P1 Hours For CPL Issue

[andyg]

Hello,

Just a little information which I hope someone can shed some light on.

I have been reading LASORs and I see that you need 100hrs P1 in order to have a CPL issued, 200hrs TT.

Currently I have 100hrs TT, with 68ish P1. I intend to do my training with BFC, so IR first and CPL afterwards. Which works out something like:

55hrs (IR) + 15hrs (CPL) + 10hrs (ME) + 100Hrs (already)= 180hrs.

With this I need 20hrs further in order to hit the 200hr required, if I complete all the training in minimum time. But is there any time in the IR rating which is Student PIC? If this is the case then can I use some of that time towards 100hrs P1 required?

The reason I ask is because if I cannot then I have to do another 10hrs PIC @£100/hr = £1000. Which would be a nice saving and could be put towards loan repayments... :ugh:

Secondly, I also see you can count 30hrs gliding time for CPL issue, I have 30hrs gliding time with 18 P1.... Has anyone ever succesfully done this?

If anyone has ever been through this or knows the answers please let me know.

Many thanks

Andy

[Tee]

All the IR training is Pu/t and unless you're doing all 55 hours on the aircraft and none in the sim, you won't get 55 loggable hours.

[RowleyUK]

Sorry to HI jack.......


For the 100 P1 required for CPL issue, can you use P1/s with an examiner???

Also, do you log the solo time for the PPL course as P/UT or P1??I have it logged as P/UT but in the P1 column.....i have recently been told this is wrong as i was the sole person in the airctraft and therefore it should be P1!!!


Hmmmmm....help definitely needed":{

[Port Strobe]

For solo time on the PPL course, it is indeed logged P1, this contributes towards your 10 hours P1 required for grant of the license. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong here by someone who knows more about this than me (someone who will probably be answering the original question - sorry andyg, can't help with your question), but any time you're in the aircraft yourself or the sole manipulator of the controls then you'll log the time P1 (of course there are other occasions for time to be logged P1 but my understanding is that for these occasions it would always be logged P1). Your school/instructor should be able to help you out with regard to filling in logbooks RowleyUK, just don't expect anybody to be around when it comes to counting it up! :p

[Hufty]

AndyG - you can log P1/S on successful flight tests and count it towards your 100 P1 for CPL issue, although I understand you can only include a maximum of 10 hours of P1/S time in your total. I used time logged on my PPL, IMC, CPL and IR flight tests as P1 towards my CPL issue.

Somebody told me that renewals count too (e.g. an IMC renewal).

Are you sure about gliding time? I though it was only 30 hours of self launching motor glider time (or touring motor glider, whatever that is) you could count? I might be wrong though.

Adding up all your test passes (including ME) should give you your 10 hours so you will need 22 additional P1 hours for your 100. BFC have a Cherokee 140 that you could rent while you're down there or you could hop over to the US for a couple of weeks and get it done for less.

All the best.
Hufty.

[BillieBob]

andyg - There seem to be two straight questions in your post, here are the straight answers.

....is there any time in the IR rating which is Student PIC No. SPIC only exists in the integrated courses for CPL/IR and ATPL, you cannot log SPIC for any other flying.Secondly, I also see you can count 30hrs gliding time for CPL issue, I have 30hrs gliding time with 18 P1.... Has anyone ever succesfully done this? You can count only PIC time in TMGs or gliders towards the 200 hrs flight time required for the CPL, therefore only 18 hours of your glider flying will count.

P1/s may be logged for successful Skill Tests or Proficiency Checks only where these are conducted by a CAA Staff Examiner or Authorised Examiner for the issue or revalidation/renewal of a licence or rating. P1/s may not be claimed for 'check rides', such as those conducted by a club or syndicate for insurance purposes.

[FlyingForFun]

any time you're in the aircraft yourself or the sole manipulator of the controls then you'll log the time P1 Port Strobe, that is wrong.

Any time you are Captain, you log P1.

You can be Captain but not at the controls (e.g. a flying instructor whose student is at the controls, or a B747 captain when the co-pilot is the pilot-flying). You can also be at the controls, but not be Captain (e.g. most of your training, when your instructor was Captain and logged P1).

FFF
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[RowleyUK]

The time logged as solo during the PPL:

10 hrs at the controls with nobody else in the plane.......the sole person on board.....you are pilot in command......

Is this logged as P1?

Can it couint toward the 100 hrs P1 required for CPL issue?

Difficult question i know......but what have you lot got your solo time logged as?

:{ :{ :{

[FlyingForFun]

Yes, that is P1, and yes it counts towards the 100 hours for the CPL.

(You are the Captain of the aircraft during this time. All the decisions are yours, and you are in charge. Therefore you are P1. The fact that you are a student doesn't make any difference. Simple, huh?)

FFF
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[RowleyUK]

FFF, Roger!

