Just heard that BA are recruiting for their DIRECT ENTRY PILOT SCHEME

Take a look at

BA's website (http://www.britishairwaysjobs.com/roledescription.jsp?ID=2494002&MODE=2)

Shame I cant apply!!:ugh:

From the BA website

Skills, Knowledge and Expertise:
Full UK issued JAA/CAA ATPL or Frozen ATPL.
You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork.


My JAA ATPL was not issued in the UK, does this mean I cannot apply?

AD

You also need to be type rated on the A320, 744 or 777.

You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork.

What utter tosh. We're just ordinary people flying an airplane for a living for Christ's Sake. Any of the above is total hyped up cr@<hidden>!
This is so very indicative of the bullsh*t this industry has sunk into, dragging along with it the fun and cheer this job has ever had.
Today's aviation is just a chore precisely due to statements like that.
I've been flying long enough to know that none of the above is necessary, just be "normal", predictable, pleasant to your crew, fun loving, charming, accomodating - and you're just perfect for the job!

Their statement isn't even grammatically correct. Why can't BA even "demonstrate" that they can communicate properly in their own language?

This babble comes from every airlines' recruiting department. More scribblies trying to show how intellectually superior they are to pilots, I suspect.

Bet a case of poor grammar and bull$h1t doesn't stop hoards of people applying though :suspect:

So you have to be experienced on type and intelligent but you are willing to go the bottom of a long seniority list!

The intelligence bit rules me out!

Anyone who is thinking about it needs to think very, very hard. The Airbus fleet is 'maxed' out....everyone working all the hours God sends. Promotional prospects are virtually NIL. ( not an exageration). Moral is low. Pension ain't what it used to be. Junior pilots get shafted by the bidding system, and end up working ALL the weekends. ( got children ? ). I'll say that bit again....ALL the weekends....except those that come with your leave.
As a BA pilot be prepared to take stick from all quarters....BA themselves, the press, the cabin crew, other airline crews, etc etc. Do not expect any status to come with the package. Be ready for the face to face confrontation with crew transport drivers. Do not expect any response to your end of day voyage reports, explaining delays due to other depts failures.
BA pilot management are dealing with many part time applications, unpaid leave requests, and employment references from other carriers. All from current BA pilots, looking to find a way back to normality.
Many recently joined DEP's are depressed, feeling that they have made a big mistake. Some have been and gone...all in a year...back from where they came.

Understand this...BA is not what it was. You will be expected to work very hard, at the expense of any private life you have. There are hundreds in the queue for a command, all qualified, able, suitable...and with years to wait. You will be many years behind.

Otherwise....well we're getting a nice shiny new uniform soon !! And I have a lot of time and respect for our dispatchers and engineers. All great people.

I am just making sure you are all aware. Find a BA pilot and ask!!

Best of luck to you all.:suspect: :suspect:

I forgot to mention the long, long days. Reorts at 5.30am onwards..10 hour duty day, getting to the hotel at 4pm ish. , up next day at 4.30 am ish and do it again..for a 3 or 4 day tour. Followed by another back to back, and if you're lucky get 3 days off...but sometimes only 2 or even 1. It's cumulative fatigue. I spend my days yawning on the flight deck, pushing away the most vile and disgusting offerings called crew meals.

cib - a very accurate posting.

The only plus side is roster stability, however, as previously mentioned you'll be working every weekend.

Also, 15 years to command!

Oh and no Final Salary Scheme pension. Just a minor thing!

But even after all that....people will apply, lots of people!.....Thats the way it will be. 'The Worlds Favourite Airline' :p

Expedite :ok:

15 years to short-haul command. Probably c.20 for a long-haul command. If you get the 777 it will be much like cib's posting but with jet lag.

I'll second the excellent advice: find a BA pilot and ask.

So why are you BA pilots still there then, if its so awful?

I've seen your rosters and your pay packets.

Lets compare....
I'm a relatively senior FO working for a charter airline.
I get no bid lines.
I get a guaranteed 2 weekends off a year.
I get 37 days off per year (7 days = 1 weeks leave), this includes allowance for bank holidays.
Our early starts start at 03:30z, which is actually a night flight.
We can start at 06:00z after days off.
We only get 8 days off per month, not the 11-13 you guys get.
My work pattern doesn't improve with seniority.
This month I have 15 flying days, which will be anything from 8 to 12 hour days, 7 days away from home and (so far) 14 roster changes this month alone. We don't get a hotel after the 12 hour shifts. If delayed we might work 16 hours and still we have to drive home.
I'm on the command list but time to command is looking like another 5-10 years at least.
I take home £1000 LESS per month than a 3 year BA ex-cadet, who presumably is on reduced salary anyway.

So, I have an idea. You think BA offer a rubbish deal and other airlines are better.

So let's say we swap jobs eh???

So why are you BA pilots still there then, if its so awful?

1) Mainly for the pension, which the new guys won't get (not entirely sure I will).

2) Because I worked bloody hard to get here and I don't want to go to the bottom of someone else's seniority list unless I have to.

Airbus Girl...

So why are you BA pilots still there then, if its so awful?I don't think people are saying it's "awful". It's just not what some think it is....

When you fly with someone who has joined BA, and after <1 year is totally disillusioned, and wants to return from whence they came, it sums up to a seriously disadvantaged career. Earnings, seniority, domestic upheavals etc. Others give up a Command to do the same job in BA but in the RHS (i.e. P1 BMI A320 to P2 BA A320), and are as happy as Larry with the change.

Just research it properly - some don't. Sounds like you have...

From a non Flying section of BA can any of the pilots explain why on earth BA is reducing its manning levels by offering part time working then recruiting extra staff.

Is this just bad business or what?

Don't forget that as there will be no FSS for new guys this equates to 22.5% decrease in your overall package - the effect of the massive reduction of company contributions to your pension pot of gold. To new DEPs in the Charter business this may be an important factor in your thinking. Comparing what a current BA pilot gets to what you guys will get is not comparing apples with apples.:uhoh:

Airbus Girl

I just KNEW someone would take my post the wrong way. Today it was you. I certainly do not intend to compare and see who has it worse. Understand this.. my post was NOT a whinge.

It is a fact...everyone coming into BA from the charter companies has had a shock. Some have left again, and gone back to doing what you are. They didn't nesessarily find it harder or easier, but their previous employment gave better prospects and much more time with families.

Try to look at things from a different stand point for once.


Well that's me.

BA has to comply with EU employment directives. Look them up if you don't know what I mean.
The cost to BA if it didn't offer the part time contract would be to possibly lose the pilot. The cost implications to BA of replacing a capt are SEVERE. (10 years ago it was unheard of to see a BA capt. considering a move. Nowadays is different. Some have left already, others are looking at Easy Jet, Emirates, Ryan, etc etc. ).

Please everybody. My post is a heads up. Nothing more.
:ugh:

WtM,

I may be wrong but I think under current employment law, all large companies are required to offer part-time working to their employees. Whether or not they make it easy is a different matter.

HF

PS: Edited to say cib just beat me to it... ;)

My God, its not all that bad!...and I'm a junior Airbus FO.

Fair enough, it may not be as good a deal as ten years ago and okay as a cadet I don't have another airline to compare BA with in terms of working as flight crew - but this job is a damn sight more fun and pays a damn sight better than sitting behind a desk (after one year I now earn more than many BA line managers).

Yes the weekends (or lack of) is a pain in the arse and yes Heathrow can be a nightmare but the the variety of destinations, roster stability, masses of leave, 12-13 days off a month and a decent wage...with the prospect of an improving lifestyle with seniority kind of make up for the downsides. Please, please apply so I can get further up the seniority list!

Well thats me.

The only people getting part time at the moment are getting it for compassionate or childcare purpose. Everybody else who wants it (and thats lots) can take a running jump.

Airbus Girl

Perhaps you might to consider that when someone is junior on a fleet they get no bidlines either, just blind lines. They get no guaranteed weekends off per year. They will get 42 days leave per year (7 days = 1 week), but will have to take it in 7 or 14 day blocks booked up to 10 months in advance - no option to take a single day. Our earlies report from 0500Z at LHR, with pick ups downroute as early as 0310Z. We can also start at 0600Z after a day off. Also how can you only get 8 days off per month if you're only flying 15 days this month (compared to my 18)? Our work patterns don't necessarily improve with seniority either; more control of days off perhaps, and a few less earlies, but you'll work just has hard at the top as you will at the bottom, only not on the weekends. 8 to 12 hour days are equally routine, but I bet you won't be doing four sectors through LHR with a terminal change and 3 aircraft changes as well. 7 days in a row away from home? Not uncommon. I've got 13 nights away from home this month, and thats a light one. And no hotel for me either when I finish another 12 hours shift and have to spend 2 hours driving home and 2 hours driving back (seen how much it costs to live in the South East) to report 13 hours later. I'm still at least 5-10 years from command too. Plus I get to do this month in, month out, no slacking off and taking it easy in the winter season. 750 flying hours logged last year, almost double that time on duty.

Of course I do get well paid for it (eventually) and my roster rarely changes, but the guys I know who came from Airtours, Monarch and JMC all reckon they're working harder now than they were before so it's not all rosy.

Hand Solo:

I had it in my mind that the CAP371 (CAA rules) only allow 1 hour 30 minutes to drive to work?

Are you not breaking the rules every time you report for work?

Well that would be me and about half the flight crew in BA, along with a signifcant percentage of cabin crew who drive even further (Nottingham, Devon, Cornwall!). BAs guidelines are that you should live within 2 hours drive of work. I think CAP 371 has limits on how far you can travel on company time before its factored into your duty but I'm not aware it dictates how far/long you drive to work. Might be wrong though. Anyway, its taken me two hours to get to Central London from LHR!

Wow. Thanks for making me feel so much better about my job!

Ryanair.

I get 2 weekends off in every 7 weeks.

I have a guaranteed 12 days off a month.

Roster is 5 on and 3 off indefinately (except on 6 occasions a year when it can be reduced to 2 days off)

I can honestly say that I have had approx 3-4 roster changes in the last 6 months and not one overnight in the last 1 and a half years.

Oh... and had to wait 2 years for my command upgrade.

If what you say is true about BA you have indeed made me feel a lot more satisfied in my job!!

Thanks!!

SF

Part time - forget it, its for the ladies only.

Flasher,

It's spot on. Enjoy your command.

411A,

I think there is something in CAP371 about that. Not sure of the details. However, at LGW it takes the best part of 30 mins from the car park to our crew report so I'm not sure how that'll factor in. I've been to Crawley, I'm not in a hurry to live there! :E

Brilliant ploy lads, pretend it's a terrible place to work, no one applies and then BA will have to increase our terms and conditions, very well thought out.

There are some DEP's in the airline who moan, and they are well known, most people know that the grass certainly isn't greener else where. Some people will never be satisfied, full stop.

If you fancy it, give it a crack, don't listen to the DEP whingers.

Dont see the problem, i'm damned junior in the right seat of the 400. Always get a trip line so long as i'm not silly and that gives me much more flexibility than my previous companies like it or lump it roster. At least i have some choice, even with a blind line theres a seed that gives you some chance of a day off (400 only). I realise in present circs it will be 15 yrs to command but i'm taking home more than previous co would pay a skipper. (i even get to sit in the left seat sometimes!). That said, if i was looking at a command on a big jet within a few years, or over say 35 I would think twice before jumping, but its really not that bad.

Any new aircraft in the next 5-10 years will of course shorten command time radically.

Airbus Girl,

Do your self a favour and join easyJet. You can do either 50% 75% or 100% roster.

Rosters are fixed 6 on 3 off (soon to be 5 and 3 we hope). It's easy to plan days off 6 months in advance.

Great potential for command (3000 factored hours).

We have our own issues but doesn't every airline. It's nice to be in your own bed at night.

The son of a colleague of mine has just made it onto the B747 fleet after literally working his nuts off for 5 years on the 737.
He joined knowing that the airline was changing, and that there will probably be more than a few changes in the future.
However, he still gets paid more than the vast majority of his equals in other airlines and he gets a real buzz out of being able to say that he works for BA.
He also knows that he has a long way to go to get a command, but he's prepared to put the same effort into that as to the effort he did in getting his licences and subsequently the job with B.A.

Put all that into perspective ladies and gentlemen, cos there are hundreds of potential BA pilots like him out there, BA know that, and I suspect that so do you.

If you don't want it, they do.

The plus point is we might discourage the Lord Flasheart types.

If anyones sucessful, good luck and go -400 a, its great fun, b, i go 1 up the seniority list. Its a win win!

:cool: :cool:

Hallo,

In my little mind this thread is sort of trying to compare apples and oranges. I realize that we are talking about employers and that they do have things in common. But the question is 'how/what do we experience/like about our job'? Airline flying jobs/companies are different. Period.

I was one of those who wanted to join the national carrier, it was about the only thing that would do it for me. I got there and I still enjoy it. I have difficuties seeing myself retirering from some other carrier. I am looking to go elsewhere for awhile, but just temporarely.

On the other hand I know people(not many) who have never applied to my company. They chose a different path and are quite happy.

And that is the point. Be happy with what you do. Enjoy it now and try to figure out if you will enjoy it later. IE, can I see myself in this company 15 years from now? For me, I can.

And let me assure you, we have had, and still have, our difficulties. My work situation has changed dramatically in the almost 7 years I have had this job. Nothing is like it was when I started. Probably for the better actually as survival prospects long term were sort of hazy.

Anyway, this is how I approach this.



:cool: :cool: :cool:

Brgds,

Ramrise

Ramrise has a valid point. We are all different.
Hands Solo has explained graphically what you WILL be doing as a junior Airbus FO.
If you are OK with this, go ahead and apply. I hope you succeed.

It is most probably easier to deal with this sort of lifestyle when single with no home ties, children etc. Perhaps I should have aimed my original post at those who have an established position in another company, and have a family at home. There is more to give up ( eg current seniority ), and more to lose if it doesn't work. This is when the decisions get harder, and involve more people than just yourself. Thorough research into the position you are applying for is important, and at least now, you are all aware. Do not simply assume it's a breeze at BA. And be aware that the rules and lifestyles are different longhaul / shorthaul. Different criteria apply, and so junior 400 pilots have a little more control over rosters ( just a little ).

