View Full Version : Attacks in Madrid
12th Mar 2004, 16:30
Don't see any other posts on the subject.
I just wanted express my shock at the horrendous events which occurred in Spain yesterday.
My thoughts are with all those who have been affected by this terrible disaster.
I condemn the cowards responsible.
12th Mar 2004, 16:38
Amen, I think it is just too horrifying for comment, I would condem as well, I would condemm unto the third and forth generation, I would wipe them and their seed from the face of this earth.
The Invisible Man
12th Mar 2004, 18:37
I cannot comprehend the reasoning behind whoever is responsible, thinking that attrocities like this do their cause any good. Utter Bast*rds
Words fail me.
12th Mar 2004, 19:22
It never ceases to amaze me the horrors we can unleash on our fellow man. Terrible - words fail me.
My thoughts are with the families and the whole of the Spanish people.
12th Mar 2004, 20:06
So hard to comprehend. All those people just doing the ordinary things they did at that time of the day; thinking ordinary thoughts about that quote, taking the dog to the vet, daughter's birthday, electricity bill, moving house, picking up the dry cleaning ...
and in the space of a few minutes, the ordinary, everyday world of hundreds of innocent people is blown wide apart and for those people, their families, friends and colleagues, life will never be normal ever again.
Man's inhumanity to man.
12th Mar 2004, 20:08
The carnage , deaths , injuries inflicted on the innocent citizens of Madrid yesterday was truly horrific.
What justification can these terrorists have for this ?
Be they ETA or Al Quaeda how do these people sleep at night, how do they look at there own families in the face knowing full well they have destroyed other peoples families?
My deepest sympathies to all those who have been affected by this abomination.
It is an outrage, unwarranted, and total and utter barbarism. The perpetrators when apprehended should be shown no mercy and if possible, no option to surrender.
What justification can these terrorists have for this ? Unfortunately the luvvie, leftie, apologists will, after a few days, come out and explain the exact reasons why the "freedom fighters" or whoever are totally justified at striking back at a society that marginalizes them and their kin. They are oppressed, were abused since birth, are desperate, have no other option, choice yadda yadda yadda - just wait...fu:mad: kers
12th Mar 2004, 22:36
There is a big difference between 'freedom fighters' potentially fighting another army etc. etc. and terrorists who murder/massacre innocent civilians, in another country at that (not going to go into lengths of politics or definition but sure you get the picture).
Anyone see the clip on UK TV last week of the 2 Muslim suicide bombers from up north somewhere...absolutely unbelievable...there is only one answer for these nutters and that is they should be hunted down and summarily executed preferably before being able to strike. I don't often support the Israelis but they have/had the right idea with MOSSAD doing exactly this for years...
Al-Qaeda, Chechens they are just animals and should be exterminated accordingly :cool:
13th Mar 2004, 01:37
Agree with you completely Boss Raptor:ok:
There was an 'interesting'(?) fact discussed on the radio earlier. Apparently the bombing took place 911 days after 9/11:(
Peace to all involved.
13th Mar 2004, 02:37
Perhaps its me being naieve but i cant for the life of me think how terrorist actions, be they perpetrated by ETA, Al-Queada, the PIRA, etc etc serve any political purpose?
"Right lads, we want to free our homeland, and propagate our political beliefs. Lets blow up a few trains and kill as many people as we can, that will soon get them around to our way of thinking"
Like i said, from a PR point of view, surely they realise that far from encouraging people (except perhaps the lunatic fringe) it only serves to alienate them both from the people they are trying to "convert" and even their former supporters.
Or am i missing the point? :confused:
Anyway, it is a terrible tradgedy, and whoever is responsible for it should spend the rest of their sorry little lives in some dank dark squalid jail.
13th Mar 2004, 03:03
flower, too true...
13th Mar 2004, 03:18
Terrorist atrocities are designed to be impersonal, but, for example, the manic b:mad: ds who perpetrated Omagh got it wrong and effectively castrated the "Real" IRA, to the point where even Adams and McGuiness got close to disowning them. Let's hope the backlash to the Madrid bombings sounds the death knell for ETA, or galvanises an indifferent liberal Western society with a wake up call against the Islamic fascists now running round threatening the West with further examples of their religious zealotry and who are only too willing to claim the "credit" for this unfathomable act :*
Instead of feting terrorists and giving them Max Clifford type publicity, they should be dyed purple and thrown in the slammer for the rest of their inadequate, antisocial lives.
Just to personalise the Madrid atrocity, the 199th victim tonight was a 7 month old baby girl. I hope the perpetrators really have to answer for her, God help her family tonight.
13th Mar 2004, 03:27
Bastards! I can't understand how humans can be so evil! The old cliche 'There is some good in everyone', is exactly that it's a cliche! There is no good in these scum bags!! They are evil to the core, it makes my blood boil. Anyone who defends them are just as bad! String them up by the balls and stone them to death :mad: It is indeed time for the west to wake up and rid the world of these religious fundamentalist bastards! There has been far too much blood spilled in the name of religion. It's the 21st century, lets grow up.
13th Mar 2004, 03:43
The trouble is religious zealots have no agenda such as ETA or the IRA,you may disagree with their quest and their methods but they have a definate political purpose and end product and could therefore be reasoned with and engaged in debate, there is not that option with the bearded filth from El quada, they get their instructions from a 1000 year old fairy tale, they gain merit with their imaginary god by sending as many unbelievers to their death as possible.
There is no point of contact with a pre medieval mindset
Take the gloves off exterminate the bastards by fair means or foul,we will not win with hand wringing and reason with this scum.
13th Mar 2004, 04:16
I agree with most of the above comments. My deepest sympathy to the families of the victims.
I don't want to send the thread off course but perhaps this outrage would not have occurred if we had spent the last 2 years hunting down al quaeda and their ilk, rather than toppling Saddam (a worthy target, but not number 1 on the list)
I hope our leaders will now find the time to do the right thing and not just the most profitable thing......
13th Mar 2004, 04:26
According to the UK news Al Qaieda linked groups (i. e. Muslims)have claimed responsibility.
Still waiting for proclamations of condemnation from Muslims in UK or indeed anywhere else for that matter against these claims.
Perhaps I shouldn't hold my breath?
With regards to the Political element...you cannot have a rational debate with beings who want to bomb the civilised world back to the Middle Ages.
Personally I am getting more and more to the view that we should just walk away from their Countries and leave them to it. They contribute nothing to Society.
13th Mar 2004, 04:29
Wouldn't like to be near a mosque in Madrid tonight... :E
13th Mar 2004, 04:44
Well Basque media sources have said they have been told ETA were not responsible. I think Batasuna said yesterday early on that they thought it was "Arab resistance."
The UXB the Spanish found today holds many clues apparantly, copper detenator wire and the explosive type used are not the hallmarks of ETA. Van found with arab tapes and the Koran....
It certainly bears the hallmarks of an Al Qaeda attack, but....
You wouldn't put it past any terror group to lead the world on a merry dance. It could be a splinter group of ETA who disguised their tracks to make it look like muslim extremists, there could even be the possibility that this group co-operated with Al Qaeda to launch this attack. Sick, we don't know what to think, but it does look more and more like Al Qaeda.
If it is, then we are all in trouble as god knows where will be next. The UK, (read London) must be a favoured target of these animals.
The free world must stand in solidarity with our Spanish brothers. As a banner said today, "we were all on that train."
Please observe the 3 minutes silence on Monday. Like 9/11 this was an attack on us all and we must stand shoulder to shoulder, together as one.
RIP those innocent victims. May god help their families and the injured.
13th Mar 2004, 05:23
Don't hold your breath Bletchley, and if they express regret it will be qualified by a rant about Isreal probably, just as every one I ever heard about 9/11 Bali or Turkey.
13th Mar 2004, 05:25
Unfortunately the luvvie, leftie, apologists will, after a few days, come out and explain the exact reasons.... you seem to be one sylable away from accusing luvvie, leftie, apologists of sympathy for these terrorists, Ozzy. I think you're out of line here. This terrible event shows that a solution from either side of good willing people is far, far away....
13th Mar 2004, 05:25
Never ever heard the Muslim community in the Uk or anywhere else for that matter ever condemn Al Qaieda.
Every picture tells a story eh?
13th Mar 2004, 06:04
I honestly do not know what to say other than to offer my heartfelt condolences to the families of those taken away by this despicable act.
Also, I hope the survivors have a speedy recovery and get all the help they need to recover from the trauma that they will have undoubtedly suffered.
As for the perpetrators, I hope they get what they deserve.
13th Mar 2004, 07:07
Just very sad. I will make no political comments, it just struck me that while 200 died, 8 million turned out to register their disgust.
This was no victory for the terrorists.
Terrorism is hard to define, but if you need a definition, this was it.
13th Mar 2004, 08:21
Totally agree TD.
The rescue workers heard mobile phones ringing on the bodies of the victims.
I hardly ever watch the news these days it seems to be more of the bloody same.
13th Mar 2004, 11:52
F*cking human beings.................we're so good at inflicting this sort of crap on each other.
Most intelligent creatures on the planet my @<hidden>
13th Mar 2004, 12:06
This sort of stuff has less to do with Religion and more about how some sociopaths, hide behind a religion. This is not going to get who ever did this what they want. Like the 9/11 attack, it did not get Al Qaieda what it wanted, they got a lot more than what they had bargained for. Spain is not going to back off, Just like with Us Americans, before 9/11 it was well, a police problem and a matter for the courts. Well, its a War, and you could call it a World War. Spain is going to pull out the stops, they now have the mandate, Spain is going to go on a big time hunting trip. Spain ran the Moors out of europe once before. These guys will be an easier bunch. After all the Moors fought as soldiers, against other soldiers. These turds, just like go after children and women, not soldiers. Its going to take soldiers to put an end to this.
13th Mar 2004, 13:03
I get the feeling the people of the world are starting to lose their patience with the idiotic bastard terror mongers and their antics.
This world is getting too small for their type!
13th Mar 2004, 13:26
I must add my sympathy for all those in Spain, who have sufferd because of this disgraceful and cowardly attack.I hope the scum who carried out this attack will be quickly identified, then equally quickly wiped from the face of this planet.
I am waiting to see when the various lefty 'peace' groups will call for protest marches against the Madrid bombings, I suspect I will be waiting a long time...........................:mad: :mad:
13th Mar 2004, 13:31
Much as we agree here, there is still a liberal elite who give comfort to these b:mad: ds. Hands up those who remember the IRA bitterly complaining about the British Army so called "shoot to kill" policy (particularly after three of their number were taken out fairly ruthlessly in Gibraltar whilst planning a similar atrocity), while maiming and murdering their way in the United Kingdom and Germany to semi respectability today.
The human rights lawyers were all over that one ! Look at the money pi$$ed up against the wall on the Bloody Sunday tragedy and the lack of any such post mortem into Enniskillen, Omagh and countless other bombing atrocities which killed and maimed thousands.
Just look at the recent Terry Waite (Idiot !) statements about those Taliban animals in Cuba ! What a load of bollocks from a self obsessed, misguided crank who arrogantly put himself in harm's way and ended up chained to a Beirut radiator for five years. Talk about the Stockholm syndrome :rolleyes:
Start with AP and other liberal media insistence calling these scumbag terrorists "militants".
My sympathies to all those who lost their loved ones.
13th Mar 2004, 15:08
It's too sad to read it!
The bodies of Madrid victims are not even cold, students, workers, ordinary commuters, "los pobres y humildos", when Ozzy and his lying fellows put the blame on "leftist, luvvies..."!
So the truth has to be repeated, again and again:
The islamist terrorist snake was fed and bred by USA CIA in order to fight Soviet Union in Afghanistan.
Don't you remember also that Colonel North who made business with Iran Ayatollahs to help terrorist "contras" to overthrow the leftist government in Nicaragua?
It's time to clean up your muddy glasses and look in the mirror: you will find barbary is inside yourself.
It's time to stop pushing peacefull people in muslim countries in the arms of fundamentalists.
Now that - thanks to the stupid Iraq invasion - President Bush and his allies have allowed islamist terrorism to spread to Indonesia, Turkey and Europe, it's time to replace them by more clever politicians able to isolate, divide and destroy terrorism instead of feeding it.
If USA, Europe and others democratic countries are not able to conceive and implement an effective antiterrorist policy (and for USA to stop pretending ruling the world and use the pretext of terrorim to achieve its goal of supremacy) we are going to pay the price, with our blood.
At least Ozzy let the Madrid victims rest in peace!
13th Mar 2004, 15:32
Oh for God's sake give it a rest Grandpa will you. Your constant ranting and hatred of America is just too much to stomach just now - why don't you let the victims rest in peace instead of choosing this time for another tirade of "I told you so" Bullshit !
Your attitude is childish and quite pathetic.
13th Mar 2004, 15:35
And maybe, just maybe, Grandpa, you could let the victims rest in peace without spinning this disgusting mass murder into another part of your tiresome personal crusade against the US and its president.
Change the record or go away - to use this sort of event for your own point-scoring (weren't you, surprisingly, slating GWB in another thread for doing exactly that?) is distasteful in the extreme.
(Congratulations, btw, you are the first entry on my "ignore" list)
For what it's worth, let's see what the police come up with - it wouldn't surprise me that terrorist groups might try to disown an attach that has gone "too well".
Though I see one of the usual "militant" weasels in London is attempting to justify by association with Iraq. How do these people get to stay in the UK and out of jail??? :mad: :mad: :mad:
13th Mar 2004, 16:20
How do these people get to stay in the UK and out of jail??? Well, mainly because they've not actually committed any crime by spouting their horrid opinions.
Like it or not, that's the truth of it - you (and I) may want to punch their lights out for what they say, but there's no legal reason why they can't say it.
It's called "the rule of law" and it's one of the things that differentiate us from howling slavering mobs, pseudo-religious idealogues and murdering b:mad:stards who blow up trains.
13th Mar 2004, 16:34
Try walking out into the streets of London and spout the racist anti western shite that hooky handed one eyed bearded sack of filth who should have been shipped back to the yeman for execution ten years ago and see how long you remain free Casablanc,
It seems the law only applies one way.
A good start here would be to shut down all these Muslim schools and Mosques that openly preach Jihad, and there are still many.
13th Mar 2004, 16:51
I'd say Grandpa has a balancing point.
Even Basil was, uncharacteristically, mildly opposed to an attack on Iraq due to the lack of clear justification.
We, in the West, have made our bed and now have to lie in it. Past errors are, in my view:
1. Support for the formation of the state of Israel causing us to be perceived as co-operating in the eviction of Palestinians.
2. Permitting large scale immigration of Pakistanis and other Muslims into our European countries and particularly the UK where they will, sooner or later, come into conflict with the indigenous population.
13th Mar 2004, 16:59
You are absolutely right and thank God we do have the rule of law. I just wish the law could be applied more rigorously in our society to the vermin of all hues who advocate racism, bigotry and violence against other creeds and colours. The rise of the BNP in the UK is a worrying trend, but it is attractive to people who are frustrated at the one way street we see every day whereby they are accused of being "Institutionally Racist" and yet the minority groups are given every leeway to spout their bile - just read the UK based Islamic Group sites Al Mujahiroun etc
Why does the Islamic community not condemn outright even the claim that the Madrid bombing was committed in their name. Still not yet fully established who was responsible as we speak but I am sure we will always see the Palestinian example held up as perfect justification for such acts. Really helps the Palestinian cause Eh ?
I know that the Kuwaitis and Iraqis I deal with out here are horrified and at a loss to understand why we put up with Terror groups in London . These Kuwaitis and Iraqis have suffered far more at the hands of Moslem/Arab brothers than any Western influence by the way and they are truly are sick of the Al Qaeda and other Islamic fascists who have hijacked their religion and language.
13th Mar 2004, 17:35
Why does the Islamic community not condemn outright even the claim that the Madrid bombing was committed in their name. Is there any such thing as "the Islamic community"? Islam (in the main) stretches from the northern half of Africa, east through the Balkans and the Middle East, north-east into Central Asia and China and south-east as far as Indonesia: encompassing a huge ethnic and cultural diversity along the way.
All in all, a very long way from being a single, homogenous community - and that's before we even begin to consider the internal schisms that exist within Islam.
In addition to this, the absence of a single central focus of authority within Islam (eg, a "Pope") makes it far easier for the head-cases - and every religion has those - to spread their bile and distortions without interference from higher religious authority.
Or are some of us really just talking about a dislike of people with beards and dark skins here? :hmm:
13th Mar 2004, 17:37
Actually, Caslance, I think it may be less to do with "the rule of law", and more to do with a failure to have an informed debate on exactly what laws we should have on issues such as condoning/inciting terrorism, particularly religious terrorism.
Any sort of sensible discussion on the issue has been completely stifled by squeals of "racism" as soon as the matter is raised, to the extent that we now have people in the UK openly delighting in attacks on our society and values at the same time as they enjoy the fruits of those values.
It's no wonder there's a huge amount of resentment...
13th Mar 2004, 17:43
.....what laws we should have on issues such as condoning/inciting terrorism, particularly religious terrorism. Such laws are already on the statute books - you'd probably be surprised at the legal definition of terrorism (http://www.hmso.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00011--b.htm) under the terms of the Terrorism Act 2000.
I suspect that the kind of nutters that we are discussing take great pains to ensure that their rantings stay just within the law. Otherwise, one presumes, they would have long since been prosecuted in the current climate.
Whenever there is discussion of the merits of silencing religious and political extremists, the vision of David Blunkett (God help us!) deciding what can, and can not, be uttered aloud springs to my mind.
And it scares the s:mad:it out of me.........
13th Mar 2004, 18:15
"""""""Or are some of us really just talking about a dislike of people with beards and dark skins here? """"""""""
I've been alongside and worked in adversity with more people with dark skins and beards than you can imagine and have shared "bread and salt" with them in their darkest moments.
Sorry Caslance, but you have just compounded my fear of being branded institutionally racist by that remark. You know exactly which community I was referring to and I have yet to hear any form of unequivocal condemnation from the UK Islamic community, or indeed any other, which does not link the latest Al Qaeda terrorist atrocity to poor old Palestine. As if Bin Laden gives a rats for the Palestinians. :rolleyes:
I share your fear of the draconian backlash applied by incompetent Government but where do we draw the line on what is deemed acceptable in our society ? Abu Hamza for example has certainly broken the law and if he had been a silent majority Brit, he would have been rightly prosecuted. He wouldn't have lasted ten seconds on the street with such rhetoric and incitement out here.
