2:1 Degree and 25 (by one day!)

[What to do?]

Morning all

I've got a 2:1 degree from Sheffield Uni and a masters from Bristol Uni, which most employers seem to appreciate. As the title suggests I'm also fairly young (how the fairly hurts!). What are the chances of getting picked up pretty quickly (given that I'd be qualified at 26?

Cheers

[Flypuppy]

As good (or as bad) as anyone else's chances.

[What to do?]

so you're suggesting that a very good degree has no consequence whatsoever?

[FlyingForFun]

What,

I can't speak for the aviation industry in particular, but I think it's true that, in general, each industry respects formal education up to a point, but beyond that point any extra education won't be an advantage.

The exact point obviously varies from industry to industry, but within IT any education up to and including a Batchelors degree will give you higher pay and a higher entry level (until the point where your experience starts to count for more than your education). However, I have, over the years, worked alongside many people with Masters degrees and PhDs who have a similar level of industry experience to me, and have generally been on a similar salary to them, at a similar grade to them, despite their having a higher formal education than me. In other industries a PhD counts for a lot. In some industries, anything above A Levels (or even lower) doesn't count for much.

A look at the minimum education requirements for a selection of airlines should give you a clue where aviation fits into the scale.

FFF
----------------

[Flypuppy]

A current Class 1 medical, CPL/IR and MCC is much more important, as is the right attitude.

The latter possibly even more important.

[RichardH]

You don't say what your degree is in. If it is maths/science related then this shall help you in the ATPL exams.

Your degree is a bonus in general terms, but airlines don't really care provided you have THEIR requirements, usually FrATPL/IR and HOURS.

I have recommended on this forum before that a degree is a very good thing to have as a fall-back position. Degrees open doors to jobs should things go pear-shaped. Aviation is a very strange industry and the more back-up plans you have the better. I have used mine more than once.

[Hufty]

Smaller airlines might be more interested in your qualifications if you have a skill that is directly related to the running of the airline (engineering, business etc.) You might be more valuable to them if you're prepared to take on additional desk-based responsibilities and have the right skills.

Hufty

[mazzy1026]

IMHO experience is the key word here. I am on a gap year from uni as an analyst/developer for the NHS and will complete my final year of an IT degree in 2005.

The degree is just the first stepping stone - it is kind of like the gateway to the world of work (in IT anyway). I took a year out because I know for a fact it will put me in a better position than other graduates who havent got the experience. I have learned more on my year out than anything I have ever studied in a classroom - the classroom just gets you ready for the industry, when your in the job, thats when the learning really starts.

As for aviation, my guess would be that the number of hours is what mattered and the a/c type etc. As well as the relevant ratings.

Best of luck

Maz

[What to do?]

toodle pip all

Flypup, I wasn't suggesting that my geology degree, if placed on a particularly well calibrated airline application scale, would equal a medical, bags of hours, and multiple type ratings. Namely because geologists don't know how to fly commercial jets, unless I missed that module.

What I would like to know is whether my degree and age would be a good springboard compared with somebody without a degree of a similar age, or perhaps even younger. I find it is in almost every other profession.

cheers

[Flypuppy]

What,

All I was trying to say is that when you are applying to airlines is that their primary educational requirements are those that relate to flying.

The next thing that they will look at is your attitude and personality. They will look at you and how you interact with others. This is where the Chief Pilot or Director of Flight Ops will deicide if he could work for 8 hours with you in a closed confined space, sometimes under great pressure and then want to go for a couple of beers with you afterwards.

Holding a good degree and M.Sc. is a sign that you have determination and an ability to absorb complex pieces of information and make some kind of logical sense of them, it won't be overlooked, but will come in 3rd place behind the two above mentioned qualities/qualifications.

I know of one chap who's only other educational qualification is an O level in Woodwork but he now flies very large jet aeroplanes for a long haul operator.

Often there is little logic in airline hiring and trying to make sense of it just gives you a headache.

As I have said elsewhere, always have a back up plan when considering going into commercial aviation training and never expect to have a job waiting for you at the other end of that training. To believe otherwise will only lead to frustation and nasty letters from the bank manager.

Best of luck anyway. :ok:

[FlyingForFun]

What,

Ask yourself what your Masters degree gives you which makes you a better pilot than someone without one? The answer, I would guess, is not very much.

A Batchelors degree proves to an employer that you are capable of studying fairly advanced material and applying yourself academically, which is important in terms of getting type ratings (something your employer will hopefully pay for, so they want to be confident you'll pass easilly). A degree in maths or physics is even better, because some of the material can be applied to flying. But all of this is covered, to some extent, by the ATPL written exams anyway, so even the Batchelors doesn't really add very much to your marketability, I wouldn't have thought.

