A couple of descent/landing questions that a very kind 737 pilot could answer

[Gin Slinger]

Hi, I'm currently part way through line training on B737; mostly it's progressing well, however there are a few things I need to iron out to progress further.

1. The Descent. I'm on path using VNAV & LNAV. Then I'm kept very high by ATC at an intermediate level, I reduce the speed using SPD INTV, and then increase it once I get further descent clearance and possibly use some speedbrake too. Is this how you would handle my scenario?

(Also, I think I understand the concept of VNAV PATH, that it will keep to a vertical profile using pitch, therefore lacking overspeed protection, so might LVL CHG be a more appropriate mode to use in my scenario?)

2. Landing. I get the aircraft to 50ft at the right point in space, the right speed and power setting. From then on in I lack consistency. Can anyone talk me through exactly what is their thought process and physical actions to achieve a consistently safe (and hopefully reasonably comfortable) touchdown?

(What I'm particularly interested in is the shift in aim point at 50ft, Mr. Boeing in the FCTM seems to imply this is purely a visual aid to help judge the rate of descent, rather that a physical control input, whereas my Trg Capt suggests actually reducing the sink rate at 50ft.)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Level Change is easier to grapple with than VNAV so maybe use that more.

Past 50ft, close your eyes, wait until the call 20 FEET then check back 1cm on the yoke and close the throttles smartly. Works a lot of the time.

Like your training at any previous stage - confidence is the key and that will only come with time.

Cheers

WWW

[Right Way Up]

Gin Slinger,
You do not mention which variety of 737 you are training on, 3/4/5 or NG or even 200, unfortunately it can make quite a difference. With regard to high on profile your thought process on bringing back the speed is bang on. WWW is quite correct about LVL CHG, but in your circumstances with SPD INTV available slowing down in VNAV is equally reasonable. Just do not use speed intervene when asked to speed up in Path, you will struggle to get the path back. (i.e. VNAV will increase thrust whilst keeping the path to get to the higher speed).

[Gin Slinger]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

RWU: I've been flying the NG so far, but I'm switching to the EFIS from now on.

WWW: I hear the EFIS is easier to land than the NG, so perhaps the 20' pull-n-chop method will work for me. I will not close my eyes though!

[Sobelena]

Actually rumour has it that WWW closes his eyes passing the OM ;)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I sometimes secretly peek...

Actually I've just moved from the 300 to 700 and find the 700 a lot harder to land and takeoff consistently. Whereas I pretty much had the 300 buttonholed I have find myself floating along and banging down with regularity at the moment.

There is quite a difference between the two - the 300 being easier I think.

Cheers

WWW

[dicksynormous]

WWW method doesnt work every time. It is about confidence, Just use whatever "by numbers" which you find suits you until your confidence builds. Then just do what you did in a c150 and fly it mate..simple. Once you get to that standard in yourself then all the calls are purely an aide memoire to keep you focused after a nite larnaca. As for closing your eyes...well that sounds a bit like being blindfolded naked at a gay orgy and listenin to the count down in centimetres before your your ******ed intead of the aircraft .,,....or so i'm told:} :D :D :E

[mrsmaryhinge]

I think VNAV is fine in an ideal world where ATC leave you to it, and the descent winds are exactly as programmed in the FMC, but in the real world, I much prefer LVL CHG. I tend to use this, and the good old fashioned 3 times table (always keeping an eye on the wind of course) to ensure I'm on the profile.

Landing the old girl is a bit trickier! I've been flying it 3 years and still hit the deck with a bang sometimes - it's just that type of aircraft! I've been told by many a training captain that you can do everything correctly in terms of flare technique, and the 737 will still sometimes sit down heavy.

The biggest piece of advice I can offer is look out of the window! Like you say, get everything nice and stable and then between 50-100R, move your view to mid-way down the runway. A quick check in at the ASI to ensure you're not bleeding speed, then back outside, and as you feel the ground come up, flare, close the throttles, and hold the attitude.

