Airmanship

[Steve76]

For some of us but not all of you.

What's with you fixed wing guys?

I leave Timmins for Moose in the bandit and the guys take off downwind (10kts+) and elect to land downwind in Moose (3-6kts)
On the approach the PIC ends up low for the last half mile and all I see is red PAPI's and a looonnng landing roll out and then we have to backtrack anyway to get to the terminal :hmm:

Being in a beligerant mood, I asked the cojoe why we had taken off downwind and landed thus. He misunderstood and spent a minute explaining to me that headwind reduces the takeoff length and the landing length..... which really made it easy for me and embaressed him I think.

I understand the operational reasons (except the backtrack...duh)for this but it is really hard to explain at an inquest. So why do you guys do it?
Are we quibbling over minutes here?

Hey! I elect to do daft things in a hurry sometimes too. But I don't end up doing the "low on the slope" equivalent in my Helo. I usually try to at least have the skills to pull off whatever shortcut I take. I know I certainly feel a little nervous and guilty about it too. The flight crew here didn't see it as an issue.

And before I get lambasted all over this forum. I have flown more hours in a bandit than I care to remember. My old man flew them in PNG in the late 70's. I have a little bit of FW history :ok:

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Steve :

That is not poor airmanship, that is incompetence and stupidity all rolled into one.

Chuck

[ziva]

So I think the guys you flew with are brain dead! especially the explaination about the wind!!!
myself I , sometimes T/O with tail wind or land with tail wind just because the Aircraft can do it!!!! It's sometimes an operational procedure to get airborn as quick as possible.... instead of being stuck on the runway waiting ofr the other one to cancel his IFR.... well, don't be upset! this is not all the guys that are that bad!!
keep cool! you had a bad experience! that's it , so lease don't genealize!

take care fly safe....:E

ciao

[hibypassratio]

Hey Cat (Chuck). It's good to know there is a candid voice on this board just like Avcanada.

Cheers.:ok:

[Jiggs Casey]

Steve76,

Unfortunately you are stuck flying with a poor group of people. You took off most likely pointing at YMO and landed on the first runway the crew saw(06). The crew you flew with was lazy and indifferent. This can be a lesson for others that sometimes people are watching.
Good job calling them on it, maybe they will think about it next time but don't count on it. It's not cool to generalize all fixed-wing guys though.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Not only that but the travelling public has the right to be provided with a safe and professional flight.

Cutting corners to save time may just one day get them under some serious scrutiny or worse yet, dead.

Chuck.

[Stunty]

I agree, Airmanship is sadly lacking in certain areas. I am a controller in the lower mainland and also a pilot. In the last week alone I have seen the following (and been forced to write the paperwork on the following)

1. A helicopter drive within 2 miles of the airport without talking to us because he had an important person on board and was doing some surveying,

2. An aircraft cleared for straight-in joins the downwind for the wrong end and then fails to respond to ATC attempts to get them to turn around, meanwhile 2 other aircraft doing the right thing are forced to orbit.

3. A Tomahawk do a low apporach at a small field in the valley. Little did the tomahawk know it was a skydiving strip in the valley, in a CYA area, and there were skydivers in the air above him. The Tomahawk then proceeds away from the drop zone (while we have an irate DZ operator ringing the phone of the hook) and flies within two miles of the airport, does a few orbits, has a look around and then leaves. P.S. If you are going to do something silly like this at least squawk 1200 so I dont know EXACTLY who you are and where you come from - makes it harder for transport to catch you after I am forced to file paperwork.

4. A very very very experienced pilot - I would suggest this was not a misunderstanding rather complete ignorance is cleared to land on a runway, at short final makes a 90 degree turn and lands on the other runway.

There are many many such incidents a week, airmanship is not as widespread as I would like to see it. Granted it takes time but some things are basic eh? Thoughts?

Stunty

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Yeh, Stunty:

I have some thoughts on why we are seeing a down turn in airmanship.

I believe that since TC came up with all their manditory courses on pilot decision making and human factors training we are seeing more and more border line morons actually flying airplanes.

The reason?? well I believe that once they have taken these courses and are put into the mainstream of aviation they are so busy doing all the neat checks and self inward looking that is taught in these courses that they are incapable of a true thought process.

What think you of that Stunty?

