Cardiff charter today (21/03)

[smallpilot]

Any idea who was flying a charter from Southend to Cardiff this morning (Sun 21st)?, apparently leaving apprx 60 VERY angry pax behind at EGMC as the aircraft was 'too heavy' to take them all? I was not booked on the flight but a friend was and he is livid- I'm still trying to get all the details, but the flight was fully booked weeks ago. Needless to say 60 odd pax who had paid £200+ for their day-trip were distraught after being told they could not see their football team play in the final. Anyone got any ideas please?

[onion]

Who's fault is it? Charter company, airline or the airports? If this had happend at Teesside with the m'boro supporters going to the carling cup final they would of trashed the place.

[speedbird_heavy]

European operated the aircraft and I think it was chartered by on of southends fan club officials. Only 40 odd pax flew in on the second flight and by the time they landed Blackpool were 1-0 up.

The apparent reason was that Southend had a runway length restriction. Somehow a NOTAM didn't make it through the system.

[Red Four]

Speedbird Heavy

For the record, there were no airfield 'restrictions' on the Southend runway yesterday.

The AIP is available for all to study, and IMHO, says it all better than Pprune rumour and inuendo!

[Buster the Bear]

Considering it was just a day trip to watch a soccer cup final, so no hold baggage, Southend United must have some really overweight supporters!

How come, amongst others, Air Malta regulaly operated charters from the island to Southend using B737-200's? Their customers must have been the slim ones travelling light from Essex!

So how many Buster's could European carry from Southend to Cardiff before having to off load a bear or two?

http://whipsnade.co.uk/picturelibrary/jpeg150/br/brown_bear_120_wide.jpg

[PPRuNe Radar]

If this had happend at Teesside with the m'boro supporters going to the carling cup final they would of trashed the place.

But would anyone have noticed ?? :)

[speedbird_heavy]

Red Four.

For the record. I was the dispatcher of EAF3407 (the return flight). Having been in conversation with Southend Airport and EAF ops, they told me that because of the low preassure and RUNWAY Length restriction at Southend they could only carry 65 pax on the first trip and only 47 boarded the aircraft for the second trip.

No Pprune rumour here sorry, Unless all parties involved were telling pork pies.......

[VeeMo]

I believe my company turned down this charter because our aircraft (757) could not lift the required load from the runway available at Southend. Sometimes you just got to say no.

[smallpilot]

I was at the game, (took the coach) but friends on the flight have the following story....
They were told after they had all checked-in that the aircraft could only take 65 of them because "it had too much fuel on it so couldnt take off with everyone." I gather there were some VERY angry scenes at EGMC and not without reason IMO. Thus the 2-trips situation arose. The reason there was ony 40-odd on the second flight is that a number of people walked-out in disgust at this including I'm told the club's major sponsor -a man who pumps thousands every year into the club. (This is not a money-bags premier league team here but a small side struggling to stay in the league and afloat, heavily in debt and not paying its staff big wages -a bit like many airlines people on here moan about i guess?). Needless to say those on the 2nd flight missed most of the match and had their big day out totally ruined because it seems like someone in EAL ops completely screwed-up!

People had paid £200+ for this once-in-a-lifetime experience to go to a cup final and to be treated to this kind of amateurism by the airline is unforgivable! If the 'too much fuel' story is true, then why was the a/c full for such a short sector? Did EAL ops bother to check r/way lengths etc at EGMC or what?
(Was offloading some fuel an option on this type of a/c?)
The excuses offered by someone called Ken Dyer (EAL Commercial Director?) that the wind was the problem aren't washing with the fans or making him popular -not even a hint of 'sorry we ruined your big day' in his statement to the local press!

I'm told that the club are bloody p#ssed off with EAL (to put it mildly!) and that the subject of compensation is being mentioned. Maybe someone at EAL ops who knows more might like to explain this cock-up?

(or maybe a couple of coach loads of angry footy-fans stopping off at EAL's office should be arranged!)

[ghost-rider]

Low pressure & runway restrictions = reduced load ! Simple but unfortunate fact ! This regularly happens to airlines worldwide !

