Buying a share for hour building.

[Half a Mexican]

Now it’s going to be a little while before I get ‘round to doing my hour building but I just wanted to get some info on something.

I’m looking into buying a share in an aircraft and doing my hour building on it. Does anyone have any experience with this?

It sounds like a good idea to me; you could simultaneously study for your ATPL’s and hour build cheaply in UK airspace. Also I assume the majority of the group would have full time jobs, you would be able to get good access to the aircraft during the week. You would also be able to fly regularly and maintain currency.

Now the only thing I’m worried about is selling the share once I’m done with the hour building. I may not want to but I’ll no doubt need the money for the CPL/IR. How easy are shares to sell? I don’t want to have my training delayed because the money is tied up in an aircraft. Also, are groups happy to take on wannabes with fresh PPL’s or are there insurance issues?

[I’ve done a search on this, but I just wanted some more input on it]

Cheers,

--
HaM:}

[FlyingForFun]

There are quite a few factors to consider here, HaM.

Selling the share, as you say, may be a concern. Who knows what the market will be like in 12 months time, or whenever you're ready to sell? You can do a few things to help yourself, though. Buying into an obscure type that no one's ever heard of, for example, might not be such a good idea. Newer aircraft will tend to depreciate in value more than older aircraft, so you may not get back as much as you invested. It may be easier to sell a share at the start of the flying season than the end. And so on.

I have no personal experience of selling. When I bought into my aircraft, I bought the fourth share out of six, so there were still two more to sell. Both of these were sold within a month. Since then, a few of the original group members have moved on, and all of them sold their share for the original price (which conflicts with what I said earlier about newer aircraft depreciating) within two or three months. I can't promise that this is a typical sitation, though, and it is a particularly nice aircraft even if I say so myself.

Studying and flying simultaneously is definitely possible. (Ok, not literally simultaneously - I'd suggest putting the books down before going to the airfield, and picking them up again afterwards!) Availability will vary from group to group. At one point, my group of six was split between two 9-5ers who flew at weekends, two retired pilots who flew during the week, and two shift-workers who flew whenever their work rostas allowed - that was ideal! But availability is something you will need to ask about when you buy a share.

Each group will have its own rules about experience requirements, but I don't think many groups will rule out a new PPL. My own group will allow anyone to join. As much type training as necessary with a PFA instructor is a group and an insurance requirement, and if the insurance premiums are increased because of your inexperience you pay the difference. I think you'll find this is a fairly typical arrangement. The only time I can see a problem is if you're looking to buy into a single-seat aircraft where training can't be given, especially if it is a tailwheel aircraft and you have no tailwheel time.

More of an issue than lack of hours might be the fact that you are simply there to hour-build. Aircraft need regular attention, whether it be cleaning it before it goes back into the hangar, getting your hands dirty when it comes to regular maintenance, or getting involved in discussions about the various options available for resolving problems. You may find some groups will be wary of someone who they feel might not pull their weight when it comes to these types of things, and who is just there for cheap flying.

Hope that helps. Have fun!

FFF
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[High Wing Drifter]

I bought my share to hour build. However, now that I have it, I can't stand the thought of not having it. In retrospect I think it was a daft idea to buy the share just to hour build as I didn't really appreciate just how long it would take to resell (this is an AA5 so not obscure) and just how many hidden little costs there are. Luckily, I now see a more distant future in private flying for myself so I don't feel I have wasted any cash. Overall, it has cost the same as renting a club 152 for the same hours, albeit with the better availability, less hassle, more fun and more flexibility.

Regardless, my advice if the choice is share or rent, for pure hour building would be rent.

However, I think it maybe possible to form an argument for an outright purchase of a PFA type. But I wouldn't know if that is a realistic notion.

[onehunga]

Must admit that I have been tempted towards owning a share or an entire aircraft as well for hour building although haven't really done anything in the way of research.

There are a lot of pitfalls in ownership as noted above. Private flying is full of threads about tips to buying shares/aircraft etc.

A quick scan of the 2nd hand prices in the US with current forex rates make purchasing even a twin amongst a few wanabees not that outrageous an idea. Yes ferry costs etc need to be taken into a/c. Presumably leaving the aircraft on the N register would save on annual costs and also avoid any of those nasty conversion costs that the CAA imposes?