PS After many years service out in Oman, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, North Africa and other foreign climes I'm kind of dark skinned with a moustache and five 'o clock Shadow myself:p
13th Mar 2004, 18:39
Pilgrim101 you are quite correct in my opinion - I am also accused of being institutionalised racist having spent most of my working life to date in Africa...
I have good Muslim friends who distance themselves from this situation and say quite correctly 'this is not the way of Islam and these people are not Muslims (metaphorically speaking)'. However yet again we are waiting for the Muslim leaders in the UK to comment and condemn these actions...yet again nothing?!
Surely you'd think that the Govt. would 'have a word' in their ear and point out that this might be a good idea and diffuse a possible backlash...and then u have Abu Hamza who they appear unwilling to prosecute even though he does appear to be in violation of the same Govts' racial incitement laws...what people see right or wrong is that it's ok for a Muslim or other racial minority to criticise everyone else...but not for the majority to criticise them.
Well I think in more than a few towns and cities tonight there will be aggression, punch ups, stabbings and a backlash between the majority Brits and the minority Muslims as a direct result of this event and fueled by the lack of suitable comment from the minorities own leaders...
The BNP is a bit too far but I think a lot of British people are looking for an alternative that takes positive action in controlling this situation...here we go onto politics and the lackings of our current encumbants...again...
Personally the black polar neck 'Oswald Mosley' sweater will be getting an airing this weekend :E
13th Mar 2004, 18:50
Like all wars, the "War on Terror" causes casualties. Unlike normal wars these casualties are not military but civil. Terrorism chooses targets that provide the highest kill in one blow no matter who the victims are, it's the nature of terrorism, there's no war-strategy, just blow after blow.
It's beyond question that the powers that be are aware of the risks of "War on Terror", it has been said many times, that action creates reaction and more terrorist attacks are to be expected. Madrid proves that terrorism can pop it's ugly head anywhere, any time, especially on soft targets. Terrorism always attacks there where you expect it the least. It's almost impossible to prevent actions like in Madrid. See Bali, Turkey, Saudi Arabia.
I'm afraid there will be more of these terrible attacks, somewhere on this planet, inevitably. The Israel/Palestine conflict has proved that the circle of violence can last extremely long and bloody, without even a glimp of hope.
Fighting a war on terror can be a long, bloody struggle, especially if there's no strategy but ad hoc invasions/actions which fuels the war even more.
13th Mar 2004, 19:28
Pilgrim - you are right when you refer to Islamic fascists.
This act was not the work of Islam, it was the work of fascist murderers who cynically exploit their 'religion' to justify their nefarious means and goals.
We all have a view on the Iraq war, on Israel/Palestine, on 9/11 and the 'War on Terror'. I know it's relevant but it's unedifying to see the same old point-scoring stuff churned out again (from both sides) when 200 people have just been murdered on the train going to work. Both sides have valid points to make, but this is not the thread to make them - and it's not as if they have not been made before ad nauseum.
I'm opposed to Islam, Christanity, Judaism and Hinduism because they are all used to justify acts of terror. So it's not correct and balanced to single out Islam as the only culprit.
Either we move on as one race and dump these irrelevant doctrines, or we entrench ourselves further into war.
13th Mar 2004, 19:42
Because Islam is the most virilent and belligerant religious philosophy out there now,I loath all religions for the blood and fire they have spread their lies with, but Christianity has had its teeth pulled long ago.
Islam stands where the Catholic church stood 500 years ago untill we binned that ,and where the protestant puritans stood 400 years ago until we binned that, I look with exteme distaste on another load of middle eastern medieval fanatic producing claptrap establishing itself in my country.
The people of the middle east should have been a great people they began civilisation,, the came up with maths chemistry and the beginins of science, then some tosser with goat shite up to his knees wanders ourt of the desert with another word of god holy bloody writ and thats all she wrote,to quote a line from a movie," they will always be a little people" and they will always be a little people until they see that garbage for what it is, a means for a few sour bearded fanatical old clerics and mullas to control them.
There has never been and never will be a peacefull tollerant religion, they have to spread their lies or wither,and the spreading is generaly carried out with sword and fire
Mr Pilgrim I have never given a toss about peoples skin colour or facial hair, never have and never will,but if the philosophy they follow allows them to regard me as something less than human and of no account just because I am not mind fecked by the same crap they are,they get no quarter from me.
13th Mar 2004, 21:32
I was in Alicante briefly on 11th, and hadn't heard the news. No wonder the handling agents were shell-shocked, and MAD ATC somewhat distracted that afternoon.
Animals would not treat their own thus.
I found the Spanish government's clinging to ETA as the likely culprits odd; until I realised that if they are right, then it will improve their chances in tomorrows election. Whereas if it's Al Q, then it would favour the opposition chances. Cynicism at a time like this!
Anyone else see Dubbya's first pronouncement? Like a rabbit caught in the headlights, he stumbled over his words, and must be the only man in the world who'd refer to ETA as E.T.A. Like he'd only heard of them that afternoon!
I am disgusted by this act, and more firmly anti-religious as a result. Can anyone think of a war not fought in the name of God?
Tony D, I suppose it is no surprise that Islam appears to be acting in much the same way as Christians did in the middle ages, as Mohamed was born in the eighth century, and so Islam is by definition that far behind.
The Spanish people are handling this with dignity. I stand with them and wholeheartedly hope that these bombers are found.
They will never face the justice they deserve, as their enemies are so much more civilised than they are.
13th Mar 2004, 21:33
Sorry Caslance, but you have just compounded my fear of being branded institutionally racist by that remark. Errr.....I wasn't actually referring to you, Pilgrim101. Sorry if you thought I was.
Racism cuts all ways and isn't the exclusive preserve of any one group or culture- there are brown skinned, white skinned, red skinned, yellow skinned, black skinned - and for all I know - green skinned racists out there. The sooner everyone comes to terms with that and stops pretending otherwise, the better.
However.....we in the West do seem over-eager to stereotype and de-humanise all of Islam because of the actions of a (comparatively) small number of murderous criminals hiding behind a skewed interpretation of selected parts of the Koran and ranting "clerics" who should by rights be in loony-bins. And in doing so, we play right into the hands of the Osama Bin Ladens of this world.
By all means identify those responsible, find them, try them and carry out whatever sentence the court passes - string 'em up for all I care. But enough of this scattergun "all Muslims are equally to blame" rubbish that will only act as a recruiting exercise for Al Qaeda, the Taliban and the like.
13th Mar 2004, 22:16
Somebody wrote that this attack carries all the hallmarks of an Al Qaeda operation.
The primary hallmark of Al Qaeda is suicide bombings.
Where are the bombers?
Or is there a cover up going on here by Aznars government?
13th Mar 2004, 22:57
We seem to be vehemently agreeing from different tacks. I can assure you that there are many ranting Friday Imams who are out there preaching a brand of Islam which is unrecognisable to a true Moslem, and I know many as very close friends despite our cultural and religious differences.
If you look at the vile anti Christian/unbeliever ("infidel") vitriol pouring out of groups like the Algerian GIA and many others you will perhaps understand why many Westerners view Islam with deep suspicion. Since 9/11 there has been a remarkable prejudice against America despite their victim status :confused: Also a marked reluctance for any Moslem commentators to make an unequivocal statement of condemnation. Just listen to that little twerp who gets trundled out by Sky News as a commentator for one example. He finds it very hard to conceal his admiration for Al Qaeda.
The reason many Imams give for the attack on New York's innocents is America's support for Israel. Well, most Arab Countries have in fact suffered very little at the hands of the Israelis (excluding those who attacked her) , but immensely at the hands of their Moslem/Arab neighbours
or even their own Governments !
14th Mar 2004, 03:29
The Spanish response to this outrage has been dignified and powerful. 8,000,000 people turned out (over 25% of the adult population of Spain) in a non-violent condemnation of those who had attacked them.
I hope the turnout in tomorrow's election will be a record, showing the power of democracy in the face of evil.
The Spanish Foreign Minister, interviewed on BBC Radio, said that it doesn't matter who did it - their 'objectives' are meaningless, they are merely murderers. They should not be dignified by having a 'cause' associated with their actions.
14th Mar 2004, 04:19
I wonder why the recall of truth about Al Qayda initial supporters(CIA for sure) makes you so angry that you fancy I could hate "America".
My hatred is directed toward the bloody killers in Madrid.........AND.......toward those who try to use the corpses in this massacre for their own political goals.
My only hope, as a citizen of this world which seems to be bound for the worst, is that, at last "America" chooses clever leaders who could be able to engage in cooperation with all democratic countries so as to cut the roots of terrorism.
I will try to give you an example: not long ago a terrorist attack against Morrocan Jews killed 40 people.
It could happen only because Al Qayda zelots were able to pick up a dozzen of desperate jobless young uneducated inhabitants of Casablanca slums.
If these people could have got any hope for dignity in this world they would not have turned themselves as Death squad .
The struggle against terrorism demands many skills:
1- Don't insults people, races and religions, not only because it's the right attitude, but also because it's the only one which will allow world support.
2-Enforce severe but carefully designed police regulations and lead operations in the same manner, with UNO approval, to make sure their result is not to worsen the situation (Iraq invasion is the perfect counter example) .
3-Try to ease tension here and there around the world, give peace a chance , help people to avoid starvation and unemployment, improve education, to deprieve the fundamentalist fish from followers water.
Maybe it's harder this way than what is done now, but if you judge a policy by its result, the current one is faulty.
14th Mar 2004, 05:42
You would think that the 'luvvie lefties' were the enemy here from some of the previous posts. I would prefer it if we (and more importantly our leaders) focused on the real enemy - the terrorist scum.
Perhaps we could start a REAL war on terror - One where we identify the enemy, put troops in on the ground and control the area, preferably 'winning hearts and minds' instead of blundering into the nearest oil rich state that daddy couldn't beat and wasting all our time and blood attacking the wrong people.
I feel that the work in Afghanistan was heading the right way before the extreme, right wing, corporatist American regime decided to put hard cash before our OWN peoples lives (never mind the Iraqis)
Al quaeda (not really a homogenous group) must have spent the last two years chilling out and laughing their socks off.
Bush, Blair and Aznar have spent the last 2 years blundering around in a dark room, their torches fixated on a cockroach in the corner while failing to notice the tiger behind them.
Our world needs real leadership - Churchill style and not these quarter-wits.
And by the way - I am a 'luvvie leftie'
14th Mar 2004, 07:59
Just to say I agree with maxy101.
I couldn't understand why people who took to the streets were holding their hands up as if in surrender though - but, if I understand right, that's a Spanish way of showing respect. Is that right ?
To be fair to us Brits though, there was v. heavy (and respectful) news coverage of the dignified response of the Spanish people - Channel 4 News in particular.
Just as an aside - I was just round the corner when a 1300 pound truck bomb went off in Manchester in 1996, so find it very easy to have empathy with the people affected in Madrid. One moment an ordinary day, the next total chaos and not knowing if more bombs were going to go off. What's unsettling is how the mundane (a car parked in an unusual place, an abandoned bag) can suddenly feel very threatening. And how indiscriminate the effects are - I didn't get a scratch, people much further away than me were cut to ribbons. The uninjured can feel a kind of guilt, as if they cheated somehow. It's very difficult to describe.
Even those fortunate enough to have escaped injury in Madrid will find they can remember tiny details years from now.
14th Mar 2004, 08:16
DH108 - The hands held up, palms out, by the crowds in Spain are to indicate that they have no blood on them.
Spanish people werent surrender at all and we will NEVER do we were holding their hands up saying STOP. Showing their hands saying that we didnt have blood in our hands.
Im spanish and I feel as some part of me has died with that people. we are not going to let the terroris to chage our lives. I think we desmostrated that yesterday when we were 2.500.000 people together in Madrid and 11.000.000 people in all Spain that we are NOT going to loose this war against terror as the rest of world have showed and that we united. I also also to say we feel that Europe and the rest of the world is with us.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
1- Don't insults people, races and religions,
Headscarf ban in France? Right Grandpa,don't insult people.
2-Enforce severe but carefully designed police regulations and lead operations in the same manner, with UNO approval, to make sure their result is not to worsen the situation
Let the police force deal with vandalism timely before putting them in charge of terrorism. UNO ought to learn how to police (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3503416.stm) themselves. They seem to be in need for few good inspectors to clean up behind themselves.
give peace a chance
Are we supposed to sing along to your theme?
Get real Grandpa. It isn't harder,it was tried for too many years and obviously was a great failure.
the current one is faulty
As if the current stance of "War on Terror" just created the word "terrorism",right?
Check out this (http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/01103131.htm) site.
My only hope,as a citizen of this world that,the leaders of the democratic countries sees these scumbags for what they are and take immediate actions accordingly.
I,for one,am quite sick and tired of taking the blame for their poor state affairs under the cloak of starvation and unemployment as we, the taxpayers pay through our noses trying to make something out of their sorry asses.
If they are able to afford to zip around the globe, fund their bombs,they are perfectly capable of uniting to feed,cloth and educate their own poors.
14th Mar 2004, 10:16
After all the strife Nani's been giving Grandpa, one only hopes that Pilgrim 101 will calm things down a bit with some soothing words for Grandpa later on. He could begin with "I'm not angry at you"...and end with "but the UN is definitely not that body.";)
14th Mar 2004, 11:30
I'm not angry at you - that would take a lot more than your usual abuse of America and American policy. The war against terror was there before you woke up to the real world.
The American, and Western support in general for the Mujahideen in Afghanistan, in the eighties, was one action towards the collapse of the corrupt Soviet regime and arguably laid the foundations of a fledgling Government under Karzai without the horrendous religious abuse and brutality of the Taliban.
The Taliban were a home grown bunch of Islamic thugs. Al Qaeda is the brainchild of a twisted rich Saudi psycopath who wants power in that Country and that alone is his motivation for this war against what he laughingly calls the infidel. This is about money and power for Bin Laden and the return of Saudi Arabia to year zero (where have we heard that before ?) and don't have any illusions otherwise.
I am sick of hearing that the root causes of terrorism all belong at the door of the Americans. France had a major role in creating the situation in Algeria for one example and if Western affluence is an affront to the third world then perhaps the UN should be blamed for the corruption and horse trading that goes on. I agree with you that the world needs a strong body to enforce the rights of all, but the UN is definitely not that body.
14th Mar 2004, 11:51
How does he do that :p
Nice one Airship, now about those lottery numbers you promised me :}
14th Mar 2004, 16:04
I just heard on CCN news this morning (East Coast USA 09:00) the Spanish Government has now stated that the tape claiming Al Qaeda responsibility for the bombing is accurate.
The voice heard on the tape is the voice of the military (?) leader of Al Qaeda; I’m not even going to try to spell his name.
As far as Idunno question about no suicide bombers, how does anyone know that there where no suicide bombers on the trains? And all terrorist attacks by Al Qaeda do not necessarily mean only by suicide.
I’ll be in France in a few hours; it will be interesting to see the European media view of this horrible event.
14th Mar 2004, 16:26
Suicide bombing tends to leave specific forensic signs on the remains....none apparently found, and 3x unexploded rucksacks were all rigged to be command- or time-detonated by mobile phone. I personally think Aznar's government desperately wanted it to be Eta, as they were campaigning on a hard anti-Eta platform - hence the spin...
14th Mar 2004, 19:33
Pilgrim, nothing is black and white of course but you must acknowledge the history that the US had in colluding with these now archenemies. The US assisted Hussein and OBL in the past. That collusion may have seemed justified in the past but it still doesn't help us as to where we all stand today. The interference in Iran in propping up the dreadful Shah and all the other "assistance" in other ME countries has caused huge problems that still exist today.
I also think it is about time for complete honesty. What I’m about to say is neither racist nor derogatory.
Remember, I’m referring throughout to a particular section of people.
There is only one religion today that shows complete intolerance to any criticism, only one religion where a significant section of their believers follow the doctrine of acceptable martyrdom and the belief in attacking other human beings as being a divine right.
Only one religion shows that it is incapable of actively promoting human rights, the right if the individual to choose his or hers destiny.
And there is only one religion where senior religious leaders have in the past supported and even encouraged vile murderous attacks on other human beings. These imams actively preach hatred. This religion is repelled by modernity, denies human rights, and revels in the blood of its victims, calling their killers martyrs.
Yes we know the Koran at its essence preached tolerance and understanding, but too many followers do not adhere to that and believe they are justified in Jihad because of small clauses in that text. This is the problem; the Islamic religion has been hijacked by a well-organised evil section who utterly believe in what they are doing.
A recent study, which was commissioned by the EU, showed Anti-Semitism was at alarming levels throughout Europe. The EU stopped its publication. Why? Because it showed this anti-Semitism was almost completely restricted to the EU’s Muslim community.
"'The sword is the key to heaven and hell” The prophet Muhammad
"It means the conquest of non-Muslim territory. The domination of Koranic Law from one end of the earth to the other is…the final goal…of this war of conquest." Ayatollah Khomeini discussing Jihad.
Thanks to Alcaeda PSOE has won the electiones in Spain. Everything before the terrorist attacks was saying that PP was winning.
With this I want to say that Alcaeda has won with the attacks because they have change the way of thinking of the spanish people.
I dont suport any of those partys.
14th Mar 2004, 21:52
So it's OK, you live in the best of the possible worlds:
1-US Government never mistakes.
2-CIA never fueled Taliban with money and weapons, never engaged in dirty business with Ayatollahs to allow for secret armed intervention in Nicaragua.
3-We allready knew CIA, Thailand and China never helped the Khmer Rouges in Cambodia (so they don't have any responsability in the genocide there) only to put the Vietnames in a difficult situation.
Could be laughable, if people were not crying in many places thanks to the mess in which akward US decisions put the world.
I will let you in your dreams.
Tonight, I have only one thought to add: it should not be a surprise when we read the Madrid victim list to find a number of migrant workers on this list, due to the early morning time of the massacre.
Among them, no doubt there should be people from Maghreb, including Arabs, and among them Muslim . People were assassinated regardless of religion and nationality.
The terrorists are indeed threatening peacefull populations all around the world, and that's the reason why they should be fought by world organisations such as UNO, with the active support of every democratic nation.
We need to understand the Big Circus initiated in Iraq is a nuisance for all of us, and that the situation regarding terrorism now is worse than it was before the invasion took place.
When a policy doesn't work, isn't it time to change it?
14th Mar 2004, 22:01
The UN Grandpa?, now I know for certain you are joking, the UN has been a completely impotent corrupt busted flush for the last thirty year, its a job creation scheme for the illiterate brothers in law of African and other third world Dictators, it should have been flushed away years ago.