How to explain the above physics to non-aviation types in laymans terms though is another story ! :ugh:

Shame their day out was ruined but it isn't EAL Ops fault !

It's like the British Rail "wrong leaves/snow on the track" scenario.

The only question being was the runway length restriction NOTAM'd (published) at the time the charter was accepted by EAL ? If so, then they should have run some a/c performance data based on planned loads etc admittedly.
If the restriction wasn't published on booking, then surely there is no way EAL can be held accountable !

[teachin]

Simple but unfortunate, BUT knowing what a ramshackle outfit European were I am not at all surprised. I remember being delayed because of such idiotic oversights. Let's face it they were AMATEURS...

[Harrier46]

SEN is infamous for poor performance off one runway (church steeple at one end). Has been for years so most operators should be well aware. However that said most times the other runway is used so no problem, just unlucky with the strong winds that day. Got caught out one day with an F27 cargo flight, full load SEN-DUB. Only solution was to load half at SEN then hop over to STN and wait for the truck with the rest to catch up. S**t happens!

[smallpilot]

Ghost Rider, Harrier46...I dont think your " tough luck, sh*t happens" attitude would go down well if I put you out in front to explain this to the fans!
How about EAL doing their homework before accepting the job, especially if other operators had reservations? As other posters have said 737-200's have regularly flown from EGMC in the past to Spain. According to the local media the flight was organised via a company called 'Bookajet' (based in Southampton? anyone know them?).
Its simple - if the airline/operator couldnt do the job they should of either turned it down or sub-chartered to someone that could have done it. If I book a 747 out of Southend will the operator accept the booking and then say 'oops sorry, cant do it' on the day of the flight? I dont think so!

[Harrier46]

These problems are usually caused by inattention to detail and a combination of events. From reading between the lines here is a possible scenario : Aircraft positions in from wherever with full load of fuel as it will only be needed for several short sectors and SEN fuel is very expensive so no uplift there. Crew expecting the normal runway for departure but then told the bad news and only option is to defuel (always difficult if not impossible) or leave pax. If you regularly operate through SEN then this problem is well known but otherwise it can take you by surprise. The 737s to Spain would only have had a few problem flights and no doubt on these occasions went out with minimum fuel (maybe to STN) and then onward. The operators would have factored this into their original costings.
I agree somebody screwed up but who? Crew for overfuelling, or European for not checking performance?
Bookajet are based at Southampton airport and operate a fleet of mainly HS125 executive jets, they also act as a charter broker.

[ghost-rider]

smallpilot ...

As I said, explaining the physics in layman's terms isn't easy, especially if the listeners are after blood and someone to blame regardless of circumstances !

I know nothing of this particular incident, and have no contacts with EAL, but again, ...

... it is a simple FACT of aviation that if a runway length is reduced, the air pressure is low, the weather 'wet' etc etc etc then you are NOT going to get a full load off that runway !

Now, if the reduction of available tarmac was published well enough in advance, then yes, EAL Ops should have been aware of it. However, the tour operator won't be, and I doubt EAL Commercial would be. EAL Ops may well have been put under pressure by the commercial side ! ( Purely speculation ).

However, if it was a no-notice reduction, then EAL cannot be blamed at all !

We have had occassions as a sched carrier, where we could not lift all booked pax plus all bags due to similar scenarios. This sometimes is regardless of a runway reduction ... just purely weather related.

EAL may well have done the performance calculations pre-op and found them acceptable. But maybe the wx conditions on the day were severe enough to prevent a full load ?

747s etc can easily get out of SEN dependant on all the above parameters. Comparison with this event is a non-starter.

Are you actually in the industry yourself ? If so then you should know better !

Just as an aside .... what if there had been no r/w reduction, wx was fine, but the a/c picked up a 3hr ATC delay for whatever reason ( say staff shortages at LACC for example ) and you all missed the match ? Who would you blame then ? ATC ? EAL ? Tour-Op ?

Apologies if I come across as uncaring ... as a footy fan myself I can understand the frustration ... but ....

... you have to see the other side of the coin as well ! Assuming EAL screwed up "par-se" isn't on without knowing the facts first !