Hillwalking to wrecks

[Genghis the Engineer]

This is I freely confess a half thought-out idea at the moment, but I'd be interested in anybody else's thoughts.

A little while ago I bought myself a copy of a small book called "high ground wrecks and relics". Subtitled "Aircraft hulks on the mountains of the UK and Ireland". It shows where there are aircraft wrecks "up in thar hills" thoughout the UK. Unsurprisingly most of the ones marked as having anything much left, are miles from anywhere in the middle of (or on top of!) some very bleak country.

It just happens that one of my several non-aviation hobbies is hillwalking, and has been for 20 years or so. I'm not a great one personally for trying to ascend huge hills just because they are there, but do like finding something interesting to do up there - for the last couple of years it's mostly been stone, iron and bronze age settlements.


So, my question to the house, is anybody interested in sometime this year maybe doing a weekend of hillwalking with a view to taking a look at some of these wrecks.


I should say that so far as I'm concerned there are two obvious issues that need to be clear from the outset. Firstly, people died in many of these wrecks, and one should act with an appropriate degree of respect in all dealings with them. Secondly, the terrain and conditions on any such trip are in all likelihood going to be severe and challenging; and I don't think this is a sensible prospect for anybody who is not an experienced hillwalker or climber capable of looking after themselves on a mountainside for several days if they need to.

All thoughts welcomed.

G

[BEagle]

Aren't unrecovered wrecks normally treatead as consectrated ground

I remember being shown the remains of a Dakota in Wales from the air during my Gnat time and was told "That is now a permanent grave".....

[Genghis the Engineer]

My understanding, on which I'd be happy to be corrected, is that the same applies as to battlefields and shipwrecks where life was lost. You may visit and view them, but not disturb them.

The book mentions the wing centre-section of a USAAF C47 visible at a spot where there had been a number of fatal crashes in the Carnedd range, which wouldn't be all that far from RAF Valley. Again according to the book, after being visible for several decades (which presumably means into the 1970) it fell into Llyn Dulyn
Llyn Dulyn (http://www.walkingbritain.co.uk/walks/walks2/w193g.shtml) . Might that be it?

G

[matspart3]

Quite a few North of the border

http://www.dalshian.freeserve.co.uk/

[TURIN]

I was browsing through my local library the other day and came across a book on aircraft wrecks in the Peak District National Park. Can't remember the name but next time I'm in I'll get it out and post the gen on here.

Would like to go on the walk but it would have to be a one nighter only.

[Dr Illitout]

Yes I'd like to do a walk too!! A on nighter like Turin and depending on shifts of course.
I have done a short (Three hour) walk up on the Pennines to a B-29 wreck that isn't to taxing either. The start is about half an hours drive from Manchester.

[Duxford_Eagles]

Turin, I think that the books that you're talking about are Dark Peak Wrecks (1 & 2) by Ron Collier. Both books ares till available, although I had to have a good search on google to find a supplier when I replaced my tattered copies last year.

Rob

[corsair]

I have an old copy of the book and visited the wreck of an Irish Air Corps Seafire which is an easy sunday afternoon walk in the Wicklow hills just outside Dublin. It was fascinating but rather sombre. The pilot was killed but the wreck wasn't found for several days although ironically it was actually on military property just above a firing range. Indeed it was only a few feet away from a W^D marker stone dated 1913 and less than 50 ft from the peak. Just a few feet higher and he'd have made it home safely

It's difficult to explain the fascination for visiting wrecks like that. The atmosphere is quite eerie and the location is always lonely. It tends to put things in perspective.

But it's also great exercise and that can't be bad.

[Dr Illitout]

O.K any body aroud Manchester up for it? Lets set a date. The walk to the B-29 starts were the Pennine way crosses snake pass (A57) just out side Glossop. Its not to strenuous, a bit boggy in places and it's not advisable to do it in poor weather.
It will take approximately three hours. The crash site it quite spectacular and there is a little monument to the crew at the site.
Looking at the calender how does April 20th grab any one?
Please post replies
Now what does Carole Vordaman say about phyisicaly meeting people you talk to on the net?:D

[matspart3]

This one I assume?

http://www.peakdistrictaircrashes.co.uk/index.htm

[JW411]

When I was a student on the Vampire at Valley in 1961 the boss of Ground School used to take us on hikes around the wrecks in Snowdonia. They were all plotted on a large scale map in the HQ of 22 Squadron so that they didn't have to scramble a helicopter every time a member of the public reported finding a "crash".

I can remember a Douglas Havoc and a Lincoln in particular. There was also a tantalising tale of a intact Swordfish which was supposed to come out of a bog every ten years or so but I never got to see that.

