Saw this elsewhere... Anyone hear anything? Sad...

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Some sad news coming out of Switzerland:

The flight controller who has been blamed for the collision between a UPS 757 and a Tupolev 154 in 2002 over Germany has been stabbed and killed in front of his house. Police is not yet sure if it has got anything to do with the accident in 2002.....

They just reported it on the German morning news but without any details, only that which you already wrote.... I'm sure there will be more reported during the day.... :(

Westy

This is a straight translation of a newswire describing the episode. It was taken from the online edition of the Danish newspaper Jyllands-posten:

"A 36 year old Danish ATC, who lives and works in Switzerland was stabbed to death on Tuesday.

According to the police an unidentified man called on the Dane in his home in the suburbs of Zürich. A heated argument ensued, which culminated with the ATC being fatally injured from several knife stabs to his body.

On the night before Wednesday police were intensively searching for a dark-haired male in his early fifties speaking a coarse German.

The unnamed Dane worked in the service of Swiss ATC company Skyguide, which is responsible for parts of German airspace bordering Switzerland.

In July of 2002 the ATC was alone on duty when a Boeing 757 freight plane collided with a Russian Tupolev 154 plane carrying 69 passengers the majority of whom being Russian minors en route to a holiday in Spain. The collision happened at an altitude of 11 kilometers above Überlingen near the Bodensee between Switzerland and Germany.

The accident resulted in 71 fatalities and a police spokesman said Tuesday that no conclusion had as yet been reached on whether the stabbing could be connected to the role played by the Danish ATC in this incident."

Source: http://www.jp.dk/udland/artikel:aid=2285068/

A very sad story indeed.

Just to let those of you who may be coming into Zürich/Kloten. Because of this tragic event and the shock, no doubt, felt by his colleagues, Skyguide has reduced traffic flow in and out by approx. 40% so as not to overstress the working ATCO at this time.

It is an absolute tragedy and it still seems unreal. I worked with the guy and he was a very decent and modest bloke. My thoughts are with his wife and three children.

http://www.skyguide.ch/scripts/asp/press_e.asp

Schock and fears of what's next can resume the feelings of many controllers in Europe.
Of course we do not know yet for sure it the murder is connected to the collision. But everyone at work cannot take this out of its mind of course.
Questions like :
How did his name and address become public ?
What does this mean for all of us now ?

The most ironical is that the final report of this collision is almost ready and was due to be made public in the next 2 months. The pre-version shows clearly the chain of event in which he was involved , and anyone who who have read the report would have known what was behind the real causes of that tragedy. And it was not that single individual !

Rest in peace, my friend , our toughts are with you and with your familly ( his wife is also a controller ) and with all the colleagues in Zurich and Geneva ( where he worked lately )

BBC News report:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3484878.stm

Even if the death is connected, it is senseless as it does not bring any of the accident victims back to life.

Now that just sucks so much! (Sorry, can't be more creative).

As the has been no link between this unfortunate event and those of Überlingen, speculation will be rife. If can echo ATC Watchers thoughts, and not detracting from what has happened, there will be many aviation professionals who will be shocked by this.

My thoughts go out to his family

Best Wishes.

On the question of how his name and address became public, obviously I have no idea in this case, but people should be aware that in a UK criminal court (which is public, and often attended by the press) the first thing that happens in all proceedings is that the defendant is identified by name, DOB and address.

Naturally there are procedures to have this identification in camera if this is thought necessary, but the default is that it is public.

Just a thought for anyone who finds themselves in such a siutuation.

Timothy

On the question of how his name and address became public, obviously I have no idea in this case

the day after the überlingen desaster, the biggest newspaper in Switzerland named his initials and the village he was living in, and they mentionned his nationality. With help of the internet phone directory, it was a matter of seconds to find his address. just typed the village and profession, and i got 12 entries. One of them sounded "nordic".

So, never mention your profesion, unless really necessary.

my thoughts are with his family...

al

The 36 year-old air traffic controller P.N. who was on duty as a Tupolew and a DHL-Boeing collided on July 1st. '02 above the German city of Ueberlingen has been murdered yesterday in Zurich, said the police of the Kanton.

A man in his fifties with a slavic accent came to his doorsteep and stabbed him to death. The Skyguide employee died on the spot. He was married and had three children.

The police did not comment on a possible link between the murder and the July '02 crash above Ueberlingen. 71 people died, among them a number of children flown from Moscow to spend their holidays in Spain.

The police of the Kanton of Zurich asked the population to come forward with informations, if any available. A lawyer for the crash victims said that the litigation is underway and that in the course of the negociation "nothing abnormal" came into light.