We can expect no help from that dammed talking shop.
Piss on the UN.
15th Mar 2004, 03:38
Again, we seem to be agreeing vehemently. I have already acknowledged the circus revolving around Friday "Mosques" which are clearly preaching hatred and incitement to murder but I also point out the views of many Moslem friends out here who hold bin Laden in contempt and are disgusted at the way their religion has been hijacked (How publicly they can state those views is another matter) . I don't think the rhetoric in the Koran should be interpreted so literally although of course Arabic isn't my mother tongue. A quick glance at the Bible will show certain references to fire and the sword and not a few incidents of Fratricide, Rape, Incest, Murder etc etc OK a little glib, but I hope I get my point across.
I also condemned the hypocrisy and weakness in the West where "clerics" like Abu Hamza can spout their fascist, racist rubbish with impunity because of their ethnicity.
I also would like to point out that other former enemies are now friends, like the Russians who clearly posed a far greater danger to the world with their morally bankrupt communist regime and where a lot of the blame for South America and Africa's problems today could be laid quite reasonably. Why do you think every terrorist group in the world has such ready access to Kalashnikov's and RPG's for one very small example.
Your entrenched hatred of all things American makes debate with you pointless. I suggest you read French Imperial history and see where dead end Franco French blindness and rewriting of history takes you to (Napoleonic adventures, North African and Sub Saharan disasters, Indochine). You share a lot more with the US history than you dare admit. Iraq is rapidly approaching stability with the signature of the Constitution and charter for the rights of the Iraqi people and you choose to ignore the most momentous event for the people there because it doesn't fit with French jealousies of America.
15th Mar 2004, 08:56
It´s a shame to see how terrorists just need 72 hours to change the government for one of the biggest european countries.:(
Let´s see what happens now, how the socialists deal with the situation. In my opinion the governments need to apply iron hand with the killers, which I don´t believe to happen from now
It was Al Qaeda who won the elections.:mad: :mad:
15th Mar 2004, 09:13
I agree rodquiman, but were it not for Aznar's cynicism in continuing to blame ETA when all the evidence pointed away from them, he might not have handed such a victory to the terrorists.
15th Mar 2004, 09:18
Indeed that was stupid,especialy the bit about instructing Diplomats to push the ETA theory,politicians the world over seem to operate on the idea that the public never think things through for themselves.
15th Mar 2004, 09:49
Presumably we can now assume that this was Al Qaeda.
In which case, Washington and London next. Elections approach...........
15th Mar 2004, 09:56
Aznar was thrown out by the voters because he lied to the people and got Spain involved in a totally unnecessary war. Spanish people are the winners.
15th Mar 2004, 10:18
That is precisely correct etrang and has to be remembered.
His last reprehensible act, while scores of people were lying dead in Madrid morgues and many more were dying in Madrid hospitals, was to try and protect his party’s electoral chances by :-
A. Blaming ETA, in order to create a feeling of national insecurity.
B. Deflecting blame from the islamics, in order to disconnect the bombings from the situation in Iraq.
Cynical to say the least. Goodbye Partido Popular.
15th Mar 2004, 10:30
Supprised you are supprised at politicians lying gentlemen, we had a lady spin doctoring political pimp here suggesting bad political news should be rushed out here the day of 9/11 with the idea being of course that nobody would notice it in the coverage of the Twin Towers.
Politicians always lie, thats axiomatic, and one thing I can guarentee, your new lot will lie to you with the same enthusiasm as your last lot.
Im not going to support Aznar but I must say than ETA try to get a car wit 600 kg of explosives in to Madrid a 2 weeks ago and also that ETA try it to put several bombs in trains the 24 of december last year. So lately ETA has try 5 bombing acttacks in Madrid in the las few months.
So how are they going to think that it wasnt ETA? Just probability
15th Mar 2004, 10:41
Indeed that is true but they were unwise to be so definate so early,they appeared dowright belligerent in their insistance that it was ETA , so obviouslyand cynically using a tragety for political purpose,as somebody one said, you cannot fool all the people all the time.
15th Mar 2004, 10:41
Mr. Draper, sadly I can only wholeheartedly agree with you.
I am sure that I will come as no surprise to you that I am never surprised by politicians lying!! On the contrary, it is expected.
peb, the announcement that ETA was responsible, came as the debris was still floating down from the sky!!
At least the news I saw that morning they were saying that very high of probability. Anyway if the goverment want it they could wait to the after electiones to say that was Alcaeda, they could do that saying they can not give the info for national securiry or something stiupid like that.
I also think that politicians lie but I think that is not as much think (or I hope)
The only ones who had win something is PSOE and Acaeda
15th Mar 2004, 11:01
Until now, when there´s a terrorist atack at Spain, it´s allways supposed to be ETA behind it.
With the existing situation last 11 it would be reasonable to blame ETA at the first time, why? Because they hate Aznar and Partido Popular and would not be their first attempt to change the elections resuts, because they tried it with trains in the past, because of the type of explosive used...
I think that what most people in Spain thought when they new about the attack was it had been ETA, and the governmet also though that.
There were enough reasons to blame ETA (at first).
15th Mar 2004, 11:10
Think the idea being put forward here is, that for reasons of common sense, it would have been better to wait until they had a positive lead.
For political reasons it was deemed infinitely better to blame ETA as soon as possible.
That is the unforgivable part.
I can see that there is two ways to see the same thing but that in not a problem.
I just hope that PSOE do it well.
15th Mar 2004, 11:58
Terrorism is about violence.
It is not about politics, religion, national liberation or righting historical wrongs.
It is about its barbaric self.
The very fact that there was initial doubt as to who were the perpetrators of the Madrid atrocity shows just how futile terrorism is.
Our defences are democracy, justice, solidarity and tolerance.
Intolerance lies at the root of terrorism. It alone cannot be tolerated.
15th Mar 2004, 12:33
I have to say I am growing ever more sickened by the use of the deaths of the 200 people last Thursday as a way to make political points. I am not referring to the politicians I am talking about those on here on both sides of the political divide. This thread started ok with people posting their commiserations. That was good. Then it went down hill with those who fixated on the perpetrators rather than the victims.
Innocent people have been cut down too early. Lets concentrate on that. To fixate on those who committed the atrocity is to give them the attention they crave.
Those of the strong condemnation and outrage can I ask what you are doing about it?
As per usual it is left to Caslance to be the voice of calm and reason in the maelstrom of accusations, xenophobia and political point scoring.
I would also like to congratulate BlueDiamond for their post of 12/03/04 at 21:06.
15th Mar 2004, 12:37
Naw Hicksy, I think we will talk about it in any way we see fit.
We are all individuals, most of us are angry, we all react in different ways.
Who are you to set the agenda.
Your namesake would not be proud of you.
15th Mar 2004, 12:42
Of course the public knows that politicans are lying, but when it comes to war, or (mis)using a terrible attack, than it's a complete different ballgame. Aznar got settled for his politics by the Spanish public and it shows Blair what will happen to him eventually.
We are talking about the terrerist acttack and the consecuences. And obiusly the firts one are victims. But there is other ones.
One guy of my FTO has died in that attacks so believe me I dont forget the victims. I have been also giving blood as many people has done.
15th Mar 2004, 12:54
No more than your own points scoring I'm afraid. The forum is there for all points of view, even the wrong ones who disagree with yours.
15th Mar 2004, 13:27
The strong people of Spain have sent a mass message to the murderers. For that reason you should be very proud.
Muchas Gracias peb.
The shock of what happened last Thursday has still not worn off me. The more I read of how ten, that's ten, remote controlled bombs were detonated and that three, that's three, failed to detonate - for a total of thirteen sickens and , saddens me more. How can those responsible sleep soundly at night?? This thread has grown to 6 pages of mostly sound input, I look at what I first wrote:Unfortunately the luvvie, leftie, apologists will, after a few days, come out and explain the exact reasons why the "freedom fighters" or whoever are totally justified at striking back at a society that marginalizes them and their kin. They are oppressed, were abused since birth, are desperate, have no other option, choice yadda yadda yadda - just wait... Then Capt KAOS answered:you seem to be one sylable away from accusing luvvie, leftie, apologists of sympathy for these terrorists, Ozzy. I think you're out of line here. and then me old mucker GrandPa did me proud and spouted:It could happen only because Al Qayda zelots were able to pick up a dozzen of desperate jobless young uneducated inhabitants of Casablanca slums. ....sorry to say I told you so,:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :sad:
15th Mar 2004, 13:41
Paradoxicaly the people of Spain may have just sent exacty the wrong message to el queda, that murdering scum will be triumphant with the thought that they can bring about the fall of governments, and there is no doubt that the outrage coupled with the stupidity of the ruling political party did indeed cause them to lose.
Not that I have any objection to governments falling,or blame the Spanish people for their reaction, it does good to throw out the ruling party every now and again,but the timing was wrong, we have to hope that el queda didn't deliberatly time this attack to coincide with the elections, if indeed it was they.
Im really really proud of the union of spanish people against terror. I was in the strike in Madrid with the other 2.500.000 people from all partys and from other countrys. I also think that Europe is having and will have a good reaction against terror with out thinking if was ETA, Alcadea...
Grifo why did you say thanks to me? (I just dont untherstand it)
Anyway we are all more together than ever.
15th Mar 2004, 13:54
The 'murdering scum' did not cause the fall of the Spanish government. The Spanish people decided that they wished, in their hour of need, to be governed differently. That is their choice.
Assuming it was al-Quaeda, the bombs would have indeed been timed to coincide with the election. They are, unfortunately, not stupid.
It is Spain's ability to choose, its ability to be tolerant, that was the target of the bombs.
The Spanish people should indeed be proud of themselves.
15th Mar 2004, 13:56
That thought continues to lurk in my mind Drapsey and the only way I can come to terms with what happened in the Spanish Elections is to take on board the fact that was dispensed by etrang, earlier in the thread.
"Aznar was thrown out by the voters because he lied to the people and got Spain involved in a totally unnecessary war. Spanish people are the winners".
The reality is, that despite what the murderers may think or say, Aznar was on the ropes before the bombings.
All the stadistics in Spain were saying that PP was winning, they didnt know if would be by their own or shearing the power with others partys. Just look the spanish tv.
By the way Aznar is not any more head of PP, It is Mariano Rajoy
PSOE is saying already that he is going to bring the troops from Irak
15th Mar 2004, 14:11
I think many Spanish people had almost forgoten the war last wednesday.
After the bombs, two things could had happened:
1. If the bombs were from ETA, Rajoy would have won because they would have blame PSOE from dealing with the communist republicans in Cataluña.
2. If the bombs were from Al Qaeda, Rajoy would be over and Zapatero would win, because averybody would blame Aznar going to war.
It just was the second what occured.
15th Mar 2004, 14:15
...you can't read.
The quote you made with poor Grandpa english was about an example of attack against Morroccan Jews in Casablanca last year: IT IS AN EVIDENCE, related in all French and Morrocco media, that the perpetrators were "young, desperate, jobless, uneducated inhabitants of Casablanca slums", and they where recruited by Al Qayda zelots, as I said.
Now, if you cut and paste with the purpose to prove that saying the truth means one is "leftist, luvvy....", I leave it to your personnal evaluation.
Today I went to Spanish Embassy in Paris to pay respect to the victims and to Spain democracy. Paris underground stopped for three minutes, and people kept silent.
You should try to understand what changed the balance in Spanish elections (mainly because the usual non-voting people decided to vote against Aznar policy): it became more and more obvious that late PPE Government accumulated PR stunts to make sure the responsability of ETA could be maintained as long as possible in spite of the facts that were gathered day after day, hours after hours, which tend to attribute the massacre to Al Qayda.
-Direct call from Aznar to newspaper managers insisting on ETA guilt .
-Notes to Spanish Embassies to recall ETA culpability.
-Use of National and private TV network to spread the same message.
-Lies about the kind of explosives used in the trains.
You allready know (don't you) that an overwhelming majority of Spaniards disapproved Iraq's invasion and Spanish participation in this war.
It's clear that Spaniards were angry at this government maneuver, intended at fooling the voters and increase governemnt support, when it became visible that Al Qayda was more to be suspected than ETA.
It seems that liars have to pay in Spain....
...Only in Spain...?
You just made it on to my ignore list as well GrandPa, congrats on that. Shame on you for using the deaths of 200 people to try and further your incoherent, vitriolic, anti-American rantings - you make me sick:mad:
15th Mar 2004, 14:23
I spent the last 30 mins responding to you but the interim posts from Ozzy etc made wonder what is the point.
All I will say is that my sympathies and condolences to all those who have lost loved ones in this atrocity.
15th Mar 2004, 14:26
I admit I am not that well up on Spanish politics, but from what the commentators are saying here was that the incumbent party was most fancied to win another election, until this outrage.
Lots of people in the UK disagreed with that war (I am not one of them by the way)but I am willing to bet Tone will win the next election despite that,unlike the Spanish we do not have a credable alternative.
15th Mar 2004, 14:30
Paradoxicaly the people of Spain may have just sent exacty the wrong message to el queda Actually this has crossed my mind many times Herr Draper. But what's the alternative? The ME conflict on a worldwide scale? Bloody attacks (like these (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4567759§ion=news)) for many years? What if the public get's the idea that the governments can't protect them against attacks caused by an unnecessary war? Would you be prepared to take that risk? What about Bush's statement that the world is safer now? In fact it's far worse than before! (and that's what I told YOU so a year ago, Ozzy! :mad: )
15th Mar 2004, 14:31
You have seen that liars are rejected, so don't pretend I'm saying what I'm not saying and learn to read.
I hope we can tighten links between Europe people to face terrorism, because what happened in Madrid and even worse attacks may take place in Paris, London, Berlin, Roma..........
15th Mar 2004, 14:40
I hope we can strengthen links between the peoples of Europe, America and the world to fight terrorism. If we cannot strengthen our ties with the arab world to support peace, democracy, justice and tolerance, then we surely will lose the struggle against terrorism.
15th Mar 2004, 15:08
This fight is not against the Arab world but against a significant section of the Muslim world, the fight is with these Muslim Facists.
Totally agree with how impressive the Spanish people have been in their response. They have been strong and dignified.
15th Mar 2004, 15:12
...but I think it's easier to begin in Europe, because democracies are well alive there, and we must take care when coping with a number of countries where the word "terrorism" is instrumentalised (don't know if this word is used in your language..............Hu! Sorry! I didn't look where you live, have a chance you speak Flemish...........) to name everything which not obeying the dictatorship in place.
15th Mar 2004, 15:50
I said a while back that terrorism is about itself. Not about religion, politics, what have you.
Our struggle is with terrorism. We must not confuse this or we risk making enemies of those who might not be.
As you imply, terrorism is as intolerant as fascism. Working with the Muslim world to create a more democratic, tolerant landscape is perhaps the strongest weapon we have against al-Quaeda.
15th Mar 2004, 16:16
You can't work with these people though. Sadly I am now convinced of that. Everything we stand for is everything that they hate.
And where would these dicussions begin and end?
Solution in Palestine? Never gonna happen beacuse of criminals like Arafat and hatred being taught to young Palestinian children at an early age. How can they have negotiations with Israelis when they're taught from birth to hate Jews?
Western governments to remove themselves from the ME?
Not gonna happen either.
And they will always find some other reason to hate the West. France banning headscarves would be seen as a reason, the liberties women enjoy would be another etc etc
This branch of Islam has the spreading of their poisonous beliefs to the four corners of the world as their goal. How do we combat that?
15th Mar 2004, 16:21
Oneworld22 Solution in Palestine? Never gonna happen beacuse of criminals like Arafat and hatred being taught to young Palestinian children at an early age. How can they have negotiations with Israelis when they're taught from birth to hate Jews?
Solution in Palestine? Never gonna happen beacuse of criminals like Sharon and hatred being taught to young Israeli children at an early age. How can they have negotiations with Palestinians when they're taught from birth to hate Palestinians?
See - it works both ways? How about the western world stops trying to manipulate BOTH sides for it's own ends? Whether that be a stategic foothold in which to have forward military bases or simply oil, why don't we let them alone?
15th Mar 2004, 16:33
So, despite the weight of history, you thought it would be easy to work with the Palestinians?
And when you find the going was hard, what was your alternative?
The message of freedom, democracy, solidarity and tolerance plays in the Muslim world too. It is an extremely strong weapon. And we have no alternative.
15th Mar 2004, 16:50
PAXboy show me evidence where Israeli schools and religious institutions teach hatred in the same way that Palestinian schools do. Or for that matter the way children in schools throughout Iran, areas of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Nigeria etc are taught.
Show me any evidence that shows Jews teaching children about the glory of Martyrdom and the divinity of taking an infidels life in the name of Islam.
I'll be waiting a long time and you know it.
answer=42, how can you introduce freedom and democracy into countries who don't believe in them and whose divine beliefs run counter to out beliefs?
15th Mar 2004, 17:03
Please tell me:
Is there no-one in Algeria, in Morocco, in Palestine, in the Gulf States that wants freedom, that wants democracy?
How do you know?
Is the vast majority of the Turkish people not islamic? And have they not had democratic elections?
Are the forthcoming elections in Indonesia, with one of the largest muslim populations in the world, not fiercely contested (and rather interesting)?
Your beliefs are probably very different from mine. How do we live together? Is it not through democracy and your tolerance of my opinions?
Do you believe that we are locked into a never-ending struggle with the islamic world that can only be resolved by force? Is this not what al-Quaeda believes?
15th Mar 2004, 17:48
You're misunderstanding me, I'm not talking about the entire Islamic World, I'm talking about a significant section of it.
How can you deal with people who believe so strongly in their doctrines and who oppose everything that we hold dear?
If you think concessions and cosy lttle chats will stop Facist Islam you're very much mistaken.
And you talk about Indonesia? Are you serious? A hot bed of radicval Islam. And what about Malaysia, do you not recall the vile anti-semitic speech their leader made not long ago?
15th Mar 2004, 18:08
The result of the Spanish elections today will prove to be a turning point for Western Democracy in a negative way.
Al Qaeda very clearly targetted the Spanish owing to the Election and the clearly stated intention of the Socialists to pull out of Irag.
The outcome of the immediate knee jerk reaction will no doubt return to haunt the Spanish and indeed the rest of the civilised world in due course.
We must not make the mistake of under-estimating the scum of Al Qaeda. They are very clever and will see 'success' with their Spanish bombing campaign.
It suits them very much to have managed to topple (which is what they have done) a democratic Government which was opposed to the regime in Irag and could see what affect it was having on the World.
