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skyman68
26th Mar 2004, 18:29
do you know anyone who failed the 14 atpl, or who had to repass all. what was the reason?
when I was at the test center, I have met few guys who have passed their exam first time,(normal! why they are back)!!!. most failed 4-5-6 exams on the 14.

I passed all by chance.

RowleyUK
26th Mar 2004, 20:28
Ive met a few people who have been on their last attempt at a certain exam having already passed the other 13!!

Some of em sat their exams the same day as me at Silsoe!! Needless to say there was a certain pungent odour in the air that day:yuk: := :yuk:

bad credit
26th Mar 2004, 23:33
I went to a ground school in the midlands and there was a guy there that sat at the back of the class farting and throwing paper at people all day long. After module one he passed one of the comms exams then went on to re-do the first module again. This time he passed the other comms exam and failed the rest...... again!
To this day the school and students on that course have not heard from him.
To clarify; this is not a slur on the school as the majority of people did very well there on both modules..... Including myself.:ok:

abracadabra
28th Mar 2004, 08:17
This is going to sound harsh, but people should absolutely not be failing '4-5-6 exams on the 14'. The subjects are not diffucult, there is just a hell of a lot of information, and if someone doesn't have the time, the resources, or the will to get their head down and pass the vast majority if not all their exams at the first attempt, they should save their money and concentrate on a different career. Of course there are sometimes slip-ups and unexpectedly difficult papers, but these should only ever result in one or two not being passed.

Whoever thinks taking several months to study for and then sit fourteen exams is hard, they're going to get a big shock when they get two weeks or even just one to both pass a type-rating ground school and do sim prep at the same time.

It's a tough world out there trying to get a job. When it comes to low-hours pilots airlines are likely to recruit: First, those who know someone or have been recommended, and second, those who did extremely well in their courses and are the least likely to present problems in training.

abra

Send Clowns
28th Mar 2004, 16:46
Abra - if you don't know anything about the subject in hand, it is better not to interrupt and broadcast your ignorance, but to keep silent and let other people who have a useful contribution to make discuss the issue. Up to 6 failed exams first time is not exceptional at all (in any school). 12 failed first time is a different case.

I give a lot of private tuition, so have known students who have been in the positions described (even the "13 passed, second time around, last attempt on one") who have gone on to get good jobs. In fact the three people who spring most quickly to mind who have received job offers or started training recently have all been required to resit some or all of the exams.

The airlines are not looking for first-time passes in groundschool. They are looking for people they can happily fly with, live with down-route and who they can train (as you would know, if you listened to the answer given by the man sitting next to me at the Flyer exhibition). These people have one thing in common: they were 3 of the most likeable students we have taught.

student-mork
28th Mar 2004, 19:17
Thanks for that, Send Clowns...I didnt exactly shine during exam time but got them all passed eventually so its good to hear recruitment isnt based on academic performance alone. Im sure that there are plenty of guys like me out there who scrape through in the end and will be just as good pilots as those who get all 14 first time. Even if i had done all 14 first time, I wouldnt be on pprune trying to belittle others who have worked their guts out so I could feel superior to them.
Abracadabra. I wanna reach out and grab ya!

scroggs
28th Mar 2004, 19:29
Abra, I don't know your position in life and aviation (your profile is remarkably uninformative), but you really are quite wrong.

I am continually amazed at the number of Wannabes contributors who claim to 'know what airlines want' from their applicants. The amount of crap spouted about exam passes, the 'right' schools, etc. would be amusing if it wasn't so bloody misleading. Please listen to those of us that have been there and got the T shirt, and not to those who are pushing theories gleaned from flight school crewroom and bar discussions.

You should even take anything your school says about airline requirements with a huge dose of salt. For a start, the school will tend to put a gloss on its own contribution to the process, but further than that: how many of those instructing you (ground or flight) have actually been airline pilots? They may be excellent instructors, but unless they've been on the business end of an airline (or military) selection process, their pronouncements about airline (or military) recruiting can be no better than received opinion.

So, let's get this straight: exam passes are rarely, if ever, taken into account by airline recruiters (though they may have some influence on some of the TRTOs' selection processes). Which school you went to is not important. All we generally care about is that you have the licence, the medical, the hours we ask for, the ability to pass the sim check, and we think we can live with you in the other seat of our office for up to 14 hours at a stretch. That, basically, is it.

Scroggs

Bealzebub
28th Mar 2004, 21:07
He is right you know ! That is exactly what they / we want !

Darren999
29th Mar 2004, 00:32
Hi All,

I read this thread with a horrible feeling in my stomach. I am just about to embark on the ATPL(H) modular course, and I am terrified of what to expect. I will say that as you get a little older studying becomes harder, academically I do struggle, but I am willing to try hard.
I have read that quite a few people are failing these exams, and are having to retake them. I'm basically throwing all my savings into these. Can anyone offer any well timed advice as to how I should attack this.
Well done to all who pass this course by the sounds of it, it is well deserved.

Darren

Send Clowns
29th Mar 2004, 18:15
Don't panic, Darren. I have taught someone who is a regular contributor here who had been in largely manual work for over 20 years and passed all 14 first time, with good marks. If you work hard and are reasonably bright then you will be unlikely to struggle too much. The students I have encountered that struggled most spent way too much time in For Your Eyes Only.

RowleyUK
30th Mar 2004, 09:30
All 14 exams are 'passable' with the right amount of work....Put the effort in and you will get the result!.......Sit at the back of class farting and dicking about then you'll struggle on the test day!

I have seen people with manual backgrounds study their neck off and go on to pass all 14!!

I have also seen people with degrees from reputable Universities go on and fail them!! Mainly because of dicking about in class!!!


Hope that helps!
:ok:

airshowpilot
30th Mar 2004, 11:28
I agree essentially with everything that Send Clowns and Scroggs have said here. I have my exams now but it wasn't easy at the time for two reasons; I had been out of studying for some time and one of the subjects kept eluding me by the dreaded 1-2% (isn't 74% a killer?!). Most of the subjects I coped very well with, but I really should have sought more specialist help at the time rather than suffering further failures by reading through the same material and giving it another shot. It really does boil down to hard work, having a good studying technique and knowing when you need that extra help. If you do fail an exam or two the pressure that you put yourself under at the time doesn't help! I’m sure that the same is true of the flying tests – not everyone gets a first time pass in their IR!!

