707 Too noisy for europe?

[747FOCAL]

Can you still operate a 707 into the EU? I have been told it is getting very hard/impossible for even government aircraft to operate when they are not Chapter 3. :ok:

[Boss Raptor]

Long gone - April 1st 2002 - total ban on Stage 2 unless you are military and/or carrying the Head of State (literally, not the No. 2 or anyone else) - phase out started 97

[cringe]

So did they make an exception for John Travolta? He was touring Europe with his 707 in August 2002.

[doubleu-anker]

Probably because it was a private flight and money talks.

Nothing more than that.

[411A]

I do believe that you will find that Mr Travolta's 707 is fully stage 3 noise compliant, via hushkit...you know, that bit the Euro folks don't like because they didn't invent it....:ok:

[747FOCAL]

Travolta's 707 does have a hushkit, but is the only one that has that hushkit. The certification was yanked after the methods used to certify it came into question. That is the reason there is only one 707 with a hushkit. You can't make accoustic panels by drilling holes in the hardwall panels that are there and expect them to behave like the honeycomb panels that present on commercial jets today. The only reason the FAA allows Travolta to fly his 707 in the USA is because he flys non rev. Non Stage 3 flights are allowed into the USA for repair.
:)

[ramsrc]

411A you're talking cobblers...

Loads of hushkitted aircraft flying in Europe. True we didn't invent it, but that doesn't stop us using it! :E

Some examples here...

Stage 3 One-eleven (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/056089/M/)
Stage 3 737 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/400568/M/)

[oligoe]

There are some stage 3 707s around, Air Memphis SU-AVZ, ex LOWA N88ZL, Republic Togolaise State aircraft (ex P4-tbn). They are fitted with Burbank hushkits. Travolta's 707 is definitly not stage III !

[simonp]

This should put an end to the argument
The History of John Travolta's Boeing 707-138B
Manufacture Serial Number is 18740
First Flight September 1, 1964
Deliver to Qantas Airlines September 10, 1964
Only in service for four years, put in storage on November 1, 1968
Purchased by Regency Income and leased to Braniff International on June 24, 1969
Purchased by entertainer Frank Sinatra on February 24, 1972
Purchased by the Boeing Commercial Airplane Co. in 1975
Purchased by the Atlas Air Systems in 1975
Purchased by Kirk Kerkorian on November 1, 1975
Purchased by the Tracinda Corporation March 28, 1977
Landing gear collapsed on March 28, 1977
Purchased by TAG International September 26, 1977
Leased to Sheikh Akram on September 26, 1977
Place in storage at Newark on August 25, 1981
Ferried to Le Bourget and place in storage in August 1983
Reentered service in December 1983
Purchased by Trans Oceanic Aviation in November 1987
New VIP interior installed while out of service 1988

******Modified with hush kits which converted it to a 707-138B(Q) in 1989********
Returned to service in July 1990
Purchased by Aviation Methods in 1995
Ferried to Istanbul and placed in storage on October 29, 1995
Offered for sale with a low TAT of 27,682hrs in September 1996
Purchased by John Travolta on May 20, 1998

http://www.707sim.com/jt3.html

[747FOCAL]

707 without hushkit:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/543237/L/

707 with hushkit:

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/321118/L/

Notice the difference in the nacelles......

Now one should take the word "Hushkit" on a 707 with a grain of salt. Especially when it comes to the Burbank Nacelle conversion. There is nothing quiet about a blow in door nacelle.

Very few hushkits really do nothing but spread the noise around a bit. Hushkits that also effect performance (ie. thrust required) are the only ones that really show realistic improvement.

Jet Engineering recently certified a hushkit for the MD-80. If you were to fly an MD80 by without this kit and then by with the kit nobody on the face of the planet would be able to tell the difference. Even a monitor will be hard pressed to notice any real difference.
:ok:

[Boss Raptor]

I would has at an educated guess that the reference to fitting of Hushkit to Travolta's acft. in 89 was a Comtran Stage 2 Hushkit...I stand to be corrected but as far as I am aware there was no legal requirement for Stage 3 at that time (started 95 ongoing to 2002 in EU for example, similar in US I believe) and that neither the Burbank/Quiet Nacelle S3 kits for the 707 were even in existance at that time except on the drawing board possibly (and again as far as I am aware the Burbank S3 kit does not have 'Blow In Doors' it utilises a long duct and acoustic lip/nozzles, blow in doors is the Comtran Stage 2 kit)

Whether or not a S3 hushkit makes any difference to joe public is not the issue - what is from an operators/manufacturers point of view is that legally the noise footprint is within the S3 limits for compliance

The MD80 with its' JT8D-217/219 engines is already naturally Stage 3 from design/build, the hushkit developed by Jet Engineering is actually a Stage 4 hushkit...a wonderful aircraft long may it continue :ok:

747 Focal - the Air Memphis 707 (you say without hushkit) in the picture you show is clearly fitted with the Burbank Stage 3 Long Duct Hushkit as also retrofitted to DC8-60 series. Hence as the photo caption states it is able to operate still at Ostend Airport, Belgium, the EU in March 2003.