Having had one success rest assured that they will proceed forward along similar lines.
Unfortunately here in the West we allow open speech (something that no Islamic Governement will) and thus we not only have to contend with the serious threats of the Al Qaeda scum and their supporters but also the problesm form the 'enemy within', the Lefties who have never lost their love of oppressive regimes and still hark back to the 'Golden Days' of the Soviet Union.
The Left in the UK are quite happy to jump on any bandwagon, on any cause, and support any organisation who either furthers their left wing aims or causes problems to anyone on the Centre or Right.
Thus it is that we have unopposed immigration into the UK by people who have no allegiance or interest in the Country and are here either as economic migrants or to develop an anti-West agenda.
Any attempt at a reasoned argument is immediately shouted down as Racist, except that this is only a one way street, i.e. it is perfectly OK for any foreign extremist to come here and pedal anti UK or anti West views and opinions, and to preach these openly.
Any attempt to restrict this, or to take action against them is visiously 'denounced' by the Left.
Thus we have a situation where the likes of Abu Hamza can preach and rant and rave along lines which if I tried to do similar would result in my immediate arrest and imprisonment under Race Laws.
The deafening silence from the Muslim communities in the various European Countries needs no further comment, as they NEVER condemn Muslim orchestrated violence, however you try criticising one or refusing to let them into a shop or a school and WOW...wait for the outcry. Here in Birmingham we have the ridiculous situation of Roman Catholic schools forced to take Muslims whilst at the same time Muslim only schools adamantly refusing access to anyone who isn't a Muslim. Frighteningly the UK law enforces this, with the tacit agreement of the Socialist Government we have.
The point of this long rant you ask?
Simply this. Muslim orchestrated violence against Western civilisation is on the increase and will continue until the cancer is removed. This is unlikely in view of the lack of will power amongst our so called political elite.
The deafening silence of condemnation of Al Qaeda from the Muslim community says it all. One presumes that silence denotes assent.
Ann Leslie in the Daily Mail wrote today :-
"...In Al Qaeda and its associates we are dealing with a death cult, enemies of life and of humanity itself, who have said: 'We are not fighting for you to offer us something, but to eliminate you.'"Indeed it is vital to grasp that those who say Madrid was targetted only because Spain supported America are grieviously mistaken. The facts are we face something far bigger and far more terrifying.
"Months before the Irag war, Al Qaeda issued a stream of pronouncements listing Turkey, Spain, Italy and Vienna for attack- because they were once Muslim fiefdoms and are now 'occupied territories'. "
Radical Muslims refer in their sermons to the 15th-Century loss of Muslim Spain to Roamn Catholicism, which is why the Madrid attack has such resonance"
Al Qaeda is waging a war of religious conquest. Its fundamental aim is to purge the world of heretics and infidels, whom it defines as anyone who doesn't uphold the Islamic faith as laid down by itself.
Its long term strategy is to build an array of Islamic states to wage war on the US and its allies, in order to defeat the Western values by which it feels mortally threatened. It is therefore an attack on democracy.
One of its key strategists, Dr Ayman al-Zawahiri, has said that democracy is a new religion that must be destroyed by war, and anyone who accepts it is an infidel.
That is why the arguement that Madrid was targetted because of Irag os so profoundly off the mark.
Singapore's former Prime Minister Lee Kwan Yew has observed that the inroads made by Islamist terro in his own Country where Muslims have prospered, demonstrates the fallacy of thinking that if the West never acted agianst any Islamic state, Al qaeda would leave it alone.
Indeed Al qaeda has attacked many Countries - Morocco, the Phillipines, Algeria, Malaysia - which have had nothing to do with the decision to wage war on Iraq.
Al qaeda presents its own terrorist attacks as self-defence against an illusiry threat by the West against Islam.
Any attempt by the West to defend itself from such attacks is falsely characterised as another anti-Islamic onslaught...."
(Copyright - Daily Mail
I leave you to consider these words, and hope that those who continue to preach the Left wing mantra against the USA see the error of their ways. In saying that I am not wholly pro America. I think that there is a hell of a lot of problems in the world that have been either caused or made worse by them, however at the moment what is the alternative?.
The abyss of a return to the Middle Ages awaits.
15th Mar 2004, 18:09
I don't blame the Spanish people for the election result they did what they thought was right,but watching the news here I get the distinct odour of appeasement in the air,it didnt work in 38,and waving a piece of paper didn't stop Hitler,our politico's might be thinking of back pedaling now if their jobs are at risk.
You don't negotiate or treat with these filthy bearded cockroaches, how do you negotiate with people who's only agenda is to kill as many of your citizens as possible? you kill them and you burn out the places they breed.
The result may be satisfying to the Spanish people but it will also be very pleasing to el Queda.
Every European election will have that slime intent on influencing the result from now on.
15th Mar 2004, 18:45
As I stated previously, the connotations of the Spanish election results have been spinning in my head since the results were announced.
I now confess to have been looking too far on the bright side and probably deluding myself. I am, for better or for worse, a born optimist
I have tried to construct a reasonable argument against what you say Bletchley, and have failed signally.
You are right in significantly most of what you say.
A "balance" requires to be struck, fire must be fought with fire.
Those who adhere to the hollow belief /control system that islam has become, must be made accountable.
Who do they support and where do their allegiances lie.
I am told there are many good islamics, I have only met one, although he too was blinkered.
The good must seperate from the bad, for as they say in Scotland "If you fly wi the crows ye get shot wi the crows"
15th Mar 2004, 18:46
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I thought you were suggesting that the Muslim world is a homogeneous whole. Now I see that you are suggesting that 'a significant section' of it has these bigoted opinions. Does this not imply that a significant section of the Muslim world does not share these ideas?
So, is what you are saying that some Muslims are (more or less) tolerant and that others are intolerant bigots? And that violence is more likely to spring from the bigots?
(Incidentally, I believe that the word 'bigot' comes from fire and brimstone preachers hammering away 'By God' to their congregations. But let this pass).
Are the more tolerant Muslims to be found in one part of the Muslim world? Or are there mixtures of views in countries such as, for example, Indonesia? If so, this would explain how a few weeks ago I was in a bar in Jakarta where there were lots of pilots (which I am not) trying to pick up the local girls (which I was not). Or how a few years ago I got sloshed with a Muslim village chieftain (which is a tale for another thread). In a part of the country that is now fatal to visit.
In your view, is the divide between the more tolerant and the more bigoted Muslims fixed for ever?
I am a little unclear. Were the Spanish electors, in your view, appeasing the al-Quaeda terrorists or Saddamn Hussein?
15th Mar 2004, 18:55
Indeed not Mr 42 I meant the news media here in the UK you can see the way they are thinking and how they intend to spin this by the talking heads they invite on to their various news progs, The media luvies here have always been vehemently anti war, and any ammunition is grist to their mill.
As I said the Spanish people did what they thought was right but it has caused disquiet in me, perhaps the wise course would have been to delay the election,so that El Qeda would not see the result as a triumph and a victory for them which it undoubtedly is.
15th Mar 2004, 18:59
The crushing and unforgivable error (if it is fact an error) that the muslim world has made, is to allow itself to be hijacked by the extremists. The modern enlightened world has no part in this, muslims themselves are culpable.
The fact that the word islam is now virtually spat out of the mouth of the civilised world, is due to the weakness of the vast pool of "good muslims".
It should never been allowed to happen, it has happened and their control/belief system is being dragged through the mud.
They are to blame.
15th Mar 2004, 19:06
But surely, Mr Draper, al-Quaeda do not care who won the Spanish election? Do they not hate and despise us all equally?
Surely it is the fact that the Spanish people were able to make a choice that al-Quaeda would deny them that gave the Spanish people their triumph over al-Quaeda?
Therefore, would not any postponment of the election - of the choice of the people - have been a victory for al-Quaeda?
Some animals are cows. Some animals are dogs. Therefore all cows are dogs.
Some muslims are terrorists....
Some Christians were Fascists and Nazis. Must I treat all Christians as such? Or as responsible for their actions?
15th Mar 2004, 19:46
Bletchley, you repeat a statement that gets trotted out regularly here on PPRuNe. Again, today as many times before, it is blatantly untrue.
The deafening silence of condemnation of Al Qaeda from the Muslim community says it all. One presumes that silence denotes assent.
Television interviews taped after friday Mosque visit in various European capitals. All the people interviewed (muslims) condemned the terrorist atrocities in Spain.
It was one hour programme, and the interviews were extensive.
Bletchley, why the lie?
15th Mar 2004, 19:58
Well done the Spanish Mosem community then Mr Jetlegs, would that we had the same thing here in the uk, of the thousands of Muslim talking heads that have been trotted out on television since 9/11 I have yet to hear a single one outright condemn the terrorists, their condemnation always comes with a tag on the end,Isreali atrocities injustice downtrodden arabs ect blah blah blah.
We have had well known Moslum clerics openly preaching Jihad amd apparently openly recruiting for El Quada on our streets with seeming immunity in this green and pleasent land, and our news media seems more than happy to give them a voice.
15th Mar 2004, 20:13
Cows do not bark and dogs do not moo.
Non facsist Christians despise facist Christians and resist them with force.
Non nazi Christians lay down their lives in order to destroy the evil of nazi Christians.
I myself am not a Christian, but my father told me this.
15th Mar 2004, 20:34
I am glad that you can tell the difference between dogs and cows, between fascists and resistants.
Can you also tell the difference between people who set terrorist bombs and those who do not?
If you can tell the difference, why do you say:
Those who adhere to the hollow belief /control system that islam has become, must be made accountable.
A point of clarification please. Two sentences later, without changing your reference to Muslims in general, you say,
The pest control people must move in and the cockroaches must move out.
An interesting analogy. Cockroaches all look the same, don't they? Don't 'pest control people' kill cockroaches? And were you not talking about Muslims in general? And what exactly are you proposing to do to Muslims?
And are you aware that Hitler talked about jews in exactly the same way as you talk about muslims?
15th Mar 2004, 20:42
sympathies to all the families affected :-(
this thread is nothing more than an attack on islam.
i am not a muslim but if ETA had of conducted the attacks then im sure as heck that you wouldnt be blazing ETA half as much.
not all muslims are all the same. these are muslims that twist the genuine doctrine of islam to suit themselves.
i feel the way that things are going, especially in this country is that events like these will prompt more british people to join and support the BNP idiots. obviously im not white but i can see why they would want to support them in a way.
15th Mar 2004, 20:44
Put simply, unless the muslim community in general become the loudest voices protesting against the vile acts of their soul brothers, then without predjudice, they too will become victims of this holy charade.
I only say this because it is true.
Can you envisage a different course?
15th Mar 2004, 20:45
Thank you for pointing this out.
It was not my intention to lie merely to point out what the situation here in the UK is.
It is not necessary for me to lie or to attempt to twist the truth. Simply stating the facts is all I wish to do. I hold my own opinion but it is for others to make their own judgements based upon facts.
If what you say is true ( and I have no reason to doubt it) then all credit to those people, however we still wait to hear someone of importance in the UK Muslim community condemn ANYTHING that Al Qaeda have EVER done.
The biggest threat that our society now faces are the Muslim extremists and their silent majority sympathisers whose only wish is to enforce a totally alien faith and culture on me.
They have no desire for democracy, for religious tolerance or for equality. Take a look at how Muslims treat their women.
I am not a religious bigot. I work with many people from different cultures and nations, and many of them I admire immensely.
I have travelled throughout the world and hopefully am receptive to what other cultures have to bring.
I singly fail to see one modern benefit that an Islamic state has brought to the world but am happy to be corrected on this point.
The ONLY religion that does not preach 'love' for ones fellow man is the Islamic. It treats all outsiders as 'Infidels' who are lower in the order of life than the animals and therefore all Infidels should be put to death. Some religion eh?
Thank you for your comments. It gives me no comfort just a deep dread of what the future holds. At some point the West will have to stand up but I see the history of 1939 repeating itself.
Our democractic society and values mean that we cannot adopt the only solution with these people which is to eliminate them one by one.
The job of any form of defence is made harder by our Leftist and Liberal contingent. Truly one should fear for our future.
Does anyone think that the French new something prior when they instituted a search of their Railways?. Now there is a true nation of untrustworthies as the UK found to its cost both during and after the 2nd World War. Nice people individually but there is something in the unpleasent in the herd mentality.
They tried to do secret oil deals with Sadam which is why they were (and are) against the Irag war. Doesn't stop them bleating about being excluded from the repair contracts though!.
The French and one or two other misguided Countries feel that if they 'back away' from facing up to the Islamic threat that they will be left alone. Well we'll soon see............the clock is ticking.
As not for whom the bell tolls...it tolls for thee
15th Mar 2004, 20:46
i agree with you fully but i think that some muslim spokespersons already have condemned al-quaida. i remember seeing it on tv.
15th Mar 2004, 20:52
Perhaps like the brave spanish people in their beautiful cities they should be marching in their squalid, stinking, ghettos decrying the work of their true believer brothers, not one by one but ten thousand by ten thousand.
Nothing else will get them off the hook.They will be tarred by the same stick.
15th Mar 2004, 21:01
But not enough Muslims have done it Jeffrey S. And look at the UN, any debate on racism and proposals on how to tackle racism gets blighted because it turns into a soapbox for the most vile anti-Jewish bile from muslim states.
Muslim states spouting this filth seems to be accepted in todays world, why is this?
People will not be driven to the BNP and other groups. We all believe in freedom and democracy, these people don't. We are fighting religious facists here who despise our value systems.
Christians throughout the UK, the US and all over the world stood up to Hitler, a white leader leading a White European country and fought him to the bitter end. Why can Muslims not to the same to their radicals?
I agree that a significant section of Muslims do not agree with the radicals. But they have been too silent in saying so and condemning those facists.
We have to stand up to these facists and stand them down. You must realise that there is no hope for negotiaition and the free world where so many people sacrificed their lives to preserve cannot live side by side with a group that wishes to destroy our way of life.
Things have gone too far and it's time to stop pussyfooting around the issue, desperately trying not to offend anybody. The people of the western world have done nothing to deserve this hatred and these vile attacks.
15th Mar 2004, 21:09
And if their voice is not quite loud enough for you? And if you 'forget' that they condemned al-Quaeda on television yesterday? What will you do to Muslims you find at random in the street? Will it look exactly like the blood in Madrid?
We have a choice: tolerance or barbarism. Only intolerance cannot be tolerated.
15th Mar 2004, 21:14
Mr/Mrs Bletchley, as an apparent newcomer to Jet Blast you are perhaps not aware of the rules we apply. Please read them here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83225).
A smal refresher for the regulars; applying sweeping generalisations to people based on their nationality or religion is racism.
15th Mar 2004, 21:15
i actually agree with you fully on your comments!
what future does this world hold? i can honestly say blair and bush cannot sort it. noone can.
very worrying times. would u agree?
well said flapsforty.
15th Mar 2004, 21:20
We do indeed have a choice, we can either stand by and do nothing and wait for the next attack to hit London, Paris, Frankfurt etc or we can do something about it and get tougher and pressure the Muslim world to do something about these facists in their midsts.
This is not intolerance, don't dare try and brush those who are saying that these attacks have got to stop as being intolerant. This is about facing the truth. Not a very pleasant truth, but shutting your eyes and pretending it doesn't exist will solve nothing.
This is not tarring all muslims with the same brush and you know that. We have a problem with a significant section of that religion and we must deal with it.
15th Mar 2004, 21:31
Actually, my comments were aimed at the previous poster.
I disagree with much of what you say but I appreciate the respect with which you say it.
The struggle against al-Quaeda will be long and difficult. We can only win it if we do not make enemies of the moslem communities in our midst and around the world. I can only say that I am perhaps surprised about the respect that the (few) islamic countries that I have visited have for the UK. Perhaps it has something to do with the football.
The classic strategy is the only one that works: isolate the enemy, attract the neutrals to your side. Judging by this thread, we are in danger of doing exactly the opposite.
15th Mar 2004, 21:38
There have been many terrorist organisations and wars against them in the recent past, El Queda is unique in that it has no end product in mind,it has no purpose that I can see, at no point can its say to its followers lay down your arms our demands have been met, we have won, or we have reached a understanding with our enemy
It makes no difference whether we engage them in debate or not,it mskes no difference how we treat them they cannot be reasoned with, they must be removed, from this earth and removed ruthlessly and perminently.
15th Mar 2004, 21:42
La politique du pire, in French , the language of these dirty fellows, just next to the Arabs, who refuse to obey the orders of Big Brother.
The worst of the policy is openly supported on this thread by racists (Yes RACIST!).
They are not even able to see that if they make an ennemy of every Muslim (and every Arab is supposed to be a Muslim, even if he doesn't believe in any God, never prays and never goes to a Mosq, like a lot of them) their battle is lost because they push them in the arms of fundamentalists instead of making allies of them, and there is quite a number of them.
I could even read appeals for pogroms, like in Old Russia, or in Europe Dark Age.
Just fancy that and imagine the consequences: you will get this civilisation war wished by fundamentalists, both christian and muslim: it's there you can see that these two facets of the same ideology are a menace for humanity (just remember who blew the building in Oklahoma City, same madness and cruelty as in Madrid).
I'm sorry for you: nobody will enlist in your Crusade, and Europe will fight terrorism with the help of Arabs, Turks.... (Muslim or not!).
Hundreds of thousands Morroccans, Algerians and Tunisians fought against Hitler in WWII: let us be friend with their grandchildren and fight together fundamentalists and racists.
We will show you that we can live together believers or not.
There is no other way.
15th Mar 2004, 21:42
they must be removed, from this earth and removed ruthlessly and perminently.
whos gonna do this then?
noone has either the right or power to remove anyone from earth my man.
im going to bed now. this bigotism must end on either side. not all muslims think the same
15th Mar 2004, 21:50
We made a fair job of removing nazism from the face of the earth, Jeffrey, if you have a virus or micro organism that threatens your life, you do your best to destroy it, this is a simple evolutionary thing, either they die or we do,no room for sentiment here, El Queda must be laughing into their beards at statements like yours Jeffrey.
15th Mar 2004, 22:01
TD / 1W22
I started by saying that terrorism is not about politics, not about religion. This is doubly true about al-Quaeda. They have almost no 'political' demands at all: the only significant one was that the US military leave Saudi Arabia - which the US is doing!
al-Quaeda is nakedly about power. It is totalitarian. Our aim is clear.
It is disliked by most Moslems - how far have they got in Palestine? These same moslems may dislike us.