I now recruit pilots’ worldwide and I have never asked one of them if they passed their written exams/flight tests first time. As Scroggs suggests we are interested in the licence, medical, flying hours and whether you would ‘fit in’ more than anything else. Gaining your licences is one thing, getting a flying job is another – now if someone could help me on that one I’d be grateful… Good luck everyone!

mad_jock
30th Mar 2004, 12:35
bad credit

Did said person dribble alot and have ginger hair?

If so he did a brush up course with OAT and failed them all again.

Some exams he managed to beat the laws of statistics and got less than 25%.

He has now sold all his flying gear and was last heard of using his family name to secure directorships on various companys up North.

Actually he isn't that bad, lots of things were against him from a very early age, apart from his hair colour. Once his maturity reaches double figures he may appear again but it has been explained to him that life as a career FO won't be as fun as he thinks.

MJ

RowleyUK
30th Mar 2004, 13:33
Sorry to diverge!


Hmmmmm......Ginger hair, Dribbling alot, school in Midlands, maybe an obsession with radios could be added....something fishy there!! was it early 02 by any chance?


if so said person is a prime candidate as to why money cant buy you through aviation. Lord only knows why you would want to try to!;)

mad_jock
30th Mar 2004, 14:30
Range Rover with more antenna than a TV detector van.

:D yes i think we are talking the same person.

Thank god they changed the rules on access to the house of lords.

MJ

flystudent
30th Mar 2004, 15:24
Hi all

Interesting post, I think both sides of the argument carry relevant points. Namely it's not all on academic performance but at the same time the airlines need to start somewhere.

We know certain airlines have average %'s they look for and no more than X resists, as any more than this "could", (not does, but could) show a potential training/hence cost risk for type rating days. (what abra is saying)

However get through that part of selection then other qualities are priority, can you fly and do you actually have a personality (likeable) or are you just an academic cyborg who can ace everything but has not chat for 4 hours on a flight or down route.

The unfortunate fact is I think that initial selections have to be based on something they can see, I guess that's academic performance, get through that then it's tme to shine on the other fronts. As I/abra say - if you have difficulty with the volume of information then an employer may view that as a potential risk.

Just my thoughts on the subject for what it's worth. no offence to anyone.

ta ta

mad_jock
30th Mar 2004, 15:43
I think you will be suprised how few airlines actually ask you about your ATPL results. I wasn't asked for mine when i got my current job. Or for that matter if i got a first time pass or not for my flight tests.

MJ

scroggs
31st Mar 2004, 12:08
flystudent wrote:

Interesting post, I think both sides of the argument carry relevant points. Namely it's not all on academic performance but at the same time the airlines need to start somewhere.

We know certain airlines have average %'s they look for and no more than X resists, as any more than this "could", (not does, but could) show a potential training/hence cost risk for type rating days. (what abra is saying)

However get through that part of selection then other qualities are priority, can you fly and do you actually have a personality (likeable) or are you just an academic cyborg who can ace everything but has not chat for 4 hours on a flight or down route.

The unfortunate fact is I think that initial selections have to be based on something they can see, I guess that's academic performance, get through that then it's tme to shine on the other fronts. As I/abra say - if you have difficulty with the volume of information then an employer may view that as a potential risk.


Really, flystudent? We 'know' this do we? So you'll have no trouble telling us exactly which airlines apply these criteria to direct entry fATPL candidates, I take it? This is important information; please share it with us. By the way, which airline do you work for, and how many selection procedures have you run or even attended?

Scroggs

flystudent
2nd Apr 2004, 10:21
Scroggs I have no problem sharing what I have been told. But can't help but feel your email was written in a somewhat sarcastic nature. If it wasnt then I apologise, and if it was then I trust the following will be enough to receive an apology from you as I have fully justified my previous statement.

I am an integrated student at oxford and as such am trying to find out all I can on specific airlines requirements via direct contact rather than word of mouth. I have not attened selection procedures and I am passing on the information that was given to me.

The information was first hand to me about 4 weeks ago, I had heard it before through rumour but decided to speak to one of the senior people in recruitment directly at British Airways with regards to their employment of low hour Integrated student. This is what he told me.

1. Looking for 85% + average in ground studies
2. Dont like to see more than 4-5 resits
3. Looking for a first series pass in the skill tests (first time pass, partial then pass or fail then pass)

he went on to talk about the types of individuals etc, but the above point 1-3 is what I commented on in my previous post. If you choose not to believe it that's your choice.

___________________________________________
Madjock

Yes I probably will be suprised, dont take anything for granted these days , unless of course it comes from the horses mouth as in the fact from above, which is relevant directly to BA.

ta ta

mad_jock
2nd Apr 2004, 12:24
O well its not really going to effect you then.

Chances of BA recruiting low hour intergrated students currently?

H'mm oxford say they will be providing for BA?

I think both partys marketing deptments are guilty as usual.

Looking for a first series pass in the skill tests (first time pass, partial then pass or fail then pass)

That is quite a broad spectrum of passes and is actually less than quite alot of companys who take low houred FO's direct onto jet. And I suspect that over 90% of wannabies out there will meet that criteria.

What they havn't told you about is all the real things they are looking for. And when it all boils down to it they are only reducing the numbers that they will interview.

Which is why most companys will fast track known characters who have personal references from flight crew through selection. Its more important to the companys to have nice chaps on the flight deck than stroppy prats. They are more interested on how quickly you learn in the sim and your CRM than how good your actual flying is.

Of course that is only my opinion every airline is different every Captain that takes the sim session will be different etc etc.

Its a bastard I know but you would be better to start to drink in the right pubs and get your face know at the right GA airfields than worry about getting the correct numbers. Do your very best don't aim for presumed goals which are usually not known by the company until ops suddenly says O ****** we havn't enough flight crew.

MJ

Orvil
2nd Apr 2004, 15:24
Dear All,

As usual there are people still not listening to Scroggs!!


The subject, I believe was about exam results.
I have had many conversations with real pilots about this matter, when I was a trolley dolly (they were more real then).
It usually involves drink and a "man to man" talk. What I have found out is this:

EVERYBODY FAILS NOW AGAIN!!!

I'm always surprised how many "Training Captain's" have had to do re-sits. They looked on it as part of the course!!

I was told by a very experienced Captain (who flew about everything and also worked for CAA CIB) that you had to be a survivor in this game (no pun intended!).
You have to learn to take the knocks and pick yourself up and carry on.