You said: "I find [my degree and age would be a good springboard compared with somebody without a degree of a similar age] in almost every other profession." That is only true where the degree either provides you with extra knowledge or skills which are directly relevant, or where it proves you have other qualities which are directly relevant. The qualities needed to complete a Masters degree, although not to be sneered at, are not relevant to aviation. They will certainly not harm you, but I wouldn't expect them to help you too much either. The same, as I said, is true in the area of IT that I work in - anything beyond a Batchelors will not generally help your career at all, even if it is an IT-related subject.

FFF
--------------

[What to do?]

Hey ho

Cheers guys, it's good to know. I know it's been hashed to death, but 25 (by 2 days!) isn't a problem is it, provided I get things moving?

Cheers

[Flypuppy]

At 25 you have more than enough time. You are 10 years younger than I am. Age-wise you have nothing to worry about.
Just make sure your pockets are deep enough ;)

Many of the people who I have met during training have generally been in their early/mid 20's through to their early 40's. There are many people who have started their flying careers in their mid-30's and have achieved relatively high positions in their respective companies.

Best of luck.

[scroggs]

I'm sorry, maybe I missed something, but What to do? does not explain at any point what he hopes to be 'picked up quickly' for?

We must assume, as you are on the Wannabes forum for budding pilots, that you'd like to fly, but how? What? In what capacity? Are you looking for sponsorship, or are you speculating about your chances of employment post-training?

Without more information from you about your ambitions and your expectations, it's very difficult to comment on your original post - except to say it's remarkably uninformative yet somewhat boastful!

Scroggs

[What to do?]

Story of my life!

Basically I mean picked up by the major carriers post training, and specifically if they give a damn about degree qualifications.

cheers

[Ropey Pilot]

I'm not sure why so many people seem to think that a maths/ physics degree is so helpful to ATPL exams/flying. (Not just on this thread - seems to be a reasonably widely held belief in my opinion)

I have an engineering degree and the maths/physics involved in that have next to no relevance to me as a pilot (unless airline flying is going to take me very much by surprise:uhoh: ).

Basic maths/physics knowledge is required but I have never applied anything I learned beyond O-level. (The world of Laplace transforms, fourier series, imaginary numbers and generally the type of thing that covers the blackboards in biopics such as 'A beatuiful mind' and that one on Hawking recently are irrelevant to the stick monkey at the front).

As has been mentioned, a degree shows the ability to learn and apply oneself, but so does a frozen ATPL (and if from a non-academic background perhaps even more so).
Airlines have minimum qualification requirements because that is all that is required to do the job. Anything beyond that might be coonsidered a bonus - whether it is a degree or an extra five or six years in the real world dealing with real people:}

[silverknapper]

I did an aero eng degree, which without wanting to get into a degree argument carries a bit more weight than a Geology degree especially in this type of job. And to be perfectly honest I wish I hadn't bothered. Yes I am fine with some of the ATPL stuff but I would have been just out of school. And I don't think for a minute it will stand me in better stead for a job. And the cash I blew whilst at uni would have been better spent on flying. I guess when I finished school I thought that was the next logical step! Hindsight - what a great thing!!
As everyone says - having a licence is the most important thing.

[onthebuses]

What,

I think you need to make better use of this forum. I have just read this thread and you dont seem to fully appreciate the process of recruitment by these "Major carriers" you desire to work for, and I have to agree with the comments of scroggs about the way your posts have come across..

Have a good look around the forums, it won't take very much of your time of efffort to work out that your expectations are way off line and that you are heading for some big dissapointment.

If you are 25 now, and you hope to "springboard" to the RHS for lets say BA or Virgin by 26, you have already proved to yourself and everyone here that you need to do more research. I wonder how many guys out there have managed to get from zero to fATPL and the RHS for any carrier regardless of size in 12 months?? You are dreaming pal - no matter how bright you are!!!

Maybe you should consider the sponsered route, but I recon if you go in there with your masters and a bucket load of arrogance, they will just file you.. IMHO..

Try I.T I recon you are much better suited.. Something in sales maybe??

OTB

p.s. please egscuse ani spelinn miztaks but i finissed scoool at o' level an i'm bit fik like..:rolleyes:

[Caracul]

Originally posted by onthebuses
you have already proved to yourself and everyone here that you need to do more research.

I would have thought that by signing up to the forum, and asking people their opinions, he was trying to do that.

I'm not sure how relevant degrees are, personally. I think that on the one hand, you will have matured that much more, compared to when first leaving school. However, if someone wants to fly so much, then they may forego further education because their dream is so strong.

What I think is a more valid point, is whether you harm your chances by not acting as soon as you leave education. Surely someone that has applied for sponsorship, or started their training immediately will be a better prospect than the person who does nothing for a couple of years and then decides that a flying career would be fun. By this I mean those who do *nothing*, so all those who have gotten jobs to pay for flight training, I didn't mean that.

[scroggs]

Hey, I have no problem with the query, and I don't care particularly what preconceptions What has - we can deal with those if he lets us know what they are! We just need a little more information if we are to give him useful advice.