Let us face the fact that al-Quaeda can afford to buy a lot of co-operation. Our objective must be to ensure that al-Quaeda cannot get this co-operation, cannot link with other movements. And this means support for economic and social development in Moslem countries, as well as military co-operation. This is how to get co-operation, not a simple demand 'you are either with us or against us'.
If we exclude those who have no love for us, we deny ourselves potential partners in the struggle.
Tolerance is indeed a weapon.
15th Mar 2004, 22:38
I was in NYC on 9/11 and saw the second plane hit WTC1. I still am.
This political and social idealism you talk about isn't Al Queda's goal, their goal is to destroy the Western Economy as we now know it.
During the 9/11 attacks, MANY muslims were seen dancing for joy on the roofs of apartments buildings in Jersey City, right across the Hudson River from New York.
The major difference as I see it between the Western Civalization and Al Queda is the value of life. The West values it greatly and the muslims see death as a way to move to a higher plateau.
Don't know how to solve that one unfortunately!! Apart from wiping out Al Queda by whatever means necessary to preserve our way of life.
From the message (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3509556.stm) sent to the Spanish government by Al Qaeda:
You love life and we love death
That's pretty clear to me. There is no talking to people like that.
Al Qaeda must be isolated from recruits and funds and destroyed.
<deleted as I don't see the point>
16th Mar 2004, 01:15
I was going to say something along the lines of:
Democracy represents the will of the majority while assuring the safeguard of minorities. You have a voice, use it responsibly. Know how and where your money's being spent.
Terrorism is not an answer, it is a fatality. In response to the action and/or inaction of others. They have no voice and usually nothing to lose.
Non-democracies are basically ex-terrorists in power.
but I have given up because there are too many bigots and extremists on all sides...:rolleyes:
16th Mar 2004, 03:19
This case must be cut and dried if I am agreeing with One World....
"I bring you peace in our time."
The result of the Spanish election is to condemn the citizens of Warsaw, Prague, Kiev, and other allied nations to explosions, violence and death. Al-Quada won when Spain capitulated. Now other nations will pay the price of terrorism.
This begs the 2 questions:
1) What will happen when the US is hit again? My guess is that the American people will want more blood, B-52's will thunder and Special Ops will strike, and Bush will be re-elected (Americans traditionally associate Republicans as the "Daddy" party and more responsible on national security.") And no, I am not turning this into a Pro-Bush - Anti-Bush rant - just stating my opinion.
2) What will happen when London is hit? Will it strengthen Blair or hurt him? I'll leave that analysis to our English brethren on this board.
Make no mistake - an act of terrorism has led to a government change and the withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Al-Quada will be emboldened by this and strike again.
16th Mar 2004, 03:29
It always seems a shame to me that a great philosophy or religion is hijacked and misinterpreted. There are countless examples, also idealogical principles seem to suffer the same fate. It's all to easy to have simpletons then point the finger at the whole system rather than vilify the appropriate individual/group.
And I am not so sure that Nazism has been expelled, driven underground perhaps.
While it's all extremely sad, one must say it seems a very clever technique to completely cause chaos. From the mindset of "we are fighting a war" its very efficient given the resources available to the enemy. And I would also suggest that there must be a lot of people with huge grievances if they are willing to blow themselves up. I don't think its as simple as saying the Koran is responsible, maybe its abused by the purveyors of fanaticism but you would need more reason I am sure. Even guaranteed a spot in paradise there's no real hurry to get there without some other gripe.
Finally none of these thoughts should be misinterpreted as supporting those actions.
16th Mar 2004, 04:29
Bletchley:If what you say is true ( and I have no reason to doubt it) then all credit to those people, however we still wait to hear someone of importance in the UK Muslim community condemn ANYTHING that Al Qaeda have EVER done.Perhaps you should pay more attention to the news. They have done so, and frequently. But why do they need to? Do we require the Moderator of the Church of Scotland to appear on TV and condemn every act of violence any of his church members carry out?Take a look at how Muslims treat their women.What a nasty little generalisation. It is clear you know next to nothing about Islam, and have never been in an Islamic house. Keep your evil, nasty insinuations to yourself. By the way, was it you who wrote earlier in this thread words to the effect of "The only good muslim is a dead Muslim?"The ONLY religion that does not preach 'love' for ones fellow man is the Islamic. It treats all outsiders as 'Infidels' who are lower in the order of life than the animals and therefore all Infidels should be put to death. Some religion eh?Time to read the Qu'ran and to go to a Mosque and ask the Imam what muslims actually believe rather than rely on your own prejudices.
El GrifoPerhaps like the brave spanish people in their beautiful cities they should be marching in their squalid, stinking, ghettos decrying the work of their true believer brothers, not one by one but ten thousand by ten thousand.
Nothing else will get them off the hook.They will be tarred by the same stick.I refer you to my point to Blotchley, above. Did christians march in their thousands every time an IRA bomb went off? Who marched in Oklahoma City? Are they, then, all tarred with the same brush?
No. This is simply an attempt to make collective guilt for the entire muslim community out of nothing. My wife is Muslim. She marched (as did I, my step-daughter, and millions upon millions of others) in opposition to the US-led war on Iraq. No, she didn't march in opposition to the Madrid bombings. Is she then tarred with the same brush? You would like to make my wife and all other muslims worldwide, guilty by implication/association? This is nothing but racist claptrap and bigotry. If you don't stand up and declare you are with us, you must be against us. And what is my wife's offence? Failing to turn up and shout loud enough at the public lynchings you have arranged. It would appear that the entire Spanish people are guilty of the same thoughtcrime.
46DriverThe result of the Spanish election is to condemn the citizens of Warsaw, Prague, Kiev, and other allied nations to explosions, violence and death. Al-Quada won when Spain capitulated. Now other nations will pay the price of terrorism.How on earth do you work that out? How exactly, do you consider Spain to have "capitulated"? Probably you feel that they are not entitled to bring their troops home from Iraq. Your American pride is hurt. Or do you feel that the change of government was capitulation? I see results in Spain rather differently. Opposition to the government's stance over Iraq was vindicated by the bombings. Spain made herself a target. You blame the Spanish people for not wanting to be a target? You would clearly prefer bombs there to bombs in Washington. How dare they take cover and stop standing between you and that bullet???? What self-serving claptrap.
16th Mar 2004, 07:14
Whether you like it or not, these terrorists (unlike your examples) are trying to appropriate a religion, and to claim their acts are in its name. What I think people want to see is for the ordinary, moderate, members of that religion to make it crystal clear to the extremists and terrorists that they cannot any religious support or justification.
Maybe there's a media agenda in all this in not giving due prominence to condemnations from the muslim community, who knows. But extremists, fundamentalists and the terrorists are all basically undemocratic, and work by the intimidation of the wider religious community. Time for that community to stand up to the intimidation, before some of the more unpleasantly racist opinions hinted at here start to gain wider acceptance.
Btw, re. treatment of women, how about their treatment in certain Gulf countries, and one in partiuclar that the terrorists look to for their theological inspiration?
16th Mar 2004, 07:34
How simple does it have to be? Spain was on its way to re-elect a pro-US govt, then Al-Quada strikes and kills hundreds immediately before the election. Spain then votes out the pro-US govt and votes in a govt that does exactly what Al Quada wishes. Even the International Herald Tribune sees it that way: http://www.iht.com/articles/510364.html
If Spain had voted out the conservative govt, that was one thing. To have the conservatives ahead in the polls, have the bombs explode, and then immediately vote out the conservatives in favor of a govt that does exactly as the terrorists wish is quite another.
While your wife may be Muslim and views the world as you do, likewise my girl is Czech and sees the Spanish as appeasing Al Quada the same way Chamberlain appeased Hitler at the expense of her country.
PS: It seems as if the Iraqis themselves think the war was worth it according to the latest BBC polls. Kinda blows a big hole in your anti-war diatribe, doesn't it....
16th Mar 2004, 07:56
Apologists for terror and the claimed justification for it should realise that rational debate and negotiation is impossible with an implacable enemy who is dedicated to your destruction.
The problem is that years of appeasement and successful gain for perpetrators of hundreds of such atrocities has made terrorism a functional tool of all marginalised minority groups who either can't or won't be involved in a democratic process.
Just watch the impotent public and media blame culture shift from our befuddled politicians to the real perpetrators of murder when the scale and frequency of the attacks reaches critical mass and impinges on these very freedoms we hold so dear, but on our very own private doorsteps. Twenty or so such attacks in Europe on the scale of Madrid will see moderates quite willing to drop a nuke on Tora Bora to send the message and accept the civilian casualties there instead of their own back yard.
You can't blame decent minded people for not comprehending the agenda of such virulent hatred. The Spanish people are in shock and it is too easy to blame the attacks on who else but America again. Put the blame squarely where it belongs, with the mass murderers !
Let's see the effect the "Stop the War" posters and banners have on Al Qaeda.
16th Mar 2004, 08:40
Huggy, cast your mind back to the dark days of the Northern Ireland "troubles" as HMG liked to call them.
Thousands of ordinary women and children out on the streets, weekend after weekend, condemning the terrorists from both camps and disassociating themselves from the violence, making it clear that it was not being perpetrated in their names.
It that way, the people of Northern Ireland held their dignity and as such, have never been bunched together with the atrocities of the few.
"Do we require the Moderator of the Church of Scotland to appear on TV and condemn every act of violence any of his church members carry out"
Lost me on this one. Apart from the odd skirmish at the Old Firm football games I am not sure which acts of violence he would have to apologize for.
16th Mar 2004, 08:43
I wonder what the Spanish people would have voted if Aznar would not have blamed the ETA until he was probably the last one who wanted to believe that. It's a fact that within an hour the Spanish police and intelligence (who are well infiltrated in the ETA) knew already with a 99% certaincy that it was not an ETA attack. This was known to the government who simply because of political reasons did not passed that information to the public. In fact many journalists in Spain and abroad were being called with the instruction to blame the ETA. Police and intelligence sources, pissed off by these actions, then informed the press about the real cause.
It's THIS blatant lie and all the lies around the Iraq war that made the Spanish public to dump Aznar and his party, sick and tired of all the manipulations.
Few people protested when the US attacked Afghanistan after 9/11, yet few people saw the connection between international terrorism and Iraq. Instead of attacking the real enemy international terrorism, people's lives, time and enormous amounts of money were lost in a unnecessary, disastrous war, allowing Al Qaeda to gain power, fuelling the hate and allowing to bring disunity in the world.
Whatever the strategy of the US is to fight international terrorism, until now it's a complete failure.
The Lie Factory (http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2004/01/12_405.html)
16th Mar 2004, 11:26
I cannot let those comments pass.
As to paying more attention to the news well I do, hence my comment. A recent interview where the question was asked of a leader resulted in a non-condemnatory answer. This seems to happen every time.
Please let me know which programmes or newspapers carried denounciations. I have not seen or heard them yet. In the event that I am correct then I will withdraw my comment.
Al Qaeda are running a Holy War which has as its goal the domination of other faiths. I am not aware of any other faith that preaches that believers of different faiths should be put to death. Suggest you re-read the Koran. Alternatively please say why there is not any public emphasis that this view is incorrect. It is after all preached by those that are Islamic Imams. Abu Hamza for one.
Re women. What I said was not 'a nasty little generalisation' at all. If you were more informed you would know that the treatment of women is even exercising debate within the Muslim community.
I have and will NEVER say that 'the only good Muslim is a dead Muslim'. I find your assertion grossly offensive and uncalled for.
There are many good Muslims and as far as I am concerned they can live in PEACE. I have no interest in causing them harm. I only wish to be left to worship my own God.
I fail to see why Al Qaeda should feel the need to attempt the worldwide implemetation of a creed that the West does not share.
Both Muslim and Christian and Jew need to resolve this issue pretty damn quick. The fact that so many on here do not feel that the religious leaders have made a strong enough or public enough denounciation should not be put down to Racism.
I see that you have adopted the classic approaches to any question being raised about Muslim terrorism. Criticise the person making a view, add in a little unpleasantness, spice up with suggestions if racism, misuse statements and provide partial quotes.
You say that your wife marched in opposition to the Irag War but not in opposition to the Spanish Attrocities. I presume you didn't quite mean to say that in the way that it appears. As written it pre-supposes that there was a 'march' in opposition and clearly indicates that she did not attend. This sends out a message that I presume you did not intend.
16th Mar 2004, 11:44
Sorry, haven’t been able to wade through all posts, but way back on page 2 George Semel made the most sensible contribution I’ve seen to date on this subject This sort of stuff has less to do with Religion and more about how some sociopaths, hide behind a religion.Unfortunately, he undid that very astute comment with his next statement where he said that “Spain is not going to back off”.
Time may prove him to be right after the new Spanish PM gets his head around what’s really involved in being in government as opposed to being in opposition. However, the PM-elect’s immediate announcement that he will be pulling Spanish troops out of Iraq proves how incredibly sophisticated and far-thinking the shadowy Al Qaeda leadership really is. Let’s face it – with impeccable timing, both in the setting of the explosives and even more importantly, in taking responsibility for the bombing just before the polls, they’ve quite literally changed a government in an ‘enemy’ country with nothing more than a dozen explosive-laden backpacks - and a willingness to use them.
Everyone, including the voters of Spain, have the right to their opinions, but if anyone in Spain voted for the Socialists in the hope that “they (Al Qaeda) will leave us alone if we leave them alone” they are horribly misguided. As was quoted in today’s Daily Express, Al Qaeda have announced in their latest audiotape that they don’t want to sway our opinions with these bombings, they want to destroy our way of life.
George Semel quite correctly goes on to say that the Spanish removed every Muslim (and Jew, b.t.w.) from Spain 500 years ago in what was an ‘ethnic clearance’ that many Westerners of today would find utterly abhorrent and totally unacceptable. Unfortunately, there are many people on what I can only call ‘the other side’ who are so polarised that they would not have any such qualms should they ever find the boot on their foot. Time will tell if that ever comes to pass anywhere in Europe, (“impossible”, I hear some say – but four years ago, how many would have believed the world we find ourselves in today?), but I suspect quite a few Israelis can see such a result if they ever find themselves in the same position they currently hold the Palestinians.
My main fear is if there is a “white” backlash against “the Muslims” in the West, the BNP bovver boys will attack the most visible, and therefore, almost certainly the most innocent, in the Muslim – AND OTHER – ethnic communities, like corner shopkeepers etc. (Remember the Sikhs who were attacked after Sept 11th in the US?)
Al Qaeda seeks to polarise the disparate communities that make up most Western countries, and in particular to drag back “into the fold” the vast majority of Muslims who live law-abiding lives within our society. If such people are attacked or victimized by misguided knee-jerk legislation it will be Al Qaeda’s biggest success. But while we’re on the subject of ‘knee jerk reactions’, in the case of Abu Hamza and the like – my guess would be that the vast majority of Muslims in the UK would welcome his immediate deportation with as much enthusiasm as almost everyone else in the country.
16th Mar 2004, 11:54
“Nice people individually but there is something in the unpleasent in the herd mentality.”
Please forgive me for thinking of English football supporters.
Would you please stop using words out of context. You have done it several times in this thread alone. In your most recent post you should have used the word “totalitarian” in place of “fascist”.
As to the points both of you make, between the two of you and several others you have managed to turn a thread of condolence to the relatives and friends of the dead in Madrid into a hate-filled, xenophobic diatribe. Well done. Hope you feel happy and proud of yourselves. I wonder how you would feel if someone on here used the tragic killing of a family member as a political and religious point scoring exercise.
16th Mar 2004, 12:01
‘Grandpa’, when I read your many posts, I think I could safely predict your reaction if George Bush miraculously walked across the Potomac River – it would start with “George Bush Fails to Swim Potomac!!!!”
Thank you for that informative posting BHR:rolleyes:
It is clear that we are dealing with Islamic militants, a subset of all those that ascribe to Islam. I assume it is a minority but I have no statistics to back that up. It is also clear that those Islamic militants do not represent a nation state, therefore there are no international coneventions or rules to apply or bodies within which to negotiate a settlement with those militants who commit terrorist atrocities. In fact as the audio tape from Al Qaeda stated, these terrorists love death as we love life. Even if they granted to negotiate, their opening gambit, that they want to destroy everything that does not adhere to their interpretation of Islam, makes a negotiated settlement seem impossible.
All of us, from all nations and religions, who abhor what happened in Madrid last week and who oppose Islamic militant terrorism should close ranks and do what it takes to exterminate as many of that filth from the face of the earth.
16th Mar 2004, 12:20
A grossly offensive response.
Why is it that we always end up with comments such as yours whenever we try to have a rational debate?.
I suppose that the Spanish Attrocities were carried out with a political motive that was devoid of any religious basis then?...That they were carried out by Christians who wish to impose Christainity throughout the world?
Presumably you disagree that Al Qaeda is a threat to everyone, and by that I include Muslims.
Exactly what part of my last post did you not understand.
To re-emphasise for your benefit.
I have no problem with Muslim people. What I DO have a problem with are the rabble who are trying to impose their religious belief systems onto people who do not wish it and are prepared to bomb their way around the world in order to achieve this aim.
I do object to giving sanctuary to people such as Abu Hamza who hate everything that the West and the UK in particular stand for, who preach 'hate-filled, xenophobic diatribe' but are quite happy to live at my expense whilst trying their best to destroy my world.
I look forward to your denounciation of that individual and the others of a similar ilk.
Any form of opposition to this usually results in the Stalinist style denouncement of Racism.
Clearly anything that we now say will immediately be targetted as a Racist comment?
You presumably would prefer that we did not have the debate at all?
In so far as your comment about English football supporters. Yes I am not afraid to agree with you on that. You are correct.
A well considered and thoughtfully written reply if you don't mind me saying.
16th Mar 2004, 12:51
you have managed to turn a thread of condolence to the relatives and friends of the dead in Madrid into a hate-filled, xenophobic diatribe.
Agree 100% with you BHR, I am pretty disgusted with certain postings and posters on here.
Have requested locking/deletion as a result of a total lack of respect for the dead shown.
16th Mar 2004, 12:55
Agree upon that Ozzy. But isn't that about time after 2,5 year of wasting time and money? Spain and France had tremendous success in a cooperative operation to round up ETA in the past coupla years. Something that has not been covered by the press. I'm quite positive that international terrorism can be fought to a high level of success if it isn't used for a someone's own unilateral agenda. Until now Al Qaeda is cunningly using the diversity in the world. Fighting terrorism is a completely different war than state against state. It's about time that US/UK realise that and put more money, effort and personal into that area than funding JDAM 3.0 or Star Wars 4.2 or torpedoing the UN....:rolleyes:
16th Mar 2004, 13:03
Why have you retreated to the high ground seemingly accepting that your role is to point out spelling, syntax and grammatical errors from other contributors ? You seem to be bored with the actual debate and prefer to engage in semantics.
