Do you really Want to Do This...??

[deathcruzer]

Sorry to disillusion the enthusiastic amongst you ....But being a pilot aint what it used to be....
I've been in this business for many years now and have watched employment conditions and pay getting worse every year. I fly long haul at present and have been told that if I want to keep my job I must relocate...the lousy re-location package on offer is going to mean that I will have to pay out of my own pocket to relocate...quite substantially.....
Some airlines call for you to pay for your own type ratings,one even charges you just to look at your CV!!!!!!.On top of all this you will have to pass sim rides every 6 months, a medical every 6 to 12 months depending on your age...and at 60 the CAA will take your licence back. Companies go in and out of buisness at an alarming rate...so unemployment is very likely at least once in your career...all this movement means that pensions can be hard to arrange. I'm afraid that companies don't value us at all. We seem to be a necessary expese that, if they could do without,... they would. I could go on,.....be carefull. Flying can be great fun....working for airlines aint. You might be asking...if he aint happy why doesn't he leave.....Well I'm working towards doing just that. I can't afford to work for an airline anymore. If you have a good job/career ...I suggest you try to excel in it and keep your flying private. That way you will continue to enjoy aviation.
So take the rose coloured spectacles off and take a good in- depth look at the Industry before you commit a penny. Or you are likely to become another lamb to the slaughter.

[Thief13x]

wow

Ya know, ive been considering going into the airline industry for a few years now, i even started taking flight lessons before Sep 11th. I always wondered what the inside scoop was on the airlines, whether or not they were blowing smoke just to keep applicants out, or if they were actually serious. This scares me quite a bit, because learning to fly is no small investment, especially to start making the big bucks. However, ive been sending out for information packs to various flight schools here in the USA, and from what i understand, the Airline industry, as well as the demand for pilots is supposed to pick up within the next couple years. I love flying, i have fourty some hours and ive loved every minute. So my question to you is; would it be beneficial to persue an aviation career outside of the airline industry? air mail? corporate flying? With your education and ratings, it seems like there would be tons of opportunity to make lots besides the airline industry...

Also, are the airlines in the USA still suffering? or has the buisness started to pick back up?

T13x

[Snigs]

This is so transparent it's unbelievable!:uhoh:

Sorry, I could go into the world of spelling, but....:sad:

[Jonny]

It's always good to get an insight into the realities of the industry, so thank you deathcruzer. How altruistic to sign up especially help us wannabes make an informed decision:ok:.

In a way i find the usual list of pilot grievances quite comforting, though, as they are all issues that are far outweighed by the negative aspects of my current job or any 9-5 ground-based office job I see myself having in the future. I suppose things like this are very subjective in their nature and many will be put off by regular assessment and medicals yet enjoy the routine of joining the rush hour traffic and shared moments ove the water-cooler. So, i suppose to answer the question of "do you really want to this?" you need to know about what "this" entails and go in with both eyes open.

There's no question that being a pilot isn't what it used to be but personally it's cons are far outweighed by those of any other path i could follow.

[Harves]

I have been in the business of wanting to be in the business for many years now. To be precise, 17 years ago, I was trying for the RAF...no go through eye sight, and 15 years ago I was told I would never fly in any capacity through medical reasons.

This resulted in a 6 year catering career followed up by 8 years of IT sales. Everyone of those 14 years unhappy because I could not fly. I spent every hour looking up with envy.

Now I know that life as a pilot has changed and I think that it is right and propper that potential pilots go in to their chosen careers with there eyes open, thus deathcruzer's post is positive.

However, I would like to open his or her eyes to something that may have been forgotten over many years.

Flying on the whole is a passion for people, I believe all the more so now, in light of the costs and future expectations. I am sure you once had a passion deathcruzer, that has obviousely wilted.

I just say to you, remember how lucky you are, and if you have never experienced standing on a train platform in the pooring rain at 4am to get into a job you hate in London with another 14 hours ahead of you before the same miserable platform, then think twice before jumping ship. You may on the other hand have the money to invest in a nice little hotel or bar...but remember, I have been there aswell.

I believe that I may well have been the same had everything gone my way, but it didn't. I now have my F ATPL at 33 going on 34 and will do all in power to get a job doing what I love. I also continue to encourage people to persue ther dream in what ever way may suit. And yes deathcruzer, that may be flying for fun, but please remember where you were once upon a time.

Realistic evaluation is good, but dragging elements of the industry down surely can't.

In fairness, before I sent this post, I re read yours and although annoyed initially, I think I can see where you are coming from.

I certainly agree with the oppinion that pilots or students are being sucked dry in many ways and in an unfair manner, but this I, maybe naively, believe will change for the next regular cycle.

Harves

[FlyingForFun]

This is hardly news.

It is also not exclusive to pilots.

Whatever job you do, you will most likely feel undervalued, become bored with the daily routine, not be paid enough, and be made redundant several times during your career. It's probably true that the aviation industry is worse than many, but it's certainly not unique.

You adivce that "If you have a good job/career ...I suggest you try to excel in it and keep your flying private" is definitely worth considering. I've considered it, and I've decided it's not for me. I don't want to spend 40 or more hours a week doing something I hate. I am well paid - sufficiently well paid to realise that money is not everything, and that as long as I have enough to pay the bills I would rather not spend my life doing something I don't enjoy.

"So take the rose coloured spectacles off and take a good in- depth look at the Industry before you commit a penny." Very good advice to anyone. Some will take a good in-depth look and decide they don't like what they see. Others will decide that, for all its flaws, this is the industry they want to work in.

FFF
---------------

[Andy_R]

Hear hear!!

You can earn all the money you can dream of but if you are unhappy you will never be happy. I have had jobs that have paid badly and have paid well ; the satisfaction and happiness I derived from those jobs has not been proportionate to their reward.

On the other hand you owe it to yourself to look long and hard at what you are proposing to do and beyond the glossy exterior at the terms and conditions, the hours and the lifestyle. If you still want to do it then you owe it to yourself to at least try.

[G SXTY]

It’s an interesting discussion, and I think FFF has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Deteriorating pay, conditions, satisfaction and job security are by no means limited to aviation. My parents, both now retired, never once suffered unemployment; I know few people of my generation who haven’t had at least one spell out of work. A good friend with 15 years’ I.T. experience (a licence to print money not so long ago) has been made redundant twice in the last 2 years. If life is harder and less rewarding for pilots than in days gone by, I believe it’s simply a reflection of the way society in general is going.

So why do I really want to do this? I’m fortunate in having a reasonably safe job that’s reasonably well paid and rewarding, and has reasonably good prospects. If I told a financial adviser what I’m planning to do, he’d probably give me a good slap and tell me to pull myself together and be grateful for what I’ve got. The trouble is, it bores me silly – always has done, always will. Include commuting and my job eats up 12 hours per day. In other words, 50% of my entire Monday to Friday life is spent doing something I don’t want to do. Great. And I really don’t fancy another 30 years plus of knowing exactly where to stand on the platform so I’m next to the doors when the train stops, just so I can get on in front of all the other sullen commuters.

I realised what I wanted to do the first time someone said “you have control.” And I realised why I wanted to do it during my first jumpseat ride; zero dark hundred one horrible winter’s morning, while the rest of humanity was stumbling around in freezing fog, or standing in the right place on station platforms, we left them all behind and burst out of the overcast into a glorious, crystal clear dawn sky. It was a pivotal moment for me – the airway to Damascus if you like. :) I knew this was what I had to do.

Now in case that sounds dangerously like falling in love - and we all know how blind love can be – I am well aware of the downsides. Many of the pilots I jumpseated with described how the career can be a killer on marriages, how you can miss seeing your kids grow up, living out of a suitcase in anonymous hotels, the job insecurity, incompetent management, etc etc. Not one of them said they’d rather be doing something else.

It was summed up neatly by a very senior pilot of a well known UK charter airline, with whom I was lucky enough to be sharing a glass of wine a couple of months back. Explaining my predicament, that I want to walk away from a safe, sensible career and risk it all to become a commercial pilot, and that - by most reasonable analyses - I must be slightly bonkers, he said; “There is no sensible answer. We all do it because we love flying, it’s as simple as that.”

If you want job security, join the civil service. If you want money, be an accountant or a lawyer. If you want to fly . . .

[jam123]

Great post G SXTY !!!!!:ok:

One of the most inspiring post i've ever read.

jam

[JetSetJim]

Jam123 & G SXTY - you've summed it up for me! If ever I had the remotest doubt in my mind, I can totally, 100% relate to your post. It's easy to lose sight of your dream, caught up in the commuting lifestyle, so it's great to know none of us are alone in all this!

[B2N2]

What the :mad: is this troll doing here?
Just a big wind-up.....just one post
Hear hear G-SXTY....

[Snigs]

Exactly B2N2, can't believe you all took it seriously, but that said, some nice posts here, covering the reasons why we all do it!

:ok:

[mazzy1026]

I wrote a thread in this section called "Airline Pilot or Flying Instructor" because I read a similar post to this one. I got some interesting replies which may be worth a look by everyone in here.

Regards

Lee:)

[G SXTY]

I’m going to stick my neck out here and say I take deathcruzer’s post at face value; I suspect he / she isn’t out to wind us up (apologies if you really are a troll). ;) I wouldn’t necessarily ignore an opinion just because I don’t like the message.

And even if it is a wind-up, so what? This is still a valid discussion, and it is vital that wannabes have as much information as possible on their chosen career before they commit themselves. I don’t hear anyone arguing over that point.

One of the problems with being a wannabe is the paucity of information from ‘the horses mouth.’ There is a whole training industry out there that will try and convince you commercial flying is the best job in the world, but they’re not entirely unbiased now, are they? I want to get as many opinions as possible from current and former commercial pilots, as well as wannabes who are further up the training ladder than me – people who are doing what I want to do and have already got the T shirt.

That’s one of the principal reasons Danny set up Pprune in the first place – to give wannabes the chance to seek information and advice from professionals. Before 9/11 we at least had the chance of an occasional jumpseat ride with which to glean information (and very enlightening it was too – I now know which hotel at EHAM holds the KLM record for bedroom gymnastics, but I digress). :)

Now the flight deck door has been closed on us, we are more dependent than ever on resources such as Pprune. I would like nothing better than to see this thread filled with pages and pages of advice from commercial pilots, all of which will be helpful to me in shaping my plans. At the same time, I recognise that it’s a bit unrealistic to expect every single airline driver in the whole world to say; “Come on in, the water is lovely”. That doesn’t make their opinion any less valid, and I would humbly suggest that shouting ‘troll’ at the messenger isn’t going to encourage them to put finger to keyboard.

[A340_rulez]

I agree that there have been some inspiring replies to this post but i think all in all for the majority of us wannabees

The answer to Deathcruzer's question

"Do you want to do this...? !

is yes!!!

we do want to do this!

A340 :)

[Easy Glider]

Sorry to say that as a 757/767 skipper, Deathcruzer has just about hit the nail right on the head!! No need to elaborate here I feel.

[B2N2]

C'mon Easy Glider, don't hold back tell us your story.
You've gone further than the most of us, give us some inside view.
I know for sure I've toughened up and grew a lot more cynical in the last 4 (hard) years.
Understand now why some people wouldn't even talk to me when I was a starry eyed bushytailed PPL.
You're in this trade to either make it or you don't :ouch:
I personally know quite a few people who fell by the way side and didn't make it quite as far as they initially thought they would for whatever reasons.
Sometimes it's lack of character and stamina that's for sure.
So if you can't take the heat stay out of the kitchen sort of thing.

HOWEVER........
Very few people (and none of them in the aviation training world)
have ever told me how difficult it could be.
They are obviously very happy keeping up appearances and making hot air balloons.
Sure...people get lucky..I know one guy who was called at home(!) by a flagcarrier's head hunter and asked to come work for them. He just got his CPL ME with 280 hrs. They paid for the rest of his training. This was in the early 80's during the airline boom.
I have never assumed the same would ever happen to me..and guess what, turns out I was right all along it never did happen to me.
I do know that everything I have achieved comes trough MY hard work and taking chances and risking everything.
I've had a couple of good people (you know who you are) give me opportunities at times when everything seemed bleak and endless. What comes around goes around :ok:
Anyways, enough preaching for this time....
Whoever started this thread we surely hijacked it right didn't we ?

[scroggs]

In any field of endeavour you will find those who've become disillusioned because their expectations have been frustrated. For many airline pilots, the job has taken a big turn for the worse since 9/11 simply because the security situation has removed much of the relaxed attitude that was prevalent beforehand. For some, it's gone too far and they're taking their skills elsewhere. For the majority, it's just another part of the evolution of the profession.

50 years ago an airline pilot was akin to a god for many people. They were rare, well-paid, very mysterious characters who had much of the appeal of film stars of the time. The job was totally different to what it is now - in some ways harder, in others easier - but totally different. With the expansion of air travel and the improvements in aircraft, there are now many thousands of pilots flying incredibly complex (but simple to operate) aircraft through a flight environment (both legal and practical) that would have terrified those early pilots, who would have happily hand-flown a big four-prop through a tropical storm onto an unlit runway in Africa! And now they can all expect to reach and enjoy a long retirement, which was most certainly not the case in the early days!

It was much more glamourous and unreachable in those days, and some of those guys who've flown throughout much of the intervening period now resent the 'normalisation' of the profession into one that almost any intelligent, able and resourceful person can attain. They may also resent the degree to which other factors and people influence the operation of a modern airliner - where in the old days the captain made every decision relevant to the flight, now tens or even hundreds of others are involved in the process.

I've been flying since the mid 1970's, and operating four-engined long range aircraft since 1980 (though for much of that time in the military), and I've seen for myself how much it's changed. For me the essence of piloting a large aircraft, however, is still as it was way back then. The challenge of simply poling the thing is as satisfying as it ever was. I feel happiest working as part of a team, and the whole operation is much more of a team effort than perhaps it used to be. I don't feel myself to be better than others, or in some way special, so I don't worry that the profession has lost some of its prima donna elements - which, of course, appealed to many of the older generation of pilots (but if it appeals to you, you may be looking at the wrong profession!).

Flying aeroplanes commercially is not worse than it used to be, but it is different. Some embrace the changes, others do not. Don't be worried by the variety of opinions and personal stories you hear or read; that's just the rich diversity of life.

Scroggs

[no sponsor]

Good post Scroggs. And thanks for those experienced to take the time and post what you feel about the career.

But there are so many threads here at the moment that reading PPrune does knock the confidence and make you wonder why you've spent all morning going through the mass and balance chapters for the ATPLs.

Still, onwards and upwards. :}

[PPRuNe Towers]

I'll keep this simple:

You spend your entire working life behind a locked and barred door. In the case of the most commonly used low cost aircraft in a space just the same as a downstairs loo.

Most of you are of an age where you will face 30, perhaps 40 years of this.

What?? They didn't mention that in the FTO brochure???

FACT: There are much nicer, more healthy ways of earning a living and still flying nice aeroplanes.

Regards from the Towers
Rob

[redsnail]

We all know why we started it. You really do have to love flying or else you just wouldn't bother. Yeah, the view is nice and I enjoy the flying but as the aircraft get bigger the less flying I do. (ie autopilot etc). The most fun I had flying was tootling around in bugsmashers in the Australian bush. (Aka GAFA). WHy didn't I stay? A$20,000 isn't enough to survive and plan a life. YOu just have to get onto the bigger toys just to ensure you'll have enough cash to retire on.
Flying passengers these days is just how PPT described it. Locked doors, no contact with the people and not much contact with the FA's. Every thing is done at a rapid pace and there's little time when on the ground to stretch your legs, let alone have a look at where you are. You'd better get used to sitting in squishy cramped flight decks. When you go to work you are treated as a potential threat every time you sign on. ie scanned, bags x-rayed, security checks that go back even further these days.
Now, that assumes you're flying something reasonable.
What if the best you can do at the moment is fly a "tired" old freighter? You've paid for that priviledge and your income is pretty poor. Heating? What's that? It's 2am, -20 OAT and not much better inside. Hungry? Tough. Nothing's open and Ops just rang to tell you about the 2 extra sectors you're now going to do.
Sleep? Forget it. Need to go to the toilet? Good luck. Every thing's shut.
Want to move on? Well, a few employers look at your instructing/turboprop experience with suspicion. Oh, you've flown turboprops, can't fly jets then. Gee, that's a lot of instructing you've done, couldn't get a charter job? Now you have to start watching the age v experience curve too.
Ahh, brilliant, got the good job at last. Oh no, recession and your seniority number just isn't high enough. Off you go, good luck.
No worries, you think, I'll do something else to tide me over. As many in Ansett found out, just what skills can an airline pilot bring to another industry. You got it, none. Better have some savings (haha) or another skill.
How's the health? Better keep it good for 40+ years. Don't get cancer and don't have a heart attack. Have a bad day in the sim and fail a check. Better not fail the next one or else you're out. No pressure hey?
Most of the time you'll find that the crew you work with are great. It's management that will wear you down. Just about every one I speak to will agree with me on that one.
So, some of you don't like what the experienced folk are saying. Listen carefully and weigh it all up. These days, I just want my pay to turn up on time, allowances paid in a reasonable time and a stable roster.

I feel I am one of the lucky ones. I have had a varied and interesting career so far. I have flown in some of the most amazing places and seen stuff that next to no one will see. I would hate to have gone straight from flight school into a jet. I would have missed out on too much fun and learning. Am I rich? No. Spent the lot converting my Australian ATPL to a JAR one. Would I do it again? Possibly, but certainly I would do things in a different way.
Note, the flying schools will not tell you this.
Good luck, caveat emptor.

[B2N2]

Good to see the big guns have joined in now...welcome moderators:ok:

[no sponsor]

Ok Redsnail. Nice post. What would you do differently then?

[maxy101]

I´d like to reiterate a few of the posts above. The job HAS changed, and for the worse. When you are starting out, life IS rosy. WOW! People are paying ME to fly!! After a few years. the enthusiasm starts to wane, for whatever reason. A lot of us still get a kick out of doing a walkround and as for "poling it", well, fantastic!.
However, the long time away from home , constantly degrading terms and conditions , security and general hassle don´t cut it anymore. Look at a lot of pilots in BA or other big airlines, and a lot of us work the minimum or close to it. Basically, we´re trapped. The job is what you make of it, but 9/11 was the final straw. It is very difficult to get out of the F/D nowadays, and as for meeting new people (i.e pax or cabin crew).... forget it. There just isn´t the time. The job isn´t what it was 15 yrs ago when I joined, and I was hearing the same thing then from the old-timers....

[redsnail]

no sponsor,
A lot of what I would do differently pertains to Oz because that's where I started from.
Firstly, I wouldn't have worked as a lab tech in biology. I would have got an apprenticeship or similar to get engineering (maintenance) experience/quals. This would have made me a lot more employable much earlier on. Not many out of work maintenance engineers. I would have gone to a different school, that error alone cost ~$15,000.
I wouldn't have stayed bush flying/VFR flying for as long as I did. I think that cost me dearly. After I got out of bush flying things went reasonably well.
Regarding this JAR thing? I got caught by a rule change and that cost me a few quid. In hind sight I probably should have stayed at home and done it distance learning. I and no one predicted the WTC Sept 11 disaster.

20/20 hindsight is a beautiful thing. If I was 38 and starting off, I would seriously reconsider that idea.

[Snigs]

How did you know I've just turned 38 reds? :(

Let's face it, no one enjoys any job all of the time. I just believe that the percentage will be highest if I was flying for a living!

[deathcruzer]

No guys I ain’t a troll, and this isn’t a wind up….I fly wide bodies around the world, I haven’t been replying to posts because that is what I have been doing, If that upsets you then think how my wife feels…
This is/was one of the best jobs in the world.....My point is that providing you don't mind a high level of insecurity in your life...watching incompetent management destroying what is left of this industry, and accepting the status of Taxi Driver, this should work for you. I was one of the most enthusiastic guys at the start of all this.... But frankly my 8 year old son could do a better job than most of the overpaid so-called managers this industry has.
Our enthusiasm is quite frankly used against us....and our lifestyle has suffered as a result.
Bear in mind that in later years there are more individuals to consider than yourself. Wives have a habit of finding many aspects of this job difficult to deal with ....to the cost, very often, of the marriage. Perhaps it is a general problem most face in society today...... Perhaps I should start my own airline.......( Fat chance)… the money to get that up and running is astronomical....and the paperwork........
No, I’m not trying to put you all off.....Just be aware of what you are letting yourselves in for...:suspect:

[Stoney X]

deathcruzer, I suspect that your description of management could be applied to most industries today. It certainly is the case where I work now. But that is not why I'm training to leave this industry and join the aviation one. There's nothing here now that I'm trying to run away from, incompetent managers included. It's my enthusiasm towards all things related to aviation that is drawing me towards your industry. So thanks for the warning but it's no different to what was expected. This is the age where budget management is more important than people management.