The issue of "what airlines look for" is abit like Rocking Horse poo!
After all the debates about exam results, type ratings, schools, Florida or bust, type of watches, firm hand-shake or not so firm hand-shake at interviews etc,.

The biggest defining factor is the:

MARKET!!

If it's tight - Astronaut
If it's slack- Barn stormers

Oh yes, don't be plonker. Like the Ox grad who decided to click is fingers on his first trip at the CSD.. CRAZY FOOL.
How we had fun with Steak, Tea, Coke. I laughed all the way to first aid kit to get Imodium.

There's my rant. Good Luck


















:D :D :ok: :ok: :D :D

PPRuNe Towers
2nd Apr 2004, 16:03
flystudent

What BA say and what happens in real life are entirely different things.

Actually, the BA recruiters appear to have forgotten how to recruit anymore and just circulate the world of gladhanding freebies these days. In February 2003 they interviewed internally amongst licenced but non flying BA staff - there was no difference between modular and integrated. Those interviewed ended up deeply suspicious that they were only being used as guinea pigs because it had been so many years since anyone had conducted a series of interviews with 'beginners.'

As I've pointed out before there is a traveling circus of airline people doing the FTO and show circuit. The marketeers cling to any phrase that handily falls from their lips.

My current favourite is that if recruiting BA would selected integrated students from one of their preferred training providers. Is there anyone in this business more that ten minutes who can name a school they haven't had contracts with?? Complete meaningless bollocks. Same with Virgin and Emirates - they don't recruit any of you. They dont ask what sort of course you did - it wouldn't cross their minds. They go to the shows so you remember them as good guys when you've got several thousand hours of jet experience.

Even those recruiting from your end of the experience scale spout this crap. Take flybe for example. Every FTO love to use their, 'we only take integrated' in their marketing material, seminars and web sites. That is not true. Working pilots repeatedly come on here and tell you it is not true but you starry eyed fools would rather listen to people taking your money that the ones who actually are airline pilots.

Back to BA - as usual rebutal invited from anyone with both a brain and an airside pass. I've got the dates, location and the names of the interviewers. They interviewed modular people. Is this clear enough for you?

Rob

scroggs
3rd Apr 2004, 17:59
flystudent. Another sucker listening to OAT and BA bollox! :hmm:

Scroggs

flystudent
3rd Apr 2004, 20:42
>>PPrune Towers

Was not discussiong integrated v's modular, agree with what you say.

>>Scroggs

I know the OATS BS when I hear it, and I have heard my fair share of it believe me, that is why I make my own enquirees nowadays. However when I speak with someone of significant standing in a large airline who has and will be responsible for future recruitment then I have to say I believe them and the information they give me (perhaps I am a fool for that).

You think the information I have been given (not from some roadtrip sales person or OATS) is BS and I dont, let's just leave it at that and agree to disagree. If I am naive for that then so be it, and if I am totally wrong then I will be the first to let you know you were correct and the information I passed on was totally duff.

Ah well there we go we have discussed on the discussion forum without heated debate...good stuff :-)

Regards & no offence intended

scroggs
4th Apr 2004, 17:15
flystudent I'm afraid this is not a matter of agreeing to disagree; you are effectively wilfully ignonring the advice of those who are in the business (and have probably been so for longer than your BA informant), and are to a greater or lesser extent involved in recruiting right now.

British Airways has not recruited any ab-initio cadets since 9/11, and they are not proposing to recruit any now, or for the forseeable future. If they ever have recruited fATPLs, those occasions have been few and far between - and I'm not aware of them. Therefore they do not have a recruiting policy for fATPLs, and therefore your BA informant was making it up on the hoof. Oxford have a vested interest in having you believe a: that your exam results influence employers and b: that you have a chance of being employed by BA. Both are bollox.

You may choose not to believe Rob and I; that is your prerogative. But do not inflate the value of your opinion to that of being able to 'agree to disagree' with us. We know what we are talking about. One day, you might also - but that day has not yet come. In other words, it's better to keep your opinions to yourself and have people think you are a fool, than to put fingers to keyboard and prove it.

Scroggs

mad_jock
4th Apr 2004, 19:41
Flystudent I can just about see you being able to have a poke at scroggs for being a graduate of Aunty Bettys Flying Club in respect to civilian training. But he has been in the civilian market now long enough to know the score and he knows what the recruiting market is like.

But not to believe Rob get a grip, do you really think he dosn't have better things to do than try and spread miss truths to wannabies. The more wannbies throw back GOOD advice back into faces of these very experenced people the more they won't be bothered answering wannabies questions.

If you had been to a bash you would realise that there are BA line Captains as moderators on PPrune. Do you really think if rob or scroggs where talking crap they wouldn't have a wee word and correct them?. Or even the fact that there are quite a few known ppruners are Chief Pilots of various outfits? Some are seen in wannabies occasionally.

The moderators and other working pilots are all for wannabies, they don't like it when wannabies are getting mislead by either the schools or the companys into spending money with out good reason.

So why on earth should you believe some person from BA who dosn't fly who might have a slight input into the administration of pilot recruitment which they havn't done for 3 years so are proberly still got the same briefing sheet, but no actual input at all about the requirments or personalities required. Thankgod BA use to have line pilots doing the final interview. Its the chief pilot and the ops manager who decide whats needed then they tell the admin.

Or of course you could believe the pilots who have been there done that and got the job who sit in the sim every 6 months with the people who actualy make the calls. Who ask us where we got our training from. Do we know anyone decent etc etc.

So wind your neck in, if you don't like a reply i suggest you keep your thoughts to yourself. These guys will get pissed off giving there knowledge for free, just for it to be thrown back in there face by someone who struggles to keep straight and level on instruments. It might not bother you when they can't be arsed anymore because you think your right (when actually your talking ****e) Its the 1000's of other wannbies who have lost out on 100's of combined years of commercial aviation.

MJ :confused:

chris
4th Apr 2004, 21:19
Scroggs and others who are getting the hump with flystudent. Dont get the hump because someone has an argument with you about your advice! It is not an insult as has been implied by others here! If it is, it is only one persons opinion in how many thousands of ppruners? Most people with a brain would take that advice with a pinch of salt and believe it when they see it! Anyone who looked at the name PPRUNE would see that this is after all a 'Rumour Network'.

Its not going to stop me sending a 'hit and hope' CV to BA on the off chance I have the right stuff (knowing full well I dont at the moment!).

