737 rating and employment

[Air22]

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone had obtained employment after completing the bond aviation/astraeus 737 type rating with or without line training? I have heard that 85% of people who did the course then got a job and I was wondering if this was the case before I decide to fork out 25k.
Thanks

[Artificial Horizon]

I know five people who have completed the type rating with Astreaus, two of those are on rolling contracts with Astreaus after paying for some line training as well as the type rating. The other two are now working for turbo prop operators. One did not complete the training as Astreaus wanted more money than initially quoted to provide the base training, he didn't have the extra money, so after completing the ground school had to take the balance of his money and stop the training.

The two who weren't employed actually found the rating to be more of a negative aspect. One was turned down by EasyJet as they said they prefer to type rate thier own people, the other was turned down by a turboprop operator, the interviewer made the comment of 'now that you have paid for a 737 type rating will you leave as soon as you get a job on a 737'.

In short unless you are guaranteed a job with Astreaus it seems a very risky move as it actually seems to make you more unemployable with some airlines and if you get work with a turboprop operator then you would have got the job with or without the type rating. So tread carefully.

[triplespool]

I would say it is more like 15% getting a job with someone and 85% with nothing. Just to back this up, if astraeus are doing 20 per month there is no way there are 20 737 jobs out there a month, no way.

[Luke SkyToddler]

I'd say Easy and Ryan between them would account for more than 20 737 jobs a month ... however as a-h pointed out, they have their own type rating schemes which I'm sure earn money for them just like the Astraeus one.

If I was to go buy a rating then I would at least do it with a company like Ryanair that has dozens and dozens of 737s and a realistic shot at employment at the end, as opposed to Astraeus which cannot possibly offer work to more than a tiny percentage of their trainees.

[triplespool]

I should have added "Easy and ryanair will not take astraeus people". That leaves very little left.

[The Southend King]

I met some of the Bond/astraeus people at the simulator recently. I think there are about 16 going through this month, which is the highest number so far, so the talk of 20 a month is false. I'm puzzled by the comment from a turboprop operator regarding someone with a 737 type rating disappearing if offered a 737 job. Surely they would be bonded on their turboprop rating anyway?

I believe some of the ex Bond guys are in easyjet, Globespan, helios, and the new operator in Bratislava as well as the guys who were kept on by Astraeus. Theres also a big group with EXCEL through the Global/Bond scheme. I also met a couple of Icelandic guys who were paying for their type rating and hoping to work with Astraeus on their Keflavik operation for Iceland Express. I know theres a problem with easyJet because of a contract EZY have with CTC for their own TRSS, and with Ryanair because of the kickback they get from GECAT and others for providing the type rating to paying students, but a few have slipped under the net.

I suppose the other way to ask this question is " How many FATPL with less than 500 hours have secured an airline job over the past year without paying someone for a type rating"? That might give some idea as to what the market is doing. I was lucky enough to have had a rating paid for as an upgrade from a Turboprop job to a jet job , just before my employer went bust.

Strange thing is...this is hardly a new phenomenon. I have some friends who bought themselves type ratings from British Midland in the late 80's /early 90's. Some of them are now TRE's with various big airlines in the UK, particularly with the meteoric growth in the Low Cost sector.

Fouga Magister makes a very good point in This Stapleford thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=122711) (about half way down page two) about the options available today. Horses for courses I suppose.

[Chutney]

..... horses for courses indeed. Let the market do its work.

However, the concept of the market is based on perfect knowledge. The course of this thread is too focussed to allow decent let alone perfect knowledge.

Ryanair/+ many sim centres, CTC/Easy, Global/Storm, Bond/Astreus, Bond/Stapleford/Astraeus, German operators, and Blue Skies - any more I've missed???? Everyone of them pumping freshly minted 737 ratings into the marketplace.