To all you guys in other companies...we know you can, and do, work hard too. I have many friends in the charters and regional airlines. Let's have some mutual respect for each other. We have all worked very hard to get our qualifications, and we are all good at what we do.
Say hello to another pilot on the RT one day, as he gives way to you on the taxiway.:O :ok:

cib, the way you spout forth, you could end up in management...

cib, you also posted - "Say hello to another pilot on the RT one day, as he gives way to you on the taxiway".

WHAT?

management...me..????????? not in a million trillion squillion years. NO NO NO NO. Not ever ever ever.
ARRGGGHHH.......... the thought of it makes me want to curl up and die.

Sorry if my post was not to your liking.
( guess you won't be saying 'hi' then. )

:hmm: :(

Been in BA 7.5 years and 75% part-time for 3 of them and I think it's great. Don't earn anything like as much as my full-time collegues but I have a fantastic quality of life. I work about 12 days in a normal (no leave) month. My point being, is that the company offers an employee the opportunity to choose the type of involvement with the company and the career path that you want after the initial "you get what you're given" for the first 4 to 5 years. I've never been afraid to make requests to management regarding days off / changes. They either say 'Yes no problem' or 'No can't do that for you' but they always explain why not and/or offer other suggestions. This sounds a lot better than some of my ex-forces collegues who work for BMI and Charter outfits. Of course, it's better to be a P1 than P2, but to be honest it's better to go skiing with the family 4 times a year because the flexible working opportunities in BA make it possible.

cib
I thought BA was offering part time working with few strings as part of FSAS or FSAS2 to reduce the head count?.
While i support this as it protects jobs and i believe 10% of flight crew are currentl on part time working ( as opposed to 0% in engineering where it was NEVER offered at all ) it still doesnt seem very good business sense to then recruit full time replacements.

From a non pilot perspective again - it takes many years to train an engineer fully and at considerable cost,BA would still be happy if we ALL left ASAP

As DBW points out part time has many benifits,from a BA business point of view though this strategy seems extremely flawed.

If an employee has children under the age of 6, they are entitled to apply to their employer for flexible working hours. This is a result of an EU directive of some 12 months ago.
The employer has to have good reason to refuse, and may have to present this reason at any tribunal.

The change is to the contract, and is permanent.

In the case of most, flexible working means including the part time option.
This all applies to pilots.engineers....everyone. Just gotta have kids.!!

The majority of part time pilots, as far as I can see, have used this statutory right to secure part time contracts, rather than the business response schemes.

Hope this helps.:bored:

Good News - shame I cant apply either!

However anybody in the "know" know how many they are wanting to recruit? Doesnt seem to be mentioned anywere.

Jinkster

Numbers are.....4-500 pilots required over the next 3 years. ( source- BALPA )

Applicants with 500hrs turbo-prop for Airbus fleet (A321's arriving Oct '04 ), or 1500hrs Long Haul fleet.

Short Haul DEP starting salary £40,500pa + guaranteed expenses = approx. £50,700pa

Up this figure by a couple of thousand for Long Haul.

You might start at 0600L SH , but there's no 'night flying' !!

...and anyway, the golf courses are quieter mid-week.


:ok:

This financial year is 127. Good luck to those of you who apply.

By the way, I'm 100% behind getting new DEPs a better pension deal.

Come into this with your eyes wide open. The airline has a great deal to offer and is excellent to work for . . . but be prepared for :

1) working every weekend,

2) no leave during your childrens' holidays,

3) no respect from the management,

4) and being treated with utter contempt by the grossly overpaid cabin crew.

Lord Flashywatzits doesn't really exist, but if you are ex-mil, or a very experienced charter operator, be prepared for some "Senior" FO colleagues to be condescending. No offence, but it's their immaturity and inexperience which leads them to believe that seniority is more important than experience. Problem is . . . BA is driven by seniority.

Let's try and get this bloody pension changed.

Right enough typing!

Hey Top 10 what about the Night Athens from LGW, it is SH at LGW. 2045 to 0525, that to me is night flying.:cool:

Yes, Blackball - you're absolutely right...missed that one, and the other ones's probably coming to the Airbus like the night Larnaca come Autumn.

Better make the most of it while the sun's up.

:)

Top ten
can i ask what you meant about 500 hours turbo prop ? did i miss something? dont you have to be type rated? thanks

Type rated 400 & 777 guy's - where from ?

Maybe a few guy's from EK or Singapore but where else ! think BA will get plenty of 320 folks apply but may struggle with type rated long haul seats !

Good luck to all who apply !

Literally few from EK.... those that aren't still bonded probably have commands by now!

as was mentioned earlier flt ops have been allowed to recruit 127 this financial year. Trouble is we have nearly 170 retirements and a slighly increased flying program. Not sure how management intend to fly the program as there just ain't enough crew. I expect they want increased productivity from us to cover this but with many LH guys flying close to 900 hours annually....

Any luck ones joining direct in longhaul will be almost certainly on the 777 as most vacancies are there with a very few on the -400 if at all. Prob only type rated ones.

I doubt anyone from EK will be interested in BA, then again there's always the odd wild card:D

I will be pretty surprised if we get many type rated guys onto either the Triple or the 400. Trying to work out where they'd come from as I can't imagine too many people want to quit VS these days, or EK as someone has mentioned. Equally, are there many ex-pats in Hong Kong or Singapore who aren't sufficiently established out there to come back to the bottom of a seniority list?

Not criticising anyone who comes across, good luck to you all. Just curious as to whether the T&Cs on offer would be good enough to tempt the people they're aimed at.

Equally though, I can't imagine we'll have a shortage of people for the 'bus, particularly if you don't necessarily need a type rating.

What would a DEP on the -400 expect to earn p.a. or monthly take home. Also how many hours per year are you contracted and what is an average amount of days off a month.

Just curious

We're effectively contracted for the full 900 hours on all fleets. You will find on both the Triple and the 400 that you will do around 800 hours per year before any over time. If you do any extra above your rostered hours, you will get paid either your 'hourly rate' (an agreed figure of about £30 per credit hour ish as a year 1) if you volunteer for extra hours or one and a half times that if you are drafted. I can't speak for the 400, but on the Triple, there's unlikely to be enough space in the month for them to fit any extra work into. The Triple tends to do shorter trips overall.

For both fleets, expect about 14 days off per 31 day month, plus leave. Expect £2800 ish per full flying month after deductions at year 1.

That's a lot less than I thought longhaul guys and gals at BA were earning. To compare what does a SFO on these fleets take home? Say, someone at the 5 to 7 year point? I know time in the company makes a big difference to the basic but how much difference does it make to the take home pay? Just interested 'cos I've got a good mate in BA on the -400 and these figures don't tie up with the figures he gives me. He's been in BA now for 8 years - just didn't expect such a massive difference. Cheers.

for SFO's depends on a few things. Deductions can be different for each person: some contribute more to their pension, family medical insurance, BALPA subs, recreation clubs, share save etc.

PP10 SFO 777 take home is around £4000 pm month for a full months work - around 86-92 hours. Obviously less for leave months as we have quite a lot of variable pay compared to other airlines although a lot less than it used to be.

At the moment a lot of overtime available due short crewing so if you wanna do extra you can and earn a lot more.

As a pp7 on the Triple, I take home £3.6-3.8k per month based on a full month's work (CAP) and max pension contributions, with no overtime. BALPA subs, etc. are still to come off that. As I said, on the Triple there's rarely any space on the lines for overtime. However, if we recruit enough new guys.... :ok:

Assuming barnstormer is at pp10, he'll be senior enough to get credit efficient trips which will allow him time to do extra work.

Mactom It doesn't seem a lot of money does it? Bearing in mind a plumber in the SE can expect to get close to those figures.

Ah yes but once all these new plumbers come on line salaries will plummet, just like the IT boys salaries did. One £100k a year IT guy recently drove me home in his taxi....you can't get on a plumbing course for love nor money...

£2800 in the first year isn't too hot but the longterm figures PP10 and PP7 are good.

Don't think they'll have any problem recruiting but they won't get me :(

Always wanted to work for BA but live in the regions and happy with my meagre £2700 net (after pension contribution), 14 days off this month and no night stops!

Scottie That's a good attitude to have. Most of us that can live outside the SE of the U.K do so. Unless you bought property 10 yrs ago, it is very difficult to afford anything decent for less that 500K. BA's salaries don't cut it I'm afraid. The regions used to be an alternative , but alas, no longer. One of the reasons the -400 is so popular is that it enables one to commute. Latest figures from Ops is that over 1/3 of the fleet now commute by air. Lord knows how many more drive for a couple of hrs from the Cotswolds or the Midlands. Another option is to go part time. Again, very popular if you can get it!

I joined BA as a DEP on the - 400 a few years ago, having been up to then a Captain on A320. I guess I joined because I wanted to prove to myself that I could get into BA and because I felt like a change of scenery. I was fully CAA rated on the - 400 with about 4000 hrs in the right seat of the Classic and -400 combined. My rating was still valid, i.e it was less than 5years since last LPC had lapsed, but BA gave a complete type rating course to everyone, followed by about 16 long haul sectors to check out. SO WHY DO THEY WANT - 400 RATED GUYS, if they're going to do the full course all over again?

Anyway, I only stuck it for about a year, as under the bidline sysyem the junior guys get ALL the crap, i.e. endless standbys and no stability. Plus the money was crap compared to what I could make on contract as a A320 Captain.

So, my advice is: if you want to get a - 400 rating for free and try longhaul, definitely apply. It'll be a feather in your cap if you get in; you will have proved to yourself you're as good as 'the best'. But if you want to have some some chance of a command before you die of boredom on 14 hr sectors, don't.

Busjetdriver

So where are you working now? Do you do short term contracts,?
I would be interested to know what other options are out there for Airbus drivers.

Cheers
cib:)

busjetdriver

You are absolutely right. Wonder how long it will be before BA have to start bonding people for type ratings? I'm sure it wont be long! What a sad reflection on the 'World's favourite!'

For a long time now, BA has been 'just another airline', and T & Cs are constantly being eroded.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that even if you were CURRENT on the type you joined BA on, you would STILL get the full course!

People considering joining BA should think very carefully about your post!

I wish all those who want to join BA well. It’s not the company it used to be though. The work is getting harder and harder, and a relatively sizeable proportion of your duty time is spent faffing about, not flying aeroplanes.

Against that background we have a management that is determined to destroy the professional status of flight crew, and treat you like fork lift operators. We are in all likelihood about to go through a bloody and acrimonious dispute on the lines of Cathay Pacific – The Empire Strikes Back.

By all means be enthusiastic to join the World’s favourite, but please come in with your eyes open. You’ll need to think about your own circumstances, and whether you can afford to make your own independent pension provision. There is a very real chance that BA pilots will be on a par with Aviva bus drivers by the time they’ve finished with us.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/roobarb/gallery/birdman.shtml

GUYS

QUOTE
"PP10 SFO 777 take home is around £4000 pm month for a full months work - around 86-92 hours. Obviously less for leave months as we have quite a lot of variable pay compared to other airlines although a lot less than it used to be"

By my Calculator again ( previous post ) this puts BA First officers on about 80K plus.

I wish you all the very best but if a F/O is getting 80K i hate to think what a Captain gets,and heres me thinking all you boy scouts did it for the love of flying!!

86 - 92 hours as well that means your getting close to Working a 23 hour week - i take it this is the part time thats being refered too?

"Well thats me" - not a very educated post... obviously you spend the time at the desk. Oh well

Maximum number of flying hours in a year = 900 => 75 hours per month

Maximum number of flying hours in a month = 100

So by doing 80ish hours a month you will get close to 'maxing' out your annual hours. So 23 hours per week is full time. Also remember that these hours are block times, not duty times, which can be a big factor in shorthaul - you may spend hours between flights.

Most -400 and 777 pilots can expect to do 800-900 hours per year, and if one were to join the mighty airbus fleet you can expect to do around 750 hours per year. Mostly by day and frequently at weekends!

Pay attention at the the back of the class Well Thats Me,

Not a BA pilot but my roster on shorthaul has 80hr block flying time but 160hrs duty per month, so that's about a 40hr week then. Seeing as I work a shift pattern of 6 and 3 a busy week can see me working a 55 hour week!

CS + Scottie
Conceded - My mistake but it was a partial windup,i knew the hours quoted were flying times.i just didnt know how that related to real hours reporting.

I was trying to make comment about posts - "The moneys not that good anymore " - i and lots more here consider 80K + for a F/O to be very good considering ( and i know you will correct me here ) a SFO position occurs by default after a set time - ie you just have to wait,and its all for a average working week.

BA went to great lengths last year to tell the world that the new pay deal arranged specifically for flight crew made the shorthaul crews the " HIGHEST PAID IN EUROPE ".

BA went to great lengths last year to tell the world that the new pay deal arranged specifically for flight crew made the shorthaul crews the " HIGHEST PAID IN EUROPE ".
That’s hardly surprising is it? They’re not going to tell us what a bargain they got, are they?

http://www.sausagenet.freeserve.co.uk/roobarb/roobarb_laugh.jpg

Hello 111boy - to your question....

DEP's will initially be required as ZFT rated - this is to be trialled with pilot's 500hrs min. straight onto the Airbus fleet.

No type rating required.

If you're (or anyone else interested) see www.britishairwaysjobs.com/cc/pilots/index.jsp

Good luck!

It's not all doom and gloom..

:)

Roobarb
I guess your right but at the end of the day you voted for it ( By Majority !! ) and it was a better deal than any other sections in BA.

" HIGHEST PAID IN EUROPE ". Is not something BA can boast about in engineering thats for sure!!!!

To the guys that answered my question on pay points - thanks.

To 'Well that's me' - yes 80K a year is good money, particularly in the right seat. I took home 4200 this month as a Captain at Easy and I have to say I am generally very happy with my lot (bring on 5 on 3 off though!!). But don't forget this profession is very difficult and very expensive to get in to, I carry a lot of responsibility so I don't feel I am overpaid having forked out 50K and lots of effort to get where I am today! Cheers.

Mactom
Thanks for a honest reply.

BA is well paid for Pilots - when BA incorporated Cityflyer into it a couple of years back some of the City Captains doubled their wages ( The Licensed engineers took a pay cut but that's another story ).

I can and do understand the outlay for a CPL / ATPL and the constant worry of medical issues etc,all my comments were addressed at the BA pilots who seem to feel hard done by,lets be honest the American big carriers pay more but most are in the process of going bankrupt.
80 - 90 K for a F/O at age 40 looking towards a command and then retirement at 55 sounds good to me, and i leave the field open for anyone who disagrees.