Scroggs and Rob. There are thousands of ppruners out there, myself included who appreciate and listen to your advice carefully! You obviously spend a lot of time moderating this forum and giving advice. IT IS APPRECIATED! keep the good advice flowing.

Flystudent, send in a CV! Its not going to cost more than 50p!

scroggs
4th Apr 2004, 21:31
Chris, listen son, if sending a CV to BA makes you happy, you go ahead. Read Rob's and my advice to flystudent again, and remind yourself what this thread is about. Remember? Passes at ATPL ground exams, and who gives a flying **** about how many failures you have? This is nothing to do with who you send your CV to.

But while you're about it, how about sending one to the Presidential Flight at Andrews AFB? I believe they may be looking for fATPLs along with BA :rolleyes: :hmm:

Scroggs

Someone find me a wall to beat my head against; I think this one's broken.

redsnail
4th Apr 2004, 21:41
Have mine Scroggs, it's well used. :hmm:

Send Clowns
4th Apr 2004, 22:40
It is hard for me to throw my advice into the arena here, as I work for an FTO that only provides modular training, and have worked for another so might be considered biased. However I am also a "wannabe", in that I still would like to fly commercially outside flight instruction, but have the experience of working in the flight training system, and know a lot of people who have gone through ATPL training.

I would say that one thing I have never regreted is training on a modular course. In fact some of you may have seen me express my irritation at that FTO that tried to sell me a JAA integrated course which I think was absolutely the wrong course for me. I did not know the system at the time, yet they never explained to me that they could offer me a modular course instead. They only talked integrated. In my opinion this is poor value to any self-sponsored student, but to try and push it at someone with 180 hours fixed-wing was ridiculous. This was pure marketing for the company involved, not for my benefit at all.

Can you persuade me that the marketing departments of these schools are no longer doing this, and are now selling the integrated courses because that is genuinely in the customer's interest?

chris
5th Apr 2004, 21:39
This thread has now degenerated!
Scroggs,

Ask yourself one question. If you were employing two pilots equal on all fronts but one pilot had 80% AVG with a few resits and a few partials and another pilot had 90% pass rate and no resits. Who would you pick. Would you pick the second one? If you would, why wouldnt you take the first and better of the two? This is basically what you are saying companies do.

Remember? Passes at ATPL ground exams, and who gives a flying **** about how many failures you have?

The point is, you are wrong (or nieve) when you say companies wont take pass rates into consideration or to use your terms wont 'give a flying **** about pass rates' . If they didnt then they wouldnt be making a full assessment of a persons abilities as both an academic and a pilot (beyond what they are as a person which goes without saying). Having said that it would be equally as bad if companies used pass rates as the sole basis that they chose pilots on as flystudent has suggested and for which you so delicately put him right.


Really, flystudent? We 'know' this do we? So you'll have no trouble telling us exactly which airlines apply these criteria to direct entry fATPL candidates, I take it? This is important information; please share it with us. By the way, which airline do you work for, and how many selection procedures have you run or even attended?

If you are so well qualified, Can you say with certainty that every single company in the uk DOESNT use pass rates as an initial tool to weed out pilots? Or as a tool to determine the better of two equally capable candidates.

Before you ask, im an fatpl, no airline experience and I do not work in recruiting and yes, these are my personal opinions.

Shoot me down for having them if you wish and deny others the freedom to decide if they have merit. Or, give your side to the story, give constructive criticism and equally let us decide if your argument has merits.

One last thing, Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. Coming from a moderator is even lower. If a forum cant be used to express opinions and ideas (or rumours as the name PPRUNE includes) then what can it be used for. Your last few posts have been an insult to both my intelligence and the other readers that were trying to get something out of this thread.

Help if you want to help. Sarcasm doesnt help.

If you dont want to help those of us that are striving to succeed in the tough world of aviation then stick to kicking people out that use swear words. You will probably take this as an insult but it is actually constructive criticism. There is a difference.

Chris.

P.S. Who moderates the moderators?

Send Clowns
5th Apr 2004, 22:02
Chris

There is no such thing as "equal people". You are using an analogy that makes no sense at all, one that is known to be flawed. It has been pointed out that most companies will not even know which got the higher grades, as they don't ask....you are wrong (or nieve [sic] ) when you say companies wont take pass rates into consideration...

... ... ...

...im [sic] an fatpl, no airline experience and I do not work in recruiting...How can these two statements come in the same post, aimed at challenging the advice of someone who has airline experience and does work in recruiting? I would not claim to know enough for a definitive statment, even though I probably know a lot more than you, having been employed in professional aviation training for about 3 years. I would however say that my experience is in line with Scroggs, especially recently knowing 3 people who have been accepted with an airline. One of the two with definite start dates, rather than being pooled, failed one series of groundschool exams, had to sit all 14 again and came perilously close to failing a second series. I would certainly defer to Scroggs's experience over my own.

mad_jock
5th Apr 2004, 22:22
The point is, you are wrong (or nieve) when you say companies wont take pass rates into consideration or to use your terms wont 'give a flying **** about pass rates'

He isn't wrong!!!! Its you thats nieve.

Many do care about the IR being a first pass.

A few care about the cpl being a first pass.

I haven't yet heard of anyone being asked about ATPL exams. They are universally looked apon as a pain in the arse which you have to do to get your license and they have little or no use depending on the subject on your day to day working life. End of story. If you want to not believe the commercial pilots who post fair enough but in a few years you will find that they we wern't wrong or you will be still unemployed.

Why the hell should we tell you thats something dosn't matter when it does. You still haven't worked out that flying a multicrew plane has got sod all to do with flying skills (which you need a base level thats it) or technical knowledge of super sonic flight and the like. Its all to do with the person. You can have a 100% pass rate in the ATPL's and first time passes in everything and you still won't get a job if people don't think you could work on a flight deck as a team with another pilot. End of story.

And why would danny want to moderate scroggs for telling you the truth and putting up with childish tantrums when you are talking crap and he tells you so?

MJ

And in relation to your question about choosing between pilots I think most companys would be looking at the additional information section of your CV to see if you play team sports or have a different hobby. So the guy who plays water polo or scuba diving will be taken instead of the guy that lists reading, stamp collecting or nightclubing. Or has done a decent job in the past ie Burger King technician versus ops monkey or a dispatcher.

scroggs
5th Apr 2004, 23:36
Chris, well I think I've now heard it all! Chris, do you turn round to your instructors and tell them they're naive when they express an opinion (borne of experience) that you disagree with? Please don't try and employ the logic of your limited knowlege when you tell me to: Ask yourself one question. If you were employing two pilots equal on all fronts but one pilot had 80% AVG with a few resits and a few partials and another pilot had 90% pass rate and no resits. Who would you pick. Would you pick the second one? If you would, why wouldnt you take the first and better of the two? This is basically what you are saying companies do.