We may not see eye to eye, but you (and many other ppruners) have made me think on quite a few occasions about my own black and white objectivity and the necessity for me to think in less than abstract terms in my everyday life. It is to your credit that you clearly cannot comprehend the motive behind these atrocities but we should make allowances for natural human reaction and emotions to enter into the debate.
This thread is not as you say a condolence thread; there are other ways to express our sympathy and solidarity with our Spanish cousins - I have done just that this morning with serving officers here who are hard as nails and very angry at this assault on their people. Extremely Angry....... !
That said, we should accept that the Spanish people have the democratic right to expect their politicians to be honest with them. Once the implications of this attack on them have sunk in you may see some moderation of the quite human, knee jerk reaction to a shocking event.
What is disturbing is the normal media over indulgence and speculation, and to my personal view the distraction by sleight of hand leading to the blame being placed wrongly (by all concerned) on another victim of this fascist cancer.
I think we are in agreement Capt.KAOS but I don't know I would say that 2.5 years have been wasted, if we look to Afghanistan I'd say that was not wasted and better still it is a multi national effort, for example there is quite a contingent of French troops in there along with the US, UK and other nations. You are right, some of our successes against the terrorists are never reported.
16th Mar 2004, 13:23
I have my own views on this subject like everyone, and while you may disagree with the style of the argument so far, I beg you to withhold the censorial pen. Both sides of the argument for mine are being put forward, with odd exceptions, in an honest, truthful and reasonable way. The attempted deviations from the path are, if anything, coming from the side I would normally expect to support.
Various arguments on both sides have made me frown and consider my own position and I believe that is surely the essence of a good debate. In contrast to the banalities recently on display in JB, this thread is a gem, the like of which I haven't seen since the Irish thread of a few years ago. Please let it run.
16th Mar 2004, 13:52
Ozzy, well obviously I was referring to Iraq. As for Afghanistan, although not quite a success story, I would still give it the benefit of the doubt, time will learn whether it will drop back to a narco- or Taliban kind of state, or finally people will enjoy, more or less, democracy. France and US can perfectly work together, see Haiti ;).
16th Mar 2004, 13:55
Completely agree with you on the merits of this thread across the spectrum of views and emotions. The best tribute we can pay is caring for ourselves and our fellow human beings ! Something alien to terrorists and psychopathic killers dressed up in a false cause.
I had a point edited earlier which on reflection probably deserved moderating if not outright removal but the gist of it was that the terrorists actually enjoy this carnage ! They are lower than scum of the earth and if they genuinely believe in a twisted religious deity which calls for and permits such atrocities, then they are lost souls.
By the way, Irish thread ? Are you spinning a yarn ?
Lots of Afghanis think the removal of the Taliban from any kind of power is a very positive step !
Also, just try to remove the Kalshnikov culture from these tribesmen in anything less than three generations and you'll be lucky. People who play their brand of polo with the heads of captured Russian kids are not going to join "our" civilisation for a wee while.
Another point worth noting is indeed that the shock and awe campaign in Iraq actually worked so these smart munitions are very welcome provided they are targeted at the bad guys.
The post war critique is aimed at holding down the peace in an area which could start a fight in an empty house, whether it is tribalism, religion, outright mafia style crime, religion, culture or downright long held vendettas ! Try nailing a jelly to the wall !
What is amazing now is the growing concensus, home grown, that the diverse groups in Iraq can run their own affairs and the Brits and the Americans can leave soon please ! I'm on my way home this summer !
16th Mar 2004, 14:21
Would you please tell me who you think you are to go around telling me what I should be saying? That's just ridiculous.
Read my posts carefully, I am not tarring all Muslims with the same brush, I am specifically talking about a section of the Muslim religion that are engaged in terrorist activities and those Muslims that support it. And by support I include all Muslims who engage in anti-semitic and anti-christian rhetoric.
This is not hi-jacking a thread of condolence, I am quite sure the families of those butchered will want to know who was responsible and why.
Look at the definition of fascism,
"dictatorial movement: any movement, tendency, or ideology that favours dictatorial government, repression of all opposition, and extreme nationalism"
Does that seem accurate with regards to nations and believers of strict Shari'ia law?
This is about religion, slyly pretending otherwise will not solve this issue. Trying to cast off OBL and his associates as political terrorists is false. They take their beliefs from the Koran which lays out the doctrine of Ji'had. It is their belief that they are strictly following the beliefs as laid down in the Koran and by Imams and Caliphs since then.
Answer me this, why can't Muslim states like Indonesia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria etc come together and issue a joint statement denouncing this poisonous section of the Islamic faith and disowning them? Why can't they come together and denounce the whole concept of "glorious martyrdom" as being unacceptable in the 21st century.
There are lots of horrific practices the Christian and Jewish faiths did centuries ago which are now abolished. Why can't muslims follow suit?
well obviously I was referring to Iraq. Sorry I thought you were referring to Afghanistan as the Iraq war is only 1 year old this week while the Afghan incursion has been going since the 9/11 atrocity. I would say it is a success with the final prize being OBL's head and apparently that is very close with a spring offensive planned. But the info is that he is boxed in in a particularly treacherous region of the Afghan/Pakistan border. It's only a matter of time. The French and US are working well together in that region. Don't want to get into Haiti on this thread - the circumstances and objectives are not comparable so raising it as an example is not relevant.
16th Mar 2004, 15:57
The development of Lethal Technology combined with the development of communication technology have meant that only in the last few decades has there been the means to carry out the co-ordinated terror attacks of Sept 11th and Madrid.
The Koran and Mulim fundamentalism (along with the Bible and Christian fundamentalism) have been around for centuries. During those centuries the current scenario has been played out on a smaller scale several times before.
The difference now is that the ability to cause widespread death and destruction is available to the terrorist and the liberal western style democracies are found to be weak and very vulnerable to attack.
There is no current way of fighting the above combination of circumstances. The US led way of attacking countries is patently not working. The british government's appeasement (towards the IRA) process is not totally working and does not apply to the present situation, in that Al-Qaeda have no demands that we can possibly accept.
A new method of working in which once again 'Hearts and Minds' is almost number 1 priority has to be devised. I do not envy Bush, Blair et al in trying to sort this mess out.
We need one respected muslim country/leader/Imam/Ayatollah to lead the fight internally within Muslim against the radical element. We need to right some of the perceived wrongs caused by the US and UK's wayward (at times) foreign policy so that legitimate grievances are addressed and the whole Islam Radical theology is spotlighted and side issues of Palestine/Israel etc are not thrown into the same melting pot.
When everyone can see the pure hatred these radical muslims display to fellow man then perhaps the liberal left will realise that we cannot bargain with these people. We must sideline them in their own communities and then hunt them down. Beat them by intelligence gathering. Make them social pariah's in their own countries and religions.
Difficult to achieve. Any ideas?
16th Mar 2004, 16:02
To deal with your last point first I am more than happy to have the debate otherwise I would not be here.
Let me state clearly for the record anyone making racist statements no matter creed, colour or religion should be prosecuted within the law. This includes Abu Hamza. The defence used several times on this thread that he is racist so I can be does not work. Racist is racist. It is always bad, wrong etc.
Lets treat Al Qaeda, as they are criminals. Lets not give them free PR but continually spouting their “agenda”. I would move that everyone (media, governments, etc) start referring to them as a criminal organisation rather than a terrorist one. Al Qaeda is not about religion. The use of religion is simply a means to an end. It is simply a quirk of fate that the religion of the region is Islam and that of the west is predominantly Christian. We would be in the same boat if the religions were reversed and OBL and Al Qaeda were Christian fundamentalists attacking the decadent Islamic cultures of the West.
If, as you and many others have said, the Muslim community are not doing enough to distance themselves from Al Qaeda, then lets help them out. No one refers to the Mafia as “a Catholic terrorist organisation” so lets try the same with Al Qaeda. Rather than referring to them as Muslim fundamentalists simply refer to them as an “organised criminal gang”.
I am aware that this does not deal with Al Qaeda itself but hopefully what it will do is greatly reduce the recruiting ability of Abu Hamza and the like. Let me explain that further. Imagine a Muslim youth (16-17) 10 years from now. I envisage two scenarios.
Scenario 1 – Ten more years of fear mongering about “Muslim Fundamentalists” and “Jihad Warriors” has turned the UK into a racially divided and intolerant nation. Our imaginary youth has grown up hearing at every outlet and turn the name of his religion used as an insult. At his mosque an Abu Hamza-type character approaches him with tales of the struggle of Al Qaeda, Hezbollah etc. He is told of his “duty” and “destiny” to be a martyr for the cause.
Lets see if there could be another way,
Scenario 2 – Al Qaeda marginalized as a “rogue criminal gang” for a decade. Positive media use of terms “Muslim” and “Islam” in the same vein as “Christian” and “Christianity”. As a result our youth grows up with a positive attitude towards the rest of the world. Now, at his mosque an Abu Hamza-type character approaches him with tales of the struggle of Al Qaeda, Hezbollah etc. He is told of his “duty” and “destiny” to be a martyr for the cause.
Which world would we rather live in?
Which one are we currently in the process of creating?
Let me say out loud for the benefit of the rabid right neocons out there, Scenario 1 does not give justification for suicide bombers etc. It is simply used as an illustration.
Why Iraq? you've asked several times.
Abdul Rahman Yasin: 93 bombing of WTC. Yasin fled to Baghdad after the attack, where he was given sanctuary and lived for years afterward.
Khala Khadar al-Salahat: Semtex explosive used to blow up Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. Al-Salahat was in Baghdad last April and was taken into custody by U.S. Marines.
Abu Nidal: whose terror organization is credited with dozens of attacks that killed over 400 people, including 10 Americans, and wounding 788 more. Nidal lived in Baghdad from 1999 till August 2002, when he was found shot to death in his state-supplied home.
Abu Musab al Zarqawi
Ramzi Yousef '93 WTC bombing. Entered US with Iraqi passport.
Known knowns,as Rummy puts it.
One of my favourite blogger happens to be this man (http://timblair.spleenville.com/) and he lists "ask an imam" link. Interesting stuff.
An other guy has been arrested, he is from Argelia. He was arrested in Pais Vasco.
Im afreid that 201 has died so far.
16th Mar 2004, 17:34
Excellent post DeepC.
You're right, finding this Islamic Leader is exactly what's needed. But, where can we find this Muslim leader who can lead the fight to marginalise these groups?
That's the million dollar question and I don't have a clue.
16th Mar 2004, 17:35
Exquisitely obscure, Nani!!! :D Bless your heart!!!
OK - let's get this straight, so I can be sure that it isn't just me.....
Al Qaeda planted the bombs in Madrid to ensure that those hot-blooded Spaniards would elect a sympathetic Socialist government out of fear of further attacks.
Oh, to have the lofty Olympian perspective that comes with such certitude.
I don't suppose it's occurred to anyone that Mr Aznar may have been on his way to enforced retirement anyway, or do we really believe that the Spanish - a proud and noble people sadly well used to terrorist atrocities - are that easily intimidated and weren't swayed at all by the ghastly spectacle of their Government attempting to make political capital out of the slaughter of hundreds of their compatriots by psychopathic criminals?
And while we're on the subject, some of the contributors to this thread, while clearly and understandably angry about the terrible events in Spain (and who in their right minds wouldn't be?), should sit back and think carefully about what it is they are actually saying here.
Because I see people calling out, not for swift and justified retribution against those responsible for these atrocities and their supporters, but for sweeping military action against a multitude of peoples and cultures that are being described as "cockroaches" and "viruses" on account of their religion. Their religion!!!
For pity's sake, can you not see what you are saying and where this leads?
If you are truly sincere in this, in what way are you better than Al Qaeda? From where comes your moral authority to vilify their deeds when your words and ideals are so similar to theirs?
We're better than murdering scum that fly aircraft into skyscrapers and plant bombs on commuter trains. Let's all try and remember that simple fact and act accordingly.
Because if we once forget that......we truly are doomed.
16th Mar 2004, 19:16
Thank you for an interesting and well expressed post.
I do actually agree with you.
No offence intended in earlier posts
16th Mar 2004, 19:26
As for finding that Muslim leader, the most logical choice is Turkey. According to Robert Kaplan in "Eastward to Tartary", for 850 years (from 1071 to the end of WW I), the House of Islam has drawn its direction and political legitimacy from Turkey, not Arabia or Iran.
Witness the terrorist bombing in Turkey a few months ago - and this was AFTER Turkey had denied the US basing rights to attack Iraq.
There is definitely a battle for leadership in the Muslim world between the fundamentalists (who have no nation but rather wish to re-establish their empire to the boundaries and beyond of centuries past) and the more moderate/secular forces as emphasized by Turkey.
16th Mar 2004, 19:31
Now this is news to me Nani! Are you implying that finally we get to know the real reasons of the Iraq War? The capture of some old retired terrorists? Do they never run out of new motives? Wouldn't you agree that chasing the real bad guys would be a better choice? But as you say, Rummy knows best.
Ozzy, as you probably know the preparation of the Iraq War started one week after 9-11. It´s in the link I posted. Interesting read can recommand that, although probably not your preference ;)
DeepC, interesting thought, however the US has followed an agressive intervention strategy in the ME ever since the fall of Mossadeq in Iran 50 years ago. It would require a whole new approach to start a dialogue. This will be very hard due to the recent muslim phobia and trivial things like....oil. I agree, no bargain with terrorists, but at least give the good willing muslims something to work with.
BTW using the latest communication technology by the terrorists might turn out their Achilles heel, several have been captured by tracing their mobilie-satellite phones and I believe the Madrid bombers are also traced by the mobile phones, which were used as detonator. Sometimes I think they don´t really care they will be apprehendid. Unfortunately too many are ready to fill in.
16th Mar 2004, 19:47
Excellent post, Caslance.
This thread is about Madrid. Wider aspects and old rehashed arguments can be found on umpteen other threads.
We've seen various ideas about the Spanish election result. Not many make sense - they're trying to appease Al Qaida - for heavens' sakes - THINK! Don't spout such nonsense.
The Spanish people were lied to. Just as the USA and the UK have been lied to. But it went one step too far in Spain. Having been told that "we're all targets for these monsters", they realised that their government had MADE them a target. the PM programme on BBCR4 tonight had the Metropolitan Police Commissioner saying we ARE a target, thanks to our involvement in Iraq. Tony Blair MADE us a target. Spaniards were told several times, at any opportunity and contrary to almost all the evidence that the bombs were, without a doubt, ETA. ETA denies responsibility. AQ claims it. Spanish people realise to what degree they have been lied to, and throw out the liars. Claims that by doing so they are making other countries targets are disgraceful - as if they should be quiet and accept a little bombing for the sake of others. :* :yuk:
Finally, Al Qaida do not represent Islam, nor Arabs. Do not assume that, because of some things you have heard about how some people treat women that characteristic is shared by their whole ethnic group and all their coreligionists. Do not be tempted to think or act in a racist, intolerant manner because other people might be intolerant and racist. That simply drags us down to their level, and removes any right we might have to take any action at all. If anything, it legitimises them.
If Blotchley hasn't heard any Muslims condemning the bombings or other terrorist acts, I can't help that. They've been out there often, and from all sorts of people.
16th Mar 2004, 19:51
The US's foreign policy is without debate not an unparalleled success and we could go back ad infinitum and criticise past mistakes. The aim of everyone now should be to look for ways to stop the carnage and stop the supply of willing young lads and lasses to Suicide duty.
US Foreign policy has to change. That is one part of the deal.
You are right about communication being the achilles heal and that is why I included the intelligence gathering in my original post. I believe that in the short term we need to restrict the civil rights of the many to target the few.
Let's focus on the bigger picture and take each strand and find a way of fastening it so that the present situation cannot continue and the people of the world's major cities can go about their business without the fear of being suddenly dismembered and scattered about the vicinity.
16th Mar 2004, 21:00
While I disapproved Aznar policy (as the majority of European) when he followed Bush in Iraq, I nevertheless thought he was a clever political leader eager to react in any situation........
That was not the case.
If he had been able to tell the truth to the Spanish people..........
If he had been able to speak in a Churchhillian way to them, and had had the guts to call them for support against Al Qayda murderers.............
He could have won these elections.
It's a mystery for me.
I can't find the reasons why he locked himself in his lies, refused the reality, and persisted in his dream that accusing wrongly ETA will help PPE to win.
If you come to this other big liar across the Channel, I don't think Tony Blair would be so pathetic in the same situation.
Whatever you think about this man, you should consider Brits are lucky not to be governed by an Aznar.
I agree with a lot of ppruners that you shouldn't engage in violent anti-muslim rant in western media, unless you are an incurable racist......OR YOU ARE A SUPPORTER OF AL QAYDA !
Indeed Bin Laden followers want to achieve one and only goal: a Holy War between Muslims and Non-Muslim.
Nothing would rejoice more Oussama Bin Laden than anti-muslim pogroms in our countries: it would fuel his troops with enough kamikazes to blow out all Europe.
I read a young Morroccan was assasinated along with two others fellow citizens among the Spanish victims in Madrid trains.
He had just engaged and was to marry in a short time.
Never forget him when you think to the victims of Al Qayda!.
We are all targets for the fundamentalist killers: whoever we are, Christian, Muslim, Atheist, Buddhist.............
Don't mistake about our ennemy!
16th Mar 2004, 22:21
DeepC, the present desperate attempts to divide Iraq between the 4 groups and prevent the Shi´ites to take power and putting crooks like Chalabi into the government leaves me rather sceptical for the near future, if you don´t mind. Maybe a ´New Deal` might work?
Grandpa, Aznar´s botchy handling of the oiltanker disaster and the denial of a general strike although everybody could see it makes me wondering abt his clever leadership...
Between the old timer terrorists and UN's corrupt members,all roads seemed to lead towards Baghdad and Saddam's money.
BTW,Zarqawi isn't an old retired terrorist by any means,according to latest intelligence sources he may be the latest self appointed replacement for UBL.
As for finding that Muslim leader, the most logical choice is Turkey
Sounds good from afar but the Arab nations will never go along with that idea,Ottoman Empire is still very much alive in their history.
I don't remember the Turkish constitution about Muslim leadership but there may be an amendment against it.
