Close the door? [Archive]

lawnmowerman

4th Apr 2004, 21:53

I was a passenger last wek towards the front of a plane of a well known lo-co operator. I was surprised to see the plane start to move from its stand with the door still open, and crew standing next to it still shutting it. Is this usual, it sounds like a H+S issue. Should I report it as an 'incident'?

A/P Disc

4th Apr 2004, 22:06

Not a big deal. As long as it was shut during flight.
I understand that it was shut just after push-back?
Then nothing the matter.

Yellow Sun

5th Apr 2004, 06:43

Lawnmowerman wrote:

the plane start to move from its stand with the door still open

I take it that you are referring to the forward pax door (L1) and not the flight deck door. If that is the case it is at the least "not best practice".

YS

lawnmowerman

5th Apr 2004, 07:18

yes, to confirm, forward passenger door was open during push-back.

Notso Fantastic

5th Apr 2004, 07:51

Why can't it be open for a few seconds? As long as someone is there guarding the door and it is about to be closed, there is no problem. What exactly is your qualification for checking airlines operations like this? Are you some sort of self imposed 'route checker'?

amanoffewwords

5th Apr 2004, 08:11

But it does make you wonder what else they have left opened/unchecked if they are such in a hurry?

Jet II

5th Apr 2004, 08:19

Not really the smartest thing to do - the doors are rigged to be correctly closed and latched with the a/c stationary, if the a/c is moving the whole thing flexes a bit and you may not get correct locking/latching. :(

eal401

5th Apr 2004, 08:44

What exactly is your qualification for checking airlines operations like this?

Nice to see the usual contempt and disregard for people concerned with possible safety issues here!

lawnmowerman, if you are curious ask the airline, you are wasting your time asking on PPRuNe.

lomapaseo

5th Apr 2004, 13:57

lawnmowerman, if you are curious ask the airline, you are wasting your time asking on PPRuNe.

Not really a waste of time to ask on Prune. I just ignore the flames and read all the answers and possibly I can learn something also.

Open answers rather than caustic tend to calm down some of us from being foolish later.

keithl

5th Apr 2004, 14:52

NotSo - I wasn't aware that one needed "qualifications" in order to ask a simple and politely phrased question to improve one's knowledge and awareness.

Perhaps you've had a long day and we should make allowances.

And another thing...I, too, have seen CC struggling to close that door as the pushback starts. And it looked as if there was a risk of one of them falling out as the a/c moved, so I think it's fair to at least ASK if there's a H&S issue here.

Jet II

5th Apr 2004, 15:04

If your talking about 737's then there is definately a H&S issue - there have been several instances of crew falling out of the a/c as they try to shut the doors - if the a/c were moving then the possiblity of injury is that much higher, I wouldn't fancy my chances if a Tug ran over me:{

BOAC

5th Apr 2004, 16:04

Lmm - as far as 737s and similar go, it is NORMAL to check all doors closed before starting or moving. As JetII says, it can be extremely dangerous to be around an open door at that time. HOWEVER- you have not given a lot of detail and there may be a reason for it? E.g. Was it re-opened having been closed - perhaps the cockpit indications did not show it properly shut? Was there some technical requirement to have it open? Sometimes the external handle is not correctly stowed and by opening the door a little it can be. Perhaps the position of the internal handle had given some concern and the crew were re-setting it?

Certainly not normal practice as YOU describe it, but.......perhaps with more detail.....................?

Was a late passenger boarding? :D :D Got to make schedule!!

Notso Fantastic

5th Apr 2004, 16:24

Lawnmowerman's first question was fine. The threat of ..<<Is this usual, it sounds like a H+S issue. Should I report it as an 'incident'?>> ...I find disturbing and objectionable. On what basis does he speak? Did he take the trouble to ask whether the crew had to recycle the door on pushback (not unusual) or what other reason to push with the door open?

5th Apr 2004, 17:06

Highly questionable in my opinion. Before start checklist anyone? In my outfit this is completed before the aircraft pushes and includes doors shut (obviously :rolleyes: )

What if... the tug brakes hard...the shear pin snaps...the tug suddenly pushes a bit harder..... door snaps shut ... cabincrew loses balance and has hand in door frame.....big ouch. I think said Captain would be in deep sh1t.