Regards
Stoney X

[K2SkyRider]

Artificial Horizon,

I’m sorry to hear that, but I’m convinced you need to disregard all the negatives associated with this profession if you really want to succeed and be happy. Of course, with a wife to please, it’s not always feasible.:*

You almost need to put the rest of your life on hold until you reach the ideal situation i.e. for you perhaps an airline job with fewer sectors/higher pay or leaving the airlines completely for another flying job….scenic flights for tourists in New Zealand?:cool:

So, sacrifices have to be made all every stage…from the wannabe who would sell his/her mother to get into the RHS to the overworked Capt who wants quality of life.

Anyway, make sure you look after No.1, after all, if you stress too much you could fail the next medical.:ugh:

Could you go back to your previous profession if you chose to? Maybe fly at weekends for fun…

K2

[Master Yoda]

So what are the POSITIVES of being a Pilot then?

(Apart from having your pick of the finest Stewardess):8

[xriter]

You don't get caught up in traffic jams in the morning....(forget the hosties....most are married...):E

[FlyingForFun]

Master Yoda,

I would guess that, to most of the people on these forums, the positives of being a pilot are bl00dy obvious. And those people to whom they are not bl00dy obvious would probably be best looking for another career, rather than putting up with all the negatives when you can't see the positives.

I'm sure you fit into the category who can see the positivies without any help! ;)

FFF
---------------

[Master Yoda]

Sure I know the positives, but list what benefits you get from being an Airline Pilot, what do you get with the job: (benefits/perks, what airlines offer their Pilots I'm talking), rather than focusing on the 'stuck in a tin can' thing or just loving being behind the controls.

(i.e. paid car hire? company credit card? etc etc)

[xriter]

Cant talk about other airlines...but my lot give us b:mad: r all.......crew travel..all standby.
You do get 100 pounds / year service off company flights.Doesn't save much though.Cant even get family on the f/d jumpseats now.....(not the fault of the airline that one)

[scroggs]

Master Yoda this is the wrong thread to be discussing the finer points of employers' terms and conditions - that's what the Terms and Endearments forum is for. This discussion is about what drives people to join or leave the flying profession. Perks and benefits are not likely to have any influence on someone's decision to take up flying; they are really only relevant to which employer you may wish to work for. And that point is discussed interminably over on T&E.

I have to say that if women, hire cars and credit cards are your principal motivation for aiming at airlines, wouldn't you be better off doing an MBA and joining the city rat race? You'll end up with more money and perks - and maybe a better lifestyle.

Scroggs

[cumulusse]

master yoda

better to be an eagle for one day than a chicken all your life.....

[Master Yoda]

Its all relevant methinks, what else do we get for our £60,000 spent on training!

[scroggs]

Well, you don't get Pprune and you don't get me. If I say you're diverging from the topic, it's because you are - and you are diluting the usefulness of this thread. If you want to know about individual airlines' contracts, go to T&E. :hmm:

Scroggs

[RowleyUK]

Lets not forget the accident risks involved!:ooh:


Thats it, im throwing in the towel!

[Slim20]

Airline flying is stressful, noisy, boring and subject to incredible pressures from beancounters, schedules, ATC, and the dreaded management.

If it wasn't in my blood i would have given it up. But it is in my blood, I've known all my life this is what I wanted to do. The dream of it is very different to the reality - in many ways worse, but in most ways simply different.

But there's something about the adrenaline rush as you pound down the runway in 150tons of metal, the flush of pleasure as you grease it down after a textbook approach, the feeling of omniscience as you look down on an entire country at night, the crystal clear starry nights, shooting stars, rainbows and bursting from murky overcast into glorious sunshine at 6.00am that stirs you inside like nothing else. And this on a daily basis!

I can live with early dark morning starts, long delays, CBs, windshear, tech problems, premenstrual hosties, psychotic passengers and erratic Spanish ATC because at the end of the day I AM AN AIRLINE PILOT and I've grafted all my life to get there. I may jump ship, but I'm not dumping this career! As long as nobody takes it away from me, I'm not going to give it up myself.

Do I really want to do this job? Hell yes!! And if anyone had told me how bleak the situation was when i started training, I still would have done it. As a wise man said, if the odds are a million to one, there's still a chance. And I'm damn glad I took it. And if you're reading this and wondering whether to go for it - well, go figure!

[maxy101]

Slim20 Nice post....I respect anybody that can still be enthusiastic about the job after a full career....of course, it also depends on which company you work for, where you are based, dosh at the end of the month. Some people entering the industry now are not going to have the same T & C that some of us currently enjoy. At the end of the day, that is what pays for the life away from work.

[What to do?]

Afternoon all

I work for a large city law firm. I work 09:30 - 21:30. I'm earning £50,000. I'm 25, and if my job gets anymore boring there's a distinct possibility that I'm going to fall into a coma.

Whilst I accept that your job certainly isn't 'Catch me if you can', I think you have perhaps lost touch with reality. The job security might not be as good as it used to be, but you guys get paid pretty well, and thets be honest the hours are pretty good. What do you think happens to us if we don't bill the correct number of hours or there's a partner budget cut?

You might be away from home, but I sometimes work all weekend and might work all night. Eventually I might earn £150,000 - £200,000, but hour for hour captains are earning more. You guys can choose where to work within reason. I'm chained to the city of London (£££).

I'll admit that the training costs are most certainly a ball ache, and combined with job security it is a worry. However the from where I'm sitting at 19:30 with s**t loads of work to complete, the grass not only looks greener, it looks like the Garden of Eden on a very sunny day. Then there's the view, word versus a constantly changing high altitude environment.

I'm not saying you don't have things to whine about, but I do think you need to realise that perhaps things really can be worse. Why did I do it? I made a mistake. I wonder how many pilots get to 25 and think the same? My hunch is not many.

Kind regards

A bored lawyer @ 19:50

[silentwitness]

A bored lawyer who can't tell the time, your post says 8:02 :ok:

[RowleyUK]

Yet another day goes by, once again i have not flown!

Do i still want to do this? Yes

Will the weather allow me to finish my course? God only knows!



Rowley @ 21:05Z .:p




ps. hey look at that....the clock actually is fast......110 posts and never noticed!

[carbonfibre]

I agree with Slim 20

If like me youd give your right arm to fly for a living , you would already know the answer, Hell Yeah ! you want to fly.

I have to say that these pressures are in day to day workings within all industries apart from the weather considerations, commercial pressures are in every position.

Besides a choice of getting my A**e kicked by my MD or the accountant or flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day, good or bad weather , ill take that.

For me too, its not the money, its the flying, because i know i wont get the money i earn now flying.

well good luck to all and enjoy the flying:ok:

[maxy101]

I would imagine that lots of pilots wouldn't mind swapping their present seat for a desk and the potential of earning 150-200K a year . A school mate of mine made partner in a "Golden Circle" firm a couple of years ago earning >250k a year whilst I am still waiting for a seat change. Alas, working for Big there is very little chance I will get to earn half that. Now, I know we don't do this job for the money, however, the long days in the office are respected and rewarded by your management/partners, and I doubt you have a fraction of the "******ation" factor that we go through daily passing through the building sites we call airports in the UK. 12 hour days are common in the airlines nowadays. The good old days of a couple of sectors in the morning and being home by lunch are long gone. I have no doubt that you are treated as an asset rather than a highly paid liability. Trust me, If I had my time again, I would swap places tomorrow, and enjoy my flying from the luxury of a First class seat.

[Snigs]

Oh come on, I don't think the comparison is valid :rolleyes:

With no disrespect to professional pilots all over the world but any Tom, Dick or Harry can pass the professional pilot exams (you're even given the answers to memorise!!! :suspect: ) and hence become a professional pilot..... it takes a lot more nous to work yourself up to being a partner in a city firm.

I guess that only a top few percent of pilots could do that.

Besides, even FO for a "Big" will pay way more than the national average, why be greedy! :sad:

[maxy101]

Snigs It wasn´t meant as a comparison, merely an observation. Besides, virtually all of my peers have a decent degree and I´m sure the "nous" to climb the corporate ladder if they wanted.The point I am trying to make is that the sort of person that is in the top few percent of the population/IQ/educational system ( however you want to measure or define it) would be better off taking their valuable skills to virtually any business except the airline business. Unless you want to be a non -executive director in Big, that is. It also amazes me that the most highly qualified people in the airline are flying the aeroplanes instead of running the company. I think a lot of people would be shocked at the lack of qualifications and experience of some of our very senior mangers at Big. It would appear that a bit of brown-nosing goes a long way...

[Maximum]

These threads always get my blood pressure up and I know I shoudn't let them, but the sweeping generalisations with which some of you disregard the views of us actually doing the ****ing job beggars belief!!

Snigs, you say, With no disrespect to professional pilots all over the world but any Tom, Dick or Harry can pass the professional pilot exams (you're even given the answers to memorise!!! ) and hence become a professional pilot....
what an absolutely gross insult and totally crass misunderstanding of the truth. And it's no use prefacing your jaundiced statement with "with no disrespect" because it's utterly disrespectful!! You are conveniently forgetting that airline pilots come from all backgrounds in flying. You are conveniently forgetting that all you're talking about is the groundschool, and even then you're not presenting a fair picture. You're conveniently forgetting about type ratings. Instrument ratings. Experience. Command ability, etc, etc etc......I'm sorry to make it personal, but you've made me angry, and you're talking through your a**e. So any Tom, Dick or Harry can become a professional pilot, and by inference in your post, secure an airline job and climb up the career ladder to command? With the myriad of pitfalls along the way..... Well of course they can (sarcasm).

Thanks for the gross insult to a profession I am very proud to be a part of. Thanks for dismissing my achievements in decades of professional flying, the blood, sweat and tears that I've put into this seemingly thankless and now by your reckoning pretty worthless occupation. Yea, thanks a whole bunch buddy. 'Cos now you've put me right, ANY TOM, DICK OR HARRY COULD HAVE DONE IT!!!!! :yuk:

carbonfibre, you say, Besides a choice of getting my A**e kicked by my MD or the accountant or flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day, good or bad weather , ill take that. your ignorance/arrogance is breathtaking! Do you really think that's all there is to it?? Or are you too conveniently making a totally unbalanced comparison?? "Just flying an ILS into an airport a few times a day" - what a completely moronic view of airline flying. And I love the way you talk about bad weather as if it's not real and can't actually hurt you. It can be frightening and KILL YOU! And not frightening in an exciting adrenelin rush kind of a way, just plain pant wetting, dry mouth, sphincter puckering, palm sweating, knuckle whitening scary. Scary so that you just want to be on the ground scary. Oh, but hold on, what am I talking about? I forgot - it's just about flying an ILS into an airport a couple of times a day.............

What to do?, you say,The job security might not be as good as it used to be, but you guys get paid pretty well, and thets be honest the hours are pretty good andEventually I might earn £150,000 - £200,000, but hour for hour captains are earning more Again, your ignorance of the realities of the job is astounding! Pilots are being worked literally to death in the UK at the moment. Of course there are exceptions, but if you look at the short haul area especially, it is basically fly, eat, fall asleep and start all over again. And having done both myself, I can assure you that twelve hours in the cockpit is a hell of a lot more tiring than twelve hours in the office. You're conveniently ignoring the cramped conditions, the locked door, the sparse and sh**e food. Dehydration. Vibration. Noise. Smells. ATC. Hot/cold, light/dark. FATIGUE. And sharing all this with someone probably of a totally different generation, with a different view on life, whom you might not even like. As for your pay comparison, it's just rubbish. Plain and simple.:yuk:

If I seem irritable:) it's because there are so many misconceptions regarding this job amongst the general public at large that I can't believe it when you guys who should be more knowledgeable make exactly the same assumptions.:mad:

By the way, if you're ever up for an airline interview, I think you should do a bit more research on what the job's actually like, or you're going to provoke a very similar reaction to mine from the interviewer. And then you'll still be flying that desk......:rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Towers]

Thanks Maximum,

Sincerely thanks. Yet again wannabees blow out the pros visiting this forum with their breathtaking arrogance and naivete. We do receive word privately from those with a working licence that with the attitudes displayed here wannabees deserve every rip off going. It appears experienced alpha types loathe inexperienced alpha types because it reminds them what a pain in the arse they used to be. It makes life very difficult for us especially when wannabees, as a group, come over as being self centred and immature.

Outraged???? Answer this - how many relieved, licenced and working wannabees have paid anything back to this site by writing, simply writing more than a paragraph about interviews, testing, line training and flying the line. Who has ever come back and told you what it is really like 3 years or more down the line? I'll give you a clue the percentage begins with a zero, then a decimal point and then several more zeros before we get a number.

Therefore the brutal point has to be made that even last year's crop of wannabees can't stick you. How do I know this? Because the vast majority can't be arsed writing about it, any of it for you. Take the hint - wind your bloody necks in about the job till you've done it. Shut your mouths about how good the pay is until you are 24 months into life with CAP 371. Button your lips, epecially elswhere on the site, about how little you'd work for.

There is a world of a difference between enthusiastic and embarrassing

The test to the truth of that? Would you dare come out with any of this bollocks to experienced pilots who might put in a word for you? Not the interviewers - just someone who might hand in a CV for you. It is the same guys who we need to help you here and you clear them out on a weekly basis with your attititudes.


Finally, one point the working guys haven't touched on yet is every single working day of your life you will be treated at least once like suspect bombers and be searched by brian dead jobsworths who know, who absolutely know that we don't need to carry a thing to destroy our airliner and all on board.

Rob Lloyd

PS Puzzled or dismayed at the tenor of the posts here from the working pofessional pilots? Ask yourself this: where are the posts from those with 3 years or more of experience telling you it is wonderful and they way they'd hoped it would be? There are those of you who will sweep hangars, drive a van - in fact do anything to fly. There are others who can't think of anything better to do, it sounds good and have never done any sort of licence or work towards a licence. This thread is for them.

This weekend we celebrate the move to a new server and many changes - some to these forums. To reinforce the strength of our belief that many of you would be far better off working in the city or other professions we're making aviation experience, perseverence and application the cornerstone of all future sponsorship from the PPRuNe fund.

PPS - Sorry Reddo - my mistake. Do the jobsworths know you go feral at at times???

[b]PPRuNe speaks fluent aviation - bluntly and doesn't take any money from wannabees.[b/]

[redsnail]

Maximum,
Well said. Not every one who's passed the exams will get a crack at the shiny jets.... In fact, just because you've passed the exams doesn't mean you'll pass the flying component.

Rob,
Regarding the security threat, I did mention it.
When you go to work you are treated as a potential threat every time you sign on. ie scanned, bags x-rayed, security checks that go back even further these days

Look guys, it is a good job. However, it isn't the job that you guys think it is. It used to be, but it certainly isn't now.
Why do so many of you tell us we're wrong?
In Australia, approx 1% of all the people who start a PPL with the view of going commercial will ever fly a jet. 1%!!! Slightly different market in the UK but you'll get some idea of the stats.

[scroggs]

Actually, Reddo, my guess is that the success rate in UK is probably even less than your quoted 1% - but it's diffcult to know how serious people are when they say they want to fly for a living before they've started the process of training, so it's difficult to put a realistic number on the dropouts. Whatever the numbers, it's a very high proportion!

Peeps, there aren't very many Wannabe contributors who've gone from pre-fATPL to an airliner flight deck in the last couple of years; as you know, it's been a difficult time. Reddo and Pilot Pete are two of those few, and they're kind enough to share their experiences with you. There are some others of us far longer on the tooth who feel that it's worth sharing our perceptions of the industry, and how it's changed, with you in the hope that you will learn from what we say. Some of what we say is opinion, and is therefore arguable. Most of what we say is fact, and should be believed - although we may not put it as clearly as you'd like on occasion.

As Maximum and Pprune Towers have told you, this is a bloody hard job much of the time. In many so-called respectable airlines, the working conditions are pretty Victorian - and commercial pressures are continually adding to the pilots' burden while often effectively reducing the rewards. The opportunities for losing your entire career are frequent and intimidating, and the pressures on your domestic life are as destructive as any career I can think of. This job is not a licence to print money or to have an easy life, for the vast majority of airline pilots.

I'm one of the lucky few who enjoy what I do enormously, and I work for an airline with a fairly enlightened view (under BALPA pressure....!) of what working conditions should be - yet I'm sat in China now, unable to sleep (it's 4 am here), writing stuff on Pprune. I've been here 3 days and had maybe 8 hours real rest in that time because the time change, added to the overnight flight here, is pretty devastating. I have to operate home - a 12 hour flight - in 7 hours' time..... And then I've got to drive round the M25! I'll sleep all of Monday and most of Tuesday. I'll have Wednesday to sort the washing, claen the house, see my kids, pay my bills, see friends, arrange a car service, do the garden, fix a leak in the bathroom, go to the gym, do some essential shopping, and a few other jobs (takes breath...), before I drive the M25 to Heathrow to do the whole thing over again. For 5 days away with 8 hours bloody sleep again! And I enjoy this? I must be certifiable....

On top of that, I don't yet know what I'm doing in April, let alone later in the year. I cannot commit to any family or other social occasions - ever. I can't plan do get involved in any sporting events, or help out the local amdram society, or charity, or school. My friends (I still have some) have given up trying to invite me to things, 'cos I never turn up. I even nearly missed my own mother's funeral! In this job, you are opting out of normal society. At 48, I'm not senior enough to get leave during school holidays - and I may never be so while my kids are at school. I'm lucky in that at least I get a social life down route. Ask an EZ or Ryan pilot when he/she gets to socialise, and the answer will be pretty much 'never'.

This job is not easy, and there are very real disadvantages. Take all that into account and ditch the rose-tinted specs before you are too committed to change your minds. If you're not absolutely certain that this is what you want to do, having learned all that we are telling you, then go elsewhere and have a nice life.

Scroggs

[Andy_R]

Scroggs Maximum Pprune Towers

Thank you for your words of wisdom.

I agree there are a lot of wannabees with rose-tinted views on life, but there are many others (who usually do as you advise and shut up about stuff they don't know about) who just absorb and digest the information on these pages and are able to make far more informed choices with the help of your opinions.

So don't give up on us all - many of us do listen and learn, and value the pearls of wisdom available from these pages.

Thanks for the time you guys and girls put into all this.

[Screwballs]

Can I just say that I agree with Cloud69 and thanks to PPRUNE and the professional pilots here who put up with their careers and wannabes like me who have no-end of silly questions.

Screwballs - eyes wide open :sad:

[G SXTY]

This is the most useful thread I have seen in a long, long time.

I would like to think there are at least a few commercial pilots with more than a couple of years experience who'd encourage people to join the industry, but on the evidence here, they are extremely thin on the ground.

Food for thought.

[hifive11]

Cloud 69 and Screwballs

I second what both of you have said and it is/has been a very informative thread.

:ok:

[wint3rmute]

It's sad that for some of you this hasn't been the career you hoped it would be and of course it's a good that the realities should be passed down to "wannabes" who may be similarly naive.

However, i'd like to reassure that many alternative careers have equal if not worse drawbacks. I think a lawyer's already spoken but as a doctor i can tell you that if you feel hard-done-by as a pilot then that's nothing compared to being at the hands of the NHS!

We regularly have to work shifts of 5pm to 10am, for example, for 7 days only to be owed a rest at the end which is denied as we have to start a new job in a new environment on a simliar week of nights. (is this turning into a Monty Python sketch!?) I hope that puts your 6 days of 12hr sectors into perspective slightly. Also, i don't know what i'm doing tomorrow, let alone next week so i can never categorically accept an invitation or make any firm plans.

I can see the worry with biennual simulator checks and the medical but most of us have to apply for new jobs every 6 months. So, you're 2 months into a job and already its time to fill in countless application forms and hopefully swat up for interviews. Also the whole career is a series of pretty tough (e.g. limit to 30% of applicants passing) exams that must be taken if you want to progress at all.

Pay: I'm on the highest london pay band and am payed about 2/3 the amount that pilots i know at a similar stage in their career get.

You think working in a cockpit is bad... you should try an A&E department on the edge of a london council estate. Alcoholics with bottle wounds tend to not be very grateful or respectful.

I haven't even mentioned management (best not get me started) or the general public but... My point is that we all have difficulties in our jobs that we have to deal with and if what you enjoy about the work outweighs this then great... go for it. Just don't be despondant if everything isn't exactly as you imagined it, nothing ever is.

And if you don't like it.. find something else to do, whether it's plumber/teacher/gardener/whatever and free the job for someone who really wants to do it. I'm sure most jobs are easier to break into than the one you feel trapped in at the moment.

I'm not knocking the professionals who have shared their experiences, by default the thread required you to whinge! As i said there maybe those who are going into this career without realising these details and its possible someone reading this thread will be rightfully swayed away from professional aviation. I know a lot of doctors would have been helped if they were aware of the realities sooner. I just thought it should be said that you may be viewing alternative careers with rose-tinted specs.

As someone not directly connected with aviation i realise that some of my views may be not that well informed. However, i think can offer an objective stance.

[Maximum]

.........oh dear, it's truly amazing isn't it.:rolleyes:

Just when you think the penny has dropped.

wint3rmute, you've started the whole cycle off again.

Look, this isn't about comparing who's got the worst job and the most awful working conditions. Frankly, I couldn't give a dam.