PS Some of the Engineers i know have paid out well in excess of 10K of their own money for training / Exams etc ,i know this is not comparable to your own but when your getting paid 25K its a lot and never gets recovered.

American carriers do pay their pilots more but it is not that, that is bankrupting them. If only it were that simple!

Boeing 7E7

Of course its not that but it certainly doesn't help,the point i was making is they cant Afford to pay their crews what they do anymore than BA they can afford Ivory towers and plastic spoon managers - you know what i mean,if you think of it there's no wonder the LCC have had such an effect.

Were it not for slot regulation etc the LCC would obliterate the longhaul market as well.:ugh:

I am a DEP and now fly the 400 for BA having done my first four years on the 757/767. The money seems very good but I have to say moving with a family to the South East to work shorthaul was costly and only a move out of the area will free up some of my salary. I can commute now on the 400 but would have to return to the South East for a shorthaul command. DEP's tend to be older than cadets and there is definitely a cut off age where joining BA will mean that you will never really be senior in the right or left hand seat if you follow the normal career progression (shorthaul fo longhaul sfo shorthaul command longhaul command.) You will therefore always be working weekends bank holidays etc. Luckily I was under 30 when I joined and now on longhaul have reasonable choices for my roster. If I leave the south East I will give up the opportunity for a shorhaul command but will be quite senior on the 400 and will have a great lifestyle. I enjoy working for BA and was very pleased to have been selected. It is a huge company that looks after its pilots better than most other UK airlines. However as BA each year reduces the gap by chipping away the benefits the moral especially for those that have known nothing else is low. Small companies can have low pay and ordinary terms and conditions but can be great fun to work for my last one was. You know the engineers the ground staff and all the pilots. BA is more like being a contract pilot you go to work do your job have a good trip come home and never see that crew again. Do you want the money or the lifestyle. This is just a heads up for those who want to join I wouldn't stop anyone from applying but if you are over 33-35 you will never be senior and the above will apply. The only warning I would give to all new entrants is that the pension change for new joiners will mean that you would have to pay a large part of your pay into the new scheme to have anything like the pension conditions we now luckily enjoy. Balpa are trying to mitigate your loss but the support for new entrants from those already in the airline may be limited. Good luck to all those who apply I hope you find that the grass is greener here I did. :ok:

Thx JAZ for the info. Thats just the facts I have been looking for since this thread was started.
I am in a pretty good RH position on the -400 with my current company, but one cannot help looking around!;) Having had a look at the BA webpage it is clearly stated that only pilots with a UK issued JAA license can apply. Does anyone here have an idea of how the procedure is these days for, say a Danish JAA-ATPL beeing validated in the UK?

Keep the shiny side up!

Most type rated pilots joining BA do a shorter conversion course, unless paired with someone changing types that requires the full course. Hence some DEP joiners do the full conversion course, and some a shorter course. Its still necessary to complete AWOPS/LPC and SOP training so a minimum of 4-5 details normally on the 320/777/744 fleets

As I said some get the full course...many don't. This changed about 4 years ago

Zak

Is Command time really 15-20 years?

Could well be. When I joined in the late '80s I flew with 20+ year co-pilots. At that time there had been no expansion, no retirements and many BA sponsored pilots who were lucky to gain commands in their twenties who then sat in the LHS for the next 25 - 30 years!

I was lucky and gained command after 10 years because the aforementioned people have been retiring at a rate of knots for the past 5 or 6 years.

However now we have the cadets sponsored by BA in the early 90s gaining commands in their twenties............etc., etc.

Expansion (not anytime soon) could change that and people like myself who joined late will be retiring in the near future BUT 10 - 15 years might be realistic.

As someone who has worked for other airlines the pay and conditions in BA, despite the unbelievable whinging and moaning from those who have never known anything different, are both very good.

The pay, hotels, bidline, choice and quality of aircraft, staff travel, pension (for incumbents), and a few other less tangible benefits are second to none.

On the negative side we have so much internecine jealousy, especially between pilots and a notable proportion of cabin crew amongst others, that it is actually not the most pleasant of companies to work for in many respects.

When I joined I felt at last that I was secure but now the future is far less assured than many believe.

On balance there is nowhere I would rather be and I know which side my bread is buttered but with the continual erosion of terms and conditions, the latest being the loss of a final salary pension scheme for new joiners, the decision is far from clear cut. Especially for someone over 35 - 40 with some seniority elsewhere.

I thought your post provided a well balanced and objective view of the situation in BA.

In the light of the new pension arrangements in place for all prospective employees, coupled with other factors (such as time to command) one would need to make sure that the prospective move was looked at very objectively.

You will work with some fantastic people in the air and on the ground.


Regards
Exeng

gotta remember as well that in LH your monthly downroute expenses can add up especially on some of the longer trips. I reckon most people spend around £300 plus, which is a lot more than I spent when I was on SH.

ATB

ONCECIMBER,

You should in theory be able to work in BA with an unrestricted JAA ATPL NOT necessarily issued by the UK CAA . The burning question is whether BA will hire pilots with licences issued by other JAA countries and not the UK. With the present flight ops management and specifically the man in charge ( PoD for those wondering who he is) I do not believe this will happen. I hope I am wrong and wish you luck.

Best regards

The Viking

M.Mouse
"On the negative side we have so much internecine jealousy, especially between pilots "

Can you explain that?

Thank you.

Yes, the sentence has to be read completely.

especially between pilots and a notable proportion of cabin crew amongst others

Sorry it wasn't clear probably my lack of good punctuation and grammar!

Time to command in BA is as long as a long piece of string, very long.

With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now.

No fancy pension any more and no big starting salary.

No new aircraft deliveries in sight just cutbacks.

They are just covering themselves by starting the pool again just in case they dont pull out of gatwick.

The Prince of Darkness is just covering his rear BEWARE.

EasyJet seems a better bet.

WhoopWhoop Whoops,

You may be right with the first part of your post, butEasyJet seems a better bet. ???????? I think your location is correct - you really are out of the loop!

Sorry, yes there may be quick time to command with easy, but nothing else is better !

WhoopWhoop Whoops

Quote
"With the change in the retirement age post 2006 it will add 5 to 10 years to the 10 to 15 it is now."

This is state pension related ( or Correct me ) ,company pensions FSS or MPS pay out on agreed dates and thats not affected.

expedite_climb
I wouldnt worry too much about BA pilots joining Easy,things are too good for that:D :D

Yes I am out of the loop with EasyJet

But I am in the loop with BA

I did 24 years to command and I started from school!! Thats why I am still here..

Our current retirement age of 55 will change after 2006 by law so the old timers like me who were due to retire 2007+ will probably stay.

The rewards were always at the end of the rainbow in BA, you have to be young at the start.

BA has in the last 10 years taken in large numbers 1000 + of young cadets under 30 some at 23, the early ones were lucky and got quick commands after me. But there are a lot of older cadets and later direct entry pilots that do not have the seniority relative to age. They at best can expect to be junior captains on shorthaul or permanent longhaul copilots.

In short if you are over 30 forget BA.

To add to this you have to say that BA is in trouble our own Chief Exec has said so. Costs have to be cut etc. I feel in a few years Easyjet will have forced us to contract shorthaul, we will never be able to compete with our massive overheads which are not related to or under the control of the pilots.

We have dumped the final salary pension scheme for new pilots, and anybody joining now will be the first of the low contributary style pension group.

True the salary at the top is the best in the uk industry with GROSS salary incl everything BEFORE DEDUCTIONS of about 11000 to 12000 a month. BUT THATS THE TOP AND AS GOOD AS IT GETS.

We have a longevity pay structure so you have to have done more than 25 years AND be on a senior captain on the 777 or 747 to get that sort of money.

Most DEPS and older cadets will NEVER GET THERE!!!!!!!

The copilots and captains on shorthaul get similar money to every other operator like Easy Jet.

Hence my warning BEWARE of Pots of Gold you cannot reach. It is not the nirvana that everyone thinks.

WhoopWhoop Whoops

Please let me know what you mean regards 2006,i have no information that legislates company schemes at 2006,i thought your current agreements stands and i am genuinely surprised to hear otherwise.

What does surprise me considering the world climate is BA hasn't approached BALPA with a new contract arrangement for its flight crews along the lines of the cabin crew arrangement,i know you are having a sharp intake of breath here but if they offered the current crews 10% extra to agree a new contract for starters along the lines of EOG it would pay for itself in the future - i cant believe it hasn't been suggested.

I guess what a lot of us here are asking is just what is a " Lot of money " in relation to the job > shoot me down here but i am amazed and somewhat shocked to learn some of the crews are getting 150K - that's serious money

Well you

In 2006, European legislation will come into force that prevents discrimination on age. My understanding is that companies will not be able to enforce compulsory retirement on age alone - ie if as a pilot you are fit enough to pass a class 1 medical and competent enough to pass simulator checks etc, you cannot be forced to retire.

In BA (where pilots have a compulsory 55 retirement age) this may well see that restriction having to be removed, and flight crew being able to continue on beyond 55 to who knows what age. It is likely that a sizeable proportion of pilots would choose to extend beyond 55. For arguments sake if 50% go on to 60, then on average it will take 2.5 yrs longer for DEP's to get command. If the average pilots' length of service increases from 30 to 33 years, then is will take about 15-16 years to achieve a command, hence if you sign on as a 38 yr old ex RAF guy, you may not achieve a command until mid 50's.

I see you have an answer to the retirement question during 2006 it will be illegal to force anyone to retire possibly up to 75.

To a pilot this means a maximum of 65 ie the licence limit.

This will raise the time to command.

The longevity pay scale system in BA is often not appreciated. pay point 1 to pay point 28. 1 point rise per year of service starting from when you join.

This is unaffected by promotion to command you just change scales at your current point.

In BA we have a pay point 1 for a 777 747 capt. If the black death hit the pilot workforce you would get a 777 747 command immediately but you would have to wait 28 years to get 144000 incl allowances gross etc.

Their is a big difference in pay over those 28 years never mind the promotion aspects.

This means the big money only comes at the very end of your career and only a few guys get it for a short time and then retire.

Its all smoke and mirrors.

The benefit was that your pension was calculated on the best 2 years earnings hence it gave a big uplift to the pension before you left.

However that is not available to new pilots who will not have access to that scheme. Their pension will be calculated on what they put in over their whole period with BA it will be substantially less for the reasons I have just given.

And you still have to put the years in.

Potential joiners take note.

Whoopwhoop.
What are you talking about? The BA pay scale does not go from 1 to 28 as every REAL BA pilot will know.

The pension issue is not yet cut and dried, BALPA have yet to issue a ballot but have promised that the members will be consulted.

BA SH out earn Easy by some way. I'm BA LHS and my brother is Easy LHS. Whilst I never take home less than £5k a month (much more with draft) his take home is nearer £4k. We both work hard, as do all pilots these days. I certainly feel less tired than when on the -400.

The starting pay is much better now for new joiners than it has ever been. The basic has been increased and the variable pay is no longer tied to seniority as much as it used to be.

However I agree that the time to command is going to be very long. Assuming a retirement age of 55 nobody who joins BA who is older than 30 will ever get a LH command. The wait for a SH command will be AT LEAST 15 years. (Unless LGW comes good with the 'bus expansion). But that makes perfect sense, if the average carrer is 30 years and 50% of crew are Captains then on average it will take 15 years to get a command. If the CRA goes up then it could be much longer. But things always change in this biz.

WhoopWhoop Whoops.

Emphasis on the last word I think!

I'd me most gratified if I ever made it to the dizzy heights of Pay Point 28. Having said that, I'm only planning to stay for 31 years. :E

OK guys I havn't checked the number of steps in the scale recently so perhaps someone can advise me . I simply don't need to at the top.

It used to be 28 but I agree it might be as low as 25 now!!!!!!

Talking about take home pay is a waste of space everybody's deductions tax etc are different.

I am right in my figures and that much I know. The pension scene is a dead duck BALPA has done nothing about it and I do not see the BA pilots going on strike for the new hires to get a special deal,relative to other BA staff.

My group didn't pull the plug when NAPS the replacement for APS came along with its worse benefits and I do not see the current pilots doing the same for some new guys so they can get a better deal now that NAPS has been given the chop.

Each generation has looked after itself for one reason or another.

I wish people would say it as it is. and not try to slant the facts.

Whoopwhoop Whoops

You seem very certain that 2006 will bring continued jam for you! Maybe it will, and maybe it won't (there are frequently exemptions from EU law for the transport industry) Let us see where we stand in 2006 eh!

Personally, if it comes to a vote, I will vote NO. (even though I am already a shorthaul captain!)

People like you are far too smug for my liking, and deserve whatever it was you signed up for. Isn't it enough?

Why do you think you deserve more? YOUR seniors retired at 50 didn't they?

Got a crystallised pension?

Guys,

Surely if the COMPULSORY retirement age at 55 is lifted, BA must still honour your terms, allowing you to retire at 55. I'd say a large proportion of the pilots would be better off taking the pension and then getting jobs elsewhere too, like many have in the past? Don't you think?

Of course if you were a late joiner and havent made the dizzy heights of PP 28 or 25 or whatever then that may not apply !

WWW

Something doesn't ring true with you, everybody knows how many steps there are in the pay scale and and you still have it wrong...the number is neither 25 nor 28.

"You will need a first class flying record and a good level of physical fitness.
Demonstrable evidence of leadership, intellect, determination, reliability, high personal standards, motivation, flexibility, well developed customer service skills and teamwork."

I agree with skyclamp, what a load of bull ! typical ba crap !

"do you have a rating ?"
"can you fly an aeroplane ?"
"are you capable of having a beer with the lads ?"

would be more appropriate,

why do they always go down this silly road? they are wanting fully type rated pilots !!

"let's all sit in a room and build something 'purposeful' with lego !!"
:p

m.mouse

it is a fact that some of our senior long haul chaps are so far removed from anything that goes on below them ( and, for that matter, don't care ), that it could be that some do not know all details about pay points etc. They're more than happy where they are, and don't give a t--- about anyone else. ( why should they ? ).

toon.

So don't apply then. We'll manage without you.:ok:

They would have taken an interest in the pay restructuring deal last year and would, therefore, been well aware of the pay scales and their place on them!