I think the Dakota wreck that BEagle refers to is that of EI-AFL of Aer Lingus which struck the top of Snowdon on a flight from Dublin to Liverpool (or vice versa) on 10th January 1952. The aircraft went into a bog near Llyn Gwynant pretty much in one piece. Only the tail and the tip of one aileron was visible - the rest of the aircraft was in the bog.

We were told that the rescuers had only been able to recover the body of the stewardess from the back of the fuselage - everyone else was still in the aircraft. A fence was erected around the wreckage and the land inside was declared consecrated ground.

Legend had it that the RAF had tried to get the aircraft out using a Coles crane and that the crane was now also in the bog!

I seem to remember that we walked out at a little place called Roman Bridge on the B498.

[Dr Illitout]

Yes matspart3, that the one

[BeauMan]

JW411 - I believe the A20 Havoc remains were recovered, apparently for use in a restoration project. Not sure of it's current status or location though.

On a related note, the Air Britain "Beaufighter Crash Log" contains a photograph of the tail of Beaufighter TF.X RD210, perched up in a gully on Aran Fawddwy. I'm not sure when the photograph was taken, but despite having visited the area a couple of times in recent years, I've not been able to locate it. Does anyone know if it still exists, or has this been a victim of Snowdonia National Park's clean-up policies?

[stiknruda]

I remember as a Cranwell Officer Cadet on exercise coming across a couple of wrecks in the Derbyshire Peaks, IIRC the DS, who made us walk to them said that they were a couple of F86 Sabres. There wasn't much left of them and that was 20 odd years ago.

I can also remember finding a crash site in Scottish hills but I can't remember if that was whilst at school there or later whislt doing some RAF outward bound training at Grantown on Spey.


Stik

[Tiger_mate]

I once yomped up a hill to a Snowdonia crash site. Found a camera rusted solid and buried half in a stream. Found it, smiled, replaced it with a certain self satisfaction for naving across bondu land to the correct location. It may even still be there. There is a Liberator wing spar in a stream which I believe is a long way downslope from the reported impact point along with a supercharger casting.

Now where exactly is bondu-land??

[Danza]

JW411 - I don't think that's the one BEagle is referring to, this one was on a fight into Burtonwood and crashed into the rock face above the Llyn Dulyn reservoir. There is a description of the crash in a book called 'All in days work' by David Earl. Eventually most of the wreckage fell into the reservoir. The tail section of this aircraft was recovered from the lake by a Lancashire based group back in the 70's, I've got the report somewhere. Nothing much is left at the crash site now, and would require ropes and very good mountaineering skills to get down to this dangerous site.

This area (Conway range) is a well known graveyard for all sorts of aircraft; close by there are large amounts of remains from a Whitley. I've got a full list of crash sites and locations in this area, but off the top of my head there was the Dakota and Whitley mentioned above, a Wellington, Mosquito, numerous Ansons and a few others that I can't remember (All the information is at home).

Little remains at most of the crash sites now, much has been lost either to time or taken by landowners and souvenir hunters. As far as the law goes (my understanding only) there is no law against visiting such sites (permission of the landowner might be needed), but under no circumstances should anything be removed from the sites or any digging or excavation be undertaken.

BEagle, if I can be of help with locations and information just drop me a pm.

BeauMan; the Beaufighter crash is tricky one to get to, if you look at the OS map it crashed into the rock faces on the Eastern Face of Aran Fawddwy. Most of the wreckage that is still there is in the gullies down on the face with some scattered down to (and into) the small lake (can't remember its name). I haven't managed to get to site but I have it on good authority that there is some visible wreckage left. Although I don't think any sizeable sections are left, I'd be happy to be corrected. It's in such a remote spot that I doubt that the Snowdonia park people remember it's there let alone try to remove it. Although I have heard the landowner has recently removed one of the engines and now displays it agricultural shows. :suspect:

Aran Fawddwy; this mountain also has a reputation with four separate crashes on its slopes; Beaufighter, Moquito, P-47 and P-51. There is a very poignant memorial by a farm at the base of the mountain; one of the mosquitos Merlin engines has been embedded into a concrete stand. I'll try and post some photos some time (if I can figure out how to).