But you've made the points, and I just can't let them go unanswered. So here we go again.
It's sad that for some of you this hasn't been the career you hoped it would be patronising I'm afraid. How do you know what we hoped for? All we're trying to do is point out fact from fiction. if you feel hard-done-by as a pilot then that's nothing compared to being at the hands of the NHS! well how would you know? Are you a professional pilot? The comparison is pointless.I hope that puts your 6 days of 12hr sectors into perspective slightly patronising and ill informed again I'm afraid. Like so many, you're conveniently ignoring the unique nature of our work environment. You also fail to take into account the extra hours of work we accumulate pre and post flight and the time we spend away from home. I also suspect that you can choose to move to better working conditions as your experience and skill grows. An airline pilot doesn't have the opportunity to progress up a career ladder that can potentially bring the big rewards that medicine can.Pay: I'm on the highest london pay band and am payed about 2/3 the amount that pilots i know at a similar stage in their career get another silly comparison. I'm sure you're on a darn sight more than a flying instructor. Or are you paying the NHS to let you work?You think working in a cockpit is bad... you should try an A&E department on the edge of a london council estate. Alcoholics with bottle wounds tend to not be very grateful or respectful yet another ridiculous comparison. Do you know what working in a cockpit is like then? And I might remind you of 9/11 and the present security threats, as well as all the normal ones we face every time we get airborne. Just don't be despondant if everything isn't exactly as you imagined it, nothing ever is thanks for that piercing insight into the human condition.

And then this really takes the biscuitAnd if you don't like it.. find something else to do, whether it's plumber/teacher/gardener/whatever and free the job for someone who really wants to do it you do realise we are experienced career professionals who've "served our time" as it were don't you? Don't you? And you're seriously suggesting that we don't "really want to do it". Has it occured to you that the rules have changed, the job has changed and that we're simply trying to stop the erosion of our terms and conditions even further? And what about mortgages, family commitments etc etc etc - where do those fit in to your glorious suggestion? I just thought it should be said that you may be viewing alternative careers with rose-tinted specs you make the assumption that we haven't experienced alternative careers.

Look, I'm sure you're a thoroughly nice chap and all that, and it's gratifying that you took the trouble to post at all. But, you must realise this is a very emotive subject for those of us who actually know what the job is like. Unless you've sat in that flight deck as a professional pilot you just can't understand. The image and reality are poles apart.

That's why I reserve the right to jump down anyone's throat if I think they're helping to perpetuate these myths.

[PPRuNe Towers]

wint3rmute

Good thoughtful stuff but if you're new here just some background:

I don't know why but born and bred airline pilots have proved incapable of running a successful website. Danny, me, Scroggs all had long careers before going anywhere near Airliners. Amongst other things Danny was an Israeli soldier, while I did 13 years at the pointy end of life in Toxteth. Scroggs has 20 years of military flying under his belt. We don't spout as aviation dilletantes bored or trapped with our chosen path. We fought, kicked and clawed our way onto the flightdeck at ages where we shouldn't have had a chance.

We did it approaching or actually in our forties with families and mortgages. We suceeded, we prospered and this site is our way of putting something back.

There's nothing in it for us to tell wannabees the realities of the job. We get nothing out of it. It costs us money of our own to run the site. Other than us every single person a wannabee has contact with is either trying to sell them something or justify their own expensive decisions.

You are most unusual in knowing any working airline pilots - the majority of wannabees have no contact at all with anyone in the business. We're here to be brutally honest friends - the only ones who will tell, what is to some, the unpleasant truth. It needs to be told because it is not in the financial interest of any club, training organisation or even trade union to tell the truth.

Those who live, breath and sleep aviation will find their way to the flight deck. We are just making sure that our readers know that there are much more pleasant ways of flying and earning a good living.

Tens of thousands of pounds are spent selling the dream to wannabees. We are the only, I repeat only counterbalance. You, of all people, must share our loathing of spin and marketing and the 'work' of non active, never been on the front line, drones and careerists who utterly depend on fresh, eager new faces coming through the system.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd

[Maximum]

:O Rob, you put it much better than me!

wint3rmute, apologies if I've come across like a heavy handed j**k, but this whole area does tend to get my back up just a little as you might have noticed. Nothing personal intended.

Welcome!;)

[wint3rmute]

Ah.. duly noted all.

No probs maximum, i can see this is an emotive issue for you all and can understand how someone with no experience spouting their opinion would annoy. That's why i said: " As someone not directly connected with aviation i realise that some of my views may be not that well informed". A lazy disclaimer maybe!

[Snigs]

I may well attempt a reasoned response to the posts on here, but at the moment I'm tempted to say "I quit"

Rob, We did it approaching or actually in our forties with families and mortgages. We suceeded, we prospered and this site is our way of putting something back.

Just like many of the people who post here Rob. Most do know what goes on, and are willing to take the chance.

I ask the question, why do I work 45 hours Mon-Fri designing the stuff that professional pilots take for granted, and then put in all day Sat and Sun as a flying instructor. So I don't even have time to sort the washing, clean the house, see my kid, pay my bills, see friends, arrange a car service, do the garden, fix a leak in the bathroom, go to the gym, do some essential shopping, and a few other jobs (takes breath...)

Maximum, you see what you see....

it's no use prefacing your jaundiced statement with "with no disrespect" because it's utterly disrespectful!!

Not at all.

You are conveniently forgetting that airline pilots come from all backgrounds in flying. You are conveniently forgetting that all you're talking about is the groundschool,

That's all that's needed (oh and a glorified PPL skills test) to be a licensed commercial pilot......

and even then you're not presenting a fair picture. You're conveniently forgetting about type ratings. Instrument ratings. Experience. Command ability, etc, etc etc......I'm sorry to make it personal, but you've made me angry, and you're talking through your a**e.

I'm not forgetting those. But your arrogance has made me angry, you sound so superior. If you're the person that I might spend a few hours sitting next on the flight deck then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to.

So any Tom, Dick or Harry can become a professional pilot, and by inference in your post, secure an airline job and climb up the career ladder to command?

Yes they can, and you know some too, I'll bet.

With the myriad of pitfalls along the way..... Well of course they can (sarcasm). Why sarcasm.

Give me some respect, you may be surprised.... I might deserve some!

[Maximum]

Snigs, I think anyone reading your last post with even half a brain will be dumbfounded considering all that's been said...............

you astound me. That's all that's needed (oh and a glorified PPL skills test) to be a licensed commercial pilot...... If you're the person that I might spend a few hours sitting next on the flight deck then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to Give me some respect, you may be surprised.... I might deserve some!

what makes you think you've earned any respect when you continue to make light of my profession?

Very interesting....................

[Snigs]

Ok, I’ve just re-read everything that’s been written, and I’m about to wind my neck in, but not before I try to explain. :(

Firstly, maxy101, I couldn’t agree more, the Dilbert concept (i.e. promote the incompetent) is rife in many other industries too.

Maximum, I’m not going to get into a slanging match with you, last night’s post was a little influenced by a nice Rioja, and perhaps wasn’t well thought out nor well put.

I think I need to address my “Tom Dick and Harry” comment. I hope I can illiterate this without digging myself further into my hole….. What I was meaning by this is that once the professional exams and the CPL skills test are passed then you can call yourself a professional pilot. It’s a bit like an electrician calling himself an electrical engineer but not having any engineering qualifications, i.e. a little misleading. What I failed to make clear was that I am fully aware that a shiny new license is only a license to learn, I agree that there is so much more to being in command of a pax carrying commercial flight. But I’m sure that you’ll agree that there are a few “professional” pilots out there who are “unemployable” (and after this contribution I’m probably perceived as one of them, if I wasn’t before! :uhoh: ) and this is where I was coming from with T D & H.

I am really sorry that you have seen my posting as an insult to your profession and to you personally. It was never meant to be. It seems that I’ve upset a few people with some ill judged comments, once again I’m sorry.

If you're the person that I might spend a few hours sitting next on the flight deck then, I'm sorry, but I don't want to

I retract this, it was written a fit of wine fuelled pique.

What I was originally trying to put across is that there is always a different perception of professions from those on the outside to those in the know. People think that my current job is glamorous, working all around Europe etc, but only I know the truth.

I know that this is exactly what you’re trying to do for the Wannabes, tell them the truth, which is great, but I suggest that a lot of Wannabes know the pitfalls, and still possess the desire to fly for a living and still “chase the dream” with eyes wide open. My point being that the grass is no greener in any other profession. it’s just that I perceive that what you do for a living is slightly less ****ty than what I’m doing at the moment.

I have a license to learn, and I have done and continue to do so, I have been a PPRuNer as long as you so I have read threads similar to this before, and I have found them invaluable because they have shaped my perception of what it is like in the real world. I also know, as well as anyone can who’s on the outside, how things have changed, I have PPRuNe to thank for that too.

I know I'm green, but a shade less dazzling than some. I shall bow out now, having learnt a valuable lesson, booze and PPRuNe don’t mix.

[redsnail]

Ahhhhhhh Snigs,
You've learnt a valuable lesson. Never post pissed. We've all done it and as the hangover fog clears, dive for the edit button.
Sounds like you need a weekend to yourself and your family. (If only you could find the time ay?)

[PPRuNe Towers]

Real Life 101

There are still people reading this thread that are discounting the contributions from working pilots.

Emotionally they've discounted it purely because of the of preponderance of opinions and fact knocking at the foundations of their plans and dreams. Just like smokers and the facts......

Therefore they have decided that in terms of their intellect the offerings are partial, biased and untrustworthy. As with the thread on airines that 'demand' an integrated course lets put those thoughts to the test.You are invited to rebut the following line by line and point by point. Let's hope for a little more than the hollow silence following the last little excercise in truth.

1: The JAA written exams have almost zero practical use. They are simply a hoop to jump over to gain membership of a very exclusive club because there is no GA industry in Europe to weed out those who won't make it. In countries with a thriving, if badly paid, GA scene other hurdles are presented barring the way to a jet flight deck such as the requirement for a 4 year degree in the States. In small or emerging nations this can take the form of formal entrance exams or simply patronage, bribery or nepotism. For decades the tens of thousands of Eastern European pilots had to be lifelong members of the communist party as well as university graduates.

Your outlook or cultural background will be reflected in how you view each of these entirely artificial hurdles to getting on a flight deck. Not one of them reflects your skills as an aviator. They are simply an entry control mechanism.

The psychology works like this - because all these mechanisms are entirely artificial, can be interchanged with any other one and are inherently divorced from the reality of the job working pilots ignore and reject everything you are going through. Once a pilot is competent and comfortable on line they want absolutely nothing to do with the utter nonsense that preceeded doing the real job. This is a key to the next question so don't blow all your ammo answering this one!

2: Why do experienced, working pilots refuse to take part in the two wannabees forums? You can't stop them sticking their oar in at every possible and conceivable opportunity everywhere else on the site. By nature they are opinionated - this forum has the opposite effect. Why? I'm serious, why do they avoid these forums so assiduously?

3: The words of the professionals offering their thoughts on the modern profession in this thread more that accurately reflect the overwhelming opinion of those posting on the rest of the site. Forums which uttely dwarf the two here. Do you disagree with that?

4: However aviation mad a wannabee is, however much they've lived and breathed it they have as much real knowledge of working life in the flightdeck as I have of competitive football. Just because I'm a mad, passionate and very knowledgable fan doesn't mean I have the slightwest inkling of what is going on the head and heart of a participating player.

5: Do you disagree that you are working extrememely hard and going into immense debt to spend 12 and 13 hour days behing a locked and barred door? Some reading this might find the thought of 30 or even 40 years of that quite depressing - some reading this will actually find that distressing. The average airline flight deck is an exciting wonderworld to most reading this. Like any work environment, even an A+E department, it just becomes where you work in time. Do you dispute that the average flight deck, locked and barred is also the size of an surburban downstairs loo? Do you believe that everyone reading this is fully informed and aware of that and is happy at the thought of up to 30 years or more in that space?

6: Are you disputing that we are telling wannabees the truth. Are you disputing that no training school, FTO or even trade union will ever inform a prospective customer or member of the facts we offer?

7: With a few honourable exceptions do you disagree that the vast majority of people in FTO's and clubs have never actually done the job they are training each other for in a spiral of unintentional ignorance and intentional marketing.

As an analogy if you speak to a teacher, policeman, paramedic or doc in a 'front line' inner city they will all have the shared experience of being joined by fully qualified probationers who were taught by those who couldn't hack it in that real same world. Not liking it or being able to cope is not the problem - their unwarranted, inexperienced influence on each new generation into the ranks is. Each wannabee spends a thousand times more 'influential' time with peer figures in aviation but without a moments airline experience than with actual airline people.


8: Should there be a place where wannabees can get the truth from people who are licenced, who are doing the job, who have succeded in getting through the system with no silver spoons getting in the way of RT and aren't taking a penny from you? You can't have that without telling painful truths at times? Do you dispute that we are being truthful?

Answers by teatime, best handwriting and spelling counts except mine :uhoh:

Regards from the Towers
Rob

[Capt. Manuvar]

As a wannabe (PPL/night 60hrs, 22 yrs old), i can sympathize with both sides of the story.
I had always fancied the idea of a pilot as much as i fancied the idea of being an astronaut, movie star, etc. But i focused on a more 'conventional' career path in engineering cos of my love for things technical. At the age of 15, i went on my first commercial flight since i was 3 on a B767-200. That was were the facination with aviation began and i have not lost my enthusiasm yet. There are a lot of wannabes who still have the childlike enthusiasm to fly commercially but havent woken up to the reality of the industry.
At the moment i do all kinds of jobs to finance my training and this has given me the opportunity to work in different industries and i can tell you that there aren't too many industries out there that are much better off than aviation.
wint3rmute
I'm glad you decided to post. your career is considered to be one of the more appealing at the moment. there are loads of people my age fighting for places in medical school who dont the reality of the job e.g GP's work 62hrs a week on average. So i its safe to say think naivete is widespread among youngsters in our society reagrdless of the industry they are aiming for. Don't be suprised by the harsh responses you have recieved. in aviation its hard to get a point across,no matter how valid, if you do not have "experience".
The next time you meet any 'city' professionals earning £150-200k ask to see their blood pressure monitors. these devices have become more and more common among today's professional because of the increasing pressure put on them in today's target-driven economy. I have a friend whose a millioniare property developer in the US and he wouldn't leave home without his BP monitor. I would like to have his money but i'll think twice about wanting his lifestyle. And when it comes to living on the road, let's just say that long haul begins to look pretty good. Jet lag? someof these guys have enough 'flying hours' that if they were pilots they'll be able to land a crippled 747 backwards in a 50kt crosswind:} . I have an uncle who job has taken him to 170+ countries, try telling him about jet lag.
But i've got to say that airlines pilots long and short haul have a much better life than most people in todays society. The average brit earns £20-25k, works 40-50hrs (this figure is rising). The lifestyle of pilots has deteriorated over the past few years but pilots are still better off than the average worker. there are a lot of people who have gone into the aviation industry with the wrong expectations and they make up a large proportion of the "Whingers", but you have them in every industry.
My advice to fellow wannabes is that you get as much knowledge as you can before you dive headlong into this career or any career and you have a back up if things don't go according to plan. PPRUNE and it's founders/moderators/contributors has been an invaluable resource that a lot of us wannabes will forever be indebted to. But sometimes the genral opinion on pprune doesn't reflect reality, e.g. this thread has been mostly negative. Ask yourself how the public will feel if all pilots were to go on strike to protest deteriorating working conditions? Majority will feel little or no symathy.
I want to be a pilot because of my love for flying, travelling and sense of adventure and I'm aware of the downsides of the job.
Someone was suprised as to why most people don't go into business. the level of corporate bankrupcies have skyrocketed over the past few years and interest rates are rising. and if you want to know why some of us dont want to go into the city, well as i mentioned above there is more stress and longer working hours than in aviation and also the future isn't rosy when it comes to earning potential because of the fat-cat-pay revolt and a growing resentment of graduates (there is a feeling that a lot of graduates earn more than the really deserve or are doing jobs that aren't really necessary.
I personally think that the govt and industry in general will be forced to cut back on bureaucracy and waste in the future to reduce operating costs/tax and a lot of high earners will lose their jobs.
I am not putting my hopes on improving working conditions for pilots but i will do my best to make sure they do when i find myself in a position to do so, but it isn't about the money. There was a study recently that concluded that the happiest people earn £13000 (let's hope MOL doesnt read that:E ).
Capt. Manuvar

[Maximum]

Snigs, as Redsnail says, we've all been there. Seems like such a good idea at the time!! Just hope you enjoyed the Rioja....

Anyway, no worries. (And I think you'd find me surprisingly easy to get on with in the cockpit - even if I do say so myself!)

I'm not starting the whole argument up again, don't worry, but I think further explanation is important for all wanabees, because it directly affects your future working conditions in aviation.

Your Tom, Dick or Harry comparison provoked a reaction mainly because our status as professionals has been consistently attacked in recent times, especially so over the last decade. Many airlines have, and are, cutting our terms and conditions of employment down to the very bone.

One of the easiest ways they can achieve this is to portray the job as something less than it actually is. A job that anyone who has the money to pay for a licence can do. You see the problem? And obviously to the general public, shareholders etc, this would seem to make perfect sense. It's a job you buy your way into, why should they receive any more remuneration than a bus driver? Why shouldn't they work 12 hour days six days a week? And so the rot continues............

This is only one of the ways in which the quality of your life as a professional pilot is constantly under threat. (And most of that quality has now gone in the shorthaul game certainly but that's a different story).

So, if those of us on the inside don't do everything we can to preserve the totally justified perception of our professional status, then what hope do we all have? You can perhaps gauge more clearly now why you should do everything you can to promote the importance of that professional licence. We've enough people on the outside attacking it.

I can remember sitting in the right hand seat as a new F/O, back in the days when cockpit visits were allowed. And it used to drive me mad when some Captains would immediately say "it's flying on autopilot, all we have to do is sit here and watch it" or words to that effect. Or "it's easier than it looks once you get the hang of it" (sic)!!! Now these comments usually came from a misplaced sense of modesty, of not wanting to appear arrogant. What they failed to realise was that nine times out of ten they were simply confirming the publics' misconceptions about the job in the first place. You can imagine it - "what a job - they just sit there and push some buttons and the 'plane does it all for them - and they get paid a fortune".

So I always try to make sure I don't fuel these misconceptions. The job is tough and does require unique skills of mental agility, physical co-ordination, spatial awareness and management of both man and machine. And sometimes even good old fashioned bravery! We should never make it seem less than that. There are enough people out there trying to do that for us.

Anyway, thanks for the reply Snigs, once again, no worries.



Then I read Capt Manuvars post.........

There's a big dent in the brick wall where my head keeps hitting it.

Capt. Manuvar. Well, what can one say? Here we go again.

i can tell you that there aren't too many industries out there that are much better off than aviation ah, you've already worked as a pliot then?in aviation its hard to get a point across,no matter how valid, if you do not have "experience".well, erm, yes, that's because we have the experience and you don't!The next time you meet any 'city' professionals earning £150-200k ask to see their blood pressure monitors actually, high blood pressure through stress and a sedentary life style can be a big problem for pilots too you know.And when it comes to living on the road, let's just say that long haul begins to look pretty good. Jet lag? someof these guys have enough 'flying hours' that if they were pilots they'll be able to land a crippled 747 backwards in a 50kt crosswind erm yes but those "flying hours as you call them are spent eating, drinking, sleeping and watching movies down the back. But i've got to say that airlines pilots long and short haul have a much better life than most people in todays society how would you actually know? That's what I'd really like you to tell me - how would you know?? You obviously know better than me.there are a lot of people who have gone into the aviation industry with the wrong expectations and they make up a large proportion of the "Whingers", I suppose you'd class me as one of them then. I had the wrong expectations, and I'm just a whinger.My advice to fellow wannabes is that you get as much knowledge as you can before you dive headlong into this career yes, but you seem incapable of properly assimilating this knowledge.Ask yourself how the public will feel if all pilots were to go on strike to protest deteriorating working conditions? Majority will feel little or no symathy nicely backs up the point I was making in my last post.it isn't about the money. There was a study recently that concluded that the happiest people earn £13000 I can forgive you this because you're young. But I can assure you that come your thirties and forties, money will be a big issue, probably the biggest next to health. Sure, money can't by happiness, but it stops you being a slave, and the more you have of it, the more choices you have in life, therefore the more freedom. And I'll tell you, freedom goes a long way to getting you near to happiness. want to be a pilot because of my love for flying, travelling and sense of adventure and I'm aware of the downsides of the job now that's funny. Love for flying - great, a prerequisite. Travel? Sense of adventure? Join the army and try and get into special forces.

Here's what to do. Take your computer, load up MS Flightsim and set yourself up in the broomcupboard. Ask a grouchy neighbour in his mid fifties who you don't particularly like to come in with you. Get your mum/wife/girlfriend to lock the door and be on the other end of a mobile when you want something - but only now and then. Run the hoover in the cupboard to simulate flight deck noise levels with the recirc fans. Now stay in there flying routes. Make sure you do all the proper RT. Checklists. Oh, and make sure you let the neighbour be the Captain and run the show. (Remember you don't really like him). Have a crappy TV dinner thingy for lunch. Eat it on your knee with the hoover still going - that's the cleaners. Eat it in five minutes 'cos you're late. Go outside in the rain and get wet. That's the walkround. Do lots of performance calculations. Repeat ad nauseam at all times of the day and night for six days. Give yourself two days off, finishing at midnight then getting up at four thirty in the morning to start all over. Do this for years. Then eventually you can swap seats with your neighbour, and his son can come and be your F/O. Continue until retirement.