From Tandem rotor
"People like you are far too smug for my liking, and deserve whatever it was you signed up for" I quite agree.. Well said.

cib, i,m to old to apply and never have, if i had my time again i may well have gone the ba route. my point was not to criticise anything to do with pay stuctures, working hours etc etc but to highlight that when you do go for an interview you are 'scored' on everything from how you stand to how you wipe your bottom ! by people who are not qualified in any way to judge you on how you make your professional decisions. Pointless nonsense !

Tandemrotor. You suggest that there may be a deferral of the Oct 2006 retirement legislation. Very unlikely. We signed up for this in the early 1990s. The completion date was 2002. When France and UK failed to meet that date, the other EU countries at the Berlin Summit gave us a final one-off exemption until Dec 2006 to comply. Failure to act by Dec2006 will now involve an automatic case at the European Court which can in theory mean unlimited fines. Individuals will also be able to sue the UK government for failure to act in accordance with EU law. EU law counts for more than BA Balpa ballots in this case.

I agree WWW is a bullsh*t artist.

Now for a serious question on the impact of the European Law on outlawing discrimination on the grounds of age or disability:

I am an SFO with BA. Progression up the seniority list is based on either expansion, or retirement. That is, when one person retires, we all move up the list by one number.

When I joined the company I could reasonably expect to retire at age 55, having achieved a command at some suitable stage. One could "plan" a career on this basis.

As I understand it, the Legislation must be in place by late 2006. BA has not said when it will raise the retirement age, but JH has said he expects it to happen in about September of 2006.

If things stand as they are today, I would have the seniority for a jumbo command in 2007 or 2008. If the retirement age is lifted, and a large number of pilots remain on their current types past age 55, there will be no progression up the seniority list, for up to 5 years.

Will I have any grounds for legal, or any other action?

BALPA seem to have their collective heads in the sand, trying to avoid taking either side.

Any thoughts?

BALPA seem to have their collective heads in the sand, trying to avoid taking either side.

Perhaps this is because they represent equal numbers of those for and against an increase in retirement age. However, I do know that both BA and BALPA are actively looking at all the implications of the proposed legislation.

Rod Eddington was reported to have said words to the effect that BA will not make a decision until midnight December 31st 2005 otherwise they will be sued by one disgruntled party or another if they act preemptively.

Your grievance that you made plans based on the conditions prevailing at the time of your employment is understandable but really doesn't bear scrutiny. Life changes and sometimes you win sometimes you don't.

I took out a mortgage in the 80s when interest rates were well below 10% knowing I could afford it. When interest rates peaked at over 15% I couldn't. Funny thing was the government didn't believe that the disruption of my plans was sufficient reason to lower interest rates again.

What it will probably mean is that you have to work a few years longer and will have had to wait a few years more for command.

If things stand as they are today, I would have the seniority for a jumbo command in 2007 or 2008. If the retirement age is lifted, and a large number of pilots remain on their current types past age 55, there will be no progression up the seniority list, for up to 5 years.
BALPA seem to have their collective heads in the sand, trying to avoid taking either side.What has the legislation to do with BALPA? They are working closely with BA trying to resolve the real issues over 2006. I appreciate your only concern is "your" jumbo command. However, bearing in mind that legislation for 2006 effectively bans seniority and pay increments altogether, unless BA is willing to justify them later in court (and be liable if their reasoning is not strong enough), and I think you might find the issue a little bigger than your jumbo command.
Will I have any grounds for legal, or any other action? I would think being able to sue a company for obeying the law a, errr, little optimistic!

I find it slightly amusing that someone should be worried about whether or not their command will come at a particular time, when what they should really be contemplating is whether or not they will actually be employed at all at that time.
(see deserting rats thread)

You find it amusing? Nice chap.

Diesel, sorry to have sounded callous, maybe amused was not a good choice of words.

What I meant is that I find it hard to believe someone worrying about when his LH command will happen when the writing on the wall says he'll be lucky to still be employed at all.

Snooky

Fair enough.Computers can make things seem harsher than intended.

As an interesting aside I just heard our Longhaul chief pilot (or general manager as they are called now) has resigned to go to Emirates. Should us BA types start to worry?

Worry? Nah...... The Guy had 18 months to retire, He was never going to make Flight Ops Director, He's already got a big pension. He's off to enjoy some time in the sun at a less 'battle weary' company.

Sound good to me:ok:

I work for BA as a llicensed Engineer and currently halfway through my self funded training. Do the BA pilots here think that somebody in my present position will have a chance of joining internaly if as people assume, they will have a job getting the right kind of people. I have been with the Airline for 15 years and although we all moan i happen to think its ok.

Do the BA pilots here think that somebody in my present position will have a chance of joining internaly if as people assume, they will have a job getting the right kind of people. I have been with the Airline for 15 years and although we all moan i happen to think its ok.

Always worth a try; although I know of none that have succeeded. In the past, they (BA) seemed to want people to 'earn their spurs' elsewhere, before being allowed near any of their nice (definitely not shiny) jets.

Good Luck!

Although, if you are passed 30, then I'd advise forgetting it. What doesn't seem to have come up in any of this thread is the fact that 2006 legislation or not- the retirement 'bulge' ends very soon. In a couple of years time the retirements will be running at just 30 or so a year - for a very long time, not the current rate of nearly 200 a year.

I was given the retirement figures projected forward until my own retirement in 15 (20?) years time. Despite being only 33 when I joined, my seniority (sic) number when I retire will be around 770. i.e. When I retire there will still be about 20% of the pilot workforce senior to me! To put this in perspective, I might - repeat might - be eligble for a long-haul command in around 10 years time - that will be 17 years in the right hand seat with this company alone!

And it gets better! Anyone joining today will be behind all of the 'youngsters' that came across from CityFlyer a few years back, not to mention the even younger 'youngsters' that were cadets. All of these people are in your way now - and will be in your way when you retire! Unless you too are a 'youngster'

Remember - in BA - seniority is EVERYTHING!

Just in case the message isn't clear.

SENIORITY IS EVERYTHING!!!

Right, I'm hoarse from the shouting, but I wish somebody had emphasised to me how important seniority is in BA before I took the plunge - I may still have jumped - but I certainly wouldn't do so now. (Remember, I was 33 when I joined, if you're a youngster you may be OK)

Cheers,

Underdog

To reaffirm that, I'm 30 with 25 years to do, having done 7. Assuming the new legislation didn't happen, I would retire at 55 with seniority of around 100. If I go on to 60, which seems increasingly likely, I may make it into the top 40. Either way, I'm likely to be a Captain (either longhaul or shorthaul) for around twenty years (assuming we stay in business). There are a great number of people who are the same age and considerably senior to me or younger with similar seniority. We will all be Captains for a very long time, therefore anyone joining today had better be either a) very young or b) have no aspirations to a BA command.

Sorry, but that's just the way it is. That notwithstanding, if you are prepared to accept the above, the money is pretty good, rosters are set in stone (more or less) and as you get more senior as a First Officer, your lifestyle will improve tremendously (choice of trips/days off) and current T&Cs are good, although the company are doing their level best to erode those (not that it's any different anywhere else). Just don't mention the pension.

Rocketboots,

I'm ex-BA staff currently in training too - check your PM.

Best regards,

Desk-pilot

Gentlemen I am not a bullsh...r.

The information I have given was broadly accurate and to enable candidates to evaluate the problems of joining BA when you are approaching 30 or 30+.

I have checked our agreements and the number of increments are 24 not 25 or 28 as I said earlier, that was the only error.

It would seem to be news to many BA pilots that the retirement age will soon have to change by law.

To those interested watch out for the white paper this October.

The legislation will pass through parliament during the winter of 2004 spring 2005.

Anyone who does not have a command by end 2005 is likely to have to wait, it is inevitable.

The airline is not expanding.

If you want to blame anyone blame the EU.

I think the days of BOAC are gone when groundcrew touched their forelocks to aircrew and the chaufeur was waiting at the bottom of the steps to whisk you to the Hilton.

Its all cheap and cheerful even at BA so if your expectations are dashed at the thought of having no respect for what you do then perhaps you should try some more mundane type of work.

I have mixed and matched from working on building sites as a labourer to living it up on megga stopovers. I know which I prefer and remind myself whenever I think the job sucks.

Flying is still a good job and BA are perhaps one of the better employers when you look at all the moaning on the threads about some of the lesser Fly by nights.

Just the way I think but then who am I!

Coop & BA Bear (BA= Bad Ass)

Reference the query whether it helps being employed by BA in another position before an internal job offer as a pilot.

A contemperary of mine at a previous company had joined BA as an engineering cadet and then left them to gain flying experience once he got his ATPL.

Several years later he reapplied as a DEP and they did not accept him. Can't think or see why.

Said individual is now a A330 Captain with Emirates.

I am sure he is not losing too much sleep over BA's decision a few years ago.

Probably the same thing that stops most serving skippers kids from being accepted( with the very odd exception)
Unless you are the Mgr Pilot recruitment , of course....
Then you can fly over on Concorde and pick him up when he graduates too.

SNOOKY

Yes I am worried whether the company will survive, but one management pilot leaving BA 18 months before his retirement age to take up a management position does not mean we are going down the tubes. Perhaps it indicates our managers are employable outside BA, as has happened in the past.

BOAC

Why dont you rejoin BALPA? Why do you hide in the BA only bit of PPRUNE?

NIGELONDRAFT

You have your A320 command, and have fallen on your feet somewhat. Well done. Others of us havent gone for a command as yet. My point is, the change in legislation may, if all those employed elect to stay until, say, 60, will affect every pilot in BA. There will be an effective FREEZE in place for 5 years.

M Mouse

"Rod Eddington was reported to have said words to the effect that BA will not make a decision until midnight December 31st 2005 otherwise they will be sued by one disgruntled party or another if they act preemptively."..................I thought the date would be DEC 31 2006, not 2005

Unless we voice our concerns, and BALPA polls us for our views, prior to legislation implementation, there will be NO new commands, and very few seat changes.

You acted on the Pensions cap, why not on this?

Come on BALPA, you need to represent ALL your members

BAJSFO

Q1 Come on BALPA, you need to represent ALL your members
You answered your own question. Any 'representative' organisation that tears up signed agreements in order to disadvantage a minority group and advantage a majority group does not warrant a 1% subscription from ME

Q2 Why do you hide in the BA only bit of PPRUNE

I do not, but it is a policy that I recommend to you. One would think that the logical place for calls for BACC action would be on the BACC forum, no?

Great to see the usual BA bickering here in public - it must give BA management great hope.

Since I had no intention of joining this thread, bye-bye. I'm 'out to grass' soon, anyway.

Here are the BA pay Rates to enable candidates to make an informed choice about BA.

CAPTAIN
................LH........................MH...............................SH
24........120700........ .......104600.......................102300
23........117800................102400.......................100200
22........114900................100200.........................98100
21........112000..................98000.........................96000
20........109100..................95800.........................93900
19........106200..................93600.........................91800
18........103300..................91400.........................89700
17........100400..................89200.........................87600
16..........97500..................87000.........................85500
15..........94600..................84800.........................83400
14..........91700..................82600.........................81300
13..........88800..................80400.........................79200
12..........85900..................78200.........................77100
11..........83000..................76000.........................75000
10..........80100..................73800.........................72900
9..........77200..................71600.........................70800
8..........74300..................69400.........................68700
7..........71400..................67200.........................66600
6..........68500..................65000.........................64500
5..........65600..................62800.........................62400
4..........62700..................60600.........................60300
3..........59800..................58400.........................58200
2..........56900..................56200.........................56100
1..........54000..................54000.........................54000




F/O
..................LH.......................MH..............................SH
24...........90525..................78450.........................76725
23...........88350..................76800.........................75150
22...........86175..................75150.........................73575
21...........84000..................73500.........................72000
20...........81825..................71850.........................70425
19...........79650..................70200.........................68850
18...........77475..................68550.........................67275
17...........75300..................66900.........................65700
16...........73125..................65250.........................64125
15...........70950..................63600.........................62550
14...........68775..................61950.........................60975
13...........66600..................60300.........................59400
12...........64425..................58650.........................57825
11...........62250..................57000.........................56250
10...........60075..................55350.........................54675
9...........57900..................53700.........................53100
8...........55725..................52050.........................51525
7...........53550..................50400.........................49950
6...........51375..................48750.........................48375
5...........49200..................47100.........................46800
4...........47025..................45450.........................45225
3...........44850..................43800.........................43650
2...........42675..................42150.........................42075
1...........40500..................40500.........................40500



To the above add £10 per flying hour for cpts £8 per flying hour for copilots.

Also add £2.50 for each hour on duty at base to off duty at base which are allowances for meals etc.

Also add £10 per night Cpts and F/Os for each night out of the UK

The above variable amounts work out to about about 12% of basic for Cpts
and 21% of basic for First Officers

Just to recap

At least 15 to 20 yrs to a command if you join now assuming we stay with the same number of hulls and most pilots leave at 55 not 60 or 65.

You start at pay point 1 and go up one point each year.

When you get a command you transfer to the Capt structure at your current point.

Finally LH = 777 and 747

MH= 767 757 (Combined Fleet)

SH= 737 A320 A319 A321

and remember NO pension related to final salary any more..... you just put money into the scheme and you get what it is worth when you retire What you will get back is pure guesswork. You will alas be the fist of the poor pension BA pilots.

Hope this is of use

Or to put it more simply, about the same as a plumber in the SE of England. (And you don't have to work weekends)

As the retirement 'issue' is pertinent to the aspirations of anyone thinking of joining BA, it is probably fair to point out the following:

As I understand it, EU legislation will NOT mandate ANY retirement age at all! So the idea of a 5 year 'logjam' in career progression may prove rather optimistic!

There seem to be those that, due to greed, or a history of infidelity, seem determined to keep their snouts in the trough until their zimmer frame is no longer able to negotiate it's way into the flight deck bunk!

And my, how smug they are!

What do I hear for the oldest pilot in BA? 78...79...80? Older?

(I guess that may make the oldest co-pilot around 69 or 70!)

The very best of luck to anyone SERIOUSLY young enough to consider a 'career' with the World's Favourite!

WhoopWhoopWhoops

No, still not correct about the top pay scales in BA, yet more editing required!

It does seem a trifle odd that previously you didn't know how many years it takes to get to the top LH pay point in BA and now you can't get the salary correct, even though you say you are on it.

Care to hazard yet another attempt?