Chuck

[Mostly Harmless]

Steve76, I’ve had many a close call with Helo traffic that was conducting unsafe aviation. Best not to through sticks and stones about us fixed wing types, don’t want to make this into a you against us thing.

Not sure I agree with you there Chuck. I think the problem is a little more wide spread than that. It is my opinion that it has more to do with the “Me, me, me…” attitude that has become our society today. The rules are for other people to follow, I don’t need to because I’m important.

I don’t know if you can blame PDM/CRM for this but people in general don’t think anymore. Ask anyone you meet “Why did you just do that?” (No matter what that it is that they just did) and you are almost guaranteed to get the answer, “I don’t know.” It drives me absolutely mental! Most people go through life on autopilot. Unfortunately, we’ve managed to childproof the world enough that natural selection hasn’t had a chance to clean out the gene pool of these tasty little tiger snacks.

On another front, I’m sure you will agree with… they have made too many rules and regulations. It’s to the point where you are bound to break one to avoid breaking another. Combined with the fact that the regulations are so damned ambiguous (in order for the government to CYA) that no one can possibly know what the rules really are anymore. That, if you ask me, is a real danger. Too many rules that are too complicated and you create an environment where everyone starts to ignore the rules because “They are impossible to follow anyways.”

Well, back to my cage now. Safe flying out there.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

M. H. :

I agree with you, there are not only to many conflicting rules but the focus is now on " catching " you breaking them.

We have a very similar problem with our RCMP especially in our region.

It is 15 miles from my house to the airport and it is not unusual to go through three radar traps, just a couple of days ago there were three cruisers and no less than "EIGHT" RCMP in bright yellow jackets at one speed trap beavering away collecting money for the government.

These fishing hole radar traps have zero to do with safety and 100% to do with another way to gouge the taxpayer.

Now comes the real sad part between their two favourite radar traps about five miles apart lies the down town core of this small city and you dare not park your vehicle and leave it even in broad daylight because the drug addicts will smash the windows to steal a dollar, and the drug pushers can just about set up stalls on the corner.............

So what do the poilce do??? Rob the taxpayer.

We get hit from both sides.

Transport Canada is no different, they now see themselves as collectors of money, by using the same tactics that the speed cops do.

So screw them all. ( Without a lubricant of course. ) :D

Chuck E.

[pigboat]

Excellent sentiment Chuck! :ok:
As Tony Draper would say, "May they be slowly rogered to death with the blunt end of a ragman's trumpet." ;)

[Crazycanuk]

You seem to be ignoring the obvious. If the poor guy who is stopped by the cops was not breaking the rules he would not get a speeding ticket. The same is true for the rules of the air. The argurment that you have to break one rule to comply with another is cr@p. The fact is that it is most likely ignorance of the rules that is causing problems. If on some rare occasion a rule is broken to comply with another then that could be explained and that would be the end of it.

Crazy

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Crazycanuk :

Can you see any connection with how our regulating resourses are used, and the issues they concentrate on?

In the case of police sitting in speed trap fishing holes collecting money for Government, and just down the road we have real crimminals plying their trade openly on the streets.

So in your mind that is O.K. ?

As to our regulator in aviation tell me the difference in their use of resourses when they do " Ramp checks " using the scatter gun concept of hitting something.

You find that to be good use of their resourses?

Can you explian to me the difference between crimminal thugs preying on society on the streets and Government sanctioned enforcers preying on aviation using " ramp checks " looking for possible infractions of the most vague of regulations?

What happened to probable reason to believe a law is being broken?

Do you support a society whereby you are regulated into non compliance?

Chuck E.

[Stunty]

I found out something very interesting the other day that is somewhat applicable to mention now that we have started talking about the effective use of resources.

Something that has always p!ssed me off is when I have to write up an AOR (Aviation Occurence Report) because either myself or a pilot made a mistake, there is never never any followup on it. As far as I know I fax it to my boss and thats the last I ever hear of them - I assumed they were being filed in the Transport Canada waste paper basket.

The other day we had someone of importance visit the tower and I mentioned how much of a waste of time it feels like because there seems to be no followup. He said to me that everytime I file an AOR against an aircraft, if transport can identify the aircraft, which is normally the case they follow-up 100% of the time with a phone call to the pilot or a personal visit depending on the severity of the incident. Seems my discust was misplaced and personal one on one contact like this is great to sort out possible misunderstandings and safety issues.