This is not, I repeat not, meant to be a comparison with other jobs. That is largely irrelevant - it's you guys who keep coming up with the comparisons. But it is meant to give you a taste of reality, not fantasy.

[scroggs]

Hey, wint3rmute I love my job. And I care enough about it that I don't want people joining it under a misapprehension of what it really entails. Most of all, I don't want to have to fly with people who whinge about it not being what they expected.

So, as the schools will not whisper a breath about what it's really like, we have to tell the warts'n'all stuff here. Why don't the schools tell the truth? Mostly because they don't actually know what working in the airlines is actually like in the 21st century - many don't even posess an ex-airline pilot on their staff! But, by Christ, they'll hype it up to the eyeballs and then some...... because they need the Wannabes' dosh. They don't give a flying toss what you discover once you've qualified and they've got your £60,000.

Don't believe me? Go and ask your school's instructors when they last flew in an airliner as other than passengers! Ask them what are the prevalent issues that airline pilots face, as identified by BALPA and the IPA? Where are the lectures on the downsides of our lifestyle and how to cope with them - and, most importantly, how to prepare your family for them?

Because of the perceived glamour, the downsides of airline flying are dismissed as whingeing, but the reality is that it is as hard as any career out there - and maybe harder than most. The NHS environment has become a byword for poor working practices, long shifts and burned-out workers (and profligate spending on fripperies, consultants and management - but hey, this is a pilots' thread on a pilots' site!), but it's not the only one to suffer these problems - just the best known.

'Keep your eyes open, and don't believe the hype' is really the message we're trying to give. If you stick to that, you're far more likely to avoid disillusionment and to actually enjoy the realities of this career.

Scroggs

[G SXTY]

OK Rob, here goes:

1) Agreed. The whole object of the exercise is to get the little blue licence and then get a foothold on the employment ladder. This forum is stacked out with people trying to do just that, and I can easily see why – once ensconced in the cockpit – the trials and tribulations of getting there lose relevance and fade into the background.

2) Maybe, just maybe, it’s because when they do try and offer an insight into what the job is really like, they are very often shot down by an audience that doesn’t want to hear the message. That is precisely the point I tried to make 3 pages ago. Bonkers if you ask me, as it simply puts people off trying – maybe it’s a reflection of the ages of some of our posters, maybe it comes from being anonymous - I really don’t know.

3) I can’t argue with that. Like I’ve already said, I’d love to hear some words of encouragement from experienced (say 5 years plus) commercial pilots, but they are conspicuous by their absence. All the pilot’s I’ve jumpseated with were welcoming, encouraging and positive about the future in aviation. Obviously that was before 9/11.

Your description and prognosis suggests that fewer and fewer people will decide this is the career for them. That must trouble you as much as anyone?

4) Correct. Now that the flightdeck door is firmly shut, we rely more than ever on information such as this forum provides. We can hang around airfields and hope to meet someone on their day off, but what else can we do?

5) No, I don’t disagree at all. You might also have mentioned strange smells from the forward toilet, lowered immune systems from having a permanently disjointed body clock, the effects of spending your working life cooped up in extremely dry rarefied air. Some of us are aware that the job isn’t really that glamorous – or even healthy – and we still want to do it. I must be barmy.

6) Nope, not at all. You’ve got no axe to grind and you’re not trying to make a profit out of me.

7) Like you, I can think of a few exceptions, but yes, they are few and far between.

8) No argument.

Not exactly a point by point rebuttal, but I think I’ve at least managed to spell most of it correctly.

And a quick question for you; with the benefit of hindsight, if you could turn the clock back, risk it all and follow your dream, would you do it all again? Answers (a) as at September 10th 2001, and (b) today.

[PPRuNe Towers]

G SXTY

Great reply but it would be expected from you and few other of the wise heads. Your point 5 was actually better than mine.

But enough of the carefree banter - some straight answers.

Prior to the mid 1990's I'd do it again in a heart beat. Bear in mind that even then the old hands said, with genuine accuracy, that it wasn't the job it was. It was then that we lost slot after slot and went hours into discretion doing baggage ID's. Years later 911 has only formalised and speeded up what was already happening.

Post mid 1990's/911 and under generic UK management working in the 'spirit' of Cap 371 I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Whether carrying on with previous profession or skills or retraining in a hands dirty trade I would have the time to fly my Jodel and, once re-established, the money to start playing with interesting aircraft of the vintage, warbird or rotary ilk. This is an amateur website in the best sense of the word - I'd love to be an amateur pilot in the best and most enjoyable meaning as well. This thread is here to point out that we suspect many of you would actually be far happier following that route. Especially once you have families - some of you will have or had absent parents and know what I mean. Imagine growing up, every birthday you ever had not, knowing if your mum or dad would be there. Every one of them. You too can be that parent.

If it ends up that there are fewer of you it will, according to market economics, mean that the job will improve or at least slow down the decrements in income, perks and quality of life. In reality it probably just means Reddo will get all her mates over.....

However, a confession, most full time pilots would cheerfully kill to get my Boeing job. It is very different, very demanding at times and I rather like it. The reason - well I don't work as an airline pilot anymore.

Regards
Rob

[Maximum]

Rob says it all.

We're not just displaying the changing viewpoint that you'd expect from anyone who's been in any business for some time.

The job really has changed enormously. The rot set in in the early nineties, then started to accelerate throughout the rest of the decade.

Before then, I too would do it all over again at the drop of a hat. But with the working conditions you're looking at now, it's just not an attractive or sensible proposition. So much better to make money and fly for yourself in my opinion.

And as well as missing kids' birthdays, there's Christmas as well. For a lot of airlines these days, Christmas is just another day. Not very nice looking back to all the times you might have dissapointed your kids.

These words are meant in the sincerest way. Don't believe the hype.

[What to do?]

Why don’t you all quit and become barristers? You’d be pretty damn good!

After being shot down in flames a page or two ago, I don’t think I’ll offer any more opinion than the one above. I do however have a couple of questions.

1)How have the working hours got so much worse? Are they not rigidly restricted?

2)Exactly how have things changed since 9/11? I don’t know anything more than the bolted door and increased pre flight security. I’m really not interested in ‘I can’t believe you don’t know responses’ – I don’t fly jets.

3)Do you even get to leave the cockpit for a stretch? What about DVT?

4)Am I correct in assuming that given the continuation of terrorist activities and the subsequent 8% drop in BA’s shares last week that this lack of faith will keep things this way? So no jumpseats then?

Kind regards

[Artificial Horizon]

I have been reading this tread with interest, there have been a lot of good points raised by people on both sides of the argument.

What I find is that the 'wannabes' as previously stated seem to be looking at the whole aviation industry through rose tinted glasses. This in itself is not a problem, what the problem seems to be is that when an experienced pilot makes a post on this forum pointing out the realities of life as a pilot he or she is cut down.

The main reply seems to be along the lines of 'I love flying and have always wanted to be a pilot so will not get bored and certainly won't winge!'. I must admit that when I was a wannabe I held this exact view, I thought 'hey if you don't like the job and want to winge then give up and let someone like me who loves flying do the job'.

What people have to realise is that most of us love flying and have always wanted to be pilots, if you didn't then the chances of putting up with all of the trials and tribulations along the way would be slim. The harsh reality is though that a love of flying and all things aviation will not stop you from becoming bored and disenchanted with the job, especially when you can see conditions becoming worse by the month.

Yes we are protected by 'flight time limitations', I can tell you though that when you fly to the limits of these limitations day in day out you soon start to wonder whether they do in fact prevent fatigue. I have done all sorts of work from office to labouring and have never been as knackered as I am at the end of a six day stint doing six sectors a day with twenty five minute turn arounds.

In the past this was compensated for by the 'bennefits and pay' that a pilot could expect, these to though have all but dissappeared, it is cheaper for me to book travel through a travel agent than to buy a ticket from 'staff travel'. If I want anything to drink besides water on board the aircraft I have to pay 'normal rates', no discount for staff, I can't run into the terminal to buy a can of coke becuase you get searched both ways which in itself is not a problem except when you have twenty five minutes to offload, reload, fuel, complete paperwork and get underway for the next sector. As for the pay, yes some senior jobs do certainly get paid well. This is not a comfort though when your average wage is used to maintain the tens of thousands of pounds of debt you will accrew on the way to your licence.

Having said all of this, the flying ultimately makes up for all of this, just please enter the industry with eyes open.

A.H:)

[Maximum]

Why don’t you all quit and become barristers? You’d be pretty damn good! - that made me chuckle What to do? - I suppose there is a touch of the Perry Mason's about some of our posts! :D

In answer to your questions, I'll try to keep it brief:1)How have the working hours got so much worse? Are they not rigidly restricted? the trouble is, the restrictions allow too much work before they kick in. Lorry drivers are under far more limiting controls. The flight time limitations were meant to be a worse case scenario once in a while. Now we're rostered up to them nearly every time we go to work. Days are much longer, earlier starts and later finishes. Out of bed at 0330-0400 and home with the office workers week after week is not uncommon. Lates a similar length. In some companies constantly away from home. More air traffic. Greater delays. Reduced seperation. Constant ATC chatter. Constant company monitoring of your performance. Unable to safely have a glass of wine with your evening meal before earlies the next day due to new regs. Just about able to have a social drink in the pub on your first day off out of two. Finishing at midnight before two days off, starting on earlies. It's always been a serious job obviously, but we used to have "fun" as well as being responsible. The "fun" has now largely gone. Twenty five minute turnrounds mean you work constantly from beginning to end, locked in that little cockpit. No chats round the coffee machine. No lunch break. No loo apart from the smelly old aeroplane toilet. etc etc........
2)Exactly how have things changed since 9/11? I don’t know anything more than the bolted door and increased pre flight security. Well, the locked door is a biggy. We used to feel less like battery hens. Nice when the cabin crew could come in for a chat when things were less busy. Nice when you got the odd cup of tea or cofee handed in from crew who were your friends as well as colleagues. The open door fostered a good sense of teamwork, and just made the work much more agreeable. Now it's a major security operation if you want to go to the loo. And with short turnrounds, you can't even nip into the terminal. It might seem petty, but the increased security checks start to drive you nuts on top of everything else. We are going to be at the controls, but we're treated like prime suspects! Family can no longer travel with us or even visit us in the cockpit. (By the way they still had to pay just in case you get the wrong idea). And of course there is the actual increased threat to our lives!! 3)Do you even get to leave the cockpit for a stretch? What about DVT? Well, things like DVT and fatigue only apply to passengers - nobody ever seems to consider that we are human beings too! And basically, it's very hard to get out for a stretch these days.4)Am I correct in assuming that given the continuation of terrorist activities and the subsequent 8% drop in BA’s shares last week that this lack of faith will keep things this way? So no jumpseats then? Yup, no jumpseats. Even for family.

The bottom line is, we are now treated like hamsters on a wheel. Get locked into the cockpit, minimal food and water, work up to the limits, go home, eat, sleep and start all over again. And don't make a mistake. Lots of stress and pressure and very little fun I'm afraid.

[jam123]

Dear all,

I have read this thread with great interest and i think a lot of the concerns raised here actually varies quite significantly from one operartor to another. Could AH, Maximum and others who have made comments on their lifestyles please let us know who they work for and at the very least let us know if they are majors, regionals, GA etc etc. Then we may be able to put all this into perspective!

Jam

[redsnail]

I worked for a night freight operator flying Sheds in the UK. Resignation takes effect this Thurs, off to a lo-co.

I doubt many of the working guys will state the company who they work for. Anonymity and all.....
For me it's too hard to remain anonymous.

[scroggs]

jam123 yes, I was also getting concerned that Maximum's posts would be seen as applying to all ailines!

As most of you know, I work for Virgin Atlantic. The vast majority of my flying is ultra-long haul (12 hour sectors). While we don't have an open cockpit door, we do have an effective security set up which allows relatively easy access by the crew, and the sector lengths mean that it is impractical (and bloody dangerous) to prohibit excursions by pilots.

I don't work every day, but I do work very long hours, which often do approach the restrictions, even with the extensions permitted by the use of three or even four pilots. I do still get around 12-15 days off at home every month, but sleep absorbs many of them!

The security restricions have reduced the attractiveness, and the availability, of staff travel, and we can't now use flight deck jump seats for family members, but to be honest a busy airline will dump staff travellers in favour of full-fare peeps - and always did! Maybe I'm unusual, but I can't see the point of travelling in my spare time - that's my job!

Anyway, for me the job is still good, but not as good as it was. Trouble is, you've pretty much got to go through a period at one of the airlines like Max's before you can get to something like Virgin.

[Maximum]

jam123 and scroggs, apologies if I've given the impression there isn't variation between operators and short haul/long haul.

I am obviously talking from a "short" haul jet perspective. I say "short" because two sectors sometimes there and back can add up to a long haul flight time, but that's another story. Most wanabees who make it will be heading for this type of operation.

Another thing to remember, and I'm sure scroggs would agree, is that long haul doesn't suit everyone. In my own career I could have gone down this route but I don't like long sectors and I'd prefer to be at home at night (not that short haul has always given me this either!). Horses for courses I guess.

Average days off per month these days in short haul jet operation between 8 and 10 depending on the operator. But remember, you're working earlies, lates etc and generally finishing lates before days off and starting earlies, so in reality you're getting less time off than the average while having no time for anything social on the days you work.

I must point out, my posts are not intended to be a "downer" on flying in any way. I love flying. It's the rest of the cr*p I hate. My intention is to give you the reality behind the myth as I see it - it's obviously up to you guys to decide what you do with it.:cool:

[scroggs]

Max, you're absolutely right - long haul doesn't suit everyone! I fly with one or two who should definitely move back to short haul, but there you go. Short haul is too intense for me. Time away from home is relative - I spend more time away in one go, but I get to take the kids to school and I get lunch in the pub occasionally, so I'm happy with that. The ex-wife wasn't, though... and she would have hated the short-haul lifestyle even more. So it's well worth all wannabes thinking very carefully about what this job does to family life.

As you rightly point out, short-haul is where you guys are going, at least for a few years. I know there are one or two of you who occasionally get a long-haul sector with Britannia, Monarch etc, but that is not living the long haul lifestyle!

[Snigs]

Maximum, now I see where you’re coming from, and I understand your reaction.

The reality checks here are sobering ( :O ). Sadly, I believe the mindset attached to the management of the lo-co’s with their lower margins etc. are here to stay and I’d be surprised if things change much for the better. I guess what you describe is the norm rather the exception with the lo-co’s.

The problem is that I’m a coward. Having spent the amount of money that I have on training I can’t turn to my wife and say “Sorry I blew that £60k darling (that bigger house you deserve, and all those nice holidays…..), but I’ve decided that I’m not going to be a commercial pilot after all” That just wouldn’t be fair.

I think that this is what you’re up against in trying to give us a realistic view from the flight deck. I don’t think (most) wannabes dismiss your advice out of hand, it’s stupid to ignore the people who know, but no matter how it’s depicted or perceived, I’m just going to have to find out for myself. Then and only then will I feel justified saying to myself and my wife and family, “OK I did it, it’s crap, I’ll cut my losses and consider it as a gamble that didn’t suit me. Now wasn’t there a job at McDonalds going?”

Then, Maximum, Towers, Scroggs et al I shall buy you all a beer (or a burger) and you can say “I told you so” as often as you like!! :)

[redsnail]

Hey Snigs, you've already bought me the bourbons. :E
If you want to go "ahhhhh" have a squizz at the pics on my website. There's stuff there that the jet jockey's will never see. (I should update it though)
As Maximum and Scroggs have said, the flying is great fun. It's the management weeners that make the job suck.

[Snigs]

Already seen your website, impressive stuff!! :D

I still chuckle at your story about "bombing" a suspect vessel... :cool:

[Craggenmore]

I also have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. Some of the replies have made me laugh and cry in equal measure. I only really wanted to chip in and talk a little about how my flight training has started to seemingly prepare me for the 'life after', having read what has already been laid down by the experienced.

I'm on an integrated course - Started just after the new year back in early 2003. We were 20 at the start, six months after the off, we were down to eleven, so perhaps Tom, Dick and Harry weren't on my course.

Groundschool was an amazing experience. It was obviously very similiar to being at school but with a great big point to it. I say this as I'm eleven years past A levels and eight past a degree and never, regretfully, studied aviation related topics to a higher level back then. However, over the first six months of groundschool, I lost touch with a number of friends and never had the time to enjoy the former life and social habits that I once enjoyed. I simply locked myself in my room and read...and read...and read. Phase 1 passed and it was on to the first stage of flying, CPL level.

My first phase of flying was conducted overseas and lasted for four months. Just before I departed, I split with my girlfriend of five years. What can I say...

Passed the CPL first time though.

After returning to the UK it was on to Phase 2 groundschool. Met a new Flame who flies for a major too!

Very hard to get started again. Had no Xmas as well for JAA exams were in January! But a couple of quick months passed and before I knew it, all fourteen subjects in the bag. A great achievement but very few people to share it with (class mates aside). No one from my former life understood! For the past nine months, time had stood still for them.

Great...on to the IR then...

My instructor, an ex 747 training captain, likes to be wheels up at 7.30am...first slot of the day stuff here (no 'passenger only' instructor either...). I wake at 5am to ensure we make make our departure slot, but hark...the de-ice team are late - yikes, the mass and balance spreadsheet has crashed-got to do it by hand! Worse still, you've walked all the way out to the aircraft on the apron and the fuel strainer has vanished! Tick-tock...

The cockpit environment frequently can resemble boot camp. Lose 50 feet, ouch. Slow in selecting a nav frequency, ouch. 3 degrees off heading - ouch!

Just like to say I had a great Valentines day this year. Shame the Flame had to get up on Sunday 15th Feb at 4am to get to EGKK by 6am...

Got my IR next week, so fingers crossed. Got no past job waiting for me either.

Happy - not sure.

Unhappy - not sure.

Unsure - very sure...

Oh and by the way, if you thought breaking up with a girl after 5 years was bad, here's a gag...

I phoned up a really gorgeous ex-girlfriend of mine the other day. We lost track of time, chatting about the wild nights we used to enjoy together. I couldn't BELIEVE it when she asked if I'd like to meet up and maybe rekindle a little of that magic.

"Wow!" I said "I don't know if I could keep pace with you now! I'm a bit older and a bit balder than when you last saw me!"

She giggled and said she was sure I'd meet the challenge! "Yeah," I said, "Just so long as you don't mind a man with a waistband that's a few inches wider these days!"

She laughed and told me to stop being so silly! She teased me, saying she thought tubby bald men were cute!

"Anyway", she said, "I've put on a couple of pounds myself!"

So I hung up.

Cheers...

Craggs

[DHdragon]

Hello all,
I'm new here, I've been reading for a while but this is my first post.

To those who have had a previous career outside aviation and have made the transition to airline pilot (or visa-versa), I was wondering whether you regret making the change?

Some here seem to be trying to compare the benefits/drawbacks of an airline career with those of other careers. I don't wish to draw comparisons between various careers. I'd just be interested to know if, given the chance to start from scratch, would people who have experienced flying and another career rather be working for an airline or working in their other occupation.

DHdragon

P.S. - To those who run/contribute to these forums, its a great resourse, thanks alot!

[redsnail]

That is an interesting question..
I was a lab technician at a university in Sydney, Australia.
In the 10 years that have passed since I left there I would have got myself a degree in any thing. So I would have been able to be promoted higher or left that course of employment. I most certainly would have paid off my mortgage and probably moved to a much better place. I would have saved a fortune on gym fees and food. ($10 a year at uni.) I would have had guaranteed 7 weeks off per year and known my "roster" 6 months in advance.
In other words, financially I would have been streets ahead. Uni didn't pay brilliantly, when I left I was earning $A28K 10 years ago. It would have been about $A35K or more 4 years ago. When I left Australia to come to the UK, I was earning $A40K as a turboprop pilot(FO).
Yes, I have had a fun career but it has left me perilously short of funds for my retirement. I have only 26 years left to set myself up for that.
Would I do it again? At the age when I started yes, however, I would do things differently. Would I start now at 38? No.

[pa28biggles]

What an interesting thread this has turned out to be.:) It is good to see the objective views about a pilot career.
One thing that seems very prevailent though, is splitting up from the girlfriend/wife. I have known this for a long time, but the point has be reiterated on this forum. Its quite shocking for me; I have been going out with my girlfriend for 3 years, I couldn't split up with her. In fact, I am determined to have an aviation career and to keep my partner happy.
Is there anyone out there that has trained from 0hrs to employed pilot, without the pilot career being the cause of the brake-up? I am sure there is, but it would be nice to hear of some success stories for a change :ok:

[mad_jock]

Just a note from one of last years wannabies.

The job, is it what I expected?

err no not really.

All the things i thought were going to be major parts of my day arn't really.