17th Mar 2004, 03:58
The Central Intelligence Agency has an almost unblemished record of screwing up every "secret" armed intervention it ever undertook. From the overthrow of the Iranian government in 1953 through the Bay of Pigs, the failed attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro of Cuba and Patrice Lumumba of the Republic of Congo, the Phoenix Program in Vietnam, the "secret war" in Laos, aid to the Greek colonels who seized power in 1967, the 1973 killing of Salvador Allende in Chile and Ronald Reagan's Iran-contra war against Nicaragua, there is not a single instance in which the agency's activities did not prove acutely embarrassing to the United States.
Nah lets not try and create another monster its not been a sucessful move to date. So far we got Noriega, Shah, Saddam, Osama...........actually the lists to long. Please no more:ugh:
17th Mar 2004, 08:16
I already thought you would play the Zarqawi card, Nani. Powell mentioned him in his infamous corrupt UN speech. He mentioned that Zarqawi worked from Baghdad, being one of the many misinformations in his speech. In fact Zarqawi operated from the Ansar al-Islam group in Kurdish N-Iraq (the only area Saddam had no influence), after staying in Iran. However, since the invasion, Zarqawi (if he´s still alive) and many other Al Qaeda members, have spread all over Iraq, that is a fact.
The Spanish police have said that the explosives use for the attacks in Madrid they were make in Burgos Spain.
We are not safe in our on homes because we porvide them of everything that they need.
I dont untherstand how did they get them because in Spain we are very careful wih that ( reason ETA)
17th Mar 2004, 09:08
Agree. I am extremely pesimistic about the near future and suspect that it will get a lot worse before it gets better.
I thought it would be a good idea to try and steer this thread away from the anti-religious diatribes and try and see if we can come up with some sensible debate as to what the way forward is. Whether or not our esteemed leaders follow this way is irrelevant to the discussion.
The alternative 'Road Map' for the Middle-East which so upset Bush and Sharon is perhaps a good example of people thinking outside the box (outside the high level government discussions) and coming up with a slightly (not perfect by any means) better plan.
It can be done and if there is a change in leadership in Israel and some of the people who contributed to the alternative road map come in to government then perhaps some fresh thinking will turn the corner in the Palestine problem. Needs a few more people to put their careers on the line and come up with fresh solutions to the worldwide problem that is terrorism.
Idealistic perhaps? If we have no hope or dreams then the world becomes a thoroughly depressing place.
17th Mar 2004, 09:36
Getting rid of that raddled old rat Arafat and his henchmen might also help, he must have siphoned enough international aid money to satisfy himeself by now.
DeepCI thought it would be a good idea to try and steer this thread away from the anti-religious diatribes I have not seen anti-religious diatribes in this thread, rather an acknowledgement that a group of Islamic militants are prosecuting terrorist atrocities, killing innocent civilians, in the name of their interpretation of their religion. Therefore one cannot separate out religion from the argument as it is a prime driver for the that scum.
In an ideal world I agree, bringing sensible and law abiding, Muslim nation states together with Western nation states to condemn and to actively pursue the Islamic militants is a noble aim. Unfortunately this is not an ideal world and the above is unlikely to happen. For one, it is not politically wise for the heads of these nation states to alienate their populace by declaring, what in effect would be, Jihad against fellow Muslims. Sorry, aint gonna happen, so back to the drawing board safe in the knowledge that there will be little to no public declarations or help from Muslim nation state leaders. So now what?
17th Mar 2004, 12:53
There have been numerous postings ridiculing religion as medieval fables etc which I find slightly irritating. Leaving that aside....
Islam seems to be a religion that is perhaps more prone to re-interpreting the meaning of the Koran to suit a particular viewpoint. Imams and Ayatollahs etc influence the population to a much greater extent than the leaders of the Christian Faith.
Thinking long term. The current populations of countries/territories like Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc are not all overwhelmingly radical. By a change in foreign policy and a more inclusive attitude to globalised trade then perhaps we can influence the younger generations who are the ones who are becoming increasingly influenced by Osama and friends and the excitement and glamour of fighting for Islam as it is portrayed. The help of anti-fundamentalist Muslim leaders is crucial in influencing the opinion of the young.
In future perhaps we will get a less radical population in these countries and therefore marginalise the terrorists. If we can seperate them from the overwhelming majority of their professed religion it will make their aims a lot harder to carry out from within an increasingly anti-radical population.
Noble Aims are great aren't they!
As far as I can work out there is only one possible solution to this problem and that is what is outlined above. Islam defeating the terrorists from the inside while being assisted by Western Nations. Western nations seeking to protect themselves as best they can in the meantime. The alternative is to allow Islam to continue to be hijacked by radicals and the terror will be a constant fixture from now on.
17th Mar 2004, 14:09
It is unsettling to see you continue to see what you want to see and ignore the rest in this thread. It is just this sort of “blind-spot” that will keep this kind of atrocity happening for decades to come. As DeepC has put it there are solutions to this problem. It is my belief that your stance is one of pessimistic and weary resignation after another atrocity rather than you being one of the right wing neo-cons that likes the opportunities that an endless war will allow. There are simple things each and every one of us can do in this current climate. Please re-read my post on the change of reference to Al Qaeda. Try it. If everyone were to action that then it would be a huge leap forward. This “war” will be won in the hearts and minds not on the battlefield. This is not a single route problem. We have to tackle it from many angles. Nothing should be deemed too small, insignificant or not worthy of consideration.
Great post. You said what I was trying to say, only you did it better. Thanks
I believe as you do that we can get to the other side of this situation. The reason I think that is that the other major religions have been through what the Muslims are going through now and they are/were no smarter, moral or more peaceful than your average Muslim in the street. If we did it then it must be possible. Islam would have to go at this for the next 500 years of so to even get close to the horrors done in the name of Christ.
BHRIt is just this sort of “blind-spot” that will keep this kind of atrocity from happening for decades to come If it keeps this atrocity for happening for decades then bring on the "blind-spots".
Okay I know you did not mean what you wrote but I had to call you on it:) Anyway, I am not ignoring the rest of what is being said on this thread, I am disagreeing with it. In fact, I could make the same observation (ie you ignore) of you and how you respond to others who do not share your views. But let's not go there. Looking at the world through rose, or whatever yer tint is, colored glasses is not realistic and believing that the everyday Muslim and, importantly, the leaders of Muslim nation states, will join in declaring a Jihad (for lets face it that is what we would be requesting of them - let's not tart it up in nice diplomatic niceties - we need them to declare war) on Islamic militants, is simply wishful, idealistic, unrealistic pie in the sky.
17th Mar 2004, 14:59
I read a article a while back that stated disregarding oil, Finland produces and exports more that all the Middle eastern countries do combined, I suspect that waiting for Islam to get its act together and drag itself out of the tenth century will be a long wait.
17th Mar 2004, 14:59
No, we don't want them to start a Jihad against the Terrorists. We want them to teach that there is another way and that terrorism becomes socially unaceptable and criminal. Much like what the UK did with Drinking and Driving.
Do not blow the situation any bigger than it already is. Terrorists are criminals who need to be caught and punished by the state in which they operate. You can agree with the cause but criminalise the techniques. If a state want's to capture a land to increase the spread of Islam that's ok. Go ahead and try. Soldier to Soldier.
If a terrorist cannot persuade their country that it is a good and expedient to attack another nation then perhaps they are not in the majority.
Criminals with a warped religion are still criminals. Hunt them down.
17th Mar 2004, 15:12
Not true, Herr Draper.
Finland is a nett importer of oil. A great deal of Russian oil goes through Finland by pipeline and tanker.
I quote:Productive forestland is the most valuable natural resource of Finland. Spruce, pine, and silver birch are the principal trees. The only natural fuels in the country are wood and peat. Finland also has some rich deposits of metallic ores from which copper, zinc, iron, and nickel are extracted. Lead, vanadium, silver, and gold are also mined commercially. Granite and limestone are the most abundant nonmetallic minerals.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2003. © 1993-2002 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read! ;)
A further quote just for interest's sake:-The world’s technically recoverable reserves of crude oil—the amount of oil that experts are certain of being able to extract without regard to cost from Earth—add up to about 1,000 billion barrels, of which some 73 billion barrels are in North America. However, only a small fraction of this can be extracted at current prices. Of the known oil reserves that can be profitably extracted at current prices, more than half are in the Middle East; only a small fraction are in North America.Makes you wonder even more whether GWB wanted to get his hands on them...
17th Mar 2004, 15:17
I think what Mr Draper was saying is that not including oil.......
17th Mar 2004, 15:21
I have read what you say and I disagree. There are many example of nation states taking on criminal organisations when it would be easier, safer and more profitable not to. A prime example that springs to mind is Columbia and the war on drugs. There are many brave men and women who are fighting the drugs barons when it puts their families in mortal danger. Almost every single one of them is offered the choice money or death but still they fight aided ably by the US. I am aware there are some problems but surely this is a model that can be used to build upon.
Do not give up as that is what Al Qaeda want. They want the Western nations to give up on the Middle East and withdraw. I say we do the opposite we need a Marshall Plan for the 21st Century. The US/UK/Europe/Japen etc can buy their way to security if the money is spent smartly. With the amounts spent on defence by the G8 nations we could end create a whole new world. It will only happen if we want it and action it. Wishing and praying it will happen will not be enough.
This may sound to many as a “liberal, leftie” rant. To those of such closed minds so be it. Such people are not actually interested in solutions. They prefer to demonise. It is easier to blame than to solve. It is easier to destroy than to build.
17th Mar 2004, 15:21
I can see now how you could read it that way - not the way I did when I first read his post.
In which case, why are we bothering talking about Sweden - er (edited) I mean Finland?? :oh:
Talking about "Islam" dragging itself blah blah blah - just another example of how people confuse the Arab world with Islam... Indonesia is predominently Muslim. Now where is it that has a thriving microelectronics industry...?
PS, BHR - does the USA not give its opponents exactly the same "plomo o plata" ultimatum the drugs cartels offer people? :E
This is on the spanish news.
A documt was found by Norway a few monts ago in internet. This documen is written in arab and say something like this:
We have to make an attack in Spain the 3º month of next year because the are having electiones and if PSOE wins they will take the spanish troops from Irak, PSOE will use this to get into the goverment. In this document they say also the same name that who is claming the attacks.
So you can see how Alcaeda knew that PSOE will go into the goverment if they do an attack in Spain.
Do you know anything else about this?
17th Mar 2004, 20:08
Peb have spent some time searching but can not find anything in the Norwegian nett archives about this. Any more info? A link to a Spanish site is fine.
It was in the spanish TV ( Antena 3) at 3:00 pm Im going to look into some newpapers to see if I can fien more of it.
Anyway you can check this spanish web site of a newspaper where Abi Hafs el Masri says that the are not going to attack spansh civilians at the moment until they know what are the intentiones of the new goverment. Al Quaeda also says that they have given the oportunity to the spaniards to choose peace or war and they have choosen peace braking the aliance with USA.
17th Mar 2004, 20:28
T'was on Channel 4 (http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/03/week_3/15_israel.html)
I think this thread is a mirror of the world. Both sides firmly with their heels planted in the ground and Al Qaeda loves it, the more violence the better :(
Now all efforts have to be concentrated on intelligence and the coordination of the information all over the world. I remember in 2000 a disastrous attack on the Xmas market in Strassbourg was foiled by a combined German/France operation, starting in Frankfurt.
With the present powers that be all we can do is waiting for the storm to pass over until someday, somehow, other governments do come to their senses and aim for peace instead of aggression.
PS The link Norway is probably Mullah Krekar, leader of Ansar al-Islam, he had refugee status in Norway since 1991
My mistake it was Telecinco. Here you have the link
Thank you Capt.KAOS
17th Mar 2004, 21:13
Interesting if there was a disasterous breakdown in communicaton between two western states. What we also need in this world is a break from the mini-empire mentality which is a hangover from the last couple of centuries. We certainly are all in this mess together. While we are changing the world perhaps we had better change the UN Security Council. No Vetos. Let's be a bit more democratic about it.
Let's rename NATO to something more relevant and invite new members. A true alliance of the democratic nations of the world sharing resources and intelligence to defend itself from a hostile world.
Competitiveness at International levels in something as serious as this is totally counter productive. Humble pie needs to be consumed in large quantities by countries on all sides of the equation.
The problem runs very deep and I fear that the Koran makes it very difficult for Muslim's to accept a western style democracy as the US is trying to foist upon it. If the general population of a lot of the prime suspect Middle Eastern countries were to have a democratic election they would most probably vote in a dictator in the mould of an Iranian Ayatollah. Western style democracy is not really what they need. They perhaps need to have a new model of proportional representation at each and every level of government to cater for the different ethnic and religious groups.
All credit to those who travel into London and other western cities using underground systems and trains. Living in rural Bedfordshire has it's distinct advantages!
17th Mar 2004, 21:52
I would imagine the average Muslin in the street in these middle eastern countries would love a bit more freedom of action,and a bit more western affluence, its the bearded dinosaurs that run that religion that will do their dambdest to hold up any progress, learning and freedom for the masses does not suit their purpose, far better a ignorant uneducated flock, much like the Catholic Church tried to maintain 500 years ago,its nothing to do with spreading love tollerance and brotherhood,its about control, like all dammed religions.
17th Mar 2004, 22:38
Speaking of NATO, the Greeks have asked them to come in and help with security at the upcoming Olympic games.
Now those games are a big worry, you can imagine they would be a serious target for terrorists.
18th Mar 2004, 08:31
nothing to do with spreading love tollerance and brotherhood,its about control, like all dammed religions.
Looks something like an Anti-Religious diatribe to me. Unnecessary generalisation and intolerance.
The trouble with NATO is the cold war connotations surrounding it. Whilst trust between NATO and former Eastern Bloc countries has improved immeasurably over the last decade there is still an unwillingness to share vital information. A terror attack at the olympics is just as likely to come from a Chechen group associated with Al-Qaeda as it is from the usual suspects. In that situation the olympics need to be protected by an organisation which is more encompassing than NATO.
18th Mar 2004, 08:50
Another great post. It is so refreshing to see someone on here with ideas for the future rather than entrechments from the past.
When you say that the average man/woman in the street in a Muslim nation would vote for an Ayatollah figure I agree with you. However, I do not actually think that is what they “want” more likely it is what they think they should do. I do not think there is any difference in the desire for freedoms and democracy between the average man in the street in Glasgow and Baghdad. It is my opinion that the world over most people want to be left alone to get on with their lives without too much interference from the state. Just like Tony D has stated earlier.
18th Mar 2004, 09:17
You are right about Aznar : everybody sould have concluded from his attitude during the Prestige affair he was the guy to ignore and deny problems instead of trying to resolve them. (we don't allways realise how stupid are some political "leaders").
Aznar was not alone when he lied to Spain and the entire world about Al Qayda responsability in Madrid massacre:
Yesterday, Spanish government had to apologise in Security Council at UNO because Foreign Affair Ministry Ana Palacio had managed to deceive SC , pushing for a resolution incriminating ETA.
Spanish public press agency EFE is going to lose its Information Manager Miguel Platon, whose departure is requested by the agency collaborators, after he censored all informations about police results in the enquiry because these details were leading to Al Qayda.
Only Juan Carlos, King of Spain is clear of any reproach: when he made his speach for Spanish citizens he demanded before that the Government admits fundamentalist trail was not excuded, and for himself, he did not mention ETA.
As an advocate of Democracy and Republic it's surprising I have to pay tribute to a King who is a resolute champion of his people liberty! ( ...and this is not the first time in his reign.)
18th Mar 2004, 12:43
It's interesting that we assume people want to be 'free' to the same extent as we are in the west. Never underestimate the power of religion to change people's perception of the world and what they aspire to. I can see clearly an Islamic family where the parents desperately want their children to grow up in an islamic society free of the influences of the west. Multiply that several million times and you get an idea that perhaps not everyone thinks like we do.
18th Mar 2004, 13:36
Thankfully, anybody who spends there entire life devoted to preparing for death and performing silly man made rituals and whining daily to some bearded imaginary friend on high is halfway loopy already IMHO.
18th Mar 2004, 14:01
Thankfully, anybody who spends there entire life devoted to preparing for death and performing silly man made rituals and whining daily to some bearded imaginary friend on high is halfway loopy already IMHO.
Your humble opinion?
Nothing particularly humble in classifying at least 25% of the world's population as 'half-loopy'.
18th Mar 2004, 14:01
I think we are agreeing from different angles here. Freedom is relative. No one is completely free to do what they like when they like. When you talk of freedom from Western influences I agree that there are many who feel that way. That does not mean they are looking for a dictatorial state leadership.
I do not smoke, I have the rare drink but nothing I could not live without. I am happily married with no need or desire for any woman but my wife. For whom I have the greatest respect and I like to think I treat her as an equal. I give to charity, I help out in my community. I do not do drugs, I am respectful to the police and my parents. I pay my bills on time and do not work on the Sabbath. I think the media is too pervasive. The music is too loud and mostly rubbish, and I enjoy reading.
Surely you are not saying that the sort of lifestyle I have is something that would not but suitable or acceptable to most non-fundamentalist Muslims. Remembering that here in Scotland there are still places I would be stoned to death (well barred from the village shop, which amounts to almost the same thing) for not going to church on Sunday or for not having fish on a Friday.
Before anyone gets het up about my use of “stoned to death” I am aware that fundamentalists still find this acceptable. But we are not talking here about them as they are beyond reason.
p.s. I think you will find that more than 25% of the world are either Jewish, Christian or Muslim
18th Mar 2004, 14:05
Indeed, and 100%of the worlds population believed it was flat at one time, the difference being there seemed to be some obvious evidence for it being so.
There is none whatsoever for the nonesence the religious believe.
18th Mar 2004, 14:17
There was never any evidence whatsoever for the Earth being flat.
Nobody would deny there is, as far as I can see, no evidence for the existence of God. There is, on the other hand, no evidence whatsoever that he does not exist. Based upon that lack of evidence, I would be unwilling to call "loopy" people who don't believe in him.
It's their choice. I respect it. I simply ask that those who feel that way don't call me "loopy" for having belief in God, respect my choice and don't indulge themselves in otherwise offensive playground terms.
18th Mar 2004, 14:24
I agree with what you say. The trouble is that a lot of folk in Muslim countries identify one with the other. They believe that the form of Government influences the likelihood of their society descending into the vices of western society.
Regarding your way of life. I don't really mind what you do. What I object to is people who take it upon themselves to ridicule other people's way of life constantly.
I know more than 25% of the world practice a mono-theistic religion but I kept it low to not get into a slanging match about whether people are devout or not etc....
