View Full Version : Bournemouth IR pass rates
19th Apr 2004, 10:15
FYI - all flying schools will tell you that most students achieve a first time pass art their IR.
I was told that by EPTA/Cabair Bournemouth. And then I got there and got a partial. The previous 2 students got partials while I was there. And I now hear that the 2 after me got partials too. Meanwhile I hear that 70% of students at PAT are getting first time passes. Something doesn't add up....
The other thing to tell you about EPTA is that there is absolutely no careers support after you leave. Oxford provide it - why cant Cabair?
And finally, I just heard that a mate of mine landed was told he could commute there in his own (share of a) plane, and would get the £10 Cabair landing rate.... and then he got charged at £36/landing, and EPTA now deny all knowledge after he finished making all his landings/practise approaches...
My advice - steer clear of EPTA.
19th Apr 2004, 11:06
Well at least you didn't fail out-right. That's got to be worth something?
As for careers help: you shouldn't believe a word of it, from any school, including the one you went to. Unless you signed a employment contract for a company to fly with, you are on your own.
This really should not come as a shock to anyone.
19th Apr 2004, 11:18
A lot of schools give people data on first SERIES passes when asked for first time passes. At my IR school, they published a list of all the IR results for that year and while I never added them up, it looked like around 30% of candidates were getting a first time pass. I believe that that is more representative and I have heard the same number from another large UK FTO.
Anyway, getting a partial is a huge achievement in itself - it is a nightmare test and everybody makes mistakes on it - it is just luck if the mistakes you make don't make you fail a section IMHO.
19th Apr 2004, 11:25
I have been told that the first-time pass rate, nationwide, on the initial IRT is around 45%, so certainly no-one can say "most student" overall pass first time. There are many that get a lot better than the average however, and can say so of their own students - inculding two others at EGHH alone apart from PAT (obviously working here I know more about local companies - this is just an example, I am sure there are others elsewhere). This suggests to me that there are also many with lower pass rates, including some very expensive, well-known schools according to people I have met who have attended those schools (that is hearsay so I am certainly not going to tell a name nor give it any more value than that! However if you take 6 months to complete an IR, something I know happened in one case, then the chances of a first-time pass are remote).
However, be wary of schools who over train all of their students just to get high pass rates. I don't know of that happening at the schools I know much about (really ETA (as opposed to EPTA), BCFT and PAT down here) but there have been complaints in this forum about this happening elsewhere.
19th Apr 2004, 11:30
And don't, whatever you do, dare name any of the schools which overtrain or you'll face the wrath of the moderators. Let's face it, spend enough time and money and most people should get a pass.
My names Turkish
19th Apr 2004, 11:46
Hang on a second mate:
The other thing to tell you about EPTA is that there is absolutely ZERO careers support after you leave. Am I bitter? Yes. Very
Are you serious!? Can you possibly be that naive? I dont mean to be too blunt but havent you been reading these forums over the last year or so? There isint exactly an over supply of jobs at the moment. I don know that there had been in the past some links with some of the school on the field and European but I think it is safe to say that this is now gon. I dont see how not getting you a job a valid compaint about any school.
I had wondered the same thing about Bournemouth myself. It didnt seem like anyone was passing their IRs first time, but most of them did admit to making the mistakes they failed for. One of my friends passed his IR there first time last week so its not impossible. Maybe a harder look in the Mirror is needed?
19th Apr 2004, 12:46
I've heard from an authoritative source that the 45% first time pass rate quoted by Send Clowns is correct.
trainer too 2
19th Apr 2004, 13:45
While at PAT I felt that I have not been over trained at all (as remarked by sent clowns as well) and I had a first time pass rate on my IR. Had an excellent instructor though who every time I messed up during IR training was kind enough to point out that in the IR test such a mistake would cost me at least GBP 2500 extra in re-training and re exams etc.. :E
That kept me focused allright :ok:
Also there was one or two students that I wouldn't like to fly with that did go to the test against better judgement and failed that happens as well! It is not only the school but also the wishful thinking of a lot of us that bring the percentages down... Not sure how to deal with that as a school...
So yes look around and talk to the students and specially past students if you can find them as they will advertise all the things a school will not tell you! (at PAT they have Bruno, a dog that eats your lunch for instance... :ooh: but hey I can handle buying a new sandwich :p )
19th Apr 2004, 16:40
As far as I was aware the only school in the UK that even came close to offering career support was OAT. Going on past experiences of ppruners posting on these forums this service had been focussed more towards the integrated students and only then the cream of the crop which the airlines could hand pick. As most people will be aware OAT have a new programme but you pay more for the priviledge and still need to make the grade to give yourself a chance in anycase.