The flying side of things only really accounts for about 30% of the days work. The rest is pre flight planning, legalities of if you are allowed to launch or not. Various cockups in ground handling, rush bags, catering, ops wanting things, tech problems etc etc.

The point where you get gear up is usually the easy bit. Getting from A to B safe is lacking the same drama as on the ground. Some times its a bit hair raising and you have to work hard other times its not like working at all.

Now the tiredness working a 800-900 hour year as an FO compared to the same number of hours instructing is incomparable. Which is why I proberly why i am feeling more alive than at any point since I started training.

As for the dumping the partner thing, yes I did that as well. Better do it sooner rather than later. Flying is a way of life which dosn't fit with normal jobs. Its the same with policing and any other 24h service industry. Which is maybe why so many IT types do so well in the industry, their hours actually get better. The hours i am working now are about 70% less than as a contractor and they are alot better planned as well. But then again i may be lucky getting a faily stable roster for 4 weeks 2 weeks in advance.

Am I still glad I became a pilot, hell yes.

But you do get out of the job what you put into it.
Personally i can't be arsed moaning about everything I knuckle down and get on with it, and try and learn as much as I can. But I havn't been on line for a year yet and don't have any idea what it was like in the good old days.

So in summary

I work less hours than I have done in the previous 10 years of my working life
I get a great buzz out of going to work (always wake up before the alarm)
And I am doing a job which if had been possible before I went to Uni I would have done at the age of 17 instead of 30.

MJ

[no sponsor]

Be prepared to be the person who wears the trousers in the relationship.

My partner told me I had to wear them. :}

[High Wing Drifter]

Which is maybe why so many IT types do so well in the industry, their hours actually get better.
Maybe another reason other than the hours is the technically oriented subject matter, constant need for research, training as well as the extremely flexible mindset that goes with a successful IT career.

[scroggs]

There are people who've managed to keep the same partner throughout their careers in airlines, but they are few and far between. I'd venture to say that the majority of those are survivors from an earlier, less pressured, era.

I know of almost no-one who's joined the industry in the last 5 or 6 years who's managed to keep their marriage going. There's no support for relationships in this industry; when you're away, your partner is on their own. They either learn to survive the single life, doing all the jobs that you once did for the household, or they ship out. They usually ship out, I'm afraid.

This is one of the most fundamental differences between the airlines and the military, where I did 22 years. In the military, there was a support system for spouses left behind. Social occasions included those left on their own; the much-decried wives clubs kept an eye out for all the vulnerable ones and made sure they were looked after. The burdens were shared. That just does not happen in the airlines (nor, I'd guess, in most other careers).

Would I have joined the airlines if I'd known more about what it's really like? No, I probably wouldn't.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well I'll be the awkward one as usual then!

I think being an airline pilot is a great job and beats the vast majority of others. I'm not just being contrary - everything I say now I have said before on these pages.

I've just counted, for Jan, Feb and Mar I've worked 16 days a month average. I've been home every night between midnight and 4am or else I've been in a hotel full of crew on training and therefore in the pub or restaurant until cough o'clock.

I gross about £46,000 a year which is more than just about any of my mates apart from the one who works in London for a bank. He's just bought a £400,000 flat that fits inside mine twice and he's had to go halves with his brother.

My other friends in decent jobs all hate them. Another one just this year qualifying as a GP is going to be £130,000 in debt when he buys into a practice later this year and he's 30 and doesn't own a house. My only friend who is earning more and having a better lifestyle is a self employed chippy - but he's worrying that he won't be able to take the physical side of the job when he's 40 and then whats he going to do etc.

Another old chum is in the Airforce on GR4s and hates the miniscule amount of flying he gets based in the frozen North where endless reams of people push paperwork and non-war tasks at him. He can't wait to get out and do what I am doing.

Now I moan and bitch about work - don't get me wrong. But if you really pin me down as to what I would rather do then I'm hard pushed to be realistic. I think I am happier and better paid and more long term secure in my job than any of my contemporaries and chums. Thats got to be worth something.

I had a cracking day to day, into a misty Venice, back out over the sunset Alps, overhead an early evening London then a quick nip up to Glasgow for a lovely visual approach and back. No hassles, great crew, lovely pax. Shame to take the money. It depends what floats your boat and where you take your pleasures really. If its status, social life, money and glamour then Airline Pilot no longer has much of that - look elsewhere.

If its just a bug you have and always have had then you'll love it. Simple as that.

A very wise very senior pilot told me something during my initial line training for my first airline. He said, and I quote,

"There is no such thing as The Perfect Job in aviation. Many pilots think that there is - and make themselves miserable because they don't have it.

Don't be one of them".


I think thats the best advice I ever received.

Cheers

WWW

[Harves]

In one sense, I am writing now to bring this thread back to the top, because I feel it should be there, even after this time. On the other hand, I am writing somewhat hindered due to a lump of humble pie in my hand.

I have not logged on for a while and have enjoyed reading the whole thread tonight. The only exception to that being my own reply. Thankfully I did apply an after thought to it. But I certainly see things from a different light tonight which will reflect in future posts. My reaction to the initial post was not based on rose tinted glasses as such, but more in relation to my knowing or feeling that I was not stereotypically ignorant to the industry. Just that for years, I had felt frustrated about being prevented from doing something that I loved....in my case for pleasure or "profit".

What I now realise is, how I may have come accross to those already there. I am sure that nobody felt that I was being derogatory, but I certainly would like to say that a fifty pence piece has dropped in relation to how some comments may be construed by those experienced in the industry, from us partially informed wannabes, as frustrating at best and certainly in light of some posts as potentially damaging for the status of professional pilots.

Although this thread appears thankfully to have calmed, I would like to echo the voices of appology by us wannabes and encourage all those with indepentant experience to continue to advise us without fear of a poorly thought out hammering.

Finally without sounding like I am too much up certain orifices (nothing in it for me....Virgin a distant dream) but I would like to say publically how much Scroggs's posts impress me. In my experience thay are always balanced, thought out, honest and concise. This thread particularly has proven that to me. I am sure he like others, wanted to burst at some comments, but he never did.

So here's to Scroggs....and indeed all at PPrune and those that post for our benefit.

Happy and healthy lives what ever we do.

Harves

[Little Friend]

Jam123
check your PM

[deathcruzer]

I think there is more to be said on this subject.....

[bazzaman96]

I read the post from the lawyer with interest, being a law student myself! I can sympathise completely with his plight - being stuck on The Strand from 8am to 9pm (with an hour commuting either end) is no life when you could be at 30,000 feet thrashing through the clouds.

Really, I'd like to direct the conversation onto a related topic that's been touched on here - whether people want to go into aviation as a career or want a career, with aviation on the side.

What would people prefer? Flying for a job, or having a job that funds flying?

I'd argue that the latter cuts out a lot of the negative points raised earlier, though of course you don't fly as often. That may in fact make it more interesting, though limit your flying options.

Any opinions?

[High Wing Drifter]

1st Choice would be flying as a job.

2nd Choice would be flying as an instructor part-time, but ready to seize upon any opportunities.

3rd Choice would be having a job that funds flying.

My current approach is that I am going for all three! I am actively seeking opportunities or promotion within my current job and working towards my ATPL. If one wins over the other then so be it.

[DeeTee]

Grief...what a thread this is!!

Anyway I have only been flying commercially for 5 years....when I last got involved in a 'what'it all about thread' it was about 2.5 years ago and at that point in my career I loved every minute of it. 2.5 years later howsit going? Well I've changed companies and now work lo-cost flying the 737. And....I still love it!!

I enjoy the job immensely, the things that others see as stressful and a bad side to the job I think are challangeing and fun. Yep, some airports security staff are morons of the highest order, but I don't fly out of those airports. Where I fly from the banter between crew and security is fun, they know us, and we know them. Yep, the crew still pop in and visit...especially on an early morning Faro when all the punters are asleep. Lots of cups of tea...food is quite nice really. We still get time to visit the crew shops where they are provided and visits to duty free shops can also be made with a lot of crew co-operation. Salary is very good really, workload is not too hard for me. However, I suspect that is down solely to my base, as my compatriots at Luton seem to have it a lot worse.

Anyway, I love the views, the flights, the challenges, the banter, the ever changing SOP's....what I don't like.......when the beef stew has a bit of gristle in it!! That winds me up. ;) apart from that it's fine :)

DT

[Master Yoda]

Instead of spending all that cash and possibly no job at the end why not do this...

I am joking of course, but press here. (http://www.chicken-cottage.co.uk/2003/franchise.asp)

:E

[Finals19]

Very interesting thread....and I am gonna throw in another perspective here -

I worked for the UK's biggest for six years - not as a pilot but as Cabin Crew. In this six years, my job was basically my whole life - especially on L/Haul as I am sure all the Longhaul guys on here will attest to. I saw and experienced at first hand the working conditions and daily issues between company and onboard crews. Yes, the conditions could have arguably been better, yes people moaned, and yes in all honesty the conditions have detiorated over the years.

However, I believe that any form of aviation work (notably on board) is a passion and that is what keeps us in it. As mentioned, the feeling you get when you are sitting up there at 30 something thousand looking out over some spectacular scene (be it the Swiss Alps or the Canadian Rockies) makes you glad that you are not in the 9-5 office based / train platform syndrome. And as you are on short finals over the M25 (or on the climb out) and you look down and see all those guys bumper to bumper, I think you realise you are in a pretty unique world. I know it sounds romanticised, but its the reality in my opinion.

Yes, it can be lonely (as Scroggs said) and relationships are very hard to hold down. Its something you learn to deal with I think. The loneliness can get to you at times, and that is hard. But ask the majority of airline crew if they would change their jobs and most would say definitely not.

I am temporarily out of the loop. And I miss it badly. I think its in the blood - a real passion. I have just completed my CPL/MEIR and am now looking at ways of getting back in as a pilot, since as cabin crew I was totally bitten by the desire to fly. So, all you wannabees, I say to you go for it, because (as noted previously on here) if its in your blood you are always going to regret not giving it a shot. It can be done! (and for my own sake, I have to believe that!!:D )

[PPRuNe Towers]

Something I wished I'd said earlier is troubling me - I mean in terms of getting it over.

Most here, certainly the majority, can drive. Remember when you could only change gear by actually looking down at it? Soon passes and becomes utterly automatic.

Well at some point in your flying career a huge proportion of your everyday routine flight has reached that category. Yup, I know we're always learning but by then such advances are now incremental.

There is a percentage of pilots who develop an itch, a very persistent and definite itch which I can only sum up as a realisation that flying isn't satifying some vital part of their brain, intellect or personality. How they deal with it is entirely different - some climb into management, some start a business, some take up a totally engrossing sport. Whichever way they go they strive to cut down the amount of flying they do so they can satisfy another part of their personal makeup. This desire can become very strong indeed and what I'm trying to describe is in no way a criticism. It seems that over the years most of my true friends in aviation actually need something other than just flying to feel complete.

I'm certain that a proportion of you are actually the same and in terms of an entire career would get more out of life by funding flying through a more stimulating and challenging use of your curiousity and intellect.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[jajabinks]

I agree with what has been said :O :ok: But you gotta weigh it up, i mean the cost $$ involved etc. I got a question: I've decided to be a pilot but from the posts above it seems it's much more difficult & costly than what I figured. If u had £40,000 would u spend it on pilot training or follow the amusing suggestion of Master Yoda above??
:8

[Justiciar]

This has been a very interesting thread. As someone who came to flying relatively late in life I will never have the option of earning a living by professional flying. But, from where I am working to pay for flying is no bad option. In just over a year since qualifying I have an IMC and night qualification and have the chance to fly two aircraft in which I hold shares, one of which is a tail dragger. I shall shortly be starting on aerobatics in a Chippy! In the near future I will do the CPL, not because I want a career but for the challenge.

My point is that there is more than one way to get to fly. Professional flying is almost unique as a career in terms of the up front financial committment required and the currently very poor prospects of full time employment in the industry. I have never trained as a professional pilot but I know several who have, some of whom have sucessfully obtained jobs and who love every minute, one other at least who now after several years finds the work routine and a little unfulfilling. One of the best pilots and instructors I know (not just my inexperienced opinion) has been unable to find any commercial employment at all after several years. Of course it is the same with many jobs: hours of routine punctuated by prief moments of real excitment and and challenge.

This forum and comments elsewhere suggests that many wannabies will meet years of frustration in finding work and some will never obtain employment. It does no harm to consider whether money may not be better spent.

[deathcruzer]

Just to throw another stone in the pit......Are there any more careers out there where someone with 10 years with a company, a captain ,is made redundant and the best job he can find has him at the bottom of the list again.......to a first officer??????.Lots of companies don’t take direct entry commands. :bored:

[Justiciar]

Are there any more careers out there where someone with 10 years with a company, a captain ,is made redundant and the best job he can find has him at the bottom of the list again

Says alot about the industry at present - the free market idea of supply and demand. At the moment and for some years past supply has greatly exceeded demand, making it an employers market, forcing down salaries and devaluing experience. Things are unlikely to change as long as there are so many chasing their dream!

[G SXTY]

I wish I’d seen your post earlier Rob, because it really strikes a chord.

I remember my first driving lesson, at the tender age of 17, and having to look where I was going, steer, grapple with the gear lever and work 3 pedals with 2 feet. “Impossible” I thought. “I’ll never be able to do that.” 15 accident-free years and 1 IAM test later, I think I’ve pretty much got the hang of it.

That feeling came back to me the first ever time I turned finals, with a whole hour in my log book. In a healthy crosswind I pointed the nose at the runway, and was somewhat disconcerted to see it slowly drift away from us. :confused: Or the first time I had a go at actually landing the thing. “Impossible” I thought . . .

These days I liken my flying to the early days after I’d passed my driving test. Yes I’m legal and safe enough to go off on my own, but I lack experience and I’m acutely aware that there is no-one watching over me if I get it wrong. In short, I know just enough to be dangerous. That gets the adrenaline going, and the challenge of increasing my experience without killing myself helps to make flying a bit of an obsession.

I take your point that it won’t always be like that, that eventually it will become routine – automatic even - and your comparison with driving is a good one. However, although driving a car is totally routine these days, I still get a kick out of it. I huff and puff about traffic jams / cameras / other drivers / how the roads were much emptier when I were’t lad, but I still take great personal pride in getting from A to B smoothly and safely, in getting passengers to fall asleep when I’m driving, in getting 50,000 miles from a set of brake pads. Silly little things, but they matter to me. Christ, I even do a walkround to make sure the lights work every time it comes out of the garage – how sad is that?

The point is, the challenge of man over machine might have lost its novelty, but I still enjoy it and get just as much satisfaction from doing it well as I did on day one. I accept we’re all different, and I can only speak for myself, but I know I feel the same way about flying.

I’m genuinely grateful for all the advice and the caveats; it’s all valuable information. However, despite all the downsides, in my head and my heart I know where I want to be, and I know exactly why I want to be there. And it aint on a station platform.

[timzsta]

My Dad has just decided to retire early. Why - had enough of the management. He can afford to and he has had his lot. "I want to sail my boat, go fishing, and walk the dog" he says. My brother despises the commute to work in London everyday. My mates from my time in the Navy say things continue to go down the pan with more cutbacks on the way. My eldest cousin works in the civil service sector - hates it but it pays his bills with enough to spare to fund his hobbies. I know not one person who is happy with their lot employment wise, and that includes my friends who fly for a number of airlines.

But I will make it to the flightdeck of a commercial aircraft one day. Whatever I have to do I will do it. Why?

1) I love flying. Flying a C152 from Southend to Le Touquet at the weekend is a long way from the world of the 737s. But flying is flying and its a bug and it has bit me hard.
2) Yes flying as a career will get monotonous at some stage. Most jobs do if done for any length of time. But I would rather have the highlight of my day being the view of the alps, or simply climbing out of the winters clound into clear skies, and not leaving the office at the end of the day to face another hellish commute home.
3) Finally I am a professional. For the very large part, that is the way of us pilots, be it PPL's of 747 pilots. Up there in the sky away from the beancounters and incompetents we are in our element, at home at ease and amongst professionals.

The last time BA got in contact with me it was to tell me my application to the Cadet Scheme had been terminated due to 9/11. Yesterday they e-mailed to say the DEP scheme was beginning once more. I am not going to walk into a job in BA tomorrow by any stretch of the imagination, but it the most positive news for us wannabees for a very long time.

Never let anyone or anything stand in the way of your dreams. For the greater the challenge and the more the hurdles the greater man you will be on realising the dream.

(edited because a post like this is hard to get just how you want it first time...)

[Snigs]

Rob,

Point well made and well taken, but don’t you agree that it’d be the same whatever your job is. Robots can do the same thing over and over again, humans will inevitably get bored and need a release i.e. a hobby or sport or some other way of scratching the itch!

I’d still play golf or cricket if I was flying for a living, just as I do know. I just believe that the intervening time between that pint in the 19th and the next tee-off will be more enjoyable at the controls of an aircraft than what I’m doing now.

Cheers

Jools

P.S. What are you flying now?

[PPRuNe Towers]

Snigs,

Some of us are just plain flyin' fools. I fly something distressingly expensive with a head up display. Far more importantly I've got a share in an elderly but stunning two seater and I'm working hard at going solo in a glider soon. That's after having flown for 28 years now so I think the wannabees can work out which side of the fence I'm on.

However, along with our mods this reinforces the remit we all have to make sure you get genuine information and views from pros and that there is a genuine counterpoint to the industry.

That's not the airline industry by the way - the training industry. Connections between the two are very slim indeed - we're here to make sure none of you dare use the excuse that you were taken in by the brochures:E :E :E Remember that when you find you've written your first post on Rumours and News regarding the err, 'creative' flight time limitations you're expected to fly to or the total lack of a payrise for years - actually we ought to automate that with a script. Flashing caption and alarm sounding - keen wannabee finally realises 5th morning of the Alps after 3am alarm calls isn't quite what it's cracked up to be :ok: :ok:

We are your only reality check because it is not in anyone else's interests for you to know there is a downside to the job. You don't pay 30 grand or more to get bored in another career. The cost of an integrated course buys an awful lot of toys and holidays over a very long period while you do another job. As long as we've pointed that out clearly our job is done. As long as we consistently provide an experienced and cynical leavening of the marketeers' stock in trade this forum has served its purpose.

Regards to all
Rob

[scroggs]

I think what he means is - we won't bullsh*t you 'cos we've got nothing to sell! :cool:

Good point, Rob - 70K (you Oxford peeps) would buy you a healthy share in a very swish private aeroplane while you go and earn the squids in IT, or the City or wherever to pay for flying for FUN! Unfortunately (from the point of view of this scenario), my training was free - though it did involve compulsory attendance at a few wars. So I'm still working towards having the 70k in the first place.

Fortunately, the huge pay deal we recently received here at Pprune (500% increase for Mods) will help. ;)

Scroggs

[Snigs]

Cooooor, a HUD, some guys have all the luck!! I bet that beats plodding the streets of Liverpool ;)

We are your only reality check because it is not in anyone else's interests for you to know there is a downside to the job. When I started PPRuNe-ing back in '98 it was this very advice from the people from the inside that I found most valuable, which is why I made the decisions that I did about my training and plans for my future. Because of this I have no regrets about my course of action (unfortunately some religious fanatics have made things a little more difficult though!). It's nice to see that the advice is still being given, unfortunately it's not heeded as well as it might be!

[tom24]

my training was free

Scroggs, from where you are now in your Airbus/Boeing, if you didn't get your training paid for you, would you still be prepared to go back and splash out £50-£70k on licences for your current lifestyle??

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Well - as said, the recent 500% PPRuNe Mod payrise has made a substantial difference to all our lifestyles here at PPRuNe HQ...

I spent the first half of my 20's in Uni/deskjob wanting to be a pilot. I spent the second half of my 20's being a pilot.

As I approach my 30th birthday I am able to look back and say quite honestly that the latter years were better than the former. Not that I didn't enjoy either.

Its just, if you KNOW you have to do something, then do it. Elsewise you'll become bitter about not trying and nagged by What Ifs. It will be a risk and a gamble - I was luck at 25 I had no responsibilites and therefore could treat it as a big adventure. I have the uptmost respect for the 30yr old with mortgage and 2 kids who decides to career change.

For the last 3 yearsish I have been saying don't bother trying - the industry has been brutal to Wannabes in this time. Now things ARE changing. Its time to enter the fray.

I love the job. I hate the fact I am working all this bank holiday weekend, that I have gone to bed after Eastenders all this week, that I have to worry about an annual line check v soon, that I can't go to a mates stage debut tomorrow night as I'm somewhere between here and Alicante.

But I wouldn't do anything else because its a real job - moving x100 people from A to B. Because there is very little management bull****e, because there are no meetings no workshops and no politics. You only work with professionals, you get paid OK and every day there is something a little different and you learn something new. You are sometimes a little scared at work instead of always bored. You sometimes see something or do something fairly unusual.

It beats a lot of jobs hands down. It by no means beats them all. I - like most pilots - think a short lucrative career in the City followed by flying some light aircraft for fun would be preferable.

But hey - life is not a dress rehersal nor is it a competition.