If What just wants to show off the fact that he has a degree and a Masters at 25, well, it's a bit daft but job done! If he seriously wants to learn whether his educational achievements will aid him in the task of becoming a professional pilot, perhaps a different style and content of the question would have been more helpful.

Anyway, let's assume that he knows nothing much about becoming a professional pilot - we were all in that boat at one time or other. So, what do his degrees count for in our field?

Essentially, the answer is 'not a lot'! If the old BA sponsorship was around, and currently on the Britannia sponsorship, a degree - any degree - may be helpful, but it is and was a lot less important than aptitude and personality. There is no requirement in commercial aviation for degree-standard knowledge of any subject (and certainly not engineering!), and educational requirements of most employers are usually 5 GCSE's at Grade C or above (to include maths, English and a science) and two A2s in any subject whatsoever. These requirements are very flexible if you are more than a couple of years post-education and have a licence.

In What's case, we must assume (unless he tells us otherwise) that he has no flying experience, and is hoping for some kind of sponsorship. As I know you can all vouch, these are very few and far between - but they do exist. He needs to research Britannia, FlyBe, EasyJet and MyTravel (the CTC-McAlpine scheme) through this forum. However, he should be prepared for the fact that, like the majority of wannabes, he will have to source and pay for his training himself - and that will cost him somewhere between £45,000 and £70,000 depending on which route he takes. It will take around 18 months to two years, and his degrees will be totally irrelevant. And then he has to find a job......

Any further advice will have to wait for more information from What as to his plans and ambitions, and an honest appreciation of what he knows about the subject so far. I have a feeling that he's just dipping a toe in the water of what appears to be an attractive career, and he hasn't yet really thought through what he wants to do with the rest of his life. I wait to be proved wrong.....

Scroggs

[G-LOST]

I personally don't think it helps a great deal. Airlines are more interested in your aviation experience, your life experience and then maybe your educational qualifications. They can also work against you - it may take some explaining as to why you are not following your field of expertise. I have 2 degrees and a diploma, all in Law. I got a job 2 months before a mate who has no degree to my knowledge, but like me, a great deal of life experience earned in the emergency services. Don't think qualifications really had much to do with it - flying experience, networking and immediate availability got us our jobs.

[What to do?]

Hello

Thanks for the informative posts. Firstly, onthebuses, you're a moron who's really missed the point. Look at how many hits this thread as had. It's a very serious consideration which I don't see discussed anywhere else. Also your attitude towards learning disorders and educational standards is/are dangerous, distasteful, inconsiderate, and utterly unnecessary.

Secondly, Scroggs, thanks your post perfectly sums up my present position. I've had a couple of lessons, and I'm going to study for my PPL in one month. Whilst I understand this will not be a perfect insight (like many brief internships and vacation placements), I feel it's as close I can get without actually doing the job (?). I've also been chatting to pilots and and training providers who think it's a good idea. For the record, there has been a mixed response from these guys about the relevance of a degree.

onthebuses (pal), I wasn't expecting to leap into a shiny jet liner immediately after I qualify.

I'm sorry if my posts have been a little vague. I'm quite prepared to have to pay for the training myself. Naturally I'd rather not, and I'm really quite apprehensive about doing it if the employment prospects (given age, the licence, medical, a positive and affable personality [and degree!]) aren't reasonable. I'm really quite positive about about flying as a possible career, but I'm NOT going to spend vast tracts of cash if the chances of employment are stupidly low.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think it's important to be very pragmatic about spending 45K in any situation, and I expect something positive for my investment. As a consequence, perhaps my post about educational standards was a little boastful. I want it to be. I want it to increase my chances of gaining employment, especially after nervously spending 45K. I now understand that perhaps it's not as useful as it is in many sectors, and I very much appreciate the majority of your posts.

Kind regards

[scroggs]

What thanks for getting back to us.

Firstly, don't let people wind you up - it's not worth the wasted heartbeats!

Secondly, well done for seeking opinions from pilots first hand. Beware taking their opinions at face value, though - many instructors, let alone PPLs, have little or no experience of the professional jobs market, and will feed you their preconceptions and assumptions rather than facts. The important fact is that your degrees count for much less than you might expect in this field. Their importance lies in their relevance to alternative employers should flying not work out.

Thirdly, even more well done for starting down the road to a PPL - you'd be amazed how many people profess flying as their ideal career, yet they've never gone and had a go at flying an aeroplane.

As the 'Do You Really Want To Do This' thread is beginning to explore, earning to fly is as valid a way of getting your aviation fix as is flying to earn, and may suit many people better. Maximum earnings in airline flying, after 30+ years of what to many people would be long haul tedium, is around £120,000 pa in UK. The average for experienced pilots is between £40k and £60k per year. It's relatively easy to earn a great deal more than that outside aviation in a number of career fields, without some of the disadvantages of aviation's somewhat strange employment idiosyncracies, including the vast investment up front! Think about that before you commit to those tens of thousands of pounds for your training.

Anyway, from your last post, I think you've gotten the idea. Best of luck, whatever you finally choose to do.

Scroggs