There are a lot of threads in private flying about syndicates and the general consensus as far as I can determine is that hour builders tend not to be favoured due to the fact that they get more out of the deal than they give. So my thinking is that maybe what is needed is an hour builders syndicate instead. Lots of long range trips sharing the load of the flying and seeing a bit of Europe as well. The rules of the group could be constructed in such a way that maybe you rent it out (subject to the CAA rules of course) to other wanabees when you need some extra cash at a reasonable rate and thus ensuring a win win? Of course there is a bit of an assumption here that there is a ready market of us wanabees willing to fly and pay a reasonable btu discounted rate?

Maybe also having an hour builders group would solve the problem with selling the shares at the end as you could always rent it out to other wanabees whilst trying to flick the aircraft if you actually wanted to sell in anycase. Dunno, maybe flying to the US again is easier..........

[Half a Mexican]

Mmm, lots of interesting points.

In an ideal world I would be able to keep the share, but I don’t think I will be able to afford to do so. It’s damn expensive this flight training lark…

A syndicate of wannabes sounds like quite a good idea. I’m sure it will work out cheaper that renting ‘round my neck of the woods (South East England)

I’ll definitely have to look into that.

Cheers,
--
HaM :}

[onehunga]

Hey keep me posted if you wouldn't mind. Would be interested to hear how you get on and what prices you come up with.

[bazzaman96]

HaM where you from in the South East? I'm just by Gatwick.

[onehunga]

Nice big runways there with ILS to practice on but the taxi times could eat in the flying time a bit :)

[Half a Mexican]

Gatwick eh?
That’s about 10ish miles east of my house.

As onehunga says, it’s would make a rather well equipped base for the syndicate, but I think the landing fees might just negate any cost savings… ;)

--
HaM

[bazzaman96]

We'll have to get speaking to Gatwick and see if we can get mates rates ;)

[A and C]

I attempted to rent out an aircraft to for hoursbuilding but despite the cost being 40% below the UK club rate and about 25% below the rate in the USA when you take the airfare and accomodation into account the hours builders did not beat a path to my door !.

Why ? , the aircraft is a very well maintained example with an newish radio fit and the aircraft has good avalability from a well equiped airfield but needed high utalisation to make the deal work but with online booking this should not have been a problem.

The only conclusion that I can come to is that hoursbuilders are mostly stupid and would rather spend more money flying an under maintained death trap in the USA than get a good deal in the UK.
Perhaps the hoursbuilders are so conditioned to the "rippoff UK" culture that they cant see a good deal on there doorstep.

[onehunga]

Nothing like a nicely balanced post.

A and C - are you saying that you did find an aircraft in the UK or are saying you didn't? Your post contradicts itself.

Have you been to the US? Is it not a case of get what you pay for? I can't remember seeing any "under maintained death traps" in my visits to the US but then I avoid the bargain basement and hire off reputable flight schools.

[A and C]

I am saying that I own an aircraft and I was offering to rent it to hoursbuilders at about 40% below what you would pay at a UK flying club and at below the rate that a well known american outfit that we cant mention on the forum is quoting in an advert in this months pilot magazine !.

I had a lot of bull from a lot of people but when it came to parting with the money ( on a pay as you fly basis with no money asked for up front ) very few takers despite the fact that I have had nothing but good feedback from those who have rented my aircraft.

The aircraft is still avalable BUT my business plan has changed however I could maybe fit one or two hoursbuilders in but I have had enough of the majority who are just a bunch of time wasters.

So having delt with a large number of these people that are more than happy to stump up the airfare to fly a more expencive aircraft in the USA , the only conclusion that I can draw is that they are mostly stupid !.

[Half a Mexican]

A and C,

That aircraft you own, it’s not a diesel 172 is it?

--
HaM

[A and C]

No and even if it was the cost would not be very much cheaper due to the high inital cost of the engine , however I am keeping an eye on the diesel engine options.

I have no doubt that diesel is the thing of the future but having just ordered a replacment Lycoming I wont be going deisel for another four years or so.