Good luck, yes - on balance - it IS worth it (still).

Cheers

WWW

[scroggs]

Scroggs, from where you are now in your Airbus/Boeing, if you didn't get your training paid for you, would you still be prepared to go back and splash out £50-£70k on licences for your current lifestyle??

No, I wouldn't. I never had any intention of being an airline pilot; I wanted to be a military pilot - and, if I had my life again, that's where I'd go now. It was only later events in life that persuaded me, after 22 years in the RAF, that using the skills I'd gained (through wars and peace) to obtain a position in the airline world would be a sensible thing to do.

If I didn't have a family that will need financial support until I'm around 65, I would have stayed in the military - and continued to really enjoy my flying!

Scroggs

[Straightandlevel80kt]

I haven't read all eight pages of this thread, and you can call me naive, but for those of us who use Pprune openly and honestly to help our fellow aviators and wannabes, the potential that this is all a hoax to sway opinion for politics or entertainment really undermines the positives of Pprune. I don't know how you resolve it, but the feeling it leaves me with is that I want to get back to the good old days when I ignored the site completely and trusted no-one!

Think I might get back to the ATC boards where everything is perfect!

:*

[deathcruzer]

Ye gods ..........here we are professional guys with quite a number of years of experience in this business and still people don't believe what we are telling them. Well of course that is your right I guess. Incidently hanging about in traffic jams is not confined just to desk bound workers. It takes me one and half hours motorway driving each day to get to the airport. Can't keep moving house each time I am allocated a new base. It appears the company I work for doesn't feel it necessary to even pay reasonable re-location costs. I won't mention what they offer here as you wouldn't believe it. But I see the rose-coloured spectacles are still very much in evidence. This isn't a wind-up guys this is the real world.:*

[scroggs]

Straightandlevel80kts wrote:

I haven't read all eight pages of this thread, and you can call me naive, but for those of us who use Pprune openly and honestly to help our fellow aviators and wannabes, the potential that this is all a hoax to sway opinion for politics or entertainment really undermines the positives of Pprune. I don't know how you resolve it, but the feeling it leaves me with is that I want to get back to the good old days when I ignored the site completely and trusted no-one!

What planet are you on? 'A hoax to sway opinion for politics or entertainment'? Do you really think that people like Rob, WWW and I (not to mention deathcruzer) would waste our time posting here to give you guys a heads up on the real for entertainment? Whose, exactly?

If you want sweetness and light, and nice stories to send you to sleep at night with your Air2000 teddy bear, stick to the FTO's or the airlines' websites. If you want the truth, you'll only get it here. Now go back and read all eight (six on my computer) pages of this thread, and don't make any further comment until you have.

Scroggs

[GCA104]

I think most of us (wannabes) are so sure of what they know about the aeronautical world that just don't even consider to be wrong .

I whant to really thank Rob, WWW, scroggs and deathcruzer for spending their time trying to open our eyes .

pls keep posting !!

[ChocksAwayUK]

Deathcruzer.. just coz it doesn't suit you , doesn't mean it doesn't suit anyone.

Thanks for your insight, but i don't think (most) people are ignoring the wise words that you and others are providing.


And if peeps don't believe you...?... then there is no help for them...

[airbornenz]

Wow, it took me a while to get through all the reactions in this thread and I have to say I didn't get out of it what I hoped I would. It felt like I was experiencing a tug-of-war between wannabees and those who have experience.

I am a wannabe, turning 39 this year and just finished my CPL and CMEIR in New Zealand. After having been in a succesfull career for a long time making good money I decided if I wanted to do this I need to do it now. It has been a dream for a long time and I have thought about it for a long time (too long). Many people have told me they respect me for doing it and that they would love to something similar but don't have the guts but I know they secretly thought I was absolutely crazy.
Well now my bank account looks a lot unhealthier than it did 18 months back and my partner has followed me to NZ and is not happy here so we are going to leave preferably to a place where there might be better prospects for a flying career. Her feelings about the future are pretty much the same as mine: very very very very unsure but we are both commited to make this (and our relationship) work. I guess I'll try and get a job in my old profession to get the financial situation back on track and in the meantime look around for a flying job to get those hours up to a level at which my chances of getting a reasonable job are realistic.

Yep, it's all true. It has been hard work, frustrating, demoralizing, finacially draining, relationship destructing, depressing and the future seems bleak.........but I am glad I did it!! I will never have to look back and wish I had and I will always be able to fly and I love to do that, even if it will only be as a hobby.

Nope, I DO NOT romanticise being a pilot. I think it will appeal to me (no I don't know for sure because I haven't had the chance to be one yet) simply because I love flying. Sure, I know every job has it's ups and downs and everything can become a rut if you let it. I think you have to look at the total package (money, future career, fringe benefits etc.) and try to work out if it is what you want and if it can keep you satisfied without blinding yourself by one or two aspects like money or status.

Now to get to the point I realy wanted to make.
I think I am a little dissapointed that after reading the whole tread I am not much wiser. I started reading this thread in the hope I would find some information on how to proceed. After all you are giving information about reasons for "doing or not doing". I have read reasons for "not doing" but not many reasons for "doing" and if you decide "to do" what is the best way to go about it.

It seems there is a lot of experience out there. I understand that the guys from the start were in a similar situation to me and I would realy love to learn from their experiences.
Maybe this is the wrong thread for my trail of thought, I'm not sure. And please don't shoot me for making mistakes in English because it's not my first language.

I think this site is a fantastic idea and I hope people will continue to share their insights in the industry and their experience.

[Jinkster]

After reading the posts. Dont believe half of what you hear!

This is my advice I am taking from an experienced base captain!

[Half a Mexican]

Jinkster,

Exactly which half are you refering to?

--
HaM

[Jinkster]

Exactly which half are you refering to?

Apologies, in my opinion I think that - people are entitled to their own views but it wouldnt take much to say I am a Concorde captain or even the MD of Piper or'jack' the lad!!

When reading this I think you need to weigh up the facts - what do you hear - reading this thread it would easily put many people off! which could be the point of writing.

Hmmm......make up your own minds!

[scroggs]

It is not our intention to put people off, but it is our intention to make people think carefully about what it is they are trying to get into.

The fact is that just because an airliner is bigger and faster than a PA28 it does not make the flying experience better. Modern airliners are simply an expensive office that happens to be airborne; flying them is a management and monitoring task, not a manual skill. Like all areas of commerciality, the jobs of those involved in airlines are continually pressured by financial realities, and it is these things which detract from what you might imagine to be the 'pleasure' of flying at this level.

As jobs go, this is a good one. But the reality is quite a way from the hopes expressed by many wannabes, and many of you still don't understand that it's not the aeroplane that makes an employer worthwhile; it's the lifestyle the employer offers.

As for you, Jinkster, if you're trying to imply that Pprune Towers, WWW, and Scroggs are not experienced professional pilots, you are quite wrong. WWW's and my histories are available here on Pprune Wannabes if you search; PPrune Towers is one of the original founders of this site. I have no reason to believe that Deathcruzer isn't what he claims to be; the experiences he posts about are very recognisable to me, although my employer is somewhat more agreeable than his!

To all of you; read this topic thoroughly. It will arm you for the realities to come. If it does discourage you, then think carefully whether airline flying is the correct direction for you to follow. If you read this, understand it and still feel that airline flying is for you, good - we've done our job, and you won't be disillusioned when you finally get in your B737 or A320. You'll be able to enjoy the good bits while not being surprised by the tedious trivia - which, it must be said, afflict almost every profession.

Scroggs

[Jinkster]

Scroggs, I didnt actually refer to anyone by name - I
was just stating the fact it would be easy to make things up.

Obviously there are genuine people around - such as yourself and others mentioned!


I was just writing a cautionary post! No harm taken - hopefully

Jinkster

[PPRuNe Towers]

Jinx,

Next time you're chatting to your favourite Base Captain ask him or her for a totally honest opinion on the knowledge of wannabees regarding the realities of the job and their comments on the main forums. The ones along the lines of, 'I'll fly for free,' or 'so what if they've chopped your terms and conditions - there's a queue of us waiting to take your jobs so stop your moaning and get on with it.'

Come to think of it, why don't you all ask your wonderful airline contacts why they can't be arsed to come here and spend time with you?

Do you think paragraph one and paragraph two could in some way be connected??

I was a little suprised by the post from Jinks, registered a long time and a huge number of posts yet somehow we almost seem strangers to him. I realised then that a huge proportion of his time is spent on Jetblast. Have you noticed that it is another forum essentially ignored by the pro pilots?? The vast majority of its regulars and 'characters' seem to love being associated with professional aviation but have no actual connection with or genuine knowledge of it at all.

Without Scroggs, the Welshman and the additional occassional visitors thumping you with the truth this place would be the same cliquey, up it's own arse, fantasy world wallowing in its own spiral of misconceptions, half truths and wish fulfillment. On the FTO and Lasors side of things we're especially indebted to the concise, factual slaps in the faces from folks like BillieBob and a few others who will never let dodgy marketing or claims go unanswered. They are protecting your money - you have free will and can still go ahead but as I said the other day wannabees don't have the excuse of not knowing any more.

If a thread like this seems a bit of an unpleasant ice water shock you simply aren't getting around the site enough. Is there really anything in it that doesn't relect an average single day of comments on the Rumours and News or Terms and Endearments forums?? Here's one today from a well respected regular:

I wish all those who want to join BA well. It’s not the company it used to be though. The work is getting harder and harder, and a relatively sizeable proportion of your duty time is spent faffing about, not flying aeroplanes.

Against that background we have a management that is determined to destroy the professional status of flight crew, and treat you like fork lift operators. We are in all likelihood about to go through a bloody and acrimonious dispute on the lines of Cathay Pacific – The Empire Strikes Back.

By all means be enthusiastic to join the World’s favourite, but please come in with your eyes open. You’ll need to think about your own circumstances, and whether you can afford to make your own independent pension provision. There is a very real chance that BA pilots will be on a par with Aviva bus drivers by the time they’ve finished with us.


I'd suggest that if you want warm, fuzzy and fawning while shelling out tens of thousands of pounds go buy a rug at Harrods. We'll continue to tell it how it is.

Flying a jet is great but, as Scroggs brilliantly points out, which one is a hundred times less important than the company, it's attitude towards you, and the quality of life you get. Outstations versus main bases are probably the most important issues in short haul/low cost quality of life - never been mentioned here but absolutely vital. Also, I've don't ever remember any discussion of these forums regarding Sops. Your dream aircraft remains precisely that if your company insists on you having the autopilot permanently on while your mate flying a supposedly much less sexy beast is with a company that really lets you fly.

So, if you do meet airline people who've been flying for several years please ignore the obvious questions and ask them who and where the happiest pro pilots are that they know. That's groups of pilots not one cheerful individual. Knowledge like that is gold dust when you are targeting applications.

Thoughtfully yours.
Rob Lloyd

[Jinkster]

Ah ok errm. Sorry got the wrong end of the stick - I am 21 and was just really a little :mad: off about reading 'is it all worth it' having spent a huge some of money but hey ho! 'cant take a joke shouldn't have joined'

:rolleyes:

[redsnail]

I got a call from a former colleague this morning. She used to fly Sheds at night carting freight every where too. She thought she'd got a really good job flying CRJ's. She and every one has been made redundant at that company Duo.. Her quote "it really is a ****ty industry isn't it?"
I hope I am wrong but unless you have 737/A319 time you have to go onto easyJet's TRSS programme at £23K. You might think, fair enough. However, when you have several thousand hours turboprop and the like or even CRJ/EMB time etc it is just plain rude to be treated as a raw newbie. Even the military guys have to do it. (If you want to work for easyJet. Ryanair are similar. bmi regional are charging for their EMB rating too. How long before the rest of them join with self sponsored ratings?)

[maxy101]

I´m one of those at the World´s Favourite, sitting on the -400, which IMHO is the only place to be in Big. Bearing in mind I´ve ticked the box and "scratched my aviation itch", if I was made redundant or lost my licence tomorrow, I wouldn´t waste my time searching for another flying job, but would get straight back to Uni and do a 1 yr MBA course and join my stinking rich mates doing interesting stuff in the City. The way I see it , only a senior pilot in Big on L/H or a similarly placed guy in Virgin probably has the kind of lifestyle a 15yr + professional in the U.K can expect .

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I will say. Just over 3 years in now - the novelty has worn off. You damn well earn your money, and then some.

The unsocial hours, the pressure, the niff naff and paperwork, the rude - my god you wouldn't believe the rudeness - passengers, the boring bits, the crap food/air/seat/radiation/hotel, the incompetence of management (how to ground a fleet in one easy step ;) ).

Total pain in the £rse.

Not commuting in the rush hour, the direct responsibility, the broad picture, the grateful interested passengers, the fun bits, the banter/view/hotel bar, the pleasure of working with professionals.

Fantastic.

Swings and roundabouts.


It strikes me that these days nobody has a good word to say about their profession/working life.

The job of airline pilots has certainly gone way down in the last 20yrs. But then I think everybody says they same in comparable jobs.

I think an awful lot of airline pilots would prefer to be running their own company, doing something in the City for a ton of cash or just check out of stressville and run the best Lobster bar on the beach.

I suspect this may be because to become an airline pilot you generally have to have set, at some time, some pretty lofty goals for yourself. You therefore define yourself as being ambitious, confident of success and hard working.

This being the case the - own company/City/Lobster bar - were all actually attainable options if only we'd picked them. Hence Pilots tend to have slightly lower expressed satisfaction levels than other professions (they've been moaning about declining conditions since the Spitfires were retired, dammit!).

Don't be afraid to go for it. The jobs are there over the coming decades. They can never take the view away and at the end of the day - unionisation will always mean that we will earn a livable wage if nothing more.

Cheers

WWW

ps People seeking to invest or operate the Wakiki Beach Lobster Shack Corporation should send details to Weasley Towers,...

[High Wing Drifter]

doing something in the City for a ton of cash or just check out of stressville and run the best Lobster bar on the beach.
The streets arn't really paved with gold in London Town. Its a myth :) Looking at PPJN, from Jet S/O to Captain, chances are you will be earning stacks more than any other job that could realistically expect to get with comparable experience.

[PPRuNe Towers]

How about a plasterer in the South East then?

Rob:} :}

[High Wing Drifter]

I think you're onto something there. The local college is now fully booked as everyone wants to be a plumber these days :uhoh:

[Maximum]

I do really enjoy what I do and I still have enough enthusiasm left over to instruct during the weekends which I normally have off! .....erm, no antagonism intended but how the heck do you get most weekends off? This just isn't typical of the industry, frills or no frills. Someone has to crew those weekend flights!! Please tell us more about this fantastic company you work for...............

[hifive11]

Should this be a sticky?

Hi5

[Maximum]

;)I would not say the company is fantastic... there probably isn't one that is! However most weekends are off since we don't do much flying during Saturday and Sunday.

Anyway, no offence intended to Mr R Sole, and very nice it must be for him too, but just to re-state to all wanabees that this is certainly not the norm if you intend to fly a jet for all the airlines I know. And generally it's got nothing to do with frills or not.

Expect to work many weekends. ;)

[High Wing Drifter]

Personally, if it wasn't for the fact that the kids are at school I would prefer to work weekends! Enjoy the odd day off whilst the hoy-paloy are locked up in their offices :)

[Pole Hill]

Got to agree with you there High Wing Drifter. Thats a reason why the unsociable hours aspect of the job actually appeals to me, though equally I know there are disadvantages to the unsociable hours.:)

[PPRuNe Towers]

One for the mods to think about and pull the old PPRuNe balancing act we pay them so much for:uhoh:

AGAINST: All mods have guidance from on high requesting minimal use of stickies to maintain readability and flow to the forum.

FOR: The need to have the downside available for a constant wave of people arriving here for the first time. A counter if you like to the marketing and enthusiasm that abounds in flight training while the experience of those actually doing the job for real is never aired other that here on PPRuNe. Prime example: the 'pilots' wheeled out to talk at schools and conferences are not really line pilots anymore otherwise they simply wouldn't be there to talk to you. There was something about flying the line that didn't satisfy them and they have sought positions such as in recruitment that actually get them out of an aeroplane for significant periods.

This may come as a terrible shock to some of you but airline pilots don't wake up one morning and find that rather than the 0600 flight on our roster we have to go and talk to wannabees and students. These people don't do 0600's anymore. Their career advancement now lies entirely outside flying a turbo prop or jet and therefore have an entirely different outlook and agenda to the one you assume.

Next. Flight training and airines are entirely different and unconnected industries. In theory if one hurts the other should in pretty short order. This hasn't happened as many of you qualified and patiently waiting have found.

I think that this thread would just have to be perpetually repeated like the "Am I too old," ones cropping up ad nauseam. For the first time in living memory the there has been a severe aviation downturn without the rest of the economy heading south other than in a few specialised areas like IT.

The flow of wannabees never stopped, in fact it's actually been a torrent because of the rest of the economic factors. Lowest interest rates in 50 years so money is cheap, house prices on another planet meaning you or your parents have undreamt of equity to borrow off. A finance sector fighting to win the award for most debt sold to the public - you can fill in the rest of the picture yourself.

We've turned into Australia and New Zealand practically overnight. Massive oversupply of fresh pilots to keep the schools running very nicely thank you. Massive debt incurred but no GA to go to other than instructing and further adding to the desperate cycle - finding more fresh meat. Meanwhile the mantra of shareholder value has produced an airline business ethos where personal advancement is dependent on cutting every possible aspect of pilots terms and conditions. Professional pilots simply cannot believe you considering paying above and beyond what you've already expended on licences to join them.

This thread won't ever stop anyone who can't bear the thought of life without flying. It will however make you consider, at least for a while, what you're letting yourself in for. Go to Rotorheads and have a look at this month's calendar to see someone whose aviating, fixed wing as much as helo, leaves us pro's gasping with envy. It's something folks who are bright and determined must think about.

Many reading this thread will have been instinctively offended by any criticism of the perfection of flight as a career but using this forum alone is something no pilots could recommend. Read elsewhere on this site. With an enlarged EU and even the Ryanair law of omerta getting very shaky there are other ways of gaining significant flying experience and enjoyment. Avoiding the queues at Ikea over the weekend just isn't a good enough reason for going into 50 grand's worth of debt. :ugh:

[ChocksAwayUK]

I'll just third that. Not having your life structured around weekends has always been a selling point to me... in fact a lot of what many seem to perceive as the negatives are.

No doubt I'll eat my words following years of 6 sector days at 6 day stretches etc.

[High Wing Drifter]

Rob,

Personally, I think this thread is a little too subjective to be a sticky. If I were a mod, a sticky would be factual or a notice.

Better would be an idiots guide to the career as a sticky. Something that states in more clinical terms what typical terms and conditions are for the various roles (long, short, charter, taxi, etc). That has not, as far as I know, been succinctly and thoroughly covered.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Tend to agree with you HWG - the mods know how we feel about stickies. Could do with storing away the url for an appearance when everyone gets a bit to light headed though ;) :uhoh:

Essence is that folks know a little about the reality, adopt the practice of reading other parts of the site and then we've done our job.

Rob

[scroggs]

I think if we were to make this a sticky we'd have to filter out a lot of the 'noise' which, paradoxically, is what keeps people coming back to the topic. Like the current 'A question for the Professionals' sticky thread, it would stagnate and effectively become invisible.

What I think I might do, if I get some time over the next week or two, is create a sticky post with links to the most repeated topics, including this one. If I could make it compulsory for all Wannabes to read all the linked threads, I would!

Scroggs

[PPRuNe Towers]

"Please read before making your first post"

or "Please read this forum for 14 days before making your first post."

Rob

[scroggs]

:p

Scroggs

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Stickies drive me up the wall - but a sticky containing useful thread links would be great. We could add to it over time like we did with the Wannabes Archive. Top idea.

Anyway, lets stop having a management meeting in public. :)

Cheers

WWW

[Desk-pilot]

I left a £45000 a year job in IT last year aged 34 to train as a commercial pilot. It's all I ever wanted to do, my Father was BEA/BA Cabin Crew, my Mother worked for BOAC and both my wife and I worked for BA. I had a good career and I had some enjoyable times working but I was increasingly aware that I wasn't following my passion in life. I've spent 30 years looking up at aircraft wishing I was flying them and getting goose bumps from the threshold of 27L in my lunch hour as they roared over my head. I'm now 2/3 of the way through my ATPL course and am thoroughly enjoying my flying (and am fed up with groundschool!)

The decline in pilot lifestyles is unfortunately echoed across most other professions as other posters have pointed out and is a worrying trend. I barely know anyone who enjoys work anymore, most friends and colleagues hate it - and most of them are educated professionals. I'm grateful to the airline pilots who have posted their fascinating insights here and can only hope I am one of those who always loves flying.

For anyone contemplating following this path I can confirm that making the break from a secure 9-6 style existence has been hard. Coming home after 6 hrs in the classroom and having to study for another couple of hours is a chore and lets face it JAR manuals aren't interesting even if you love aeroplanes! The exams were difficult due to the volume of material and you really have to work to get good grades - it's certainly harder than my Degree (Business Studies). You can forget social life for a year! Financially I reckon I am down in excess of £100 000 in terms of course fees and lost earnings and there is a lot of stress associated with not earning any money and getting a job. In short this isn't something to be undertaken lightly. On the other hand I have loved all the flying and have had some amazing experiences up there already. I'm proud to have got this far thanks in no small measure to the support of my wife.