Regards

Bellerophon

MAXI101
Regardless of what you read in the papers if you think a plumber earns £127000PA Plus £10 for every hour worked ( lets say £400 week or another £19200 PA ) Plus say another £5000 for incidentals ( well,why not ) or put another way if you know of any plumbers getting £155000 Plus and retiring at age 55 please post the names here. ------

I cant believe these sums are correct,BA honestly pays an Airbus pilot in excess of 100K to flog around europe,if it isnt going bust please show me why:confused:

Well if it is wrong we all voted for it and BALPA gave us the wrong numbers.

Certainly my end is about right perhaps you could enlighten us all on any major errors.

Or is it that you would like to keep the numbers in house.

My view is that possible future BA pilots should know all the facts.

BA will certainly gloss over the undesireable aspects of employment with BA.

I understand the latest company offer for a pay rise this year is 1
percent because we wont play ball on altering NAPS to make its benefits worse.

Backs to the wall again.

WhoopWhoopWhoops

...Certainly my end is about right...

No, it isn't.

...perhaps you could enlighten us all on any major errors...

I already have, LH pp24, immediately obvious to anyone who is on it.

Take care with those FMS way-points. :D

Regards

Bellerophon

Well that´s me Ah, but the plumber doesn´t take 20 odd yrs to get the chance to earn 120K. Give me a decent starting salary any day. It would be interesting to know the average salary of a crew nowadays. I would hazard a guess that it would be around PP15? Bearing in mind the cost of living in the SE (where we are based) the first 10 yrs payscales don´t seem a lot of money do they?
That coupled with the fact I´ve been quoted 750 quid for a new shower leads me to think I made the wrong career choice 15 yrs ago.

MAXY101
My brothers a Plumber i ( In The SE ) and he makes about 50 - 60 K before tax and other expenses, thats for a 50 hour week ( including weekends ) and after 25 years of doing it,there may be a few plumbers earning higher but its not the average. either way its double what i will earn

Why does a pilot thats done 24 years get paid more than a new starter,do you become in some way BETTER or take on extra responsibility?

By the way my Brother has to fund his own pension as well and that doesnt pay out at 55.

As most of you guys afford huge flash houses, 750 quid sounds cheap for the type of shower you would need.

Well that s you

Why does a pilot thats done 24 years get paid more than a new starter,do you become in some way BETTER or take on extra responsibility?

Simply .... yes.

BTW the variable pay is not per hour worked but per hour flown.

Are you sure you are not quoting pensionable not gross as in the table.

Anyway dont keep us in suspense what is your number for pp 24

Well thats me, I also "fund" my own pension to the tune of nearly 1000 quid a month. I also think 750 quid is a lot of money!
Without wishing to disparage your brother, is 60K what he earns or what he declares?

I did say I'd keep out of this but I thought as a mod I should put 'www' out of his mysery and suggest you all stop teasing him, as he probably does not care a whiff about the detail of what he is earning:D

www - a 'typo' in line 3 row 2:eek: - that's all - EOEE (unless it has changed since I quit BALPA)

WhoopWhoopWhoops

...Are you sure you are not quoting pensionable not gross as in the table...

Yes.

...Anyway dont keep us in suspense what is your number for pp 24...

The same number that BALPA publish.

If you are who you imply you are, then you can either:
Go the BALPA BA site and look it up, or
Multiply your Total Regular Pay by twelve, or
Ask any co-pilot.Any of these will give you the right answer. Five attempts so far, and still wrong about the top BA pay in LH.

Greater attention to detail required! :D

Regards

Bellerophon

PS. OK, BOAC I'll stop now, it's getting boring!

OK I have sorted out the 2 typing errors thanks BOAC.

The pay table is now correct!

Whoopwhoop Whoops

Since you seem so keen to advertise to the World how much you earn. (All information available - more accurately - elsewhere!)

And since you introduced the issue of people feeling unable to retire at 55, thereby stifling the aspirations of 'new joiners':

I dare you to reveal how much a crystallised pension is worth!

As you so quaintly put it:

Purely "to enable candidates to make an informed choice about BA."

There is no point.

That option is not available to all NAPS members and only a pipe dream for new entrants so the information is of no value to prospective candidates.

But still of interest though...

The reason it is of interest to those for whom it would be "only a pipe dream," is because they may have to fly with people like you.

Their command will be delayed until you decide you can fit no more of the trough in your snout, and may reasonably ask, how it is you feel unable to survive on a pension, worth well in excess of £100,000 per year.

Perhaps that's why GSS manage to avoid paying market rate, since so many retirees seem unable to eak out a living.

As you say, for most, a pipe dream.

MAXY101
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote

"Well thats me, I also "fund" my own pension to the tune of nearly 1000 quid a month. I also think 750 quid is a lot of money!
Without wishing to disparage your brother, is 60K what he earns or what he declares?"







He doesnt work in London and 60K is what he makes,its 60% more than i do at BA but then he always reminds me i have sickness pay and holiday pay plus a pension to remember.

As to £1000 a month for your pension,i would happily pay that ( but i couldnt even think of affording a figure like that ) for 2/3 your pension at age 60 let alone 55.

Regards £750 for a shower,it depends what it is so best i not comment

If you are looking at joining – then please be aware that hand solo’s post is very accurate.

I’m ex Navy and charter – and since joining BA ( short haul) I have flown with some really nice guys. My net income is higher (despite a seat change) and rosters are far more stable. We have enjoyed some great trips on staff travel and I rarely fly at night.

However –On reflection, I wouldn’t recommend it. In fact I enjoyed life more a few years ago when I was at previous employers.

Shorthaul BA at LHR (at least on the airbus fleet) is not an agreeable rewarding place to work.

Why not?
Well it’s a huge activity – you will rarely fly with the same Captain – and almost never with cabin crew you have met before. It’s difficult to form relationships or friendships with folks. Please believe me, there are some huge ego’s here. “One upmanship” is the name of the game. A lot of the Captains take pleasure in pointing out errors or omissions. The atmosphere on the flight deck is rarely pleasant. I’m afraid just too many of the guys are “spoon fed” from uni – sponsored and sadly now cynical about BA. They are frequently pompous, patronising and have an unrealistic view of their own abilities. Pilots here, can be rude to despatchers, colleagues and cabin crew in a way I haven’t witnessed elsewhere. They have no idea what it’s like to work for anyone other than BA. The relationship between pilots and crew is very poor compared to previous employers. (Though to be fair this may be as much to do with the locked door post 911 policy) .Cabin crew are well cared for by the company and fly half as much as you will! I recently completed a 3 day 10 sector trip whilst our Helsinki stopping cabin crew did just one sector out, standover dayin HEL, then one sector back! The inefficiencies at BA have to be seen to be believed.
The training dep’t encompasses some clever even brilliant guys who have masses of experience, knowledge and ability (along with the usual arrogant and narcissistic rogues!) – but somehow the actual training outcomes are poor.
The company line is that BA is best and we are head and shoulders above other operators. It’s simply not true. I’ve witnessed some really shabby events on line and I’m not impressed. Simple procedures such as refuelling and tech log entries are made so bloody complicated that 95% of the guys do it wrong. SOP’s change frequently and company publications are ambiguous and difficult to follow.

BA’s fuel policy – or rather the dogmatic interpretation of it, causes a lot of stress on line. As an example, you frequently burn 500kg just getting out of LHR during the taxy phase ( only 100 to 200kg allowed on flight plan) and BA sometimes allow only 8 mins contingency on the return sector!
In addition to this, LHR means traffic jams in and out of work, long stressful arrivals where radio frequencies are over congested and arrival separation is rarely more than the min 2.5 miles.

Commuting and “life costs” around LHR are higher than elsewhere in the world! A modest but decent family home with garaging and within a civilized neighbourhood where you can have confidence in the schools costs £600K.

To sum up; I’d say there is more to life than money. BA pays reasonably well – but perhaps it’s arguable that it’s not worth the hassle. You are unlikely to be totally happy at BA. Most flights will be with total strangers. The typical day starts with continual moaning. (despite my diatribe above – I try to be really positive at work!).Cabin crew unions and their participants do there best to spoil the commercial success and the micro – “day to day” running and good nature of the cabin crew. Many pilots are looking for part time so they can spend more time with their families.

You might be happier (albeit poorer) elsewhere!

Hello all,

I can't help thinking that there are a lot of negative posts on here about life at BA. Sure, BA has its problems and its not perfect, like every other company, but it's not half as bad as its being made out on here! Here is my slant on things...

BA is great if you want to come to work, do your job, and go home. You have to accept that you are a number - one of 3200 or so. Like somebody has said, you are a almost a contract pilot who comes in, does his/her job, and goes home. To me, this is great! As long as you have a life outside work, what is the problem? I have a great life away from BA so this suits me fine.

Flying with someone else every day? Again, suits me fine. Lots of new people to meet. If you are moving to London to fly with BA and do not know anyone else in this part of the world, then sure, I can understand it could be a bit lonely.

Staff travel is great. Ok, if you want to go to Orlando in the school holidays, it ain't going to happen. But with a huge route network, you just need to be a bit flexible and get to know the system. I've been away 3 times this year on long haul hols, all on standby, and been upgraded each time through a cheeky little note to the flight crew. You cannot complain about paying £100 for a club seat to Cape Town.

Cabin crew have their own issues, but as long as you have half a personality and a sense of humour, you'll have a great time on night stops. Sure, there are nights when everyone is knackered and goes to bed, but equally, I've had some of the best nights out I've ever had in Naples, Glasgow, Madrid, etc.

Skippers are a great bunch of guys. At the end of the day, they are just cadets, ex-military guys, or self-improvers, who have been in the company longer and got their command. As long as you can have a bit of banter and hold a conversation, you'll love it. There are also some real characters. I can recall doing 3 day trips with guys where I haven't stopped laughing from check-in to check-out.

With regard to the issues of seniority and time to command, I think that has been discussed to death, so people can make their own judgements. BA does have its fair share of whingers, but these tend to be people who have done nothing else. I had a different career for 5 years before joining the cadet scheme, so I realise how great this job is every day. A bit of perspective is all that is required!

Hope this helps anyone thinking of applying.

Mary

Mary, good posting , - looks like you recommend it...I take it you are LGW?

Yeovil and Mary,

Thanks for the honest and straight forward posts.

Horses for courses, currently with have a life style with a large charter that is very rewarding, would be reluctant to give it up.

Many people chase false dawns, from sound companies. EK springs to mind.

Tandemrotor

Perhaps you would be good enough to substantiate your claim

...on a pension, worth well in excess of £100,000...

with data to show us just how you arrive at such a figure?


You seem to have a considerable chip on your shoulder about those pilots who may be able to stay on beyond the age of 55, due to recent European legislation.

...Their command will be delayed until you decide you can fit no more of the trough in your snout...

...how it is you feel unable to survive on a pension, worth well in excess of £100,000....

...There seem to be those that, due to greed, or a history of infidelity, seem determined to keep their snouts in the trough...

Their reasons for staying on, should they be able to do so and should they choose to do so, are no business of yours, and the reasons you repeatedly impute to those who might do so are frankly offensive. It is depressing to read a BA pilot writing about his colleagues in such a manner.

Pilots are under no obligation to retire just so that you can progress to the position you obviously feel you are entitled to, any more than you should have to give way to others below you on the seniority list, or they to those outside the airline waiting to get in.

Most of this group, which you appear to so despise, will have waited over 20 years for any command and been re-deployed to ground duties twice during this time. They are only too well aware what it feels like to wait for decades in the RHS, and understand how current co-pilots will feel about a further wait for their commands.

However, this change was not brought about at the request of some senior pilots (which I would neither have sought nor supported) but is a consequence of European legislation. As such, if legislative change now means that all pilots may stay on past 55, why do you feel that only senior pilots should be obliged to retire at 55?

Why should they not have exactly the same rights and options to stay on past 55 as those more junior to them will have? Or perhaps you think any pilot currently in BA should feel obliged to retire at 55?

True, it will undoubtedly be a windfall benefit for those who are very senior the day the rule changes, but either the rule changes for all or it changes for none.

At what point in the future, in your view, would it become morally acceptable for a pilot to stay on past 55?

Let me see if I can guess!

Regards

Bellerophon

Yeovil - excellent post, being part of what was once a well motivated and happy Regional Airline (Manx / BRAL) and is now unfortunate enough to be called BA Citiexpress, may I totally agree with your assessment of the BA culture.

Whilst there ARE some decent guys around in BA, most are exactly as you describe. Our SOPs change on a seemingly daily basis, the extent of the sheer arrogance of the BA guys at all leveles is only matched by the levels of losses that their management has achieved for us. The BA mainline pilots is fairly average - by and large pretty similar to any other group of pilots, yet their misconception that they really ARE the world's best is breathtakingly misplaced. The incidents we have had........

Tandem Rotor, I have to say that was an intriguing post. Maybe it will help though, because your view of your elder and more senior colleagues is pretty much how we non-mainline guys view our secondees - now you may be able to understand a little more, and hopefully thus post a little less.

Fat chance! :rolleyes:

I know it's been said, quoted and rewritten...... however, well said Yeovil.


I am sure, somewhere out there, there really ARE some BA pilots who might just have struggled through military flying training - but nothing like as many as they would like to think. What they might have learned, however, is that considering yourself to be special just because you have passed a Hamble or Prestwick spoonfeeding course is really not very special at all.

To those of us who have been awarded a pair of proper wings, (Gold on your sleeve being best, of course), by HM instructors whose continued employment contract does not depend on the pass ratio and profit factor etc etc, a little pat on the back - we really don't NEED to continually tell everyone how special we are; listening to and watching the standard BA product in action makes us doubly aware of it!
:ok:

Fly Navy, Dig Army, Eat Crabs.......:D

we really don't NEED to continually tell everyone how special we are;

Then why do you??

Bellerophon

I most certainly CAN substantiate my claim that crystallised pensions can, and do, pay out well in excess of £100,000 per year. So could you if you cared to look.

For your information, I have already "progressed" as far as I am likely to, and no change in legislation is likely to affect my personal aspirations. I have NO vested interest, if that is what you were implying by your cheap comment -

"At what point in the future, in your view, would it become morally acceptable for a pilot to stay on past 55?"

I should imagine the answer would be: Everyone should expect to retire at the age stated on their contract WHEN THEY JOINED.

Is that somehow unfair?

It would seem from previous comments, that I am not the only one struck by the smug attitude of those who seek to keep their 'snouts in the trough' as long as possible, whilst having no concern whatever for new joiners. Required to join on vastly inferior pension terms to those enjoyed by the selfish, but oh so vocal MINORITY!