Out comes the tipp-ex and watch me go!!!;)

[Port Strobe]

FFF, can I clarify that at least for every time you're in the a/c yourself then it's logged as P1? In a different situation you could be sitting next to a captain and operating as PF yet he/she gets P1 because he/she is the commander? I understand what you're saying about my instructor getting P1 time despite not touching the controls, so that must be the time I'm P/UT. The reason I came out with sole manipulator of controls, depsite the fact that it rang a bell from a CAA document somewhere :ok: is for the situation covering flying with passengers at GA level, I'm not in the a/c on my own, but nobody else is touching the controls except me. Thanks for pointing that out, I'd like to reiterate that I'm anything but an authority on this type of issue, just thought that part of the question looked simple enough to answer, but that'll teach me for thinking anything to do with logging flight time is simple :D

Thanks again for the pointer. Hope andyg has his question answered, don't want to highjack his post.

[FlyingForFun]

Port Strobe,

I think you're getting the idea now. If you want the definitive answer, have a look at LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF), Section A, Appendix B. This starts on page 37 of the document (which is, confusingly, page 53 of the linked PDF file).

The only place I'm aware of that "sole manipulator of the controls" comes into play is currency for carrying passengers (three take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls in the last 90 days). Although you must be sole manipulator of the controls to satisfy this currency requirement, you don't have to be P1 - you can be PUT.

FFF
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[JeroenC]

sorry, hijack again.

Since LASORS talks language which I don't completely understand, I'll ask you guys.

My Caa Examiner told me that my successfull PPL flight test could be logged as P1. You're saying that is has to be P1/UT or something?

Now I have my PPL but am flying with an instructor in the US. It is not flying training, but merely to give me a safe feeling here in the US in class C. Is this P1?

Thanks in advance.

[FlyingForFun]

JeroenC,

The first question is very easy to answer. The answer is on page 40 of LASORS, in Section A Appendix B, which contains a table showing how to log flight time. Row J of this table covers a "Pilot undergoing any form of Flight test with a JAA or CAA Authorised Examiner" other than a test for a co-pilot. For a successful test, the holders operating capacity is "PIC U/S" (Pilot In Command Under Supervision), and the timer is entered in the "P1" column and certified by the aircraft command (i.e. the examiner). Because you log it under the "P1" column, it counts towards your P1 total, even though this is not what you write in the Operating Capacity column.

The second question is much harder - it's one of the few cases which is not covered anywhere, and the CAA will evade any questions you ask them.

Logic says that PIC U/S would work. After all, you are capable of acting as P1, it's just that you are being supervised. But according to LASORS, there is only one time you can log PIC U/S on a single-pilot aircraft, and that's a successful flight test. So that rules out the logical answer.

There are two options left to you. Option 1 is that you log P1, and your instructor doesn't log the flight at all, he is just a passenger. Option 2 is that your instructor logs P1, and you log PUT. This must be agreed beforehand between you and your instructor, because it has a big bearing on what happens, for example, in an emergency. Say the engine goes Bang while you're at the controls and you pick a field to land in.... if you are P1, your instructor might advise you that there's a better field over that way, and you may choose to take his advice, but the final choice is yours since you are the aircraft's commander. On the other hand, if your instructor is P1 and doesn't like your choice of field, he has the authority, as aircraft commander, to instruct you to use a different field, or to take the controls from you. Obviously this is not something to be discussed when it happens - you must agree beforehand who is in charge.

FFF
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[JeroenC]

Tnx for your quick response, FFF. Are you hired by pprune, or are you also waiting and looking out for jobs???? The number of posts you have, respect! And always on topic and with good intent. Keep on going!

So, as I expected, it's either me as P1 in the plane, OR my instructor? She told me we could log both P1, which I doubt.

We had not made agreements, and now I am going back to the Netherlands in a short while, so I am not going to fly anymore. She called me saying that she wanted to sign my log, but I want to log it as P1, which she told I could. So I am not letting her sign for the moment.
What's the best course of action, you think?

thanks in advance.

[clarityinthemurk]

Should a successful 170A test also be logged as P1 by the student?

[FlyingForFun]

JeroenC, no I haven't been hired by PPRuNe, I just happen to have a boring office job where I prefer to spend my time talking about flying on PPRuNe than actually doing any work! Thanks for the compliment... I'm not so sure that everything I say is 100% accurate (but I do try to make it clear when I'm not certain of something) or on topic, but thanks anyway!

The rules in the US are a little different to JAR, but even so I am surprised that your American instructor has told you that both you and she can log P1 at once. I would tell her that under JARs you can not do this, and that if she wants to log P1 then you will log your time as PUT. She can sign your logbook if she wants (American instructors like signing their students logbooks!) but it's not required under JARs. Since it is (I assume) JAR licenses that you will be applying for, you must follow the JARs even if you are flying an N-registered aircraft in the States.

Clarityinthemurk - as far as I know (maybe someone else can confirm this) the 170A test is logged as PUT. That's certainly how I logged mine. It is done with your instructor, not with an examiner, and therefore can not be logged as PIC U/S.

FFF
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