Stunty

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Stunty :

Yes, I can attest to the fact that TC follows up on AOR's.

I also learned another lesson last year and that is to never ever again make the mistake of talking to one of their enforcement people with the missconseption that telling the simple truth about a minor occurance will satisfy their desire to find a way to find the pilot negligent or in contrevention of some rule.

The AOR was filed by FSS because a wheel nut had fallen off a Cessna 150 that had just been signed out with a new annual, the problem was the cotter pin was not put back on and neither myself nor the engineer who had did the annual noticed the pin missing.

Anyhow I explained to the enforcement guy what had happened and that we found the nut and there was no damage to the wheel or the axel, and it was back on and the safety pin was in and a log entry made to cover the work.

He said OK and I thought that would be the end of it, but about a week later M&M called me with more questions and once again I explained what happened also I told the inspector that I had filled out a SDR on it and did he want a copy. He said no there was no need to send it as he had no problem with what had happened and as far as he was concerned it was finished....well I finally got smart and asked him to give me his name again and I would staple a note to the SDR with his decsion on it just in case there was another follow up call, he said sure but don't worry there will not be any further calls on this issue.

Two weeks later I get another call from the same enforcement guy that first called me and this time he got off to a bad start by his arrogant attitude and his insistance that he was not just going to let this rest......so I asked him to listen to me for a minute because I had something that needed to be said.

Then I told him I had had enough of being bullied for trying to be co-operative and that the next time he contacted me I would refuse to discuss anything and he he had better have something solid to charge me with because I would bring an harassement complaint against him through the proper channels in Ottawa. He got the message because he knew what happened to the last inspector that made the mistake of hounding me until I filed an harassement complaint against him....believe me these people can be charged and they know it.

In over fifty years of flying I have never been charged with an offense and these pricks know that.

Anyhow I have come to the conclusion that in my region we have several thugs in TC who abuse their authority and I'll treat them all in that context, in otherwords I will refuse to co-operate in any manner except as outlined in the Areonautics Act with regard to producing documents........As long as TC allows this type of behaviour from some of their employees they sholud be treated with the same contempt that they show for us.

I have just had enough of their overbearing attitude and being expected to bend over and meekly get shafted when I have done nothing wrong.

Chuck E.

[Stunty]

Thanks Chuck, I find that very interesting. I get a file every now and then that lists every single AOR that was filed in Canada the day before. Often the package is about 50 pages thick with in excess of 100 AORs per day. Some of them are ridiculous and should never be filed and some are dangerous acts that should be followed up and some are interesting reading.

Before I was of the opinion that filing an AOR was a waste of time because nothing happened. Now I still file when required but I am very careful and try to use discretion even though it may get me in trouble from the boss. We have been directed to file all breaches of regulations, but in certain circumstances that is crazy. I dont want to see a young, up and coming pilot have a black mark on his file because he did a right turn on departure without asking for it when standard turns are left. And as for crazy things well putting in an AOR because a wheel nut fell of is stupid....if anything first actions should be put down the pen and AOR form and get the message to the aircraft before it departs.

Thanks for the feedback.

Stunty

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Stunty :

I often wonder how we all got to here.

Prior to the introduction of CAR's or at least some years before that event there was an unwritten kind of mutual trust between us the people who fly and maintain and those who are air controllers.

When we made a mistake it was usually handled by one on one with the controlling facility involved. Common sense was used and unless the act was serious and either deliberate or stupid to the point of needing a closer look that was the end of it.

Now we have a wedge being driven between us and you by TC.

We are aware of the risk that you take when using common sense and not filing an AOR, for the simple reason you then are on the receiving end of possible enforcement action by TC.

This new direction that has been taken by the regulator, TC will only create resentement and division between two entities that prior to now respected each other.

I fear for the safety and future of aviation as TC becomes more and more determined to use storm trooper tactics by using a sledge hammer to kill a misquito.

In my case of course it is obviously just another example of my regional TC office trying any tactic they can to punish me for having exposed the moral corruption within the top level of TC in this region and up the chain right into the higest level of TC in Ottawa.

The stupid part is all this was due to their refusal to deal with a small problem they had with one of their inspectors, and as the stonewalling and cover up went up the ladder of power more and more outright dishonest and stupid actions finally brought us to here ( By us I mean myself and TC. )

So in that I have broken no regs or laws and have lost tens of thousands of my retirement money fighting these Government santioned thugs I plan on showing my pure contempt for them as long as they refuse to deal with the root cause of their problem.