Everyone of them doing a professional job.
Everyone of them earning a well deserved profit
Everyone of them totally above board and honest
Everyone of them pursuing their business plan

Not one of them with a blind bit of interest in the cumulative effect of what they are doing. Only the bottom line counts and if or when the returns become insufficient they turn to the next project. Returns will not reduce for many of them when the market is satisified. Returns will only reduce when the customers realise the market has been satisfied. This is an entirely different and painful economic experience.

In the real world that actually means there are a lot of people who have not got jobs. Why would anyone pay to enter a full market without a contract at the end of it??

The total number of new and existing 737 ratings versus total number of empty 737 right seats is the only thing that counts for wannabees. One far exceeds the other and its up to wannabees to discover which way round it is.

[concordino]

Well put Chutney !!

couldn't have said it better myself, there is a group of smart money people who will capitalise to sell dreams to others.


:rolleyes:

[Tubbs]

Chutney, were you in Economics before you got interested in Origami? A post well worth plagiarising...

[Pilot Pete]

I'm puzzled by the comment from a turboprop operator regarding someone with a 737 type rating disappearing if offered a 737 job. Surely they would be bonded on their turboprop rating anyway?

Well, here is my thought on the matter;

Say the turbo-prop outfit bond you for £10k over 2 years pro-rata. Say they pay you £20k pa. Say you keep applying for that 737 position as you start to build airline, 2 crew, turbo time. Say after 6 months you get a job offer for direct entry F/O paying say £30k. That means you can leave the turbo job, pay the bond and start ammassing jet time with roughly the same take home wage in year one...........the future benefits are obvious.

I know which one most people would opt for.........

PP

ps figures just made up for example, they will vary greatly from one job to another, but even if you are going to actually lose money in the first year or so the fact that you are now gaining jet time, the future earnings potential, seniority list position (assuming they have one), command possibilities etc etc may well still be enough to sway you into taking the jet position and leaving your new turbo-prop operator looking for another pilot.

[The Southend King]

Pilot Pete, Yes I suppose that makes some sense, assuming you could get your hands on the bond amount.

Chutney, I'm not sure you've got you assumptions right.

Ryanair + many sim centres are training to fill Ryanair vacancies

CTC/Easy are training to fill Easy vacancies

Global/Storm/Bond are training to fill Excel vacancies

Bond/ Astraeus/Stapleford are training to fill all or any of the above + Astraeus ,Globespan, Thomsonfly,Channex, Skynet, Sky Europe.

I think you'll find the Ryans and Easy are most concerned about where all the pilots are going to come from to fly all their new aircraft. Even my employers are concerned about where we would find a group of 737-300 rated pilots to crew any additional aircraft we may take on to cover work abandoned by EAAC.

The guys laid off by EAAC need a full conversion to fly the 737-300 ( Yes, it's completely daft!)

[Kinetic]

I don't agree with Chutneys broad based generic assumption that pertains to all 737 type rating sytems as being one and the same.

There is truth in the post that many companies methods, like Bond and Storm for instance are trying to flog ratings each and every month to a vast number of people with only a few getting picked off now and again by limited partner Airlines, in an already burgeoning market place where supply far outstrips demand.

But the Ryan, Easy and CTC schemes are difficult to get onto and are not just about churning people out into the "open market" as others are.

I have been selected for the Ryan TRSS, and there is a difference between the Ryan and Easy systems and that of others. Whilst there is an element of risk, Ryan put prosepctive candidates through the full interview and sim check and only a limited amount of people get offered a place on the TRSS at certain times to correspond to actual Right seat forecasted positions. Of course that requirement can change by the time you get to the end of your initial 6 month contract, but historically each and everyone of the 100+ who has been through their TRSS has got an employment contact at the end of the 6 months training contract.

There is an obvious financial advantage to Ryan and Easy to do this as they get you for reduced money for 6 months and don't carry the risk of rating you. But I think the Ryan and Easy schemes, if you are lucky enough to get offered, are an excellent opportunity to get that elusive first jet job

[Doog]

Air 22. In answer to your original question, yes I did, having done the course recently. I was going to do the line training with Astraeus but didn't need to as I secured a job within two weeks of doing the base training. I also had an invite for another interview a couple of days after I accepted the first job offer.