The murdered Skyguide employee had returned to work some time after the crash, but was not anymore acting as an air traffic controller.

My sincerest condolences go out to his wife (who was a witness)and family.
These poor people went through so much already and now this!!

May the gentleman rest in peace, condolences to his family. I am sure he controlled me many times safely and professionally.

SF

This is indeed VERY disturbing. Makes everything else somehow unimportant. Condolences to his family. This must have significant implications for all of us who work in safety critical professions. There is ALWAYS an error chain, I look forward to seeing the report.

How very sad

Crikey! This has HUGE implications for all those of us who have this kind of responsibility in their job. Does it now mean that if a pilot or an ATCO is implicated in an accident such as this that they will now have to be provided with a new identity and something approaching 'witness protection'?

What measures will the ATC employers now be forced to take to protect the identities of controllers involved in serious incidents? What measures will the Press take to ensure that that confidentiality is not breached? Or will the unscrupulous find a way in as they always seem to?

If the final report implicates apparent failings in the fitness of equipment at Skyguide on that evening to do the task (phone and radar outages), how does this square with the ATCO involved paying for his mistake with his life when it was not entirely his fault?

A sad day for us all, and it really makes you think about what responsibility we have. Let's hope this was a one-off tragedy and not a trend of taking revenge for professional errors.:eek:

There are many Danish controllers in Zurich, both in ACC and APP/TWR.

Absolutely appalling and, more to the point, very very sad news.

I hope those that are responsible are dealt with in a swift and just way.

Does it now mean that if a pilot or an ATCO is implicated in an accident such as this that they will now have to be provided with a new identity and something approaching 'witness protection'?

Even not so prominent businessmen in Russia have personal protection. Consider that only relatively wealthy Russians could have afforded to send their children abroad on holidays. While such a nasty outcome could not easily have been envisaged, in hindsight, it looks inevitable.

I am sure most ATCOs when reading about incidents think there but for the grace of God go I.
The gentleman was I am sure far more punishing on himself than anyone else could have been.
He never deserved this.
My deepest condolences to his family friends and colleagues.
May he finally rest in peace

Totally shocking. I can only hope that the authorities find who committed this appaulling act ASAP.
My thoughts and best wishes go out to his family, friends and workmates.

Danny. Could you open a condolence book like the one for the crew in the Glasgow crash ?

I know these things seem meaningless at the moment but many of the personal tributes from strangers in that previous book must have given the familes a little flavour of how small and united the aviation profession can be.

Perhaps ATC services should be denied to East Block a/c until the culprit and his paymasters have been turned up.

And that will spare the rest of us the worry that another East Block crew will blindly follow ATC instructions opposite to a TCAS RA.

I know I'm not saying anything new by giving my condolences here. But wanna do that. No one deserves to be stabbed at home. And if ultimately the accident was the reason for such a shameless and brutal act: pain doesn't heal with pain. Death doesn't bring back to life.

Life's a b*@<hidden>#tch.

Perhaps ATC services should be denied to East Block a/c until the culprit and his paymasters have been turned up.

Jumping the gun.there ..Lets wait and see who the police charge.


And that will spare the rest of us the worry that another East Block crew will blindly follow ATC instructions opposite to a TCAS RA

Lets see what the official report brings.


The REAL issue is that a family have been deprived of a Father and Husband.Let your thoughts dwell on that for a while.
TRULY APPALLING NEWS My thoughts are with his family and colleagues .

He was stabbed to death in front of his wife.

Ric

I am sure most ATCOs when reading about incidents think there but for the grace of God go I.
The gentleman was I am sure far more punishing on himself than anyone else could have been.
He never deserved this.
My deepest condolences to his family friends and colleagues.
May he finally rest in peace
I could not agree more with Flower's entire post. I am stunned and my thoughts are with his family and those who knew him.

There but for the grace of God go I. It could have been any of us.

Dave

words truly defy me, and I cannot say any more than Flower did. Shocking, awful, my deepest condolences to the rest of the family. But, as already stated, children of high-ranking Russian officials.... kinda obvious who did it??

I am full of frustration and hatress against the one/those who did it.
But also our "modern", civilizised" mass media culture is guilty. They always tried to find the big story and to critisize a company already being under pressure. Altough everyone familiar with the topic knows that there was not one single cause leading to the Ueberlingen accident. And if you want to blame someone, than you have to blame the Tupolev pilots the most.
The Danish controller already was punished for the rest of his live. He didn't diserve this.