Chris, this is not an intellectual thrust and parry. It is not a test of your logic against mine. I am telling you what happens. You can choose to disbelieve me if you wish, no doubt backed by the sales talk of the school you attend, but you have no evidence to tell me I'm wrong - or naive!! You'll note that no school has piped up here to disagree with me and Rob (Pprune Towers), who both have considerable experience in airlines and in recruiting. Perhaps you'll enlighten us all with your extensive grounds for denying our experience?

I will tell you which of your examples I would recruit: the one that impresses me most in the interview, and in the simulator. There are no equals in selection; I am only interested in your exams insomuch as they tell me you're qualified to turn up. Your performance in the interview and in the simulator is what gets you the job. What possible motive could I have for telling you anything other than how it really is? I have nothing to sell.

Tell you what; when (if) you get your first interview, tell them they don't need to talk to you or see you in the sim; they can tell all they need to from your exam results. Can't they?

Scroggs

flystudent
6th Apr 2004, 07:25
Oh boy this has turned into a can of worms !! not the intnetion I had when I sent the reply. I would like to ask a few questions of the people who have shot me down in flames.

to quote myself earlier:

We know certain airlines have average %'s they look for and no more than X resists.........
.....However get through that part of selection then other qualities are priority, can you fly and do you actually have a personality (likeable) or are you just an academic cyborg who can ace everything but has not chat for 4 hours on a flight or down route.

If you read my original post it states that results could be looked at as a primary point. Then other skills are what drives it.
can we agree on that ?

So then, to those of you who work in recruitment - Are you telling me that every CV that comes through the door of an airline does merit an interview ? surely there must be some form of selection prior to even going for a sim check or interview or tests ? Otherwise these places would never see the end of people coming through the doors ? Please divulge as I am very curious. Bearing in mind that all the selection crietia you have said that carry weight (and I agree on that as per my quote above) can't be established from a piece of paper.

to quote you in an earlier thread scroggs So, let's get this straight: exam passes are rarely, if ever, taken into account by airline recruiters (though they may have some influence on some of the TRTOs' selection processes). (rare meaning sometimes, no ?)

The whole Modular vs integrated thing is sneaking in here again, I have met a lot of mods and integrated and all equal in my eyes so lets leave that for another thread.

Scroggs it really does suprise me that you are willing to tear me to bits regarding some advice I have received from a real person in an airline responsible for recruitment. You are happy to say that they must be a junior who bascially doesnt know their arse from their elbow and its all PR. Does that not seem a little harsh ? to form an opinion without knowing all the facts that have been presented to me?

I really cant be arsed with that bit as it's like pi**ing in the wind with you "established lot" with people who know best and wont hear anything else, especially if its from a junior ( they possibly couldn't be correct!!)

I have taken a lot from Pprune over the years and when I try and put something back it appears that becasue I am not in the industry or not in recruitment and junior then my view is worth jack. Ah well better get used to it as this is what some captains are like by all accounts.
______________________________________________
>>Madjock re your post above to me.

I am not having a poke at scroggs, never have, though his sarcasm is a little trying. I am astonished more than anything that someone can be so judgemental without even knowing me. If you read all of my posts all have been civil, and there is a difference of opinion.

I appreciate the inputs from most people on pprune however when they feel they can judge a less established poster becasue they disagree with something then that's a shame.

To quote you
The moderators and other working pilots are all for wannabies, they don't like it when wannabies are getting mislead by either the schools or the companys into spending money with out good reason

I agree its not good to post misleading information that could influence people to part with good money, I havent done that, if you think I have show me where ? I will retract it.

(when actually your talking ****e)
I'm, speaking sh*te ? a little harsh. You dont know me from Adam or where my facts have come from but you are willing to sling mud like that... shame
______________________________________________
Just to clarrify where all this has come from.

I think ground school marks have a bearing you guys dont (though scroggs did say earlier they do sometimes)

I said if they are looked at it may be as an inital thing prior to attending test interviews where personality counts etc

I mentioned some items I had been told by someone in BA and you lot tell me its BS and my contact is F.O.S.

Madjock you tell me to stop upsetting established posters by disagreeing with them, it a "discussion" and I hope they see it as that and nohing more.

no offence to anyone
and sarcasm and mud slinging not required

mad_jock
6th Apr 2004, 08:43
Are you telling me that every CV that comes through the door of an airline does merit an interview ? surely there must be some form of selection prior to even going for a sim check or interview or tests ?


We are getting there. Yes if you have the required legal licenses everyone should be up for interview. But the econmics of interviewing 1000's of wannbies stops this occuring. They have to put limits in to cut the numbers down to something they can manage. It can be really daft things like the next 40 CV's through the door which are OK. The previous 6 months of CV's just get dumped. Only look at the postcodes surrounding the base. When they shuffel them into a pack the ones that stick out the top etc etc.

This isn't a debate about modular or intergrated the same applies to both as these days employers don't look at if you were modular or Intergrated. You have a license and thats it box ticked. MCC another box ticked. Current class 1 box ticked. Current SPA-IR box ticked. So you now have all the boxes to start a type rating. Which is why you stick that stuff at the top of your CV.

Then its education, previous jobs, hobbys, and also other factors which they shouldn't look at like if you are single or not and age. And all the things mentioned are at the whim of the company.

The whole business of getting your CV selected is more luck than design. Unless you can get yourself in with the company by knowing line pilots who put a word in for you.

And every comapany is different which is why its a complete waste of time banging out 100's of CV's all with the same covering letter. Each letter and CV must be tailored for the company.

The time to worry about what BA want is when they start taking on low houred pilots again. They will then decide what the current requirments are to filter the responses. But to be honest when they do start recruiting again there is enough supply of high hour jet drivers to satisfy them intially while thy decide what they are doing with the low hours guys. Its going to be years before they are recruiting low hour pilots again. The good thing about this though is there should be spaces occuring in other companys.

I don't really know why everyone is so set on BA anyway. From what I heard about the current T&C's of the last batch that went through its not particulaly well paid with a ****e pension and you have to live in the SE which is highly expensive and a list for command which is 10-15 years long. And you have to put up with the various union mafia which effect most trades on the ground and in the air.