Don't know about the flexing of the airframe but it certainly sounds plausible.

Notso .... why would you have to re-cycle a door during pushback if it has been confirmed closed and armed before pushing?

Why are some people in SUCH a hurry? A few seconds is all it takes.

A4

flt_lt_w_mitty

5th Apr 2004, 17:21

Let's hope he's just having a bad day? (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125559)

You've really gotta feel sorry for Mrs Not-so, eh? Just hope she never runs out of gas. :D

PS Wasn't him doing aeros on go-round at LHR, was it....................?

lawnmowerman

5th Apr 2004, 20:03

Hey, didnt mean to start an argument, just looking for opinions

It was a 737, and they were in a hurry, plane was 1/2 hour late.

Isnt that how some accidents happen?

:hmm:

keithl

6th Apr 2004, 11:24

Good link, Mr Mitty!

Hope you have a better one today, Notso...

Notso Fantastic

6th Apr 2004, 11:48

Lawnmowerman, nobody said you were trying to start an argument. You were looking to nail someone though:
<<Is this usual, it sounds like a H+S issue. Should I report it as an 'incident'?>>
I don't think anybody would actually push back with pax with a door open. But I can think of many times we have opened the door during push. In, say, about a thousand shorthaul flights a year, it will happen- tech log pages still unpulled, signed loadsheet still onboard, cargo manifest documents on/off, late catering supplies, briefcases left in departure lounge and many more. Many is the time I have been hanging out of the flight deck window passing things in and out- what luck nobody could see from the cabin! I had no idea people were sitting there running their own Health & Safety assessments with their fingers on the 'I'll report this!' button! Happy hunting- maybe you'll get a really good scalp oneday, or maybe you could trust to your crew to conduct a pragmatic and reasonable operation, even if they are a lo-co carrier!
It's all very well having lots of wagging fingers 'this shouldn't happen' thunderous roars, but it does. People don't open that door unless it is needed and safe. And Mr. Mitty, comment on
Mrs. Notso is slightly suprfluous don't you think? She happens to be a very happy lady and was one of those people on the ground who used to pass things up through open doors during pushback when last minute things had to be chucked in.

keithl

6th Apr 2004, 12:30

I don't think anybody would actually push back with pax with a door open.
I say again, I too have seen it done. On my last trip, in fact (March 13). The door was open, the push started with the usual lurching as the tug got under way, the CA was leaning round the side of the door (to reach a handle? I don't know) and I could see the drop to the ground. She was joined by another CA to help and this second CA was unprotected in the middle of the doorway.

Now, one hopes that the CC would report through either FS or H&S channels, but what is the well-intentioned SLF to do? He feels concerned - maybe he should do something. But what's the protocol? So he lets it go, but for future reference, he asks a question - on pPrune. Well, I call that reasonable. He doesn't deserve a blast for that.

Let me say at this point that I partly understand NotSo's concern. My outfit has suffered from stupid SLF reports such as, "The pilots were lost, they couldn't find the airport, they were twisting and turning all over the place" (really!) after a very busy bit of radar vectoring.

However, lmm didn't just go ahead and report - he asked what he should do. That's commendable. As for the answer, it's a matter of "When does a concerned bystander become an interfering busybody?" and that depends...

7th Apr 2004, 10:54

Notso:

"But I can think of many times we have opened the door during push."

I have to say I'm truly staggered at that ! I have never done or witnessed it once in 8 years of flying. Sure I've opened the DV window to throw a forgotton loadsheet - but that's always been before the aircraft has moved.

Can't see it leaving a particularly professional image with the SLF if the a/c jerks to halt and the door opens and some catering gets passed in! As said at the start, probably make the pax wonder what else has been "forgotten".

A4 :hmm:

eal401

7th Apr 2004, 11:09

Can't see it leaving a particularly professional image with the SLF

Ah, but you forget, we are just lowly, clueless SLF. Our concerns are immaterial!

Flight Detent

7th Apr 2004, 11:14

Hi all,

Doesn't the pre start checklist mention 'doors' after the start or pushback clearance is obtained.