The Travolta 707 nacelle is clearly a Stage 2 Comtran Hushkit only

Note the difference in nacelles... ;)

[747FOCAL]

Boss Raptor,

I stand corrected on the 707 Hushkit.

But, I'm gonna get you on the

"Whether or not a S3 hushkit makes any difference to joe public is not the issue - what is from an operators/manufacturers point of view is that legally the noise footprint is within the S3 limits for compliance"

Noise certification has nothing to do with the footprint, though I suppose one could assume they get smaller as the maximum noise levels based on weight and number of engines comes down. Noise certification is based on measured levels at 3 points. Takeoff, lateral(sideline), and approach.

And to say hushkits making any difference to joe public is not the issue, than why does noise certification exist? So that joe public can look forward to a future with less aircraft noise........:E :E :E

Makes no difference if you lower levels 10 dB cum like Chapter 4 did when every aircraft built today meets that criteria. With the increase in movements that will happen over the next 10 years and no Chapter 3 phaseout, joe public will think Chapter 4 allowed for more noise. :hmm:

I knew the Jet Engineering kit was a Chapter 4/Stage 3 (Stage 4 is not available for application in the USA until 2006) kit. I just wanted to point out that it really will make no difference to humans or the monitors.

Noise footprints generated by the manufacturers or the hushkitters is based on max rated takeoff power. Well, we all know every operator out there will derate to the maximum allowable unless forced to do otherwise to save on engine maintenance. When operating derated the noise footprint increases dramatically. Also on approach they use stable thrust to generate the noise footprint when most airplanes are on auto throttle. This too increased the noise footprint of any aircraft dramatically.

Operational aircraft tend to be a lot lighter when they are landing than what they were noise certified to. This sometimes can drop the thrust required into the bleed schedule (Rolls and Pratt). When a bleed opens you can double the EPNL of an engine.

Am I boring you yet? :\

When you look at it, the current noise certification requirements by the FAA and ICAO are bogus on a realistic operational standpoint. The noise certification requirements are based on a single event, when the person experiencing the noise is facing multiple events. They are not indicative of how the airplanes are flown on a day to day basis.
:ugh: :}

Peace out Boss.........;)

[Boss Raptor]

Speaking with an operators hat on I say again all I am interested in is legal compliance and not whether someone who chose to live near or by an an airport or approach/take off path is happy or not...I dont buy a hushkit to be a friendly neighbour I buy it as I have to...although some airlines may have (or claim to have) an environmental/public conscience :) but then that is another immotive/moral issue to some no doubt :rolleyes:

Agreed noticeable joe public difference Stage 1 unhushed 707 to Stage 2 hushed 707 was minimal - as no doubt will be the dif between MD80 (S3) and hushkitted Stage 4 (have been asked for a presentation at Mojave but not got round to it yet)

Fair do's double gotcha (but my gotcha was bigger than yours) :D

[747FOCAL]

Yes I will agree that was embarassing for someone who should know better.

As an FYI, since you must be close to MD80s if Mojave is calling you...... Pratt is flying their own Hushkit for the MD80 this month and with that you will get what Jet will never have and that is OEM endorsement. Remember, the hushkitters that developed the internal mixer for the JT8D on the 727 and 737 ended up with having to minus a "Q" factor to their engines. It subtracted like 4000 from your TBO.

Since Jet's tailpipe oversized the exhaust exit, N1 went up on an engine that is already at readline by Pratt's own admission. I'd be skeptical of any engine mod that did not have OEM endoresment. :uhoh:


:O

[HZ123]

A number of unapproved a/c land at LHR each weekend using Tu 154 and no doubt at other UK airports breachung the noise regs.

As with many laws the UK fails to enforce them other than providing stringent conditions for UK based airlines. I was always under the impression that the noise regs were enforceable for pax commercial flts only and that a/c such as JT's 707 plus a number of private owned a/c were exempt from the requirement but discouraged where possible.

[Boss Raptor]

EU ban is everybody excluding military and the odd special approval humanitarian flight, TU154M is a Stage 3 (if marginal) aircraft, 154B variant is not. The 'phase out' requirement covered commercial operators however.