If it is networking for possible job opportunities then there are some schools that have "traditional" links with airlines. There are others where you can even by trained for your IR by training captains from the likes of the majors. None of this will guarantee you a job though. Had never heard of EPTA having career support or ways in to jobs.
19th Apr 2004, 20:36
RE the 45% pass rate. I believe it was about this a couple of years ago and the anecdotal information I heard from colleagues who did the IR would support that.
What I don't understand is if the pass rate is so consistently low is there not a mismatch between what is taught and what is expected.
The IR is hard and its certainly a stage of flying beyond VFR but first time passes ought to be more like 80-90%if the examiners and schools are liasing with each other. Otherwise why are the schools handing out the 1179's. If the 50 hour course isn't long enough or has the wrong mix of single/twin/sim time in it then the schools should do something.
Everyone knows few people do the PPL in 45 hours and most shcools are quite honest about pointing this out and saying 60-70 is the more likely average. Should the commercial schools not do the same about the IR?
trainer too 2
19th Apr 2004, 22:14
I thought that 1179s went out with the arrival of the JARs??
19th Apr 2004, 22:49
50 (or 55) hours is enough for a standard IR course. I know schools that have very high pass rates, in the 70s or even 80s of %, with most students doing little or no more than the basic. Perhaps it helps as you suggest that they work closely with the examiners, as there is a CAAFEU on the airport. However I don't think a general extension is required. I actually passed after less than 50 hours, had to fly a couple of hours after the test, and would not have appreciated having to pay any more at over £300 per hour!
20th Apr 2004, 01:06
I am with Send Clowns on the above statement.
I was a student at PAT 2003 / 2004. I was lucky enough to be twinned with someone else through my IR giving me the oppertunity to sit in the back and watch what went on. The advantages were double exposure to the IR flying environment and learning by someone elses mistakes. Perhaps without this I may not have been as prepared for the IRT. Who knows......
I can only speak for myself, but for me training with someone else was key to my progress through the course.
Do most schools try and promote this? I am sure they do!
If you have just finished your ATPL's and starting the CPL /IR, my "limited" advice would be to try and pair up with someone. It can only be a positive move!
20th Apr 2004, 13:04
If the national average is 45%, then I would bet there are some schools achieving >55% and some schools achieving <35%. I am just saying that I know EPTA has been nearer the latter over the last several months.
I also know that some schools would rather over-train than under-train students. But there is never any excuse to under-train students, and at £500+ (incl CAA fees) for a partial resit there is also a financial argument (I am not arguing EPTA under-trained me, just that the training was more 3* than 5*).
I know what mistake I made in the test, and I know that the tuition given on the procedure was not ideal. My tutor(s) told me to monitor what I was doing, rather than giving me specific parameters to fly to. I believe that small difference cost me a first time pass.
Lastly, on careers advice, if OAT can get an airline in once a month to discuss its plans and answer student questions, why can't Cabair? Cabair has not demonstrated connections with any UK airline other than FlyBe. I purposely went to EPTA not OAT, as I was a modular student and did not want to be treated as a second class citizen. But I did not realise there would be no after qualification support.
Conclusion: dont go to Cabair/EPTA thinking the brand will buy you 5* tuition, a better chance of a first time pass, or contact with airlines - because it wont do any of it. :(
p.s. Turkish - that was one out of how many of your friends passed first time? If statistically more people are partialling their first attempt, then it may not be all the fault of the students...
20th Apr 2004, 13:19
I asked some friends at Bristol Flying Centre about this a few months ago. They said that the first time pass rate certainly was 60%+ a few years ago when they had a high proportion of ex-military pilots coming through but now it is more like 45%. They also said that it was almost unheard of to not get a first series pass. The instructors there attach less importance than you might think to a first-time pass. It's very nice and all that but the test is so long and to such a high standard that even very good pilots can fall slightly from grace and end up with a partial.
20th Apr 2004, 17:20
Please don't take this personally, I'm only trying to be objective as I'm about to choose where to go for my IR and so have a couple of queries:
1. Had you just sat your test when you initially posted and were letting off some steam or is that your honest,considered opinion on the school. I would have thought that even getting a partial would please you, and I wish you all the best in the re take.
2. Did cabair promise some sort of airline connection. I too am a modular student and purposefully avoided cabair, not down to any lack of airline connections but down to a poor reputation.
As everyone says here already, schools don't get you jobs, thats down to you.
21st Apr 2004, 12:14
This is now getting personal.
If thatís you Simon, as one of your instructors I feel that the rest of the forum should know a few things:
Simon arrived at EPTA and made demands about his training from day one, one of which was reduced landing fees so he could commute in his aircraft down to us, the rest involved intensive training at his convenience. He was put forward for test having completed 52.7 hours of training which took 44 days including weekends etc, thatís just over 6 weeks which is the minimum allowed by JAA. He partialed on the ILS and then completed a week later with no further training taken, but took advantage of the free simulator use we offer to our students in this situation.