I would definately do it again. It's wonderful never to have to wonder 'what if?' There's so much more to life than money that those City types will never know because they'll still be in the office. With luck I will spend the next 20 years flying airliners, taking people where they want to go, meeting some great people downroute, seeing the world and flying heavy metal with the best office view in the world. Someday, perhaps twenty years from now I hope I will occasionally watch a beautiful sunrise from 40 000 feet and still think how lucky I am.

Maybe having done other things beforehand will help me to appreciate being a pilot more than if I'd gone straight into it. I guess if you've never done anything else it would be hard to understand how miserable the corporate grind can be.

My Father did about twenty different jobs in his life, but the only one he was ever able to stick for longer than about 2 years was airline crew (23 years!) He retired in 1987 and he still misses it. Perhaps that says it all really.

Clear Skies to all,

Desk-Pilot

[deathcruzer]

Well that’s more Airlines down…so that will be more Pilots looking for a Job. And as this is very much an Industry that works on supply and demand….Some of these guys are going to be unemployed for some time.
Strangely enough it’s never the fault of the staff, but usually some bean counter or group of directors that drive these companies on the rocks….
The Lo-cost idea although bringing cheap fares (and lousy service) to people, is as much to blame for this instability…….Since all airlines are cutting costs (usually in the staff department first…although the directors always seem to get their million pound bonuses!!!!!!:*.) eventually they all end up cutting each others throats. Don’t get me wrong…I’m sure this is prevalent in all business, today….Its just that, in aviation, a pilot, must stay current. The longer he is unemployed the harder It Is for him to get re- employed.
So all you guys who think the airlines are such a great idea……..There are only a small percentage of guys in the good jobs now……The rest bounce from job to job. There are better ways to enjoy your flying.

[deathcruzer]

There’s some interesting views along the lines of this thread in some of the other forums....Looks like more are getting fed up and are now saying something. We need single Union representation to level the pay and conditions throughout this industry...or it’s just going to continue to get worse....We all really need to lobby BALPA along these lines, irrespective of who you work for…(like it or not it has to be the strongest union )

[wingbar]

Deathcruzer, you have upset me twice now with this thread appearing, I am a 21 year old trainee just about to complete my final 14th exam and due to start CPL shortly after.
I find that you have some valid points about flying, however others on this thread ( and I don't think I am alone here) do not appreciate your cast iron view that all in aviation is crap, bad, not worth while in me, my parents, family, friends, investing their time, money and effort into.
I have no doubt that flying has changed since the days of smokey old Trident's and VC-10's, but it's not completetly gone to the dogs.
I have mates doing law and Medicine who are very interested by my flying pursuits, I wonder if their Consultant's and Law professors openly say on forums how bad things are and not to bother, do something else.
I appreciate the aviation world isn't perfect, but neither is modern day society, people in general have very little respect for anything these days, sad to say (yes most are of my generation.)
BUT it's not what others think, it's what I hold to be dear to me and have done for years that counts, - YOU should be promoting the profession of Airline Pilot, not slagging it off.
"If they knew how much fun it is, they wouldn't pay us a penny." Said a certain 737 Capt with nearly 35 years up there, I wonder if he shares your down beat centiment............

[redsnail]

Flying is great fun, I can't think of a better way to pass the time and still be clothed.. however, the industry sucks.

wingbar, if it all goes well and you get a job soon after leaving flight school and it's on a jet and the company stays solvent then you're laughing. Life will be great.
If your career doesn't follow the above, if reading about the industry upsets you, wait till you're in it.
I showed your post to Checkboard, he said "good on you, you want to be in this industry because you love aviation, not because you think it is an easy path to riches." :)

[deathcruzer]

Wing bar I’m not trying to upset anyone…..Just open up the realities of what its like out there .Flying is the greatest thing a human can do ….but over the years the industry has become trash. I recently flew with a new F/O not got his ATPL unfrozen yet, today he regrets the day he started off. He doesn’t see it getting any better either…he was, as I was, massively enthusiastic about the whole industry,.... when he started…..But after 12 months of 5-6 day weeks, 4 sector days, nights followed by days by nights etc….Its lost its shine. As I say that’s after 12 months.
I will be sure to keep my kids away from this. Private flying is the way to go.:sad:

[Jinkster]

Deathcruzer,

As you say over the years - do you mean since Sept 11th? During the pilot shortage days what was it like?

Do you suggest people should work in an office? No thanks - some people might like it but I dont and cant wait to start flying for a living whether it be 6 day weeks or not, I know the other careers I could be doing and no thanks - flying is my game!


Jinkster

[carbonfibre]

Well,

abused in flying, long hours and the like.

I would give up my job which sounds exactly the same working in a factory for that anyday.

Nothing comes easy and if your gonna spend all that time effort and money, be prepared for it.

Deathcruzer i agree with you, when i took my IRT at Bournemouth, the examiner was chatting to me and asked what i would like to do, I said regional but if it never happens i will use the IR and put some fun back into my flying

Good luck everyone:ok: :cool:

[Icerman]

Thank you for the great stories and advises you have given. However now as we know how horrible flying for the airlines can be ;) it would be great to hear similar stories from the other walks of aviation and flying. So if there are any rotorheads, corporate, bush, etc. pilot please step forward and share us your experiences.

Cheers!

Another wannabe who never wanted to fly for the airlines in the first place... :ouch:

[redsnail]

I started life as a bush pilot working in the Kimberley in Australia. Then spent a couple of years peering out the window flying Coastwatch missions. Is that what you're interested in hearing about?

[precisionapr]

Dear all

I have been an airline pilot for 14 years, worked for large carriers and small, a veried career. Yes an airline career today is not as it used to be, economically it cannot be, the hours can be long and tiring, the automation, regulations, sops, medicals, sim checks etc, can make the whole job dam right tedious at times. But take a couple of weeks off and what do I want to do ? get in the plane and fly again.
Having said all the above, please really really look at your finances, your training establishment ( airlines do take note as to where you did your initial training, quite seriously ), no matter what is going on in your personal life, just concentrate on your training ( good result count ), do the class one medical first ( common sense, if you don’t pass this, the above is irrelevant ), overall if you take the step into aviation prepare for a hard slog, but never give up, keep in mind as to what made you make this crazy ambition into reality.

Good luck to you all, and to those that make it enjoy

[landrik1]

Hey, i know this would happen , i'm currently working through my PPl, and i know there will be hell time. but just to remind you that in life you will always have bad times and remember son, perseverence( no quite sure about spelling, but whatever..) is the only key for success said my grand father

don't worry about relocation. i get to go to work in another town just to earn more money to pay my flying lessons. cos when i'm out ther in the sky i feel that where i belong. i'd pay sky and earth to stay there.

Think again where you were, before having your very introductory first lesson.

from now take care.:)

[imac67]

hey danny and the boyz i know you get sick of the age q,s but how old was you when got into the hot seat? just a point i think i picked up from the Doc,s ramblings (wint3rmute)and in his defence,he just hates his own job and as i see it would rather jump out of the NHS and into the RHS

[scroggs]

I think Danny and Rob were 37 or thereabouts. I was 21 when I joined the RAF, but 42 when I joined the airlines. WWW was early 20s when he started with Go, I think - mine and WWW's potted histories are available in the 'Read this...' sticky thread at the top of the forum.

Scroggs

[matthewgillespie]

:) Hello Everyone. I'm another person who seeks to become an airline pilot. However, i did not see any harm in asking all the pilots out there for their views. As you can imagine i am very excited at the prospect of being a pilot but i would like to take this opportunity for all pilots to tell me the things that are not so rosy about the job, and things that i should be aware of. Tell me things that are not part of the 'dream' of becoming and airline pilot?

Thanks.

[topcat450]

The early starts.

[theschultx]

The paperwork

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Spanish ATC

[Jumbo Jimbo]

Hiya,

I was wondering if you would take a little time out to consider the question of, if given the option, would you begin a career in the aviation industry as it is today?

I (possibly!) have the option of following in my father's footsteps and training as a pilot... something which brings the response "It's not what it used to be, son... I wouldn't do it myself..." from him. Saying that - the last thing I can do is sit in an office for the next 40 years. I need diversity and constant mental challenges or boredom / disinterest sets in.

Is it all that bad? Let me know if you would consider the £60k-odd investment worthwhile...

Thanks.

[Fly Better!]

Depends what your options are, You could earn more working as a plumber, or in fact most trades will pay as well if not better up to a point. If you want normal working hours and a social life then dont go for flying.

However if you want to fly then do it. I enjoy flying which is why I do it, although in the middle of winter driving to work at 4am I sometimes wonder if its worth it.

[Rainboe]

Brutally, it boils down to: have you got the flying bug or not? If not, find something else. Banking is good.

Would I do it again? Like a shot. I've loved it. I've seen the world, flown all types from a turboprop to a 747-400, retired, and doing it again, until they call security to carry me off the aeroplane feet first kicking and screaming. But don't expect to find it a goldmine. And the responsibilities you carry could keep you awake at night if you let them.

[Potential]

I've seriously been considering a career as a pilot for some time now and I’m fairly certain that it is what I want to do so I have applied to a number of FTOs. Having read through many threads in pprune and other information sources, some questions still remain to be answered and I would appreciate it if an experienced pilot could take the time to answer them.

Firstly given that there is so much automation on modern airlines, what is working on a flight deck really like? What I fear most is that after a few years of flying, the initial excitement and attraction declines and, apart from take-off and landing, the flight deck becomes a very boring workplace. How much work is actually required during the flight and, if the answer is very little, then what else can the pilots do to keep themselves occupied?

I also wondered about what interaction there is between the pilots and the flight crew. Also what about developing working relationships between colleagues given the fact that (as far as I'm aware) you are never part of a fixed team of people

[Chesty Morgan]

Keep an eye on:
Where you are
Where you're going
The weather
Where you have to go should it become very quiet all of a sudden
How much fuel you've got
How quickly you're using it
How much fuel you need
How much fuel you might need should 'anything' happen
How much fuel you want to take on the next sector
The weather
How all the systems are performing
How the crew are performing, including yourself
What other aeroplanes are doing, should be doing and aren't doing
Speaking to ATC
ATC speaking to you
Speaking to OPS
Dealing with passengers
The weather
Dealing with technical problems
Dealing with technical problems you've NEVER even seen or heard of before
The weather
What IF?
What IF?
What IF?
Etc..
Etc..
Etc..
Do all that and more and you'll be glad of the automation. And you probably wont get bored. Failing that try this (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=257904&highlight=long+haul)

You don't really need a working relationship with your colleagues, although you will develop one in time, thanks to SOP's and CRM.

[Kit d'Rection KG]

I very definitely wouldn't, and I routinely advise 'wannabees' against it...

[Rainboe]

and do you feel you may be turning off some people who, just maybe, would have enjoyed it as much as people like me? And I know there are many others like me who would do it again, so why not let them decide if it is their calling rather than just try and turn everybody off because you haven't enjoyed it or your career has been ****e?

[londonmet]

Fly Better!

Give me a break son.

"You could earn more working as a plumber, or in fact most trades will pay as well if not better up to a point. If you want normal working hours and a social life then dont go for flying."

YOU FLY BECAUSE YOU LIKE FLYING. IF IT'S MONEY YOU'RE INTERESTED IN THEN.....YOU'RE IN THE WRONG JOB.

Rainboe

Kind of right

"Brutally, it boils down to: have you got the flying bug or not? If not, find something else."

"Banking is good" - so very wrong -> longer hours (much longer hours infact).

To all cynical people. . . . oh where's the door?

[Jumbo Jimbo]

I think what I'm trying to establish is what life is like on a daily basis for a pilot. One of the things I have enjoyed most over the past few years is travelling round the world and seeing new things / meeting new people, which is something I would love to incorporate into a career if at all possible.

But then has it / is it all going the way of minimum rest before the return sector with no opportunity to do anything but study the insides of your eyelids for a while?

Once in the industry, how easy is it to change type within the same company? Do you lose seniority and have to start again from the bottom of the heap?

How often do you feel the need to use this icon in forums; :ugh: ???

Thanks again for your time!

Jimbo.

[Rainboe]

I NEVER do icons, OK? I find them puerile.

You're not on holiday, you're working. Sometimes the length of stay depends more on schedules than anything. You usually find you're moving on more than you want unless the place is rubbish. A longhaul schedule can be quite arduous and tiring, a shorthaul schedule can be arduous and exhausting- both just as tiring in different ways.
Seniority is kept from when you join. Usually you have the choice when your seniority rises to move. Unless you change employer, you do not lose out.
All you require is here in various places. Use the search function and you will learn all about it! That's yer lot from moi.

[OzExpat]

It sounds to me like you're looking for a glamour job. Aviation is like that, but only until the novelty wears off. You really have to WANT to fly to be in the industry - it's always been like that and, I'm sure, always will be.

If you're passionate about being out of an earthbound office, try bus or truck driving. Same crappy hours, same crappy pay and same competition from low-cost operators. I don't mean this to sound glib but to get a reaction from you that demonstrates that you really want to fly.

If you don't REALLY want to fly, this industry will chew you up and spit you out in very short order.

Would I do it all over again? Absolutely yes! But the difference is that I truly LOVE everything to do with flying! If you don't have THAT sort of commitment, heed your dad's advice and look for something else.

[horseshoe]

There seem to be a lot of disgruntled pilots on this site and give off a lot of negativity. No the industry may not be what it used to be, but neither is any industry. All companies seem to want to get what they can from their staff and not pay for their services. A relative used to have a very cushy milk round, did approximately 3-6hrs a day and made a decent living from it, the company decided to go franchise and because he had done nothing else and too frightened to do anything else opted to go for the franchise. Over the years the milkman ‘profession’ has declined, consequently, he is doing long hours, not making the money, never has any time off because he will not earn any money, to me that’s a tough job for little or no reward, there isn’t even any job satisfaction for the little reward! Yes you have early starts, long hours, lates then earlies then back to lates blah blah but I bet a lot of people would rather be a pilot than a milkman so know which side your bread is buttered and think about all the people who admire you for the job you do, at the end of the day no matter what profession you are in we will moan about certain aspects, that is human nature, its easier to look on the negative than the positive.

I have set my heart on becoming a pilot as I now work in an office and know that to spend the rest of my working days filing, photocopying, interviewing, disciplinaries, blah blah (need I go on?) would drive me insane. Any job that is worth doing will always be a difficult and competitive market, there will be the more qualified, the ones who can b***s**t a little bit better but etc… I believe if you work hard enough for something and pursue it long enough and if employers can see that commitment then you will get the break that you deserve eventually.

So, wannabes, discover your dream, if in time you decide that it actually isn’t for you then at least you can say you gave it your best shot. Pilots, thanks for the realism advice we appreciate it but do we really want our dreams trodden on before we have even started, life is about learning and making mistakes- you are a long time dead!

Horseshoe

[npasque]

are you flying for the money??
you don't fly for the pay cheque, you fly for the passion. if you have to relocate, then that is a sacrifice that YOU will have to make in order to continue living the dream. sure if you want to stay put, stay in GA but you will live poor for the rest of your days (some exceptions of course).

welcome to the future, this is the way that things are going. regardless, it is disappointing to hear that you have lost the joy in flying. no matter what the pressures, im sure you still feel SOME satisfaction from sitting in the left/right seat of a jet of some sort. so what if you are only getting paid US$100k, that is still bloody good money.

just be happy that your office has views from 35000 feet and that most other people are sitting in a 4x4m cubicle on a pc.

[scroggs]

npasque who are you replying to? Your post makes no sense unless we can put it in the context of the discussion you think you're having.

However, as a general point, remember that you fly professionally to earn money. The money you earn should be commensurate with your knowledge and experience, and your value within the industry. Professional pilots do not fly for the love of it; they fly to put a roof over their heads, and food on their family's table. The training (which does not finish at a TR) is long, arduous and expensive, the responsibilities are grave, and the consequences of mistakes can be terminal. That is why no professional pilot should undervalue themselves by accepting a pittance in return for their labour.

Scroggs

[dillan1planes]

go for it.

if u have been for a burn with ur dad u have already had a good taste.

good thing about flying is there is so many different types of it i.e bush pilot, ifr, skiplane, military that if u want to change its no biggy

plus i have seen many mates that have pilot dads who have become pilots themselves and have all the hookups for jobs

goodluck

[dartagnan]

n That is why no professional pilot should undervalue themselves by accepting a pittance in return for their labour.

Scroggs

if you have the choice, if not you accept anything...

[PlaneHomerS]

That is why no professional pilot should undervalue themselves by accepting a pittance in return for their labour.

Scroggs

Well said Scroggs :D :ok: ;)

[betterfromabove]

Now this is what PPRUNE is all about.... a little tetchy at times, but always a great read.

If I'm joining in, I'm a natural wannabe whose chose to follow the alternative route of flying for pleasure rather than work. And I'm not sure this perspective has been covered much.

Yes, I'm like everyone else, my head rises every time I start to hear a buzz or a roar overhead, yes I devour the mags & PPRUNE like everyone else, but I came to a conclusion at 16 years old that to try to become an airline pilot outside of going via the military was total insanity.

My opinion has not changed. Nothing necessarily to do with the job even (you guys are the experts on that...), but it's what it takes to get there. Name me another profession that asks such staggering sacrifices with so few gaurantees??

I chose another career... that of a geologist. Maybe it's because the passions are related, the downsides of the job are not dissimilar. And the rewards too. When I get the rare chance to chat with airline pilots, they get it, they know what I'm talking about.

Recently, I've been wondering in every sense what I get out is worth what I put in to my profession. Pilots, commercial or otherwise, ask themselves the same question too about their vocation. I've concluded I still love the buzz I get from my job.... the views that few others see, the nuts & bolts of how things work, the Big Picture, the mystery of new discoveries.... sound familiar?!?

It will pay me back in time for the broken relationships, the 4am departure lounges, the smiling when I don't feel it, the it's-up-to-you moments....(it better....) Again, sound familiar?!?

To fly is a struggle sometimes, but I HAVE to. I don't care what, but it's a drag I've got to have. Every flying machine can be made to be exciting & can provide a never-ever learning curve. In the end, wings touch air & wheels touch ground.

You can fly like a professional in anything & frankly that's what we should all be aiming for & is a subject that distressingly gets rarely discussed on here in amongst all our rants about paperwork & money & flight schools & the bl££dy CAA....

If you ask me, one of the saddest aspects of the current aviation scene is not so much the lack of communication between wannabes & those doing the job they will sell their skin for but more between Professionals & Amateurs. We all love flying & we can all learn something.

This is why we hang out in spaces like this & we can all contribute to.

Getting back to the original thread, the big question is whether you convert passion to vocation into profession. That's three very different things. It's a bit like fling vs relationship vs marriage I guess. All are possible in aviation.

I still like to think of flying as a continual courtship.

BFA

[rance89]

hiya all, Ive been doing alot of resarch on the internet recently, and there seems to be quite alot floating about along the lines of 'being a commercial pilot is a career prospect not worth looking into'. I'd like to know other peoples thoughts of this. I know that being a commercial pilot isn't necessarily what it was say 30 years ago however if I'm honest I can't see myself embarking on any other career. Regards, Jack

[SinBin]

Piffal! It's a professional career!

If it's glamour you're after audition for X factor!!:mad:

[Shay]

Things I love about flying (and to name but a few) include climbing into the LHS on a cold morning, and turning on the engine, and hearing it get warmer.. The musty smell of old cockpits on the wee Pipers I'm used to flying.. The smell of avgas.. Speeding up on the runway to take off.. Pulling the throttle right back and pretending to the passenger that the engine's just failed :E.. Hearing the stall alarm when landing.. Parking on the runway, stretching me legs and thinking about the great flight I've just had.. Flying at night and seeing the wee white dots below and not being a part of that world.. And the list could go on forever.

So back to the original question Do you really want to do this...??

Hell yeah :cool:

[Mohit_C]

One reason why I would like to fly is the actual atmosphere. I just love that sense of freedom and everyone who has travelled once knows what I mean.

[Topcat11]

I understand where everyone is coming from here, life is full of highs and lows, but at the end of the day, follow your heart. If flying is your passion, go for it! You'll adapt to the salaries and lifestyles if your career requirements are fulfilled. I can't imagine what can be more satisfying than a flying job!

I've done 9 yrs in the RAF on radars, followed by as many years in IT, gained my PPL and then tried to follow my life time dream of becoming a professional pilot, unfortunately this week that just passed me by, having had success in 13 of the 14 ATPL exams and failing the last one by a mere 4%! I'm looking at being a PPL lifer unless anyone has any great ideas for me? :bored:

Aviation - it's a passion, not a job, fly the dream and enjoy it! I'd happily swap places with deathcruzer or anyone and fly the planes while you fly my office desk at 0ft. Now, go fly.