And you think MY comments are depressing!!

I would have thought a more united stand on ALL pension issues would be far more beneficial than that adopted by the self interested 'troughers!'

Not to mention, far more edifying for people outside BA to read!

What do you say?

Cornflake and Kurz;

I am intrigued that you are so interested in a thread entitled:

"BA recruiting - DIRECT ENTRY PILOT SCHEME"

Oh well, since BA pilots are "fairly average", and you have "watched the product in action", I know you will sail through the interview process, and find yourselves in a 747/777/320 in no time.

Enjoy

Just remember, there are some of those 'arrogant' BA pilots who don't want to see you (or anybody else) join on what is effectively a 'B' payscale!

It occurs to me that you must both be training captains on the RJ. Not that I disagree with your assessment of mainline pilots. I don't! I just can't understand how else you would be qualified to comment on their standard!

and Kurtz; "post a little less" - Why should I?

5415N.

Speaking as an Air Force product, I see exactly where Yeovil, Kurtz and Cornflakes are coming from. It is very tedious to listen to inaccurate BA agitprop, day after day. Wouldn't be so bad if it were half true, however, this is not a thread about the clear water of any colour between properly trained professional pilots.....and the rest. Nor about the attitude displayed by a minority of BA people.
However, .....

TandemRotor,

I agree with my colleague, a period of silence would be in order - is it only snouts of your own size which are to be enabled into the trough? (TRM - trough resource management eh?) You are loud enough when defending your own perceived 'rights', maybe you should work out this latest change has been sought by no-one in the industry, just something else imposed by our political masters - just like you lot were imposed on us here in BACX!!!!!!!
Get the drift mateyboy??

If you were really interested in "united stands" possibly you and your overpaid colleagues in BA might have been a bit more supportive of the idea of BACX joining your common seniority list.

Like many others of my background, I was not remotely interested in joining BA, but BA seemed to want my airline. Now I'm here, I feel for all my colleagues who DO want to join mainline (their choice) and I abhor the self-serving behaviour of BA who are more interested in preserving internecine scope clauses for their own narrow self interest and depth of trough rather than trying to genuinely expand opportunity for all. Now you see an internal group in potential benefit competition - well, just look at you. The only surprise is that I'm surprised. Manchester or Birmingham you greedy little tosser?

TandemRotor = typical BA line pilot = :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

PoodleVelour ,

As a BA pilot I do accept your point concerning some of my fellow pilots in BA , quite true in fact . However I thought that this thread was meant to be fairly subjective about the reasons for joining or not joining BA . Therefore when I see To those of us who have been awarded a pair of proper wings, (Gold on your sleeve being best, of course), by HM instructors whose continued employment contract does not depend on the pass ratio and profit factor etc etc, a little pat on the back

I do get a little annoyed . Is this an insult against any non military pilot who has worked his way up the hard way , been tested and passed by non military instructors etc to find himself working for BA ? Should he feel "not worthy " because he has never had the pleasure of a military instructors . I fly with many people , of both types and there are good , bad and indifferent on both sides .

Personnally I just do it the old way and treat each pilot as he comes and how he does the job , without a monkeys about his background .

Old Fashioned I know , but hey it works


regards

And I think you have every right to be annoyed if you fall into the group which is inferred to be inferior by virtue of having no military flight training.
Quite understandable.

However, I think this sub-point, as first mentioned by Yeovil and expanded by Cornflake and Kurtz is one which is seldom made in comparison to the attitude shown by a large number (albeit a smaller proportion of the total) of BA pilots who genuinely believe that the BA product is the best in the world and that all other crew members need educating about this.

The number of times this comes over as compared to the mil / civ training variables and qualities is astronomical, and more than a little irritating - particularly, when as is often the case, the loudest noise is made by 'sounding brass' without the skills to back up the headlines.

Glad to see you're old fashioned too, if only all your colleagues behaved in a similar fashion.

God almighty what a pointless pi55ing contest this thread has turned into. Military vs civvie? What a load of arse! I've flown with ex-mil skippers who fly flawlessly and some who can't hold straight and level in a fly-by-wire aircraft with a flight path vector to aid them. Broadly similar for the civvies.

Kurtz

Whilst there ARE some decent guys around in BA, most are exactly as you describe. Our SOPs change on a seemingly daily basis, the extent of the sheer arrogance of the BA guys at all leveles is only matched by the levels of losses that their management has achieved for us

So, your experience is based upon two, maybe three BA managers, and around 80 secondees, which make up about 2.5% of the BA pilot workforce, yet somehow you think you're qualified to comment on the workforce as a whole? Do me a favour. As for the 'incidents we've had', do I correctly recall a thread on here over a year ago regarding a series of tailstrikes on the RJ, all of which were flown by BACX crews? Don't go throwing stones when you live in a very fragile glass house. And just to remind you (and other readers) on the nature of the secondments, the regional bases, routes, aircraft and jobs were BA's, not BACX's. You're lucky to have any of those positions because they should all still be in BA (where they made a profit). If you weren't gifted those positions there'd be 120 of you on the dole right now.

Yeovil

How long have you been in because you seem to have had a run of bad luck.

“One upmanship” is the name of the game. A lot of the Captains take pleasure in pointing out errors or omissions. The atmosphere on the flight deck is rarely pleasant. I’m afraid just too many of the guys are “spoon fed” from uni – sponsored and sadly now cynical about BA. They are frequently pompous, patronising and have an unrealistic view of their own abilities. Pilots here, can be rude to despatchers, colleagues and cabin crew in a way I haven’t witnessed elsewhere. They have no idea what it’s like to work for anyone other than BA.

Can't say I've experienced much one-upmanship apart from a handful of eccentric Captains. Indeed rather than being the "spoon-fed" the worst cases are from the ex-mil types who've spent 10+ years in a jumbo before coming over for a late short haul command. Not to say they're all like that, many of them are excellent. Nor have I ever witnessed a Captain being rude to despatchers, colleagues or cabin crew Curt under pressure perhaps, rude no.

Finally I trust you follow in the fine tradition of the ex-Navy flyers in BA whom I've generally found a pleasure to fly with, but I can tell you that nothing seems to pi55 a civvie Captain off than a co-pilot who insists on telling him how much better the forces and their previous command were.

Poodle:

Remember, our jobs, our bases. The scope clause keeps your grubby little hands off any more of them. We offered you mainline seniority for the RJ pilots, you turned it down.

I think it has said before, but one can always rely on Mr. Solo to drag down, obfuscate and distort the facts sufficiently to make one anticipate euthanasia with pleasure.

You really should be a politician Hand old chap, because your ability to repeat enough erroneous and distorted facts until some of them are finally believed is admirable (objectively anyway). You even convince yourself. You are consistently unable to appreciate any data supporting a conclusion you dislike, and entirely incapable of seeing the veritas in anything which might disadvantage yourself or your cosy clicque of blinkered, self-serving, arrogant, pompous mainliners.

To be frank, it is the attitude of you and yours which makes BA the subject of crewroom incredulity around the world. I don't expect you to change your views, I just thank God almighty I left BACX when I did, and no longer have to listen to mainline cabin or flight deck crew whinging and wittering about money, contracts, overtime (can we taxy in more slowly please....) I never believed THAT one till we were bought by BA and had to work with your colleagues.....yes, yes, yes, I KNOW people are lining up to try and get into BA...their choice. For every one Yeovil etc on here, I wonder how many people there are out there whose dislike for their job is only exceeded by their dislike and outright contempt for the likes of you!:=

Hi Hand,
Unlike others here, I rarely disagee with your posts - and think you offer a fair and reasonable view on many topics.
However - this time if you think BA comprises of a fabulous happy nice bunch of guys - and well worth joining as a a DEP - then you are totally mistaken.!!!

I really hadn’t intended to cause the sort of mil versus cadet conflict that followed my post. I think it was the posts that followed mine were inflammatory and disagreeable.

I must say - I'm glad you posted those few lines again (in your last post ) Starting; One upmanship is the name of the game ........... Because that really sums BA up.

I guess I was just trying to describe the atmosphere at BA for those who might join from other pastures. I don’t think it’s a happy outfit (well not least the Airbus fleet!). I was trying to be as accurate as I could.


Reading my post again, I can’t see anywhere, that I said “ex mil formed better crews than ex BA sponsored cadets”. In fact some of the most “able” and “respected“ of the Airbus training dept’s are ex cadets – ability and technique far exceed any of the ex Navy/Air Force/Army guys. I must also say that the dozen or so biggest and most obnoxious pratts are all ex mil! ( I perhaps omitted this from my post – and apologise for that!)



I had proposed though, that many of the unhappy guys I fly with were BA sponsored (typically between six and twenty five years ago). They seem clueless about the real world and have a downright nasty view of the outside world. They are the type of guys who might miss a couple of radio calls from ATC (we have all done it!) and never apologise!

For some reason, they think they are better than pilots who work at My Travel Ryanair Citiexpress etc . I haven’t figured out why.



Hand; if you enjoy flying with guys on the Airbus fleet – that’s great. (I must try changing my selection of lines because I’m ending up with trips with some complete idiots!). I’m frequently finding lots of issues to disagree over. (fuel being one !). I'll say it again - standards here are definitely poorer than elsewhere. I've witnessed more unsafe events at BA than at any other employer.

So to sum up – if you are thinking of joining please take note – there is a lengthy (15 year??) wait for command ( stated elsewhere !) and in my opinion it’s not generally recognised as a happy place to work. (if Hand is an ex Cadet then don’t forget he has nothing else to compare it too!)

This is a very weird thread. Yeovil, I don't think you know what you are talking about. Good luck in your new career with whoever is next!

I’m frequently finding lots of issues to disagree over. (fuel being one !). Interesting. In my 7-8 years in BA, I can't say I've ever "disagreed" with either my P1 or P2 over fuel. We might have a (usually slight) difference of opinion at first, but a short discussion usually results a quantity which both of us are happy with (and usually will be the higher of the first 2 ideas!)...

Which other areas do you "disagree" with your colleague on ??

NoD

Someone said - "It's a weird thread "... well I agree - and with so many differing opionions of the merits or otherwise of joining as a DEP then it'll be easy for candidates to draw their own conclusions from the conflicts described above.

Any candidate who uses any of the above to 'draw their own conclusions' needs their head seeing to.

I have honestly never read so much cr@<hidden> in all my life!

Do your own research, but please do not base your decision on the anonymous postings from the likes of Yoevil (who has the sum total of two posts to his name), and 2 or 3 other contributors. Even if they do work for the company they are simply not representative of the other 3250 pilots who work for BA, many of whom joined as DEP's from charters, turboprop's etc. and are very happy.

Jeez, all we need now is a discussion about the merits or otherwise of the 'monitiored approach', and this thread will be complete.:ugh:

Notso fantastic; you said …I don't think you know what you are talking about….
Well– can you be more specific? What is it you disagree with ?

Super stall – yeah I’m new here, but they are still valid opinions of life as a DEP in BA . I can’t see what it is you don’t like ? Can you tell us ?

I didn’t say I wasn’t happy – just that when you factor in life in the South East, the joy of LHR and then compare it to other employers, BA isn’t something I’d recommend!
I just wouldn’t like to see guys draw conclusions from people posting stuff on pprune who have not actually flown for other airlines. Simple isn’t it?

Please tell me why I shouldn’t state that?
Your post too is anonymous isn’t it?

Can we please get back to the things that matter to prospective pilots interested in joining BA.

Salary and promotion prospects I dealt with earlier , people can believe it or not but it was fact.

Perhaps someone could enlighten us about the new pension scheme for new entrants now that NAPS has been scrapped.

What is a BA pilot likely to retire on in the future on this contributary only scheme? It does not seem good to me.

I think this would be of more interest to them than the rubbish that is being put on this thread at the moment alas.

Www

What is a BA pilot likely to retire on in the future on this contributary only scheme? It does not seem good to me It is an academic, irrelevant question I'm afaird.

If you wish to assess MPS schemes between companies, only 1 thing matters - the E'er contribution rate, and potentially the required E'ee rate to get that. Thereafter it's down to the markets / investment regime / latest Govt ideas / Annuity rates, all unknowns but common to all MPSs.

NoD

Wow!

Never seen such a lot of bickering amoungst what would usually probably be a bunch of well educated fairly well balanced people.

One person has said it exactly right....

You should ALL be politicians!!!

Surely it's simple.....

You want a job and you've got the lot.....apply.

If your happy where you are, like the dole queue, or your job not in flying.....don't apply.

However......

Last thing we need in BA is any more people who DON'T want to work for BA. We need people who are in it 100% and wanting it to succeed for everyone.

Those not having THAT qualification need not apply.

:(

Evening everybody,

I work for Air France and have no intention whatsoever to apply to BA. But, please, would anyone explain something? From reading the posts, I understand that you can join BA and become, let say, a 747-400 f/o straight away. Am I right? If so, don't BA pilots already in the place have a say about it? It wouldn't be possible with AF. That is why I am a bit puzzled. If you join AF you start as a f/o on A320 as well as at the bottom of the seniority list. The reason for that is that you are paid more on a 747 than a A320. Is it not the case with BA?

Luc

Ba has a seniority based pay structure it is not type related.

I have listed the pay on about page 8 of this thread take a look.

There is a difference in pay between between long haul(747and 777),medium haul(767and757), and short haul (737andA319,320,321).

As you will see from the scales it is not a large amount .

All pilots start at the bottom of the scale and go up one step at a time once a year,the top step is at 24years in BA.

When you become a captain you change scales at the step point you are at when you get 4 rings.

It is therefore possible to allow a few direct entry copilots to go on the 777 or 747.

BALPA would not be in favour of a large number of new recruits going on the 777 or 747 but as far as I know there is no agreement which prevents BA from doing so, a guess might might be a max of 20 of the 120 places available at the moment, being acceptable to the BA pilot force /BALPA .

Howerver if all 120 went on the 747 or 777 I think the pressure on the Union to say No would be great.

I say total 120 because it was in BA NEWS on friday as the number BA was looking for at the present time.

Hope this answers your question.

"BALPA would not allow a large number, a guess might might be a max of 20 of the 120 places available at the moment.'

BALPA have no say in where new entrants are posted. BA has every right to post DEPs to whichever fleet they want and BALPA recognise this.
This has caused unhappiness in the past as LGW SH (and LHR SH for that matter) have seen new entrants go straight to LH.