I think all doors should be closed prior to start or push, and the g/engineer needs to check that they are properly closed during the push!

It's an unusual day, to me, that we start one (or two) engines prior to closing the L1 (or L2) door!

And certainly never push with any door not closed, as well as giving the c/crew 'the word' if any door is opened after the push is started, without Captn approval.

Cheers

Maxiumus

8th Apr 2004, 15:23

Notso:

"tech log pages still unpulled, signed loadsheet still onboard, cargo manifest documents on/off" - does your checklist not require the checking of ships papers in the pre-start checks? And if so (as it should), why would it not have been an open item if said papers were not completed? And if it were an open item, why would the push be commenced while the item was still open? And would any other items have been overlooked?
Persumably also the beacon was switched off to allow personnel to approach the aircraft...

Pedantic? I dont think so. The consequences of skipping checks are obvious to all.

Spitoon

8th Apr 2004, 16:54

The original question was quite straightdforward. Paraphrasing slightly - is it normal aviation practice? It sounds like the answer is no but there are occasions when there may be a sound operational need to do so. Is it a H & S matter? Probably, and it has nothing to do with aeroplanes - you don't find doors on the second floor of a factory that open to a sheer drop because the rules say you don't. And anyway, it's common sense - for everone's safety. Why sould aircraft not be subject to the same common sense rules where the same risks apply? Not all rules can be applied to aircraft but where they fit why not? Aircraft are just workplaces after all. When I sit in front of a radar it gets treated much the same way as a computer monitor where applicable. Seems fair to me.

Notso Fantastic

8th Apr 2004, 18:24

Maximus. Well actually- No! Several times the GE frantically asked for the Tech log pages having forgotten to pull them- not our job to check they've gone- there's usually too many other things to do. I would imagine this scenario most probably involved the GE calling the door hinges were sticking out on a 737 during the push and asking for the door to be recycled.
Whatever, the fact remains the cabin crew were quite happy to manipulate the door- they could have called the pilot to stop had they wanted. They would have wanted had they known there was a self appointed Health & Safety monitor looking to 'shop' them! I really think it has all got very academic and run its course! If a busybody wants to go around shopping people, we'd all better get ready for even lengthier delays!

SLFguy

21st Apr 2004, 12:09

Not-so-well-hung?

keel beam

21st Apr 2004, 12:36

As perhaps one of the few engineers that do pushbacks nowadays I am horrified to read that doors are some times open during a push. Before I commence a push back I check that all doors and panels are closed and confirm this to the flight crew. In the event there is paperwork still on board, the crew usually throw it down to me from the DV window, either before OR after the push. A question I ask is why didn't the cabin crew contact the F/D that they wanted to open/close the door? What happened to C/C to F/D communications? Why didn't the F/D stop the push when the door warning light illuminated?

rmcfarlane

24th Apr 2004, 16:58

I had a similar incident on a short haul, LHR - DUB flight a few weeks back. On the return leg i was in row 9, the emergency row.

After the push back was completed, and whilst the engines were still starting, I noticed that the pins which are slotted into the door to disable the slides in the event of an door opening were still in place.

This was the first flight of the day, but I would have thought during refueling and loading these would have been enabled for emergency evac.

I grabbed the attention of the no#1 and asked if "they always fly with the slides disabled". He gave me a wry grin, said of course not and within seconds there was another cabin attendant removing the pins.

I guess there can always be oversights, but if i hadnt said anything they might have done the flight with them in, although this is serious breach of practice, it doesnt nessisarilly need to be directed to the CAA.

pilotwolf

25th Apr 2004, 00:06

OK from a different perspective....

Suppose Lawnmowerman was a fellow pilot, a positioning crew member from your company, heaven forbid someone from the CAA and not 'just' SLF - you might just be defending yourself in more frightening places than PPRUNE....

Or if your wife/husband was injured or killed as a result of falling from the open door...

Would you be as quick to jump on some one for raising concerns or would you be looking for blood because no one liked to say anything for fear of upsetting the crew?

All too often it takes an accident before 'normal' practices are changed.

PW