Yet another edit - I don't think the picture that Genghis has linked to is Llyn Dulyn (even though they say it is), Llyn Dulyn has an impressive cliff face to it on it's northern side, rather unlike that picture. The picture is probably of another reservoir about half a mile south of Llyn Dulyn (walks away taking anorak off) ;)

[FNG]

In Cowleaze Wood, not far from the telecoms mast at Stokenchurch, just off the M40 where it cuts through the Chilterns, there is a small memorial to the crew of a Hampden, which crashed returning damaged from a operation. It’s a mournful place, where the birdsong seems somehow muted, but someone occasionally places flowers there. It puts me in mind of this poem, written in 1941 by Herbert Corby


MISSING

They told me when they cut the ready wheat,
The hares are suddenly homeless and afraid,
And aimlessly circle the stubble with scared feet,
Finding no place in sunlight or in shade.

It’s morning, and the Hampdens have returned.
The crews are home, have stretched and laughed and gone,
Whence the planes came and the Chance-light burned
The sun has ridden the sky and made the dawn.

-He walks distraught, circling the landing-ground,
Waiting the last one home that won’t come back,
And like those hares, he wanders round and round,
Lost and desolate on the close-cropped track.

[BEagle]

JW 411 wrote: I think the Dakota wreck that BEagle refers to is that of EI-AFL of Aer Lingus which struck the top of Snowdon on a flight from Dublin to Liverpool (or vice versa) on 10th January 1952. The aircraft went into a bog near Llyn Gwynant pretty much in one piece. Only the tail and the tip of one aileron was visible - the rest of the aircraft was in the bog.

We were told that the rescuers had only been able to recover the body of the stewardess from the back of the fuselage - everyone else was still in the aircraft. A fence was erected around the wreckage and the land inside was declared consecrated ground.

Yes - that's the one. The chap I was flying with (Dougie Mee - famous Valley QFI and all-round very nice bloke) did mention that it was Aer Lingus and had hit Snowdon on its way to Speke - the fence was still visible when he showed it to me (1975).

Further info:

10 Jan 1952

LOCATION: Gwynynt Lake, England(sorry- that should read WALES!)

CARRIER: Aer Lingus (Ireland) FLIGHT:

AIRCRAFT: Douglas DC-3

REGISTRY: EI-AFL S/N: 16699/33447

ABOARD: 23 FATAL: 23 GROUND:

DETAILS: The aircraft lost control in severe turbulence and downdrafts and crashed.

[Yozzer]

Snowdonia C47 Crash sites:

+=area rather then spot

24/08/42 OS Map 117 ref: 16+/46+

12/11/44 OS Map 115 ref: 698+667+
Reg 43-48473 of 27 ATG diverting to Valley from Burtonwood

2x peak district Sabre crash sites:

RAF @ Grid TM 072902

RCAF @ Grid TM 090050

Peak district B29 may actually be Boeing F-13a (PR S/Fort) grid TM 091 947 reported as being a short walk from the Snake Pass road @ "Shelf Stones". DC3 @ TM 082946 is supposed to have a fair bit of wreckage left including it cargo Jeep bits.

[AerBabe]

I'd love to come along on a trip like this, but it's been a fair while since I did any serious, regular walking. Or even serious, frequent walking! However, the 3 hour, slightly boggy walk to the B-29 sounds ok. BUT... not this month, please?
Maybe I should join the local Rambers! :uhoh:

[jabberwok]

Beagle and JW411,

I can confirm the position of EI-AFL as we stumbled across it on a trek through the glorious Welsh hills back in 1973. Approximately 2 clicks east of Llyn Gwynant in very boggy terrain.

A few weeks later we stumbled across a small, twisted yellow plate in Craig Cwn Silyn which we subsequently found to be part of a Henley. I presume it is still there.

I did have some slides of these but they are probably in a black hole in the attic.

[Yozzer]

Crashed 17/10/40
Reg: L3334
Unit:1605 Flt Target towing from Towyn

Map 115 Grid 516 502
http://www.aeroplaneart.com.au/Images/JSJ_Hawker_Henley_small.jpg

[JW411]

BEagle:

Before you get strung up I should point out that Llyn Gwynant is in Welsh Wales and not in England!

[TURIN]

Righto Dr I. I'm up for this jaunt on the 20th.

While we are at it I could show you a couple of my 'crash' sites!:O

There's no wreckage, 'cos in a Hang-glider one tends to pick up the bits and walk away head bowed!!!! Better still get someone else to pick up the bits:D

[BEagle]

JW 411 - oops, the perils of cut-and-paste from foreign websites!

Sorry - shall recite "Llanfairpwllgwyngyllgogerychwyrndrobwllllantysiliogogogoch" a hundred times in penance!

[cumulus]

Just as a matter of interest, there is the wreck of what I think is a Lancaster, near Talybont at GR SO 062 200 (map 160). Its been a few years now, so I am a bit vague on the details, but apparently they were using the reservoir to practise for the dam busters raid.

There is a memorial there now, and the plaque tells the story.