Discussing Religion is not something I want to get into. The thread is firstly about the Madrid bombings and secondly, what possible route the world's government's can take in getting us out of this unholy mess.
If you want to carry on having cheap shots at Religion then feel free but I'll try and resist replying to your posts unless they contain something which contributes to the thread.
Nobody would deny there is, as far as I can see, no evidence for the existence of God. There is, on the other hand, no evidence whatsoever that he does not exist. Based upon that lack of evidence, I would be unwilling to call "loopy" people who don't believe in him.
Nobody would deny there is, as far as I can see, no evidence for the existence of WMD in Iraq. There is, on the other hand, no evidence whatsoever that they do not exist. Based upon that lack of evidence, I would be unwilling to call "wrong" people who don't believe in them. ;)
18th Mar 2004, 16:54
How long have you been married???
There are no equals in marriage man!!
Know your place and you'll be happily married for decades!!!
18th Mar 2004, 17:01
Back to the thread...still waiting for the key leaders of the British Muslim community to condemn this outrage seeing as the link certainly now seems to have a Muslim terrorist link (with the continued arrests in MAD)...
As before they remain silent...still waiting...well certainly to me that says an awful lot :mad:
Spanish police have arrested 5 people more today and one of them has admited that he participated in the attacks.
There is already 10 in jail. I hope that they dont see the light again ever ( if they are guilty)
Not only the condemnation, but given the proposal earlier in the thread that we encourage the Muslim nation states to teach their people that the Islamic militant terrorists are bad people and to banish all thought of joining them, how do we encourage this and which nation state would be the first to do this?
Encouragement? Offer money? Don't the Western countries already provide assistance where required?
Okay which Muslim nation would have the guts to condemn fellow Muslims and actively promote resistence to the Islamic militant terrorist's preachings of destroying the infidels? Which Muslim nation would be happy to be seen joining forces with a Western country to actively teach their populace to shun Islamic militants and instead preach "Live and let live" in dealing with infidels? Answer? None.
As I said before it's a happy utopia that will never be reached, so let's live in the real world.
18th Mar 2004, 18:27
Okay which Muslim nation would have the guts to condemn fellow Muslims and actively promote resistence to the Islamic militant terrorist's preachings of destroying the infidels? Which Muslim nation would be happy to be seen joining forces with a Western country to actively teach their populace to shun Islamic militants and instead preach "Live and let live" in dealing with infidels? Answer? None.
Fellow member of NATO. Desperately trying to become more open in the face of Islamic radicals.
A group of small middle eastern states?
I know it is unlikely but not impossible as long as the rest of the world stick together a bit more. Can you think of the impact on these countries if NATO, Russia, China and India all acted together in condemning these countries and sharing intelligence.
I fear for Pakistan. It must be on a knife edge which way it'll pan out in that country. Hopefully the effect on the Pakistani Armed forces of having worked with coalition troops will be positive and they will lose some of the radicalism.
What idea's do you have on how you would take the situation forward. 'Just living with it' is easy to say until you are caught up in it. If that is not what you meant then please correct me. As you have discounted my attempt at setting the world to rights then perhaps you can hold forth on your ideas. Keep it coming.
18th Mar 2004, 20:10
Definitely concur on Turkey. They have a long history of nationalism that triumphs Islam (as evidenced by their ties with Israel of all countries.) If they can take the reigns of moderate Islam, there might yet be hope.
18th Mar 2004, 20:30
March 15, 2004, in a school of Val Fourré, Mantes la Jolie, which name is far from reality as this is a poor city west from Paris, having nothing to compare with Champs Elysées.................
The teacher (History and Geography) explains to the 12 years old the meaning of the 3 minutes of silence, to pay respect to the Madrid victims.
He asks them to write what they think about this massacre, during the time they stay silent, in order to send it to Spanish Embassy in Paris:
"Why so much violence? Courage!"..
"I speak to those who committed this crime. What is the use of killing innocents for nothing?"
"It's horrible! We are all born equal, but it seems it's not true for terrorists. Why this hatred?"
"They killed innocent Spaniards, there is no doubt. We must react and unite."
"There were innocent people in this train."
"Why are there allways people who have done nothing who dye, and their parents allways crying for their children?"
It was signed: Hassiba, Marouan, Houlemata, Chidi, Pinar, Nordine, Jebril, Sullivan, Samy, Karim, Dorina , Thomas......
I have much respect for this teacher and these children.
Thanks to them our world has a chance to be better, if the terrorists and racist don't destroy it.
18th Mar 2004, 22:43
Just to introduce some balance to this debate. Today in the Irish Times, the Irish Muslim Foundation, who represent all Irish Muslims, wrote a letter to the Irish Times.
They totally and unequivocally condemned the terror attacks in Madrid, deploring those who murdered and offering their sincere condolences to those families who lost loved ones.
They went on to say that anyobody who kills in the name of Islam is an enemy of Islam and there was nothing in the teachings of Islam and the Koran to justify murder.
There was no caveat in this letter, no reference to anything else. It was heartening to read and I truly feel sorry for the ordinary and decent Muslims out there who are watching their religion being dragged through the mud.
We do need some Muslim leader to step forward onto the world stage and repeat what this letter says.
People who have posted here have been right, we cannot afford to marginalise the Muslims throughout the world, surely we must work with mainstream Islam and marginalise the terrorists?
18th Mar 2004, 23:27
As one critical of the lack of any condemnation from the UK Muslim community, I an extremely heartened to read this.
All we need now is for someone in the UK to do similar and for the Muslim community to support this stance.
Then maybe the likes of Abu Hamza can be sorted out and returned to where he crawled from and hopefully prosecuted there for his activities.
Is this too much to hope for?
19th Mar 2004, 07:31
The writers of that letter need to be applauded from the rooftops. Not just in an Irish newspaper.
A step in the right direction.
Regarding Muslim nations condemning and persecuting the Radical Muslims. Pakistan seems to be doing a fairly good job of putting their armed forces in the line of fire to round up ex-taliban and current Al-Qaeda fighters.
Another ray of hope.
19th Mar 2004, 08:48
Many posters on here have mentioned Turkey as a starting point for a balance between the West and Islam. I would also put forward Egypt. I was lucky enough to spend sometime there last year and found the people there warm, friendly, tolerant and damn good at their jobs. We here in the UK could take lessons from the Egyptian civil service. Mrs BHR and I applied for visas. We sent off the paperwork on a Monday and by the Wednesday had our passports back fully stamped up with all the appropriate paperwork completed and attached. We are in Glasgow and the paperwork had had to go to London. Compare that with anytime you have had to contact any UK government department for anything. The Egyptian people we were lucky enough to meet were far more capable than most of us here in the UK. Most of them could speak at least 3 languages OTHER than their native tongue. As the quality of some posts in here attests to, there is a significant section of the UK populace that have yet to fully master English and have never even attempted another.
19th Mar 2004, 12:58
Good call on Egypt. Some of the same basic traits that Turkey has: long history of nationalism that takes precedence over Islam, a distinct culture, and one that does recognize and work with Israel.
As for the UK population not mastering the English language, don't worry about. We have one President that mangles it, the former President that twisted it, and a recently elected Governor that is funnier than either. ;)
Yesterday the spanish goverment have showed several documens of the spanish Iteligence. They have tried to desmonstrate why they were saying it was ETA. And to be honest it looks like they say what they knew about Madrid attacks all the time.
201 people have died so far.
Charlie Foxtrot India
19th Mar 2004, 14:22
Ozzy, try Indonesia as well, whose leaders condemned the Bali bombers from Jamar Islamir and worked closely with the Aussies in the aftermath to bring them to justice. Indonesia is the largest Muslim state in the world.
However having prosecuted and locked up these JI grinning scum they are apparently about to be freed on a technicality....so much for justice.
As for Madrid, from this distance it seems to me that the Spanish people exercised their democratic rights and we all know how accurate pre election polls are :rolleyes: Isn't democracy what we are all supposed to be fighting for? They've lived with ETA for years, I doubt a terrorist attack would change their minds overnight that easily. Maybe they already wanted their soldiers to come home from a futile middle eastern mess and were sick of being lied to by ther leaders. I know many in Australia feel the same way.
19th Mar 2004, 17:22
peb, I would be grateful if you could elaborate on your statements.
Maybe a link, or a fuller story.
Sorry El Grifo here you have for you are asking more or less. I not able to find the declaration from the Minister Acebes but it was in all the channels:
I have seen that PSOE is not saying the same.
Also check this
4 more people has been arrested in Madrid and they are still looking for other 4 people
Today the MI5 (Uk), CNI (Spain), Italy and Germany are having a meeting to change information and makeing a plan for coordination. All this to fight terror. But what I dont untherstand is why they didnt do it before. They need it 202 victims to see that was necesary.
24th Mar 2004, 09:30
This is for those of you who say that the Spanish government, i.e. Aznar and Partido Popular did not tell the truth about Al Qaeda, ETA and the attacks in Madrid. You must know also about the manipulation carried out by Radio Ser and Media group Prisa at Spain.
This is a long text and I have not the time to translate it but I will do a bit now and the rest this afternoon. It´s the story of two journalists from Radio Ser. This are the facts:
1. Thursday 11, when the official number of dead people was lower than 45, the Manager of the News program, D A, told to two journalists to tell that the terrorists who had put the bombs on the trains was still unsure. When one of them replied that everything was pointing to ETA, because the president of the Basque Country had, at 9:30, told publically to the media that it had been ETA, D A answered: "If it has been ETA, Rajoy wins for sure. If it has been Al Qaeda, we(PSOE) can win the elections. So, from now, nobody knows who put the bombs, it´s unsure".
2. Every "exclusive" that Ser emited was coming "from important people" and with precise instructions every moment about how and how many times to repeat, or how C Ll told " repeat this things until crush Rajoy". Journalist form Ser has no relatinonship with that "exclusives". The brilliant investigation equipment was just one man, A G F, who was continously in touch with two people: the old Secretary General of Security R V, and the leader of PSOE, A P R. As it was commented by the Ser journalists, R V was giving information, A P R was changing it to crush Rajoy and A G F passed that to D A. "Periodistadigital" points to the Superior Chief of Police of Madrid M A F R, like the man who allowed PSOE to know minute by minute about the evolution of investigations.
3. The suicide terrorist story told by Ser. It never had any basis. Many journalists from Ser knew from where it was coming and its purpose: Blame completely to Al Qaeda and spread the doubts about the information provided by the Government. A Ser journalist complained to D A by spreading information that nobody knew from where was it coming (except AGF) and that could be false. DA answer was:" We have to push, because time is almost finished (talking about the Sunday elections), so the deontologists and those who have no eggs can go home". When the journalist suggested to confirm the new, he was told to :mad:
It will continue later. Sorry I know it´s a bit poor translation.
24th Mar 2004, 19:56
That was the point (it seems now that all evidences confirm Al Qayda trail).
I would like you develop what you know about point 2, when you give the coordinates of the man who allowed the PSOE to be informed, minute by minute about the evolution of investigations (superior chief of Madrid police).
What I can't understand is why Aznar, who got the same informations, stuck to ETA erroneous trail and manipulated the media, Spanish Ambassadors, and UNO....showing them the wrong direction.
French media related that officials in charge of investigations informed regularly the press reporters, news agencies and the media as a whole, about the progression in the enquiry.
So, thanks to these officials, the truth was released and Al Qayda incriminated.
The result is that some criminals guilty of that mass murder are under arrest, and all Europe is warned.
I wonder what would have happened, would we had swallowed the ETA false guilt spread by Aznar?
What is your personnal opinion about Aznar failure to indicate the true direction?
25th Mar 2004, 09:22
4. When Radio Ser started talking about the suiccide terrorist "new", the Anatomic Forensic Institute called them to ask first and later to demand them stop telling lies. The radio guaranteed to the person calling that the information was truth and he replied that was a complete lie and asked for the name of any single forensic that could support the information. The answer from the manager was to ask why to try to defend so hardly the government and finish the conversation.
5. The discomfort of the investigation department of Ser increased even more the Saturday when it was decided to "inform" that the CNI( National Centre of Intelligence) had been working from the beginning about Al Qaeda. One of the journalists of Ser had confirmed by two different ways that the CNI had only been thinking about ETA from the beginning and only started suspecting about Al Qaeda when the cassette with the Coran phrases was found. Even during the Friday morning the Ser sources from the CNI were pointing to ETA. Despite all of this, D A (Daniel Anido) commands to go on with Al Qaeda because there was only one day left and " we have to f**ck Rajoy all the time". This was told in front of a Sound Technic that mumbles " long life to the independent journalism", Daniel Anido replies to this: "The end justifies the way".
6. When Ser starts to tell about the "new" that CNI knew about Al Qaeda from the beginning, Jorge Dezcallar, Manager of the CNI, contacts A G F (Antonio Garcia Ferreras) to ask for an answer. That talk seemed to be hard. Dezcallar calls for rectification and Ferreras advises "do not try to say anithing against us because we can crush you online". Dezcallar contacts the press company Agencia EFE to refute the wrong information, but Ser continues lying.
7. Saturday morning Daniel Anido comments about that afternoon: " That ******* Aznar is going to stop up his ears", and adss " a big one is going to happen in Genova" (PP headquarters). By mid afternoon, when the demostration was starting at Genova, Anido tells to speak allways about "spontaneous demostrations" and to strengthen the covering of it as the time goes on to justify not broadcating Carrusel Deportivo (sports) and broadcast an special space that had been prepared from the morning when the most aggressive collaborators of Ser were told to be at Gran Via street at half past nine. All the "artillery", Ferreras and Anido said. "We have to put half Spain in the streets to put a rope to Aznar¨statue and destroy it ( in reference to the one of Sadam Hussein at Bagdad). While Anido was watching Genova street by TV with the special polices there, he said: If we are lucky and police try to fight to stop the demonstration, we win the war!
Grandpa, I will answer you later. Not much time now.
26th Mar 2004, 08:56
About point 2: Here are the names for the coordinates. I didn´t post it before because I didn´t know if would be good to do it, but now it has been published in all newspapers, so here it goes:
CLl : Carlos Llamas.
AGF: Antonio Garcia Ferreras.
APR: Alfredo Perez Rubalcaba.
DA: Daniel Anido.
MAFR: Miguel Angel Fernandez Rancaño.
The information was provided by MAFR to RV who was all the time in talks with APR. This was the one who changed the information as he liked to provide it to DA to be told by radio. I don´t exactly know what that information was, if it was blaming ETA or Al Qaeda, but some days ago, the Partido Popular gave evidences from the CNI that showed that they were telling everything they knew all the time. I am sorry I was trying to find the documents but I couldn´t.
About Aznar manipulating the media, well I think he just tried to do two things at the time (hard job): Tell the truth and try to win the elections. Perhaps call the media, UNO, etc. was not a good decision, perhaps would be better for him just to be watching TV or reading or playing paddle at that time while PSOE was manipulating the media.
The result of the elections is there and I RESPECT IT, but it´s a shame that a terrorist group can change it. This is something that everybody knows, because as DA said: "If it was ETA, Rajoy wins for sure".
26th Mar 2004, 21:13
Hmmm sounds like the Archbishop of Canterberry has been reading this thread, its about time somebody senior in the church piped up with a few home truths,but of course it will upset the luvvies in the media.
26th Mar 2004, 21:16
I thought you treated all religions with equal contempt, Mr D???
26th Mar 2004, 21:28
I do Mr C, but not everybody else thinks like me, and the man was speaking to everybody.
27th Mar 2004, 07:07
Aaaaah! So he was, and you remain as constant and unwavering as ever, Mr D. :ok:
27th Mar 2004, 07:08
I'm sorry Rod, but when you say Aznar was trying to tell the truth and win the election, everybody should read he was lying, trying to win because of his lies.
In a previous message, I wrote my opinion:
Had Aznar told the truth about Al Qayda involvment in Madrid massacre....
Had Aznar reacted with a strong message, a reaction of Spain mobilisation against fundamentalist terrorism (alike Churchill in 1940, but he wasn't that kind of of man)....
Had Aznar stopped to incriminate ETA wrongly to "win the elections"....
He could have won...
About PSOE leaders, Spanish police officials and Spanish media, whatever their reasons, we must admit they were pointing in the good direction to Al Qayda.
Incriminating ETA on false grounds would have led to more division in Spain, the truth would have been known sooner or later (fortunately!), and if it was to be revealed that Aznar had won elections due to his manipulations, you can imagine the turmoil in Spain after that.
27th Mar 2004, 09:54
After the terrorsit attack, in Spain could have happened two things:
1. If it had been Al Qaeda (it was): Spanish people would never forgive Aznar to support Bush and Blair in the Irak war and to put Spanish soldiers in Irak. Everybody would vote PSOE.
2. It it had been ETA: Spanish people would vote PP because nobody would want to vote a man who supported a pact between his representant in Cataluña and a republican communist party that talks to ETA to reach an agreement in order to stop attacks only in Cataluña.
That is the point, it´s really simple. No matter if Aznar had told the truth (I think he did) or not. After the attack, everybody knew who would win.
About a reaction against the fundamentalist terrorism, well, Aznar called to a big demostration on Madrid, not only against fundamentalist terrorism or ETA terrorism, it was agaist ALL terrorists.
PSOE and the media (manipulated by the socialists) were pointing to AlQaeda, that´s truth, but also the government. They told about the van with the cassete about Coran, about the differences in the bombs detonators and about everything they knew and now they proved that they told the truth with the documents from the CNI. I know they were also pointing to ETA, but that is what the Intelligence Services do, investigate all the possibilities and in Spain, the one about ETA, makes a lot of sense, specially because they tried before with trains in Christmas and with a van full with 500kgs of explosives some days before.
27th Mar 2004, 10:57
"A galvanizing terrorist event in Europe may well be what awakens the old continent to the realities of the bin Laden century. Sadly, this [Madrid bombings] may not be it."
Eric Bovim, Rueters
Words to ponder.
28th Mar 2004, 20:16
You should better use arguments Stbd..........as there is nothing alike in this vaguely directed sentence.
Everybody made suppositions about Madrid massacre.
Thanks to Spanish police, we all know now that fundamentalists are behind and not ETA.
Thanks to that we can expect that "Bin Laden century" will be much shorter.
You should not be misled about determination and courage of Spaniards : they were able to resist Franco dictature for years and rebuild a Democracy without any outside help(this work was not a priority for any state including USA at the moment and for 40 years).
Now, the best way to fight Al Qayda was not to invade Iraq, and an overwhelming majority of Spaniards agreed about it.
29th Mar 2004, 03:34
OK Grampa. You have it all sorted. Good on ya.