Triplespool - Where do you get your facts and figures from? I don't know if 85% get a job, but I'm pretty sure that it is more than 15%. On my course alone 5 out of 9 had jobs within a couple of weeks of completing the rating. The other 4 are completing their line training with Astraeus. Also I know for a fact that easyjet have taken some Bond/Astraeus trained people. And they do not train 20 people every month.

A couple of posts here seem to imply that Astraeus are just out to sell as many ratings as they can. I would disagree with that sentiment. Whilst they are obviously seeking to make a profit from the TRTO side of their operation, they are also very keen to maintain a very high standard. There is a selection procedure before you can start on the course and the course itself is no easy ride. However if you are prepared to work hard you can get through without any extra training (or money).

At the end of the day as has been said before it is just another option for getting that elusive airline job. I did my research and saw it as an investment. It has paid off and I will recoup my investment within 12 months in the salary I will receive over and above that I would have got with a turboprop operator. And just in case you were wondering, I'm not working for Astraeus.

[paddygee]

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a problem developing in the industry for pilot numbers i.e. not enough coming through?

I am considering paying for an ab initio course,and it would seem the above statement may be true.......can anyone advise?

[WhyNotMe]

Doog ,

I totally agree with you!
If not a cadet from a major , you take the risk or stay where you are.
All the friends I know paid for the type ( either 737 or 320) and did not regret , but sometimes you will have to be a little more patient than a few weeks! But it will pay of , especially if you have some backgrounds....

Cheers

[Luke SkyToddler]

paddygee

To answer your question - it's definitely just you. I don't know where you got that idea from but if you follow this forum for more than a few weeks you will get the picture - there are hundreds and hundreds of low hour, qualified CPL/IR holders in this country looking for flying jobs. There has never ever in the history of aviation, been a situation where there wasn't many more 200 hour wannabe's than available airline jobs, and any flying school marketing rep that tries to tell you otherwise is lying through their teeth. Trust me on this one.

There certainly isn't a problem with insufficient numbers coming through the system either, ask any instructor who does CPL training at the moment and you'll find they are booked out months and months in advance.

If it's your dream then don't let anyone discourage you but you also need to walk into it with your eyes open. All the will and determination and desire in the world won't change the fact that there are many more student pilots than there are jobs, and therefore at the end of the day some people are going to miss out.

You can minimize the chance of being a statistic by choosing your flying school carefully, studying hard, assiduously brown nosing and cultivating every airline contact you ever meet, doing instructing or crap low paid flying work to stay current / build experience, and if all else fails keep throwing money at hours and type ratings until some of it sticks.

:ok:

[Pilot Pete]

Southend King

assuming you could get your hands on the bond amount.

I think if you walked into your bank manager and addressed the issue like a business proposition, showing him the evidence and future pay scale earnings potential, gave him a timescale to pay it back in and to keep servicing your outstanding training loans he would jump at the prospect of loaning you more money..............

PP

[rodquiman]

You guys have talked a lot about Bond, Stormaviation, Global Aviation Solutions but for me it´s not very clear the relationship between this three companies.

Could somebody expain me? Are the three the same or they provide different ways to get the Type Rating?
:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Thaks.

[Yorkshire-Pud]

Bond is the training arm of Astraeus - ie Bond is the TRTO and Astraeus hold the AOC. Global Aviation Solutions is a joint venture between Storm Aviation and Bond/Astraeus in as much as Storm, amongst other things, supplies contract pilots to airlines. So.... if they don't have enough rated pilots then they offer a rating to a suitable pilot (you have to be selected) thus a ready supply of rated pilots to offer to their 'customer' airlines

[rodquiman]

Thanks Yorkshire-Pud.