When it comes to bidding for a different seat / fleet everyone's seniority is based on Date of Joining (and not being frozen etc) so they are at no advantage there.

Can't belive I'm contributing to this thread - as always it's full of non-BA people proclaiming they know how BA works.

Only a small proportion of BA guys admittedly, however the discord, rudeness, contradiction etc DO show what sort of an outfit we are.

If luc is still around, be interesting to know if AF is as divided and rancorous.

See Jet A1 going up again, and BA now starting a ticket surcharge to cover it - here we go again.....:\

I don't belieeeeeeeeve it.

Go to the interview, get passed it, have a look at the contract (which will mention pensions and everything else) if you don't like it, don't sign it and go and work for Emirates or someone else. Get a grip !

Now Super Stall about this monitiored approach....... only joking

When you become a captain you change scales at the step point you are at when you get 4 rings

Minor correction to www - this is not so at LGW. You go to the bottom of the seniority ladder there on command.

I still get confused at the way the non-handling landing pilot can become the handling AND the landing pilot early just by saying VISUAL - it seems to short-circuit the handling non-landing pilot's job, because he goes straight to becoming the non-handling non landing pilot who will now NOT fly a missed approach - even though he makes the same challenges, but for some reason now receives no response.

The other query relates to the balked landing where the handling go-round pilot becomes the non-handling pilot as P2 even though he should be PF for that manoeuvre.

Maybe I'll get it right eventually, particularly if I can get all these BA secondees to stop talking about how much better pilots they are than the rest of us.......particularly our ex-military guys......:8

"Minor correction to www - this is not so at LGW. You go to the bottom of the seniority ladder there on command."

How did you work that one out BOAC? That's not the way it works. Can you expand / explain?

Well, QN, cannot say I am over interested in this, but unless it has changed since it happened to me and all the other ex Dans obtaining command, we went initially to pay-point 1 on the Captain's scale, and then when BA/BALPA found no-one was bidding out of LHR to LGW for command they raised the bottom pay-scale to 5, still putting us below our 'correct' seniority. Feel free to correct this if it has changed. I suspect it has not been 'noticed' as all bidders into LGW are so junior?

Anyway, I'm out of there:D

Obviously things were handled differently for ex-Dan guys. For anyone transfering over from LHR, or gaining their command at LGW, things have always been as I described.
I think people, how ever junior would have 'noticed' being put on PP1.

People with spurious agendas are forever trying to slate LGW, it gets a bit boring after a while.

As you say - you're out if there (enjoy it:ok: ), and I'm outta here 'cos I don't like perpetuating this type of thread.

Tandemrotor

…So could you if you cared to look...

I assure you I’ve looked very hard.

I have my own benefit statement from the pension fund in front of me as I write this, showing I crystallised as a line captain, aged 50, on the top pay point, after 29 years service. The projected pension is well under six figures.

…I most certainly CAN substantiate my claim that crystallised pensions can, and do, pay out well in excess of £100,000 per year…

So you say.

I challenge you, once again, produce your figures to show how you arrive at this figure of well in excess of £100,000 per year or have the decency to admit you are wrong and withdraw your exaggerated claim.

…Everyone should expect to retire at the age stated on their contract WHEN THEY JOINED…Is that somehow unfair?…

There have been many changes made to the contract I signed in the 1970s, some to my benefit, many not. I am obliged to accept them all, whether or not I approve of them.

By your logic, I should not avail myself of paternity leave, I should instruct my widow not to apply for the increased death-in-service benefits, and I should always wear a suit and tie whilst on staff travel; all changes that have come about since I signed my contract.

It is highly unrealistic to expect that a law, which comes into effect in two years time, should not be taken advantage of by any pilot who joined BA before 2006.

It is highly unrealistic to expect the entire, current pilot workforce to retire at 55 when entitled to remain to 60 or beyond.

This particular change will apply to all pilots equally, and I see no reason why each pilot should not be able to make an individual decision on this matter, without being subjected to your petty abuse.

…It would seem from previous comments, that I am not the only one struck by the smug attitude of those who seek to keep their 'snouts in the trough' as long as possible, whilst having no concern whatever for new joiners…

You deliberately seek to mix two separate issues, those of retirement age and new entrant pensions, and ascribe views to me which I have not expressed and do not espouse.

The issue of inferior pension terms for new entrant pilots is of considerable concern to me, as it is to most of my age group. When BALPA take a view on the best course of action to try to secure a FSS pension for my new colleagues, they will have my full support.

Your attempts to suggest otherwise are frankly beneath contempt.

I have, in my time in BA, stood on a picket line and watched several pilots cross it to go to work. It was sadly true that most of those who did were the very ones who had shouted the loudest beforehand about the need for action.

I trust, should the need for action arise, that you won’t fall into this category.

Regards

Bellerophon

It's nice to see someone posting something factual and sensible on this thread.
Congrats Bellerophon, a pleasure reading your measured postings. A pity there are not more of the sane and sensible majority of BA pilots who actually do post on here, the Hand Solos and Tandem Rotors give a biased, delinquent, rabble-rousing and deliberately contentious impression of what BA pilots are like.
Great to see someone who can parse in a grammatically correct fashion too, and can also separate out the rubbish when the usual attempts are made to blur the truth.
Mind you, I suppose a rumour forum invites abuse, nonetheless, thanks.
I vote this thread to be locked henceforth.

Captain Jumbo

Evening,
About the arguing and so on between pilots, do not worry it is exactly the same in Air France (We have 5 different pilot's unions!!!). Being new on this forum, it actually strikes me how similar the issues are.
About the particular point of direct entry though, from what you said, we (AF pilots) seem more "protected" as no one can jump the queue ( all secured by the unions)! Having said that it might simply be because it makes a hell of a difference as we are paid on a weight-speed basis ( means that the faster and the heavier the plane is the more you are paid).No need to say that people love the 747-400 and are lookig forward to the A380!

My own experience...

Based on the 737 LGW-I mainly just go to work, fly to the SOP's (which as Hand S says do change) and go home again. When things get fun (=difficult) then you just have to make the best of it between the two of you. It ain't difficult in BA, I imagine that things could get harder in other carriers out there!

Right to left seat changes mean (in my case anyhow) that you will stay on the same pay point, and move onto the Capt scale.

I like my job. I am looking forward to flying with the new DEP's (if I move onto the bus...) They WILL have my support when it comes to final salary pension.

'They WILL have my support when it comes to final salary pension.'

That's the only attractive thing left about BA, lets hope you keep it or some thing close to it.

I have to agree with a lot of what Yeovil said.

I am a 4 year DEP on the airbus/LHR, I've worked for other airlines before BA and its not all its craked out to be ...

Think very carefully before jumping ship ..... if you are say 35 joining BA on current figures its unlikley you will ever see ANY command. You will be around 3500, LHR shorthaul commands start around 1700 and gatwick 2000. Thats at least 1500 pilots to leave ahead of you, and with 5 years of no movement about to start due retirement to change to 60 it will be very sole destroying.

Another major issue in BA is that seniority doesn't only effect commands, BUT dictates your lifestyle. You WILL work every weekend being junior, you WILL do all the naff trips, you WILL work more days per month than more senior colleauges etc ...

Think VERY VERY VERY carefully WHY you might be leaving a smaller outfit to come to 'dinosaur BA'.

The SOP's issues are another topic in themselves ! But you get used to anything eventually, but it does hurt to know just how simple SOP's can be with other airlines, sadly many in BA have never seen anything else and think the SOPs are normal ... why, oh why does the non handling pilot operate the reversers ? If can be compicated BA will do it that way !!!

noblues, would you leave?
Who did you work for before, and, given the chance again, would you have joined BA?

Airbus Girl ---->

would you leave? NO not in my position, having joined in my mid 30's 4 years ago I am not badly placed as a short haul FO re. seniority (about 2/3rd up on the airbus list), so get my choice of work and days off etc .... although that will change if I go say 777 or 747 ....



given the chance again, would you have joined BA? Uuuhhhmm !!!! I could have been a Capt. for the last 3 years with my previous employer .... its a difficult question to answer and one I often ask myself ! (even after 4 years with BA).
In short ... I miss a smaller company with 'simple SOP's' where the word 'airmanship' meant a lot (not FCO's Flight Crew Orders in BA where airmanship is almost a dirty word ) .... BUT, BA does offer stability, good pay, stable roster (bliss!),retire at 55 with a good pension (not the case for new joiners), lots of types to fly, huge route structure, very strong BALPA council .... so in short I wouldn't leave BUT do have friends who have been in BA and now gone to say Easy for commands after only a few years .....

To have joined BA 6-8 years ago mid 30's would have been great, you would see a shorthaul command very quickly and the carrot of a 777 or 744 command would be within reach before you retire .... but all that is not the case now .... the retirement bulge is over, the retirement age will be pushed to 60 (causing a 5 year stagnation period), BA has closed all the regional bases for early commands (even LGW has become very senior due recent pay deal); if your <30 then YES join its worth it (but only with a final salary pension) .... at the end of the day BA doesn't bond on types so you can always throw in the towel and go pastures new .... but >say 30 think carefully about seniority with view lifestyle and very long term command prospects ....

I think noblues has hit the nail on the head. If you have time on your side, BA is still a good company to fly for. ( But maybe not to work for) On the aviation side, the flying, routes, fellow pilots are great), but the rest of the bullshit is rapidly tipping the balance for a lot of us....

I have read through all 13 pages so far and some of the postings are quite emotive. So if you are still here (must be about 14 by now) then I have some less inflammatory comments.

Firstly, whether or not you apply to BA is dependent on your current circumstances. You have to appreciate that a career in BA is entirely due to your seniority. This is affected by the demographics of the pilot workforce at the time you join, and the age at which you started.

The younger you are when you start then the better your career. By the time you are 35 then (assuming you are established elsewhere), it would be a less attractive proposition. With the current situation in BA (no further expansion, retirement at 55, and few leavers), then those 35 and over are not going to get a long haul command, although a short haul one is likely. Those over thirty might get a long haul command, eventually, those under 30 will, and those under 25 will do very nicely.

The biggest benefit BA can offer is the final salary pension scheme, it is very good, but is no longer available to new starts. So if you are considering joining then please make additional pension plans.

A lot of the comments made in other postings are perfectly valid. It just depends on your background and expectations.

BA does not recruit the "best" pilots, but the "best fit" for the organisation. The SOP's and FCO's are written so that the worst pilot in the organisation can operate safely. You do not have to be ace of the base, average is more likely to get you a job.

More important is your ability to fit into the BA culture (and it is very distinct). You have to be primarily a conformist who will apply the SOP's and FCO's rigidly, and be able to enforce these standards in yourself and others. Naked ambition will not help, you have to appreciate you will be doing a dull, repetitive job, without the chance for promotion, for a very long time. Stoicism and patience are handy virtues to have.

"Characters" need not apply as they seek "stable" personalities, anyone familiar with the work of Myers-Briggs will understand the personality profile required.

Your expectations of the company will also colour your subsequent impressions. Do not expect nirvana, it is a company like any other, with many problems. The glossy brochures and adverts are just marketing speak. The reality is very different.

Standards at BA are no different to those in the majority of UK owned/operated airlines.

Some people have a very good life, others less so, again, it is primarily down to your position in the seniority list. The further up it you go the more money, less work, more control, better standard of living you will have. How long it takes and your attitude will decide your outlook.

My suggestion is that you think carefully, research the company, speak to more than one BA pilot, and apply if its what you want.

Worst case, you get in, get a free rating (no bonding either), then take your qualifications elsewhere. Just don't give up a good position with an existing employer and expect overnight success within BA.

Its a long seniority list full of relatively young people. Nothing ventured , nothing gained.

Harry :cool:

I read today that in the U.S. they are gearing up to let UAVs fly in CAS under IFR. For all the chat about the future regarding seniority and retirements, I think the pressing problem in 10-15 years time will be whether the airlines will move towards non-piloted airliners controlled by ATC ground controllers. It has economic/security/benefits and it will obviously require education of pax to accept it.
The technology to do this is here today and I believe that after 2030ish that professional pilots will become extinct. Make the most of it while you still can.

Excellent post Harry.

1) Pilotless Planes would be more expensive to operate than hiring a couple of pilots.

2) Someone still has to sit and control these aircraft

3) No current or planned airliner is capable of being converted to pilotless operations without punatitive conversion and certification costs.

4) Its a terrorists wet dream.

5) A large EMP event would render all airborne airliners uncontrollable (range 350nm radius of - say - Paris) and such capability will be in non-state hands within 20 years.

Cheers


WWW

I'd like to join BA. So all of you who are currently there and have nothing better to do than slag off your company, please leave and let me, and many others, have your jobs.

Unfortunately, thanks to the likes of Ryan and Easy, being a pilot is far less glamorous than it used to be with crappy rosters, an unstable lifestyle, long hours etc etc etc. If you are really fed up with it, go get a job driving a train on the underground. You'll earn far more there, have a better lifetsyle, and will appreciate the sun a lot more after a day in darkness.

For those of us who are now resigned to the fact that we're going to have a career of long hours, nights/days away from home, and all the other cr*p that comes with the job, I know there are still plenty of us who would like to accept the cr*p that a job with BA will bring.

Please don't complain too much about your job - I'd give pretty much anything to have a nice uniform and fly for a company that is well respected by passengers and other companies world-wide.

Actually er82

I wonder if you can see the irony in your post?

BA command time can be a matter of luck and timing. Fleets and bases may be unpopular and then there is a change, usually for financial reasons when there is restructuring.
EOG was like this for a while: command time could be as little as a year from joining BA. Those who wanted an early command went for it and are probably very glad they did, now that there is a much longer wait.
So, if you are thinking of joining as a DEP from another airline, go for it! First officers get treated much better than in many other outfits, that's for sure. Things like being able to taxi the aeroplane, and a complete reversal of roles when it is your leg. You are also treated like a sentient being, instead of a rather thick dog, as happens outside BA (not in all airlines, but certainly in some). Everything is fair, too. No Mr Nastys in the sim making up silly scenarios or putting the pressure on just for the fun of it. BA's training is second to none.
Good luck!

:ok:

"BA's training is second to none"

Bit pompous? BA has a good training department with excellent facilities is more like the answer - just like many other large carriers around the world!

I guess wheelbarrow hasn't had to endure BAs A320 groundschool then. The quality of that is about the only thing we all agree on on the schoolbus.