Dani

God bless his family, who must be suffering so much. It is an insult to them who have already endured more than enough.

If his death is indeed linked to the accident (so this is a revenge killing) then it suggests to me that Skyguard management must have permitted the idea of his "guilt" to remain in the public domain. Why? We will of course have to wait until the final report is published but from what I know of the accident, it seems clear to me that responsibility for the circumstances this poor man found himself in that night rest with the Skyguard management. It seems, dare I say it, cowardly of them not to have accepted that, publicly, and thereby protected their charge from such vengeance.

It is reasonable to ask therefore: If it ever happens here, will our managment accept responsibility for our high pressure working environment, with insufficient runway and stand capacity, high r/t loadings, staff shortages, commercial pressure etc. I suggest they would more likely take the view that an individual has broken the rules. That being the case we are all in this man's boat.

How sad that there can be so little compassion left in this world.

Point 4

My sincere condolences to the family of the murdered air traffic controller.

To the rest of Skyguide: you're a bunch of wimps.

Not one iota of evidence has so far been produced linking this crime to the collision over Ueberlingen. Any policeman will tell you that the most common time for burglaries to happen is at dusk, that most in Switzerland are committed by refugees from the Balkans of whom there are a disproportionate number in that country, that a favourite break-in route is via patios or ground floor balconies, and that their favourite weapon is the knife.

It is despicable that so many Skyguide employees stayed away from work this morning, thereby causing further inconvenience and distress to the travelling public - who do after all pay their wages.

Did half of Swissair stop working after the disaster at Halifax? Did all airline flight operations grind to a halt outside the USA after September 11th? Of course not! The professionals showed their true grit by getting on with the job and not running away into the arms of some 'counsellor'.

To those who crudely criticise the Russian pilots for not following the TCAS commands: wait for the official report to be published in two month's time or read the preliminary information at:

www.bfu-web.de/berichte/02_ax001dst.pdf

Note particularly the status of communications to adjacent ACC centres and look carefully at the working practises in Skyguide at the time of the collision.

694c,

You're a disgrace !! :mad:

I suggest you fark off and let us all share our grief over this horrible event in decency.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

I don't know who you are, but your comments are outrageous.

Everyone who works at the airport is in shock and all you can do is slag off the ATCOs.

Firstly I'd like to add my condolences to the growing list of those already expressed - it won't bring the gentleman back, but I hope in some small way it helps.

Secondly, I was listening to the BBC Radio 4 news this evening, and heard the controller described as "responsible for the crash" on two occasions. I felt this was so wrong that I phoned the BBC feedback number - 0870 010 0222 - and said so, with brief reasons why. The gent at the other end has registered my comments, and will feed them to the producers at BBC Radio 4 news. Whether anything happens remains to be seen. If anyone else heard the same reports I would urge them to do the same.

This is a truly shocking event and my deepest sympathies go out to the controller's family and friends.

I don't know what evidence there is to link the stabbing the the crash, but the British press have already suggested it was a relative of one of the children who died in the crash:

Grieving man 'kills air controller'

A victim's relative is suspected of murdering the air traffic controller who was blamed for a mid-air crash that killed 45 Russian children. Peter Nielson, who was suspended after the crash over southern Germany 19 months ago, was stabbed to death in front of his wife on the terrace of their home near Zurich airport. The killer, a heavily built man aged 50-55, went to the house, spoke briefly in broken German to the controller -- a 36-year-old Dane -- and then stabbed him, police said.

From The Times, The London Evening Standard were also running a similar headline.

Nr Fairy - Agree it is quite wrong for the BBC to describe him as 'responsible for the crash'; the circumstances that transpired for him to be on duty alone that night, while the phones were being repaired and unbeknowst to him were not working, were very unfortunate indeed. He made mistakes that night, but so do we all. No doubt he felt responsible all the same.

694c - very insensitive and unwise comments.

We know that the poor man had seen the danger of the collision too late - tried to avert it and that TCAS called an opposite manouver from the one he gave.

From that point on any blame lies at the door of the pilot training organisation - on the Russian side. Always follow TCAS - I guess we know this by now - there are enough incidents to show what happens if you don't.

The pilots, as are their passengers and crews, dead. The ATCO, obviously was not killed in the crash but left alive to come to terms with a terrible realisation. The support of his family was needed.

And now this. A Russian relative of one of the killed passengers said live on TV tonight, that he thought the ATCO should have been "locked up in a bare room for 99years and not allowed visits from his children."

If that kind of understanding and sentiment is typical, then God help us all.