MJ

scroggs
6th Apr 2004, 09:34
flystudent this is not about you personally. I'm sure you're a decent chap but, as I said to Chris, this is not about logic or what some chap from BA (who are not recruiting, and have not for 3 years) says, it is about what actually happens.

When I said in an earlier thread that it is 'rarely, if ever, that employers look at exam results', that's exactly what I mean. It is very rare. Sure, there may be some recruiting campaigns run by a young bloke who himself doesn't have the experience to select pilots by real ability and personality, and decides that exam results will have a bearing, but please believe me when I say this is very rare. Now, are you going to base your efforts to get a job on the tiny minority of employers that might work that way, or on the methods of the vast majority?

As for your BA contact, it really doesn't matter what his seniority is. BA are not recruiting, and will not be recruiting for some time to come - and they won't be interested in fATPLs anyway. So why take any notice of the man? He could have said that they would only take people with purple skin and three legs for all the relevance it has. In any case, BA have traditionally recruited only ab-initio cadets (ie people with no flying history) or those with considerable experience behind them (direct entry pilots from other airlines and the military) - one group has never done the exams; the other has forgotten about them. Can you not see that the BA man is only doing a PR job, and is not seriously involved in garnering new pilots? He only wants to remind you that they exist, and to indicate that their standards are high. The only way you are going to get to BA is via another airline - so forget what the man from BA said.

The reason I am 'taking you to bits', as you put it, is not that your 'view is worth jack', it is because what we are talking about is not a matter of opinion, it is a matter of fact. I know the facts; you don't. Simple, really, :rolleyes: Do you always swear that black is white when arguing? It's a fruitless path to take! And, in this case, it seriously risks misleading other wannabes - that's why I take such issue with you.

Also, please do not assume that you know or understand what a CV must contain in order to get an interview. Consider this (apocryphal) story: DFO waltzes into his office one day to be confronted with the usual pile of 100+ CVs. He takes the top 50 and puts them on his desk for later perusal. He dumps the bottom 50 in the bin, saying, "We don't need unlucky pilots".

If you think that's unlikely, you really haven't understood a word I'm saying to you!

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that you shouldn't work hard for your exams. One of the required qualities of a pilot is that he or she should work as hard as is reasonably possible to achieve the highest standards, but another, more important quality is that they should be able to prioritise and put the most effort where it will do the most good. You should concentrate on your weak areas, and be happy with a full set of passes, if you achieve that, but you should not worry overmuch if you drop a few; it won't matter in the long run. As for the relevance of the exams, I did mine after 22 years as a professional long-haul pilot in the RAF. I needed exactly the same groundschool course as you guys, because I needed to learn how to pass these exams. I had more than enough knowlege, but the exams don't test real-world knowlege, they test an artificial world which exists only in the minds of the JAA. That is one of the main reasons why employers don't give a stuff about them. Like me, you will forget everything you learned for the exams the minute they're finished, and then you'll get on with the job of learning what you really have to know.

Now, the modular vs integrated debate (which I did not raise): there is no difference in the qualification you achieve, and no significant difference in the training required to achieve it these days. Most employers are aware of that, and ignore your course, school etc. There are a very few dinosaurs still around that equate integrated with '509' and modular with 'self improver', and thus state a preference for integrated graduates (if you don't recognise '509' or 'self-improver', you'll understand how out of date they are!). These genetic hangovers are disappearing fast, and you should not let the few that still exist influence your decision as to where to train - they will be gone soon, or at least will have learned a bit more about the current system.

Scroggs

redsnail
6th Apr 2004, 11:26
Never been asked to show my exam results, never been asked about resits for theory exams. They only want to see my licence when I turn up for the interview.
About the only relevant question is did I get my IR first time attempt. Also been asked about any accidents and incidents.
Any one who says that you'll be asked about your exam marks at an interview is selling you a line I'm afraid.
Exam grades mean you can study, the licence means you can apply that. Not every one can do that...

Concentrate on getting good grades, in other words, do put in the effort. The reason isn't why some salesy type people tell you.
If you haven't twigged already, you're being watched and assessed all the time. Ideally, you want the instructor to say to you, "if you need some advice about "x" airline, I'll put in a word".
That is real. It's happened to me more than once and I am not a naturally gifted person. Just one who works bloody hard and helps out my colleagues when I can.
If you're not a whip and can "only" average 85% or something but you're busting your guts out and trying your hardest then that means a heck of a lot more than a smart arse who gets 99.9% and is a smug **** about it.

Send Clowns
6th Apr 2004, 11:38
Reddo puts it so well, in her usual subtle style :p

NM163
6th Apr 2004, 12:37
I'm about to start the route to the Frozen ATPL. I've been out of formal education for just over a decade, but that time I've interviewed and employed around 600 people. Whether they have failed an exam or whatever makes no difference if they have subsequently gone on to pass it. The candidate realized their mistake and corrected it to eventually pass, could have been distracted by home/personal circumstances. Those who didn't correct it demonstrated a lack of application and didn't get an interview.

There are a lot of posts in these forums from wannabes wondering what the job market will be like, will they find employment. Quite rightly too given the financial investment required. No one has a crystal ball to make a statement in that regard, but if you don't have the licence and the market improves, all you can do is continue to dream. Passing the exams is part of the license, nothing more than a part.

My understanding from BA, and it is from a source that I would trust is that integrated ab initio pilots for BA.......only through their cadet scheme. Modular low hours pilots, well, last in a very long line comes to mind. As for low hours pilots in general, whenever they have recruited they have had more than enough applicants with sufficient hours to meet their requirements without dropping below 1500 TT by which time it doesn't matter which FTO you come from, whether you passed you atpl first, second or third time. It will matter, as MJ posts that you meet their minimum requirements, MCC/ME time on heavy aircraft and even then you'll need luck and to sell yourself to meet their needs.

Profiles and post histories, as well as chat and PM can and give you an indicator of whose opinion you should be countenancing but this should be in conjunction with your own research. But your research should extend outside of the school and its seminars.

That's my two cents anyways.

Would love to see CRM brought into this thread. :)

Danny
6th Apr 2004, 14:43
To those of you who are insisting that written exam pass rates MAY have some influence in selection and are still arguing the toss with Scroggs or anyone else who has the T-shirt, I would politely suggest you desist. None of the airline pilots I know have ever been asked about their written exams.