As WWW says, it's more of a confidence thing. And don't believe anyone who says they don't smack it in occasionally - they are lying! The trick is to be like a top class striker after missing a sitter - learn from it, put it behind you, and get onto the next one!

Cheers...

Mary

[Kremmen]

Apologies for taking this thread slightly off-topic...but I was curious! Of all the landings I've had in a wide variety of aircraft the 737 has always been the one that "bangs" down...no smooth landing as I've had in the 747/777 etc, and this is regardless of airline. Any idea why?

[MerchantVenturer]

WWW

So it was you driving the orange pogo stick on the Lulsgate runway the other day was it? Only joking.

How long does it take to convert from the 300 to the 700 and is it all done in a simulator? If so, would your first flight in a 700 aircraft be with fare-paying passengers?

[Slim20]

Kremmen

A B747/777 pilot does about one landing a month so they have lots of time to think about it! (I could go on about ground effect and all the other refinements that make those two types infinitely better aeroplanes than the 73, but hey!)

Yer 737 pilot these days is probably knackered and on his fourth landing of the 6th day and just wants to get it down and go home without being too concerned about the comfort level.

(Am I getting cynical or what!)

[par for the course]

Slim20,
747/777 pilots do have hours to think about, but by the time we get there i would rather just have a kip. Also as i may not do one for another couple of weeks or more, there is a bit of pressure to do a good un.

As for 737, when i was on it I thought VNAV PATH did good job at the beginning (although did tend ti dive down too much for my liking), but would then use LVL CH or sometimes VS if high on profile. And would not even touch VNAV below about 20000ft. Although that was on 400, new ones may be better.
As for landing, I think 30ft flare as we were taught was bit high. Better to keep it coming down to about 20ft (as others have said),then flare while at same time closing TLs reaching idle at about same time as TD. Don't close before flaring.
As for getting it right, I go through phases where i think I've cracked it, only to go through a phase two weeks later where i hammer them all in!

[alexban]

You can make very nice landings on the 737. Some hints:
try to mantain speed on target on final.Do not fully retard throttles above 10',you can keep some thrust even to contact.Follow the FCTM and look ahead when you pass the threshold,this will help a lot.
Bellow 200 ' you can start checking the outside view,but not abandon the instruments.This will help you accomodate faster with the plane position and rate of descent and also avoid eventual bellow GS incursions.
The classic is easier to land than the NG due to wing characteristics.
Also the NG has a taller landing gear,so don't wait too much to flare bellow 10' otherwise you'll slam on the deck. I saw these hapening to all pilots that made transition from classic to NG.
You can start reducing ROD at 20'-30' ,not to much though,or you'll fly over the rwy like a glider,and be forced to make corrections that will eventually spoil your nice landing.
Sometimes a good ,positive landing is better than a very smooth,long one.For a begginer I won't recommand the effort to land very smoothly at airports with lot of traffic (or you'll see someone going around over you) or with short rwys. Just be on target,speed and ILS and do a positive one.Brake and exit as fast and safe as possible.
I hope this helps.
Brgds Alex

[seat 0A]

Hi Gin,

I`m probably jist stating the obvious here, but shouldn`t you ask these questions to your instructor?
If he can`t answer them to your satisfaction, maybe another instructor could? I mean, asking on this forum how to land a 737 is like learning to fly from a book. It simply isn`t possible.
Good luck!

[chocolate bob]

alexban is spot on regarding shifting to the outside vioew but not abandoning the instruments. Landing the a/c is by far one of the hardest things to grasp but eventually you sus it out and your confidence will grow and you will think what all the fuss was about!!

I found that by using the runway aiming points they helped make my landings much more consistent, after all that's what there are there for,

Best of luck

C.B.:ok:

[Maxrev]

Seat 0A, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and our newbie 737 driver was just asking others with a bit more 737 time under their belts for the way they do it. I don't see anything wrong with that. This is a pilot's forum after all!

;)