It appears that BA's A320 sim training for DEPs will now start in January 2005 ---very large amount of training (sim & line)scheduled for first 3 months of 2005.
All subject to change of course!

No Mr Nastys in the sim making up silly scenarios or putting the pressure on just for the fun of it. BA's training is second to none.

erm, not too sure about this one!

Preepy

might have changed already! Airbus now not going to LGW 737-500s staying a while longer, meanwhile 319 hulls being given back to airbus as 321s arrive!

2 days is a long time in BA

Still as they say that was todays plan

Advice for those who join us........

Firstly, welcome!

Secondly, when it's your sector, the PICUS is really PICUS, but please, please, remember that that is an opportunity to exhibit good CRM, too. Not an exercise in territorial pissing. If I listen to another 'older than me' DEP make some unilateral decision before my aghast jaw hits the floor, I'll start to get a reputation for being grumpy. There are a small minority of hard jawed ex-mil oldies who really get uptight that they're sitting next to a younger, more senior oik and their poor team skills attest to that.
My opinions are not propoganda or prejudice, I have now had the honour of flying with every ex-mil DEP on my fleet and nearly half are letting their jealousies affect the opinion others have of them.

You may ask "Perhaps Capt CEP is the sort that attracts such behaviour?"
I respond.
All my friends who are also Capts on the fleet feel the same.
All (bar one) of the co-pilots who do not have a military background do not act this way. Why's that?

Finally, If you do join, regardless of background, after the age of 35, you will end up an embittered whinger just like the rest of those who had too many years when they joined. Trust me. You will.

Well what a barrel of laughs it looks like working for Birdseed these days - Not.

One wonders just who is applying to join them at the moment? Are they all folks worried about the future of their current employer e.g. MyTravel?

If so its quite something that in just a few years the airline of choice has become the airline of sinking ship jumpers. I suspect the wheel may turn once again - IF management can sort things out and sack half of themselves.

Here's hoping.

Abeam...............don't you mean Birdsh*t?

Wheel barrow wrote ;
First officers get treated much better than in many other outfits, that's for sure. Things like being able to taxi the aeroplane, and a complete reversal of roles when it is your leg. You are also treated like a sentient being, instead of a rather thick dog, as happens outside BA (not in all airlines, but certainly in some). Everything is fair, too. No Mr Nastys in the sim making up silly scenarios or putting the pressure on just for the fun of it. BA's training is second to none.

This, I'm sad to say is complete bollox.

Even the fleet (LH) newsletter recently said " Beware pilots with two stripes .. they will screw you up" How dare they treat F/O's in that way .
Typical pompous patronising arrogant " head up arse" BA.

For prospective applicants ; you will wear two stripes for 4 years ( even if you have just given up an airbus or 75 command with Midland / Airtours etc . ) You will , sadly, be treated like a freaking boy scout .

Shuttleworth is bang on the money.

Capt Cadet Entry.

The name says it all.

What absolute twaddle. If only you were a tenth as talented as those you choose to berate you'd be doing very well indeed.

LF

Damn, can't resist biting:eek: ....

I read the previos post and one name sprang straight to mind, and it was from His Holiness, LF none the less.

We are honoured by His presence.

And there was me thinking that the most dangerous thing in aviation is the pompous pr@<hidden> who thinks He is God's gift!

I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.
I must not take the bait.

:E

BACX

whats the matter mate. Green eyed about working for a shitty little airline? Birdshit we may be but give me that over the pile of crap you work for any day.

LF You are everything we hate about ex forces pilots. People think you're a wind up merchant. I don't. I've met them.

NN

Yes and you're everything I've come to expect from a civilian trained oik.

LF

NN

The green eye quote may, or may not be correct. However the rest of your post is completely unneccessary! (Not to mention inaccurate!)

CAT lounge not suiting you?

lord FH

what a laugh!!!


your profile really did make me howl!! three stripe captain!!!

met them and most are merchant bankers!!

you are no more RAF than a CSD.

overpaid with attitude!! :-)

I still love you Flashy.:rolleyes:

Interesting thread.

I was originally attracted to the prospect of BA, believing that arguably the best salaries & T&C, plus the prestige and all the other benefits (pension aside) made an attractive package in comparison. I am willing to accept that all companies have their downsides and problems, and that you will always have a few w@<hidden> to put up with wherever you work.

However, having read through this thread, I would now definitely NOT join BA. Not because the 'negative' posters have won the argument, but because the argument exists, and the fashion in which it has been conducted is diabolical. I have never seen such a bunch of squabbling, bitching old women working for the same company - if this thread is anything to go by, the atmosphere at BA right now must be absolutely toxic.

Is the attitude to ex-mil pilots as expressed in here prevalent throughout your company? If so, another reason not to join. The simple fact is, Mil pilots (of whatever flavour) are trained and held to much, much higher standards than civ trained pilots - when we join an airline, we have generally spent 10-15yrs minimum, usually with 7-12 yrs of that in command, doing things with aircraft that a civ trained pilot could only dream of. It's only the money that attracts us, in the main. I expected that at least an ex-mil pilots sheer bredth of flying experience would earn them some respect (we've all done routes, LH, SH, MH, everything in between, day, night, good wx, sh1te wx, weeks / months away from home; plus a whole lot more that a civ trained pilot would never get to do) - perhaps i'm just naive.

I must say that, despite the absence of T&Cs, long dets in the desert, sh1te pay, no unions to fight your corner, and getting shot at, staying in the Military looks quite an attractive prospect after reading this thread.

For those who DO choose this company, best of luck. (meant with sincerity)

16B

, Mil pilots (of whatever flavour) are trained and held to much, much higher standards than civ trained pilots - when we join an airline, we have generally spent 10-15yrs minimum, usually with 7-12 yrs of that in command, doing things with aircraft that a civ trained pilot could only dream of

Oh dear. With an attitude like that its probably best you stay away then! If you're all so great then why can't you fly an Airbus any better than a non-mil pilot? You may also find that 7-12yrs command time in a single seat bomber is not particularly relevant to a 150+ seat, 2 pilot aircraft with 6 Doris's down the back.

....but 4000+ hrs on transport aircraft is.

"If you're all so great then why can't you fly an Airbus any better than a non-mil pilot?"

....because you don't fly an airbus, you use the stick to ask the computer very nicely if it wouldn't mind moving the Elevators / Ailerons. Mil pilots are used to having full control authority over their aircraft.

....and we would know what to do with it if someone took a pot-shot at you going into BAH or similar, not an unrealistic prospect in this day and age.

OK, a bit of frivolous banter, I admit, but like I said, breadth of experience.....

Seems to me that most flight crew are at their happiest when moaning. It's the same across all companies. We need to look at what we're doing and accept we get paid well to do a great job, yes the social life suffers but would anyone seriously rather be in the rat-race working a 9 to 5 behind a desk?? Especially as Ex-mil, civvie or Cadet, we are all drinking buddies in the bar afterwards!!

I am in the following dillema, do I apply to BA now and get on the seniority list and then have the opportunity to move between short and long haul, or stay orange and have a command in a year?? from what i can gather about BA, I think staying put is the option of choice.

16 blades, you obviously did so well during your RAF career that you're still flying a turboprop, so where does your knowledge of the Airbus (or any jet) come from ? perhaps you flew a few hours on the JP or got chopped on the Hawk and spent lots of hours in the bar talking about jets. But no doubt you'll tell us you WANTED to fly that aircraft rather than a jet, be it a small or large one :rolleyes:

Anyway that really doesn't matter, the point is, regardless of what you fly (and I did 20 years on Betty's payroll) you don't need to bring your attitude and arrogance to the civilian world. There are good, bad and indifferent pilots in the military & civvy street. I've now had 10 years on this side of the fence and was made to feel most welcome from day 1. Just because the rules are different doesn't mean they are any less of a pilot that you in your Hercules. I would recommend you remain at Lyneham.

16 blades;

The arrogance of your post is dreadful!!

Respect is earned not a right, no matter what your background is.

In my experience there are just as many good or bad, tossers or good eggs from the ex mil background or civil.

The good egg ex mil pilot realises that civil flying is a different job that sometimes requires different skills, fits in and works well with his crew.

Read your posts again........ what do you think you are?

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

I believe you have misread 16 Blades' post, as what I see there is not a message of extreme arrogance but a posting of fact.

The point is that there is a great deal of difference between the fabulous training that the RAF provided and continues to provide to this day, and the attitude that one is God's gift to aviation.

I cannot see where 16 blades has stated (unlike Lord FH) that he is such. I can only see that he asks for a degree of acknowledgement of the the experience that he brings with him.

The same goes for the wealth of experience that a self-improver who has flown in far more basic aircraft than most other people for a regional, or the cadet who was chosen as one of thousands who applied, and did a rigorous course to get where he is.

Perhaps, rather than putting off all of us who aspire to your esteemed position, you should focus the attention of your wrath on the management who allow a culture such as this to develop. I seriously thought that with the amount of work that has been put into the training system within BA to ensure that CRM and teamwork exist that many of you could be more mature than this, as young airlines such as EasyJet are patently showing you up at your own game.

Point of action - get off PPRuNe, stop whinging, and go and offer to write for the Fleet Newsletters for example.

It might be easy to vent your frustrations here, but why can you not be more constructive and provide articles that nurture the positive culture that I know BA has. So long as you sit here doing nothing, management are going to write more articles and do more stupid things that divide the workforce and chip away at CRM.

If you don't pull together, incidents like the stalled 777 will end up in a smoking hole.

re heat, good post, however i do disagree with you regarding 16 blades, i quote;

"Is the attitude to ex-mil pilots as expressed in here prevalent throughout your company? If so, another reason not to join. The simple fact is, Mil pilots (of whatever flavour) are trained and held to much, much higher standards than civ trained pilots"

is this a fact? or is it arrogance? Considering this person has no experience of civil flying I think it is the latter. He does believe he is better.

16

everything you could expect an arrogant ex forces ****** to say. Stay put.

Re heat

Get some facts right (777???). Oh and try getting a pilot's licence. Its so much better to read something if you are dealing with an equal and not a "City" boy however annoying.

NN

Actually normal_nigel

I can't know precisely to which incident Re-Heat refers, but I believe we did very nearly lose a 777 a while back.

And a very interesting story it was too!

Maybe YOU should get some facts right!

Think you should do some growing up mate, and take a closer look at YOUR attitude!

Your posts seem rather immature!

Has anyone heard anything about DEP recruitment at BA?

Silly me, I must be on the wrong thread.

DEPs

The Director of Flight Crew announced last week that some contracts will be in the post by the end of September.

N.B. The plan has probably changed since then! :D

Tandem

"I believe" "very interesting" blah blah blah

Grow up. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. If you think that discussing almost "losing" a 777 on a public forum you obviously have a really mature handle on things. That will really help BA. Prick.

If you must know the only recent "incident" which in the end was a none event was on a 744.

Now who should check their posts?

NN

The "stalled" 777 was not a "recent" incident, unless there has been another one.....

Gentlemen, please!!!!

My last post was tongue-in-cheek, intended as some light-hearted banter, as I alluded to at the end. My postings here have not been intended to offend - if they have, I apologise.

The point I was making, and thank you Reheat and Tandem for spotting this, was that the SCOPE and BREADTH of military training is far beyond that in the civil aviation world. Airline pilots are not trained to fly transport aircraft at 250' (or lower), in hostile environments, often on NVGs, to airdrop stores to ground forces or ships, or land on remote short semi-prepared strips. If you read through my posts carefully, nowhere did I say or imply that ex-mil guys are BETTER PILOTS than civ-trained guys, just that the range of skills we have developed are much broader. Yet this thread seems to imply that ex-mil guys and the experience they bring to the civ world are not valued very much, at least not at BA.

Yes, I am fully aware that civil aviation is a different kettle of fish, but surely experience on the mil transport fleet is relevant? You guys make out that it is worthless and not welcome.

I am not arrogant about flying - arrogance in the air will get you killed, whatever you fly and whoever you fly for. I certainly do not think I am gods gift to aviation - far from it. I will admit that I have never flown a jet - and whilst I did, like almost everybody, join the RAF with the ambition to fly fast jets, I was never given this opportunity, so I do not know if I would have been good enough. And no, I wasn't chopped anywhere - it was a case of ME slots that needed filling at the time.

What IS obvious here is the vitriol directed at ex-mil guys in BA, deserved or not. Virgin seems like a much more pleasant place to be right now.

16B

normal-nigel

Nice one, I haven't laughed so much in ages!

Lots of ex military types in Virgin and they are generally pleasant, nice folk to share a flightdeck with. They generally only talk about their exploits if you ask them (usually worth it!) and I have yet to meet one who says out loud that he/she is superior to everyone who didn't wear a green (or red) flying suit.

There were some jokers a few years back who thought that they should jump the seniority list simply because of their background but they were given short thrift from the powers that be.

Anyone like Lord Flashart would be unlikely to get through the selection process unless they could disguise that incredible arrogance for a day. The whole point of the process is not to find out if you can fly upside down over Scotland but if you are the sort of bod that you could stand being with for 10 hours in a flightdeck and several days in a hotel. This point seems to have been missed.

normal nigel,

You're not management are you? :{

Tandem

Do you laugh when you don't have an answer then?

Come back when you get a licence.

Love child

Def not

NN

16 blades,

I accept all your comments. You will need one more skill when you arrive though. Working as a co-pilot for a younger Captain. Too many ex-mil guys don't 'get the picture' until they've got a reputation that is hard to shake off. Oh, and if you fly manually in a civilian jet try to remember that their are a lot of people behind you. Smooth.
P.S. I heard that whenever the wind gets up you all sit in the mess. Is that why your x-wind landings are so ropey?

normal-nigel

What kind of answer were you looking for? Did you ask a question?

What kind of a licence would I require for you to consider you were, "dealing with an equal and not a 'City' boy"?

normal? nigel?

I don't think you're either. You sound more like a 'Simon' to me!

Mods - please can we close this thread and have one that is of use to those interested in joining BA instead of the slagging match that it has decended into.......:\

It is getting a bit long and unwieldy. If anyone wishes to start another thread on this subject , go ahead.

Well a professional one issued by the CAA would be a start.

Try CPL or ATPL.

Oh and the insult was cutting. Ouch

At Jet Driver's request, I've started a new thread to continue the discussion about DEP recruitment and Terms and Conditions.


NN,

I'm sure Tandemrotor can defend himself, suffice to say he's suitably qualified to debate you on here. :E