If you want to mention your pass rate in your CV then feel free to do so but remember that your CV should only be one single page with only RELEVANT information on it. Anything more than the minimum necessary info and you are likely doing yourself out of an interview. Remember, all you need to do is show you have the minimum requirements for a job you are applying for. If you have provided excessive info then why should they bother asking you for interview when most of the questions may have been answered.

Once you get to intervew, if you are fortunate enough, then you can sell yourself and your incredible prowess at passing multiple choice exams on subjects, the majority of which you never really needed in the first place. If you want to let the interviewer know that you are an 'ace of the base' at information retention then fine but you must realise that ground school for a type rating is not quite the same as studying for the fATPL exams.

As an aside, I am now in my 5th airline job. The previous four I worked for had all at one time or another rejected my application. I have a ring binder with rejection letters from many airlines but the best are the ones from companies that eventually employed me. The biggest problem for some students appears to be the attitude that it doesn't really matter if they fail a few exams. It is that attitude that is more likely to bring them down in the long run. Whilst it doesn't matter to the airline recruiters, it should matter to the individual in that it will mean extra cost and time. If you do not go into the study witht he aim of passing everything first time then perhaps you shouldn't go in at all. It is that attitude that is more likely to cause you problems if you do get accepted by an airline and then you have the pressure of studying for your first complex type rating.

The moderators may show exasperation at times and that is perfectly understandable when you read some posts on here about 'knowledge' of what actually happens from 'my mates mate'. It is all part of the 'banter' you are likely to experience once you are in an airline job and if you feel hurt by some of the expressions made here, then perhaps you may need to re-evaluate your 'suitability' to cope with the CRM aspects of the job.

flystudent
6th Apr 2004, 15:31
Gents & ladies

Todays posts on this thread I have found to be very informative without being rude, which is great. I appreciate the replies and wish you all the best for the future.

thanks for taking the time to reply.

Regards

flystudent

Jeffrey S
6th Apr 2004, 16:09
its funny how you wannabees dont listen to the FREE advice given by scroggs, danny, rob and mad jock and just throw it bck in their faces.

some of you come accross as stuck-up public schoolboy boffins who think that grades are the main thing, but your attitude and personality count as well but if you wont listen to the people who know your not going to get anywhere.

if the moderators say that the airlines rarely ask for exam grades, then they are RIGHT.

dont teach granny how to suck eggs!

its no suprise you lot are not getting jobs you sound stubborn, unwilling to listen. this time last year i worked for a large engineering company but now i own my own business with my own employees. and i wouldnt want to hire people with your attitude let alone work with them

nothing personal, just show humilty & learn to listen to the people that know!


excuse my grammar.:\

flapsnslats
6th Apr 2004, 18:16
Gentlemen
.I have been following this thread with interest.
A good friend of mine went the modular route in britain.Then got his instructors rating and 600 hrs later got a sim check with British Airways.He passed and next thing he knew he he was flying the 146 for british airways.You say have the minimum hours but he didnt.I also know someone who walked out of flying school In ireland where Im from and got the right seat of an atr.
You can say the element of luck was there but these two people did not come near the minimum requirements but still got work.
With a regional airline and an international airline.
Could the senior guys out there through light on this.

redsnail
6th Apr 2004, 19:20
Flapsnslats,
I know a bloke who had a total of 700 hours when he got into Qantas. Most have thousands of hours.
Perhaps you could ask them just how they did it and follow their path.
As I have found both here and Australia you'll always find those who seem to have a dream run. I have always hoped I would have a dream run but planned on doing it the hard way.
BTW, it's poor form to address posts with "Gentlemen"... :confused:

silverknapper
6th Apr 2004, 19:23
Can't see what light there is to throw, you said it yourself. Right place right time is one of the things that it boils down to.
If anything this highlights to the prats who rattle on about integrated being so much better that it really doesn't matter a damn. Sorry guys but you were sucked in by the sales crap - finally admit it.

chris
6th Apr 2004, 19:27
I have to agree with flystudent. All the previous posts dating back to mj's last post have been informative, extremely helpful and exactly what I was talking about. With the exception of Jeffery S.

Scroggs, I will reneg on what I said previously with regards to exams because you have made a valid point now and I can see where my argument has been flawed. That was all I was after. A decent reply explaining where myself and flystudent were going wrong. Thankyou.

As for Jeffery S,

some of you come accross as stuck-up public schoolboy boffins who think that grades are the main thing, but your attitude and personality count as well but if you wont listen to the people who know your not going to get anywhere.

Re read my previous post and then rethink your quote. I wasnt being arrogant. I wasnt being disrespectful to scroggs or any of the other expert contributors. I was asking for myself and others to be replied to in an appropriate fashion when I threw my 10p into the hat. Ie no sarcasm. Scroggs's last few replies are exactly what I was trying to achieve. An accurate, well backed up post that I can now apply to the way I prepare myself for interview.

if the moderators say that the airlines rarely ask for exam grades, then they are RIGHT.

We have already ascertained that scroggs and others are right in this respect but do you always listen to what people say and never ask questions. If someone doesnt ask questions or sometime question the meanings behind an answer, will that person ever learn anything. If your mate tells you to jump off a cliff, would you blindly do it like you are suggesting here? Again, flystudent and I werent being disrespectful by questioning scroggs and others we were merely trying to clarify information that to us seemed strange or contrary to information we had.

.i own my own business with my own employees. and i wouldnt want to hire people with your attitude let alone work with them nothing personal, just show humilty & learn to listen to the people that know!


Now if you want the arrogant public shool boy in me to come out then here he is! I have spent the last 6 years in tertiary education have never failed a univerisity exam, flying exam (including ICAO) or flight test (3 and counting). The reason why is because I work my arse off, always ask questions and expect a decent answer.

"Nothing personal" but I think you are completely misinformed and you are definately the type of person that I would not like to work for. You are implying then that you dont like employees that would be willing to push the boundaries by asking questions and furthering their careers and knowledge. How happy are your employees by the way, do they have the chance to express themselves or dont you ask? I wouldnt put money on it! I think you best re read the entire thread and put what I have said in context.

Get your facts straight before you start slagging people off. And judge people when they come face to face with you.