Tragic event.
I can't think of anything to say other than, respect to all ATC.
dd

694c you are an insane son of a xxxx!!!:mad:

There has a man been stabbed and his colleagues are in shock. Naturally a lot of them are not mentally fit, so they reduce workload or/and do not show up for work. Who the fxxx cares about “inconvenience”. Safety first. And if this has to be achieved with reducing the traffic, so be it.
You compare with SR111: First of all an ATCO’s job is much more complex and demanding then sitting up front in an airplane. The concentration level is much higher. Believe me, I’ve done both! And then how many times have you flown with one of the pilots involved? Did you even know them personally? In an ACC you see and work with your FRIENDS and colleagues every single day.

I truly hope we have never shared cockpit in an SR aircraft. If we did I spit on that day!!!!!

Everybody jumping to conclusions and linking this tragic event to the midair collision for which the atc fellow was supposedly "blamed" which has as of yet not been established ...as mentioned above it takes a chain of events, all the "holes align" so to speak, for a tragedy to occur..so lets let the police do their job, and the aviation investigators do theirs before we all make assumptions...:confused: :hmm:

what_goes_up,

That was loud and clear I'd say.

BTW check your PMs.

694c you dumb a...hole.
The reason these guys didnt go to work was because they didnt sleep most of last night and had the courage to say that they wouldnt be able to provide a safe environment for aircrew to operate in. Its not because they are scared of showing their faces!! You dumb moron. They all gathered at the murdered chaps house to grieve the loss of a close friend in front of running cameras. Now the whole world knows what the rest of the guys that work here look like.
Or would you rather they come to work and we have another disaster on our hands?? S:mad: t for brains!!!!

Words fail me. What a dark, sad day. As with many of the contributors to this thread, my toughts are first and foremost with his wife and kids. God give them strength. On behalf of his colleagues at EDYY, our condolences to his friends at Skyguide.





649c ..... you truly are a small-minded to$$er!

Well Reuters, although not exactly unbiased, is suggesting the murder was linked:

Controller Blamed in Germany Crash Killed
Wed Feb 25, 1:46 PM ET


ZURICH, Switzerland - An air traffic controller who ordered a passenger plane into the path of another aircraft over Germany — a crash that killed dozens of Russian children — was stabbed to death Wednesday in front of his wife.

The attacker was a heavily built man aged 50-55, possibly Eastern European, with graying hair and a three-day stubble. He showed up at the controller's home Tuesday night, spoke briefly to the controller in broken German, killed him, and fled on foot.


Beyond that description, police said they have no leads on the killer but are investigating a possible link between the stabbing and the crash 19 months ago that killed 71 people. The accident was blamed on the controller, a 36-year-old Danish citizen who has never been named by authorities.


"There wasn't much said," District Attorney Pascal Gossner told The Associated Press. He declined to say what words were exchanged between the killer and victim, because it is part of the investigation.


He also said there were other people there at the time of the murder, but would not say if they included the couple's three children. The controller died at the scene, police said.


"We are looking at all sorts of aspects," said Gossner of possible motives — including that the murder was connected to the July 1, 2002, crash over southern Germany, an area run by Swiss air traffic.

The first line of the Reuters news report is not particularly accurate is it?!!

649c, if your comments were made to make you notorious, congrats , u got it pal, but for the worse reasons of all. Grow up.


Just found this one on a wild search;

http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/atc_20020701.pdf

My deepest condolences to the family of your coleague.

GDL

Ok you drew me out you people...the Capt on the DHL 757 was my colleague...If anybody had an axe to grind, it wouldbe me ..believe me..my wife got called out to inform the Capt's wife...so all you people PLEASE...PLEASE.... let the people doing the investigation do their jobs...if you know me..and trust me people do....if it;s b.s. trust o'le ironbutt to post it -pls....did I ever let you down?....live it like I am and will my whole career got changed believe you folks' believe me, the truth WILL come out..it wont go away....just bear with us....."good things come to those who wait".... :yuk: :{ :cool: :rolleyes:

649c,

Look, we all live with the possibility of an accident. There's a world of difference between showing 'grit' and carrying on after an accident, and having one of your colleagues *murdered*, in circumstances which give rise to strong suspicions it was related to his (and your!) job. If you can't see that, shame on you.

ironbutt57,

Well said.

R1

not knowing the horse you rode in on I can only say that the day freedom of speech is quashed for whatever reason is a very sad day my friend. You have a right to speak, without abuse, the last umpteen years have taught us that surely

Flower, in total agreement.
649c, please find another constellation to play in.

My feelings tonight are with his family and his colleagues.