If its not you then I apologize and maybe Arrowhead would like to reveal himself to me so I can respond appropriately.
Also the rest of the students here are disgusted with this post, especially after having slot times changed to convenience you, but, at my request will not respond.
21st Apr 2004, 13:48
Aren't we meant to keep personal names from these boards? We all know there are 2 sides to every story and it would be a rare wannabee that reads these posts and acts on them without sourcing other information to corraborate facts.
Lets face it the guy got his facts wrong and wrongly assumed that schools found people jobs. It is unfortunate but there you go.
At the same time I am sure that you don't take new students aside and say "you do realise that you are about to pay me £x and I will not find you a job don't you?". Or for that matter include it in the sales patter when people call up your school? I am not saying you necessarily should, buyer beware and all that but it takes 2 to tango.
The personal nature of your reply though makes me wonder as a prospective CPL/IR student next year....Cheers
21st Apr 2004, 20:21
Well if he flew with you Andy, I can't see he has any complaints. I have no idea about any other instructors at EPTA, but appreciate the training you gave me when you were at SFT. I certainly didn't take 50 hours to pass my IR. No idea what your schools pass rates are either, but I hope your own standards are being kept up!
21st Apr 2004, 22:56
Unusually I find myselfin agreement with Send Clowns reference Andy Hogg.
I done my training at PAT but a couple of the instructors there were former colleagues of Andy and both spoke extremely highly of him. I met him when I was doing the tour of the schools and he appeared to be the most knowledgeable and genuine voice at EPTA.
With reference to pass rates when I was at PAT most people were passing first time and if not certainly within the first series.
I would be surprised if that had changed very much over the last eighteen months. I am not sure if there a league table of approved schools with relevant passes etc if there isn't why havn't the government introduced one like they have done for other education establishments and health.
22nd Apr 2004, 07:18
Re league tables........
Because they are only of moderate interest and do not tell you much. I suppose at the extremes if schools are having 100% pass/fail rates on first attempts then that might be of some interest. BUT you would then have to find out what was influencing the statistics. Could be that a school with 100% pass rate had:-
- majority of its customers converting from military or o/seas licences
- over trained you and required you to do say 65 hours prior to taking the test
- or they could be bl**dy good!!
It also works vice versa. Don't get me wrong I am all in favour of transparency but it is only 1 piece of the jigsaw.
22nd Apr 2004, 11:48
Take the example in this case. EPTA were teaching a particularly difficult group of students, from a culture that is not conducive to flight training (considering the idiot who nearly gave me a heart attack with his position report the other day, I suspect they may still be). These would affect the statistics despite anything the school could do.
Other schools have students sponsored by UK airlines. They have all passed aptitude tests, so will on average fly reasonably well and be easier to teach.
As you can see, league tables would not be very much help.
22nd Apr 2004, 18:03
I may be a little naive here but with league tables that relate directly to gft/irt passes ensure transparency within the industry.
Or have some schools have something to hide, also this would sift some of the genuine claims from not so genuine.
Send Clowns you must have some sort of superiority complex.
By suggesting that certain cultures may not up to flying is nonsense.
22nd Apr 2004, 18:21
Unfortunatly I know what Send clowns is on about. And its a pretty common feeling with the instructors who teach these chaps how to fly.
22nd Apr 2004, 22:15
Rob - I never said they're not up to flying. Please read a post before insulting the poster. I said their culture is not conducive to flight training. Unless you have completely missed all the Human Performance / CRM / MCC training you will be quite aware that the existence of cultural issues in flying is well documented.
Do you seriously believe that all cultures are the same? If so where does the concept of culture come from? If not why should all cultures respond in the same way to flight training?
23rd Apr 2004, 07:33
I thought i'd take the heat out of this one.
I visited EPTA acouple of days ago, and the CFI made my wife and i coffee, black no sugar, just as we had asked.
Believe me, some places couldn't even get that right!
Maybe I won't be practicing "would you like fries with that" just yet!!
23rd Apr 2004, 09:17
I Passed my ME IR Last week first time with AFT at Exeter. I don't consider myself at all to be above average or natural when it comes to picking up new skills.
My advice is pick a good school with a good solid track record, experienced, well qualified instructors and back seat as much as possible from day 1. The test is difficult but people do pass it first time and so don't spend too much time looking at pass rates on paper, get down to the schools and speak to the current students and instructors.
I passed in min hours (50 hr course) but I reckon I spent more like 85 -90 hours in the air over the 6 weeks. You pick so much up watching people making the same type of mistakes you will or have make.
Good luck to all.