Once again, thanks scroggs, mj, rob etc for todays replies.

james brown
7th Apr 2004, 15:28
Don't worry guys, just worked out who Chris is - been on groundschool course with him, hes like this with everyone - questions absolutely everything. It's not personal!

chris
7th Apr 2004, 21:17
j.b , check your pms mate

zatszesing
10th Apr 2004, 11:37
Whilst i have read some very good points on both sides of this argument, i think that i would have to lean to the side of abra on this one. It is all very well saying to people who are about to throw all of their savings at becoming a pilot, that it is an easy thing to do. The reality is quite different. The amount of money, students are expected to pay for ground school alone puts other proffessions into a different league. This coupled with the remarkably selective nature of the industry at the present time means that airlines are firmly in the driving seat, and given a pile of CV's through their office every day, why would they settle for anything less that the best??? It is all very well to say that brilliant academics may not make the best pilots, and that airlines want good characterful people to be pilots, but believe it or not, the two are not mutually exclusive. There are very smart people who pass exams first time who are perfect characters for being pilots. It is these people who will get their foot in the door first and it is unwise to delude yourselves otherwise.
Before embarking on a career in aviation, everyone should do the research. You are spending a mortgage worth of money and if you are not careful you will end up with nothing to show for it. This website seems to love to tell the fairy tales of people who have scraped through on their last sitting and still have gone on to have star studded careers. They do not seem to warn people about the vast majority these days who end up with frozen ATPL's working at the call centre with British Gas!
Good luck to anyone who is going for it, just remember... Study Hard!!!

scroggs
10th Apr 2004, 17:30
zatszesing I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point? Are you subtly trying to tell Danny, Rob, Reddo and myself that we're wrong? On what grounds? Your experience over ours? Then please illuminate us with your vast experience.

If all you are trying to say is that students should work as hard as they can; well, that's been said many times here. Nevertheless, you should all understand that your exam results will have no bearing on your chances of employment. Period.

Scroggs

BigAir
11th Apr 2004, 00:42
I don't no why I feel compelled to post on this topic, as i will surely be cut down by someone, but here goes...

The best Posting IMHO on this topic is that by Danny -

"The biggest problem for some students appears to be the attitude that it doesn't really matter if they fail a few exams. It is that attitude that is more likely to bring them down in the long run. Whilst it doesn't matter to the airline recruiters, it should matter to the individual in that it will mean extra cost and time. If you do not go into the study witht he aim of passing everything first time then perhaps you shouldn't go in at all. It is that attitude that is more likely to cause you problems if you do get accepted by an airline and then you have the pressure of studying for your first complex type rating"

I think this really sums it up, although I would maybe extend this to say if you get good passes it MAY (note MAY) give you more confidence (depending on your individual personality) in an interview situation as you wont in the back of your mind be thinking "I hope they don't ask me about groundschool" etc, maybe not - who knows...

I think people should worry less about how they are going to do in exams, and just get on and do them. If you don't do so well, but have a reason that would explain it (family problems, long time since previous study etc) in case it got asked at interview then you are okay. If you don't work and get poor results, then you should be having a word with yourself in the corner about if this is what you actually want to do.

These exams are a pain in the backside yes (I know as I am just finishing off my last few subjects), but once they are done they are done and probably not going to haunt you with the exception of a very tiny percentage of people who might just go for a position/TRTO scheme where they are asked....

BigAir

scroggs
11th Apr 2004, 09:58
The suggested BA recruitment of self-sponsored students appears to be no more than a rumour that has caught on occasionally here. BA are not confirming that any such program is in place or proposed, but I will be intrigued to learn more if any facts become available. If they were to insist on integrated graduates with 85% exam pass rates, it would suggest that their current recruiting staff are the 509-influenced dinosaurs I referred to in an earlier post! As yet, we have no proof of that...

Now, BigAir, I'm sure your Dad was a great (British Airways?) pilot, and I'm sure he has some influential mates, but that association does not make you 'as qualified as Scroggs'. It may make your Dad, or some of his mates (if they are currently involved in recruiting), as qualified as me, but not you. My Dad was a great fighter pilot and very senior officer in the RAF, but that does not give me the knowlege or right to speak from his perspective, or with his authority. I speak from my own knowlege and using current connections within the industry who are aware of how important it is that I give correct information on this forum.

Scroggs

bazzaman96
19th Apr 2004, 14:51
You're going to have to excuse me, speaking as a bit of a beginner.

Firstly, it's been discussed on these forums that employers are more concerned with whether you've got the type ratings and flying exams in the bag - not where you got them, or with whom.

But: would employers notice the standard of your pass? Or do you not get a 'grade' as such? If, for example, you passed your exams with, ahem...'flying' colours, would this place you in an advantageous position over someone else?

I'm just curious...am yet to take any exams.

Secondly, there are quite a few people on these forums from overseas (I'm guessing this is a UK dominated site, judging by the posts). As outrageous and far-fetched as this seems, what is the employment situation like in other parts of the world? Would it be desirable (it's possible) to switch nationalities by emigration, and apply for jobs with overseas carriers, most of whom have a policy of only employing their own nationals?

mad_jock
20th Apr 2004, 10:40
But: would employers notice the standard of your pass? Or do you not get a 'grade' as such? If, for example, you passed your exams with, ahem...'flying' colours, would this place you in an advantageous position over someone else?

In relation to the ground stuff we were discussing the fact that it dosn't matter at all. You could have a pass rate of 75% and use all the resits your allowed and sittings. And still be in with the same chance as the person next in the pile who has a pass rate of 99% all first time passes.

All you get at the end is a summary sheet with the exams sat and the percentage and number of trys on it. I have never been asked for this sheet or been asked for my results verbally either.

Flying tests are a bit different. Some look for a first time pass in your IR. And a few a first timepass at CPL. Some don't give a toss. I have met line pilots who have taken 4+ shots at the IR and still got a job.

And if anyone tells you that people care about your PPL they are only winding you up. Apart from the school that we can't mention from Florida who's owner has annoyed that many people in the UK it more than likely your interview will contain a bitching session about the yorkshire ****.

MJ

scroggs
20th Apr 2004, 13:11
Bazzaman96 please read the entirety of this thread; you will hopefully understand then that employers are not interested in your exam results.

The job situation is probably better in UK than in most other parts of the world, with the probable exception of China. When the US finally sorts out its dire airline industry, it will once again be a big consumer of pilots, but that won't be for a while yet - and you would have to be a naturalised US citizen with a Green Card and a good few thousand hours flying in commuters before you'd get a look at jet airliners.

There are contract opportunities in many nations around the world for experienced pilots from Europe and North America, if what you're interested in is flying overseas. If your interest is purely in improving your chances of employment, you're probably best off staying here.

Scroggs