[Flaperon75]

errm, topcat, can't you just resit the one exam you failed...?:confused:. Seems a bit harsh to give up on it all because of one failed exam...

[dartagnan]

topcat, if you fail only one . it is good, very good.
some guys fail 4-5-6 exams.
so restudy the feedback questions, and resit the exam.

I would be happy to take your office job, so I can make money!

:ok:

[covec]

I'm earning just over 47K a year in the RAF as rearcrew. I have a job until 55 - and a Final Salary, Index Linked Pension to boot.

But I am deployed for 5 months every 11 to 12 months in an ageing aircraft which has recently been in the news - sadly for the wrong reasons but civvy aircraft have problems too.

Being regularly mortared is a novel experience too - as aircrew!

And I no longer believe that Politicians or Senior Officers act in the interests of their men: "Warfare lad, not welfare!"

However, looking at some of the other threads it seems that the commercial flying world has its fair share of "leadership issues".

I have my CPL ME SPA IR with ATPL credit Perf A Perf E & instruct too. Now on 624 hours TT.

Four things keep me in the military:
1. Pension.
2. The fear that at 46 I am unlikely to even get an interview offer should I jump ship (I would dearly love to fly cargo TPs - genuinely).
3. Recognition that the commercial aviation industry is "economically fraught".
4. Cameraderie.

So why did I fork out circa 30K for a mix of CAA/JAR qualifications - the love of flying. It is a bl**dy drug!!!

What to do, what to do, what to do............:confused:

[kewin kerruish]

So take the rose coloured spectacles off and take a good in- depth look at the Industry before you commit a penny. Or you are likely to become another lamb to the slaughter.


I work as a manager at an abattoir, today we slaughtered 600 lambs.

I am seriously thinking about a change in career, with plans to learn to fly at ormond beach then return to UK and continue a flying career.

I am trying to find out the average salary for pilots to work out if i am better off sticking with the slaughtering, or do i follow my dream and learn to fly?

at present the most i could earn in my role is around 40k - what are the chances in this day and age of earning that much?

But at the end of the day its not just about money, which is better, soaring above the clouds, or walking around a windolwess factory with blood on my boots?

[FirmamentFX]

I have just spent far too long reading this thread from the start :E.

I am just about to embark on my ATPL training (at Bristol GS and ESMA in Montpelier), having spent the last 7 years as a conductor in the musical theatre industry. My previous experience is limited to 20 hours in a DA20 Katana from an RAF flying scholarship, and about 8 or 9 hours in Bulldogs/Chipmunks as part of the CCF.

Arguably, I am going from one undervalued job to another, but having looked long and hard at the pros/cons of a) both leaving a career in an industry in which I am established, and b) starting training for a new one at the (relatively old) age of 26, I have decided to go for it.

Some while ago some professional pilots mentioned how frustrating it was to be told that "all you do is push buttons and watch the plane fly itself", and in addition how the attitude of their colleagues towards FD visitors / other aviation professionals did not necessarily help.

Although the comparison may be bad, I can draw parallels to this in the theatre industry. The number of times I have been told
that conducting is "just waving your arms around" and that "any Tom, Dick or Harry [to plagarise a phrase ;) ] can play the piano for a show" is beyond counting, and is also immensely frustrating. I am a highly trained professional doing a job that is not particularly easy, and when we have had, as we do on occasion, visitors "sitting in" the pit for a show, their arrogance and naiveté can be astounding.

(Having said that, my job is rarely "safety critical", and I don't have the responsibility of audience's lives in my hands...! :cool: )

There is no doubt at all that being an airline pilot is an incredibly demanding and difficult job that requires a) a massively high level of training, b) enormous financial and personal commitment to even get the qualifications to apply for a job, and, I am sure, c) a certain amount of luck and applying to the right place at the right time. I mean that final point as no disrespect to any professional pilots/FOs, but it holds true for any industry where there are more qualified people than jobs...

So yes, being stuck behind a locked door for 12 or 13 hours a day is something I am willing to tolerate to do what I want to do. It may indeed get wearing, but the 500th time I played "Tell Me It's Not True" in a cramped and frankly quite smelly pit was a bit wearing. Everything, to a greater or lesser extent, becomes at some point "just a job". I never thought that conducting musicals would ever get wearing, but it does.

I am jumping into this with my eyes wide open. I hope to be among "the few" (not meaning to deify flight crews, or indeed go all "Winston Churchill" on you :p ) one day. It may or may not happen for me, but if I don't try I will never forgive myself...

Anyway, my thoughts. They may or may not be relevant.

All the best,

Martin

[stw/Jane]

Hi guys!
Let me tell you my story. I was Flight attendt for 5 years, now I'm flying A320 as FO. During thees 5 years I just fell in love even more with airplanes and aviation. Every cent I put aside for my training.:\
My point is, if you love this you'll go every day happy on your job and that is the best thing can happen to you if not...

I couldn't do anything else!!:O

Cheers

[corklad]

flying is fine...its the ****ty hrs that are a killer...im exhausted all the time and getting paid crap wages and dealing with every one that treats you as a risk and eager to yank your license at any moment. welcome to the airlines baby!:eek:

[chris-squire]

This is the question that I have asked myself many a time.....

Do I really want to borrow a rediculous amount of money with no guarantee of work at the end, work unsociable hours when/if I do get a job, spend the next 9 years in the banks pocket, risk everything I have and give up my very secure and rewarding career which has taken me 3 years to build????

F**k yes!!!!

Why?????

Only if you have a true love of aviation and flying can you understand why. As previosuly said, Flying is a drug and I'm well hooked I'm afraid.

Becoming a commercial pilot is my ultimate career and I won't stop until I get into that RHS. However don't confuse this for blind optomism! I've worked out and meticulously planned everything including a number of contingencies should anythign go tits up.

In my book as long as you plan for a bumpy ride to your first FO position then I can't see any reason why not!

Chris :)

[Katherine Alexandra]

Chris,

I completely agree. Flying gets to you. True, it's not "true flying" in the sense that throwing a PA28 or whatever around the sky is but I'd still much prefer it to a proper office job!

As Chris said, no guarantee, and maybe I will end up in that office anyway. If so, shall throw the PA28 around all the more :}

[roll_over]

But surely after you have been flying for umpteen years your passion for flying has gone, it's just a job, a job that you enjoy sometimes?

Do I have a passion for flying? I don't know, if it means I will fly for any kind of money or for any kind of company then no, I don't have a passion. But I can't think of another job that I would enjoy as much as being a pilot. I love the responsibility that my warrior gives me when I am in the circuit with other planes and on the commercial side, it is at the forefront of technology, heavily focussed on people and the world around us.


The prospect of losing my staff travel at 24 is also a consideration :}

[non sked]

This is one of those threads that takes on a life of its own. I started flying in 1966 and did the airline thing from 1969. I set the brakes on July 30th 2004 in a B737NG and never looked back. Until, well this is where the story for me got me into the "why should I" mode.

Pres. Bush signs into law that you can now fly in the US to age 65. I used to do the ex-pat thing, why not do it again? Didn't I love the 1649 Connie, the B707 and the WW11 guys that taught me how to fly them? Wasn't Indonesia, SE Asia, ME a blast. Oh yeah it did start to get weird around 1987 but by that time I had been a Capt for several years at a rock and roll 121 operation. Flying the B727 with the HUD, transitioning to the B737NG with a stint on the B737-200 for good measure.

As I watched my airline go from a nothing outfit to a golden child in a matter of months was fun. The upgrades came fast and furious, pay raises, new equipment and then we got famous. We were now high priced workers with mgt types cursing that this would be a great business if it just weren't for these pilots and F/A's.

While it did not happen to me I watched as my peers lost their retirements, wages slashed, down grades (harder to go backwards) chapter 11's, Frank Lorenzo's coming out of the wood work. Was not unusual to have a new FE who had come from brand X because of its demise. Oh yeah he or she saw that Toro lawn machine and the patio furniture go down the drive way in the wrong direction. Sure glad I did not take that job with United.

The fact is that you will pay a very high price for the "love of flying". Ask your wife (if you still have one), how do your children fit in with this love of flying deal anyway? By the grace of God I still have great love and affection for my kids and it is the same for them. Guess what--it all got better when I quite flying.

Now I know that you can lead a horse or is it you can't make a silk purse, oh well you know what I mean. When I was younger I could not have been talked out of flying for anything. It was a quest, a journey, a whatever and God help those in my way. Well I flew for 7 airlines and have more type ratings than I need. When I retired I thought I was done with all of it but NO. I thought I had one more hurrah in me.

Started to look into ex-pat stuff overseas. What the hell the kids were grown and it would be fun to learn about another country again. This is what I found. Lots and lots of places need DEC so much that they are working them stupid. 6 days on and 1 day off. My God why would anyone do that to themselves. The answer is I would have and in a heart beat. When I as young and real driven I would have jumped at it. However I no longer have the interest and I might add the stamina to pull it off at 63 Yrs old. The reality is I cant learn much with one day off and chances are I would be tired of it very quickly and on my way home.

For those of you who love to fly, don't do the airline deal. With the automated format of all new airplanes you will finess the auto pilot (that is how they want to fly it, even more so in 3rd world countries) more often than not.

Now the question is would I do it again? Probably as I have a habit of repeating questionable behavior. Flying was what I did it was not what I was. Having said that I did enjoy the chaos of it all. Oh well, time for my nap.





:ugh:

[chris-squire]

Like I've said so many times before it all comes down to personal feelings and how much you're willing to risk and sacrafice to get to where you want to be.

Arguably there are many careers which pay the same or better and are 9-5 monday - friday etc. As mentioned in a couple of my other posts...I'm working 8.30 - 5.30 Monday - Friday as an accountant at the mo. I even quite like my job but it's not flying so it's not for me long term.

I've literally just booked my flights to Moncton and it's such a good sense of achievement knowing that the hard work and headaches to get to this point have paid off at last! Although the real hard work is just beginning I'm still a pretty happy chappy right now!!

:) :) :) :)

[Tamar217]

Great thread, its good to hear different stories, As you all have buckets of experience i wondered if i could grab some opinions.

At 18 years old i chose to join the Royal Navy as a Pilot having achieved ACC at A levels. Sadly after passing militerisation i failed my flight grading. This was a 13 hour couse with an exam at the end where i had to

-Book out
-STTO
-turns acel/decel
-stalls
-spins
-3 piece areo
-2 circuits with glide landing

I could do all of these manouvres by the time my hours were up, however i struggled to put it all in to a smooth routine for the test, i would be forgetting parts of checks or flying at 110kts instead of 100 for example as i was a working to capacity and would make odd mistakes.

Having failed I decided the course was a touch hard and fast and i wasn't a bad pilot, i just needed more hours, so i decided to go it alone, i left the Navy and have just started my PPL at Wycombe with the goal of getting to QFI and later making the jump to airlines.

But life story aside heres where i need some advice. Trying to convince people outside aviation i want to be a pilot when i have just failed a grading makes them stare at me as if im insane. My parents seem subtley upset that i have lost the uniform and think im just flying for the hell of it and am wasting money. Every time i go up im working so hard to get it right i dont get a kick out of it like i think i should, its dam hard work and when i get down im knackered and relieved! The only thing that keeps me going is that as soon as i leave the building i just want to get straight back up there tommorow, and i stop caring about anything else.

In your opinion do you think that sounds like the right motivation to commit myself to this? Has anyone else felt the same way and made it? Or should
I just admit defeat and go to uni like everybody else and get a normal job that pays average and i can just about enjoy? :uhoh:

[corklad]

unfortunately only you can decide if you want to continue or not. whether or not you are up-to-it is only something you can decide...parents and friends will never be able to understand...only judge; and they judge using all the misconceptions the public has about pilots. That said i would definitely get some kind of educational back up. what would you do if you lost your medical or had an accident and couldn't fly again...you'd be screwed. plenty of pilots who go to the airlines have some skeletons in the closet...you wont be the first nor the last. Do what feels right in your gut but ALWAYS have a back up plan...just in case :ok:

[chris-squire]

Tamar217 - Don't worry about failing anything. At one point whilst trying to find a way into aviation I thought that ATC was a good way to go until I could afford to fund flight training. However, I failed the ATC entrance exams somehow! Largely down to not really applying myself 100% because it wasn't actually what I wanted to be doing.

Yes I've done some growing up since then but even so I was gutted at the time. But what else could I expect having not worked at it.

My parents were dissapointed with me when I announced that I was boldly binning my current career to go off into a world of uncertainty and hurrendous debt but they got over it when they saw how hard I worked to get where I am now.

Bottom line, don't give up fella. I remember being 18 and all so eager to get onto a training course so I know exactly how you're feeling. Just plug away at it, find and speak to as many different sources of info as possible to get the whole picture. From that you can decide what best for YOU.

That's what I did anyway. Hope this helps!

Chris :)

[Obs cop]

Tamar217,

I wouldn't get too worried at failing grading, or using it as an indicator for your ultimate aptitude for flying.

Military aviation is tremendously demanding and the training has a finite amount of money and time to train some one to operate a high performance dynamically unstable helicopter at night in appalling weather from a small flight deck off the back end of a frigate. It is a very different type of flying from airlines and they push people very hard from the outset to ensure only the best potential pilots get the vast amounts of money spent on them.

However, military aviation is a very very small percentage of the overall flying community.

Likewise, in the early stages of a PPL, most people find the going tough. If you take significantly more than 45 hours to complete the PPL however, I would seriously look at the viability of becoming a professional pilot. Taking 15 hours more at PPL, then CPL, then IR with addition costs for re-sits can very quickly mount up financially and would be quickly noticed by prospective employers.

Only you will know whether or not pursuing the dream is viable because at the end of the day some very fine gems can be hewn from the roughest looking rocks. There is no substitute for the learning gained from experience and so 200 hours down the line you may well achieve a good standard as a commercial licenced instrument rated pilot.

However, my simple advice is that if you still look back after a rough, demanding, poor performance and hard working flight and still want to get back in the aircraft at the first available opportunity, the flying bug has well and truly bitten. Whether you fly for fun as a PPL or professionally is however the much harder decision that only you can make.

Regards
Obs cop

[Flugplatz]

Dear Tamar 17,

From what you have said so far I would agree with the other posters that you certainly have been bitten by the flying bug! and in fact I would say that you have already shown the chief qualification for an aviation career - a true love of flying.

I am now a career helicopter pilot and have had some fantastic experiences flying in amazing locations around the world. I wake up in the morning and (weather permitting!) literally cannot wait to go flying! I love the feeling of 'blasting off' from an airfield or helipad early in the morning and heading out for a day of challenging, true avaition, far above my cares and worries on the ground. True, it is a form of escapism but to me it feels like such a natural environment that I never for one moment have questioned my choice; in fact now I am more worried that I might not be fit for anything else! (motivation wise).

Don't worry about your parents thinking you are in some sort of daydream, mine were the same; it sounds like yours can't really understand your passion for flight; they are perplexed. To some, flying will always be seen as a sort of juvenile endeavour a waste of talent and ability which could usefully be employed elsewhere in professions and industries with more social cachet and better prospects. You will have to live with the fact that many people, even your nearest and dearest, do not take aviation as a career seriously, unless it is wrapped in some conventional cover such as Airline jet pilot/Military pilot, (where the respectability of the institution lends credibility).

If it is any consolation, I was in the military but was rejected for flying training despite passing the OASC tests several times (RAF Flying Scholarship, AAC) and also passed flying grading on Chipmunks. I am still not sure why I was ultimately rejected (not too impressive on the final interview! and no degree maybe, plus those of my fellow candidates who did get on the APC were, I have to say, extremely impressive individuals!). The point is that I still loved flying and although one avenue had closed, I then set off down an alternative route but with the same overall goal. That is what you must do (sounds like you're doing it already!). There is a huge amount of randomness in life and flying is no exception; just having flying ability is no guarantee of anything, luck and persistance are equally (more?) important. Remain positive! time will give you perspective. You can't just 'turn off' a fascination with flight!

I know it can seem depressing now that the military has denied you, you will have to fork out huge amounts of money, probably get into debt and have a number of years living in near poverty; but the rewards are there just the same, it will just take a little longer! In fact there is really a lot more opportunity in civvy street, a lot more variety and lot less artificial constraints; you are much more a master of your own destiny. There is a worthwhile and rewarding career for you, but you have to pursue it with vigour. Don't give up and you will find that you will enjoy a fascinating career that will be deeply satisfying and rewarding, and great fun!

Flug

[Tamar217]

Thanks for the above advice!

I'm going to have a crack at PPL and ATPL, if i pass those within the times i'll keep going and if not i'll just have to chose a new career. Might even tell you how it goes in a few months!

[Kahn]

That is what i wanted to hear

godspeed to me

[xchox]

I just completed my ground school.

First thing I learned:

"If you want your commercial... remember to sign a pre-nup"

[NewEssO]

this has been a wonderful thread to read. thank you.

it is clear that commerical aviation isn't all it cracked out to be. I do have a question for those who had a previous life with a different career (doctors, lawyers, IT consultants etc), in hindsight would you do it again? I understand that its be talked about (i.e. would have gone to school etc)

But my question is more targetted to those with many years into their previous career and are well established. $150k+ annual income, i guess that's $80k-90k+ pounds. Is it worth it? is it worth putting your wife in the stress for our own dream having to relocate etc?

cheers
NSO

[Flingingwings]

When you qualify and if you get a decent job - Yes it's worth it :ok:

For me, I was happy to try as it's what I'd always wanted to do. 11 years in a previous career, good regular money, secure furture. But boring :uhoh:

Self funded everything at 30. Wife and parents all figured it was a very early mid life crisis that would lead to little. To their credit they all accepted my madness and helped through the tough times.

Frighteningly expensive, but lifes too short not to give it a go (as long as you're willing to accept the risks)

FW

[chris-squire]

NSO - Im giving up a financially rewarding career as an accountant to do this. As very well said above, if you can accept the risks involved then it will be fantastic. I mean, what better feeling can there be than conquering your life ambition!

If you get a decent job and your family are ok with it then it'll be worth it but on the other hand if you look back in 5 years without a job, in **** loads of debt and no real way back to your old career then obviously it won't have been worth it.

For me, Im risking enough at 22. Would I do it when Im married with Kids and a mortgage...probably not. But like everything else in flight training, how you go about it is a very personal thing and has to suit your circumstances.

In short, the decision has to be yours but good luck and I hope all goes well whatever you decide.

CS :ok:

CS

[richmanpoorman]

I'm 36, with wife, mortgage and 3 children and I've suppressed this dream for too long now and know if I don't take the opportunity to make aviation a career now, I'll have to live with the regret for the rest of my life.

Having partially satisfied the flying bug with cheaper options such as gliding and paragliding, I've realised that although they are fantastic forms of flying (and well worth considering if powered flight is prohibitively expensive), they are very weather dependant, time consuming and hard to fit in around family commitments. Despite my mounting debts due to training costs, flying as an occupation is the way forward for me, whether that takes me to an airline, instructor post or crop spraying in Kuala Lumpa.

If you have a dream of flying now, that dream will not leave you. Consider how you will feel if you don't pursue your dream.

[Dekka]

well i too had an "early mid life crisis" deciding that i needed to wake up and want to go to work. I gave it much thought investigation and consideration...fast forward 2 years and $100,000 and i now have a CPL, Seminole (twin) endorsement and just last week completed my ME Command Instrument Rating. dillema is; from what i have heard and learned during my training is i'm not sure i still want this as a career... fact is i feel that the training and testing is laborious and stressful and have reached a level where i can see that the testing, in the form of interviews check rides and renewals, will be a continuous stressor. of course i have invested too much, more than just money, to pack it all in. i think what i need to hear from someone is that there is a point when the tests become routine and the flying becomes enjoyable. or at least that someone else has gone through the same torture as I and has come through the other end with a smile on their face.

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

Welcome to the reality that has been described by experienced pilots in previous posts. I have been on jets (B737 and A319)for 10 years now, the last four in the LHS. The sim rides only get harder as there is a greater expectation to perform to a higher level each time. Every time your life/house/income is riding on the outcome. You then have crewing dictating your life, missing out on all those once in a lifetime events that you only realise were important when it is too late. The thrill of seeing the sunrise through bleary eyelids at o'dark o'clock soon dissipates.

However, did I listen to those who warned me about the perils of the profession beforehand.....No!! Would I still go into the profession knowing what I do now....Absolutely!!! I would not want to do anything else. Every job becomes mundane and the reason why pilots complain is because the reality does not come close to the preconceptions that they had of the job.

Word of warning though, Would I be willing to put my parent's house at risk by doing a CTC type scheme using a secured loan when there are very few permanent jobs that would enable you to service the debt... NO NO NO!!!!!!

[JB007]

Nail on head:

...pilots complain is because the reality does not come close to the preconceptions that they had of the job.

And sadly, the past few years have got worse, mainly due to a crazed bonus culture that seems to have swept through management teams around the UK...and pilots are high cost...so I would also add to the above and say not so much the preconceptions of doing the actual day job of aviating (quite a few years in and I still get a kick out of it!) but a huge disappointment in the industry as a whole...

I think this will be the hardest thing for a Wannabe to get his/her head around if they are choosing a second career and you have experience of another industry.