain for a year, but you could buy a large part of a house with the difference. But surely the 6 weeks, PPL and hour building is enough in the sun.

The other thing is as well it takes so bloody long to jump the hoops. I managed to start in september 2000 and complete and started work as an FI by May 2002. So if you take the 5 weeks off for the FI rating its less than the intergrated and there was more than enough dead time in the middle I could have taken another 6 months off the time taken (I don't know if could have managed the work load though with out the time off).

Another thing to think of is the fact you will be paying back that money for another 10 years. With the way the industry is now your bloody lucky to get a job in the first place and even more lucky if you can stay in continuous employment for 10 years.

What are the repayments like?

Averge FI if your lucky is 10-12k a year.

FO on turbo prop 20-25k a year when you start.

How on earth can these sort of salaries allow you to repay a 70-100k loan?

To be honest I think its criminal for the banks to allow people that much unsecured credit in the first place.

MJ

[jonathang]

Hi all,

I am definitely swinging in the modular direction for reason MJ explained.

However with regards to Jerez.

I was speaking to an ex Integrated student last week who had a hard time with them.

He talked about the double standards between Sponsored students and the Self-Funded students.

And the fact they had your money and failure at early stages resulted in huge financial losses on the student’s part.

Anyone else has any negative experiences such as this?

:ugh:

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I doubt very much whether you get much second class citizen treatment in Jerez. But. Fact is if you HAVE to slip a course back due to a fortnight of bad weather then do you slip:

Course A: who are airline sponsored, have a fixed completion date, and an expensive type rating course booked the week after, and line training scheduled for the month after that so they can go online for the start of the summer ops season next year.

or,

Course B: who are self sponsored, have nothing lined up for when they graduate other than a lot of letter writing and CV posting, the prospect of months of interviews and selections if they are lucky and possibly no job for many many months if ever.

You slip Course B.

You minimise it, you apologise for it, you cover the extra accomodation costs of it. But thats what you do.

Cheers


WWW

[jonathang]

Thanks for the reply WWW.

I understand the thought process behind that.

I did not explain clearly.

With regards to the double standards he was talking about pass standards not being across the board.

Cut straight to the point he was talking about how the standards of pass were held higher for self funded against cadets, from his opinion on the basis they were a larger renewable contract.

He was leaked the fact they wanted him out from the start.

He did persist not through choice, because they had his money and ended up with 1st time CPL / IR passes.

Not saying everyone will have had these experiences just concerns me with regards to Integrated training there hearing this.

Thanks Jonathan

P.s. on flip side know cadets who were very impressed.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

What? Apply higher pass standards to self sponsored? Why and How? To what end? Get them to fail and then need more lessons for re-test?! Just how does that put any money in the instructors or examiners pocket?

You think the instructors and school beancounters are in cahoots? More like sworn enemies. You think instructors like putting their students up for test anticipating a beasting and a fail? No way. Wouldn't happen. Bollocks.

If anything its the silver spooned sponsored cadets that get the beasting - remember no instructor every got a cadetship.. Plus its kind of morally right that they should work harder, do better, try more - they have the RHS of a BoeingBus just waiting for their backsides in a few months time. Plus airlines want/demand more feedback on their cadets and due to their selection they expect to see Above Average stamped all the way through their files. This leads to sponsored courses being pushed harder in training and having higher standards expected of them all round.

If a sponsored cadet turns in on Monday morning looking the worse for wear after the Sunday pool party then they tended to get a military course style debreifing on how they had better well sort it out - else. Whereas what can you actually say to the self sponsored chap who is there at his own expense? Tends to be more of a 'quiet chat' about how to best achieve success.

Anyone bleating post course that they were badly treated and that others had preferential treatment was usually someone who struggled on the course and failed to be popular.

Cheers

WWW

[grafity]

This is one thing they braught up in their seminar on sunday. They were adamint that everyone was treated the same and that there was no preferential treatmeant between sponsered and sell funded students. They were saying that both types were integrated into the same class that there was no seperation in the accomodation andd so on.
What I'm getting at is, this was part of their speech no-one asked if it was going to be a problem of this sort. It had never crossed my mind anyway. Maybe it's an old problem or something. I know that FTOs tend to oversell themselves but it would seem a bit weird to highlight their downsides.

[jonathang]

WWW,

I only bring up what his experience, and your right he was not liked by a few of the ex military instructors.