My rant is to give you pause to really examine what can happen when power is missused.

And the manditory use of AOR's is over kill and can become missuse of power, in my opinion.

Chuck Ellsworth

[chimbu warrior]

Back to the original post..................Steve76 I see you mentioned your father flew Bandits in PNG in the late 70's..............was/is his name Keith by any chance?

[Steve76]

Hi Guys,

First apologies to the FW pilots who I unceremoniously thumped with the **** stick by accident. Not my intention...I shouldn't post grumpy. Sorry, most of you guys do a great job.

Chimbu. Not Keith (RIP) but Stu.

One of my observations is that the emphasis of piloting has shifted from one who has a good practical handle on flying (ie: hands and feet), to one who follows the SOP's to the letter and can work the autopilot effortlessly.

It is my opinion that there is a massive degredation in pilot skill requirement and thus a reduction in competency. In civilian aviation (of which I am a product soley) whether it is Helo of FW, if you have enough money you will eventually be able to be trained to the minumum standard to pass the CPL test. It might cost a lot more but you will eventually make it. Unlike some Tertiary education where two strikes and you are out.

SOP's (god bless 'em) are crucial to an op, but they are just there to legislate commonsence. If you only have a little naturally, they are intended to camoflage your stupidity and help you perform to the standard of the rest of us.

End result. The BS we all have to put up with everyday.
Pilots who have difficulty with aircraft manipulation in normal circumstances let alone emergency situations and a mass of semi-skilled pilots via for a small amount of jobs. Employers don't seem to mind that you cannot fly as long as you follow the SOP's and meet the minimum requirements.

I had just this discussion the other day with a collegue/friend who flys FW in the Yukon. He noted his amazement that some pilots had make it as far as they had or even had licences to start with. We wishfully dream that someday we can pick and choose who flys with/for us to avoid ever having to associate with these slack pilots.
This all sounds very arrogant and elitist but its only the truth.
When you have a 2000hr pilot as a copilot who with 1000hrs on type still has touble holding a solid hover...you start to get jaded.

Have a great summer out there and keep the head moving...they are coming for us all. :)

As a good buddy says: "99% out there are just lucky engines don't stop more..."
Thanks G.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Steve :

Your observation regarding the lack of expertise in aircraft handling is not unfounded.


I also have observed this downward spiral in piloting skills that is all to evident in aviation..............My thoughts on how we arrived at this situation are much like yours, liability is at the root of the problem.

When enough checks and proceedures are dove tailed with regulations that protect the regulator you end up with the mindless zombies evident in far to many aircraft, slavishly adhering to SOP's and like monkeys moving controls in rote learned fashion............ Oblivious to any thought process or skill requirement.

There, now I will step down from the podium and await the enevitable replies.

Chuck

[Steve76]

So, I am at Wiarton last weekend. Buddy and the cessna do a really nice standard overhead rejoin. That's great I comment to the cojoe, but why is he joining the downwind runway?

Perhaps he doesn't realise he has a quartering 15+kt tail wind from the port side?

Perhaps he will see the windsock and go around since he hasn't noticed that he was offsetting for drift to the right all the way up SWO?

Perhaps he is just wanting to practice a downwind, crosswind approach?

OUCH! yep...buddy sure needs the practice at those. Airspeed buddy airspeed. Amazing the impact a Cessna Cardinal can take.... like op's into a mountain strip in the Highlands eh Chimbu...

Perhaps he will do a walkaround to check the tail...we think he nearly hit the tail?

NO? obviously we are mistaken.

Surely he is not taking off on the runway he just arrived on?

Surely he must be confused at the wind direction, despite taxying past the sock to the threshold.....

Surely that must be the direct track for Toronto.

Nice ground effect takeoff thou.....:hmm:

Roll on summer. Let the games begin.

[chimbu warrior]

Steve, in the highlands we only landed d/w if we HAD to; where there is a choice, we always landed into wind.

BTW, was your Dad a Kiwi, and mother Joan?

[Steve76]

Yep.... Chimbu.
And please don't assume I was inferring DW approaches. I hold all pilots who have survived PNG in the highest regard. The worlds best I think....