May your gods go with you

:( Day 3 : The shock is still there and the questions are starting to be clearer in the minds .

Let's not wander off the facts :

The link between the collision and the murder is still not established. there are other possibilities .

But every ATCO around the world cannot take it off its mind that it is...

The media speculation is at its worst .

The Reuters Feb25 , 1:46 PM ET newswire ( copies somewhere earlier here ): Controller blamed for Collision " has made headlines all around the world.
The first para of that wire is even worse :
__________________________________________________
ZURICH, Switzerland - An air traffic controller who ordered a passenger plane into the path of another aircraft over Germany — a crash that killed dozens of Russian children — was stabbed to death Wednesday in front of his wife.
___________________________________________________
That sentence , every word of it , is terrible. I allows speculation and disregard the investigation findings.

So the world, who will never read the final report, will always remember him as the guy that caused the collision.

:yuk: on the guy that made that wire. I hope he meets his familly one day face to face.

Although we all agreed to keep his name away from everything , some newspapers, (including The Times in London yesterday) published it together with the placed he lived. What does this bring to the public ? I tought that , especially in the UK , after the Dr Kelly affair the press would be more sensitive with revealing names of individuals .

In the Russian media , he is portrayed as the only person responsible for the collision and for the death of 64 kids.

The representatives of the famillies said they dis not want him killed just brought to justice ( Interfax 25.2. )

Stange world who decide who is guilty and pass sentence before knowing the facts...as the report is not yet out.

Oh yes, there will be consequences for us all .
The effects of which are only beginning to emmerge.

finally 649c : I have seen with my own eyes the effect of SR111 to SWR staff and crew. You do not know what you are talking about.
You are obviously a very strong person that does not need councelling and despise those who are temporalily affected by a trauma.
I bet life will have a surprise for you one day, for whatever reason, and you will remember then what you have said here.

A family denied their Husband/Dad and for what? The poor kids, what ever will they think? :(

Rest in peace!

Irrespective of what the report says, NO ATC would knowingly contribute to a MAC.

To have a life taken in this way (As speculated) when he was just doing his job (In very difficult circumstances from what I hear) is just obscene.

‘There but for the grace of God………..’

My thoughts are with the Family and the Guys and Gals at Skyguide.

ATCO Australia

I believe that it is quite clear that this ATCO did not cause that accident! He was involved in it, as were the pilots of the aircraft and the children on board, and everyone else that played a role. The cause of that accident (the official version is due to be out soon) in my opinion was a simple failure of a number of systems, some equipment and procedures. Had a different ATCO been sat in the seat at the time, the likelihood of a different outcome is minimal. I guess that he went to his grave carrying the blame. I hope that his wife and children will be allowed to bury him, knowing that it was not his fault!

All the pathetic b!tching and bickering doesn't help either. What will help is that if you complain to your MP and local newspaper/radio/TV station each time that they make unfounded, inaccurate and blatantly sensationalist reports.

RIP my friend.

I would just like to add my condolences to those of almost everyone else here. Unfortunately, I never had the pleasure of meeting the controller involved - my loss. My heart goes out to his family and all my colleagues in LSZH.

649c

Your comments are beneath contempt. Clearly you have little or no understanding of the effects of human factors in the realm of aviation. I suggest you do us all a favour and f:mad:ck off back to whatever rock you hide under.

It has just been announced that the police have arrested a man in connenction with the murder. No further details until a news conference scheduled for 14:30 local ( 13:30 UTC ).

Again, from BBC news:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3489166.stm

A lawyer for families of the crash victims said they were distressed at ... a connection being made between their tragedy and the murder.

The Nr Fairy,

Looks like the BEEB has changed its tune.
I've just heard the 12:00 news on radio 4 and the words used were:

"the controller who was on duty at the time of the crash".

My deepest sympathy goes out to all involved.

New F/O

Lots of high emotions here.

Just a point about the CAUSE of the crash.

Ultimately, the only people who could cause or prevent the actual collision were the two crews involved. They were the only people with the ability to influence or change the flightpaths of the two aircraft up until the point where they collided. In pure factual terms, then, the aircrews caused (or did not prevent) the collision because they allowed their aircraft to fly into another one. That may be hard to take (especially for ironbutt 57 and others who knew the crews), but the ATCO had no physical control over the aircraft. He could only give what he thought were the best instructions to avoid. He could have no knowledge of what TCAS was advising. That is the difficulty of our profession: we can give instructions, but ultimately we can only watch what happens. This, and the tragedy of losing a colleague, will probably weigh heavy on the shoulders of all ATCOs, but particularly Skyguide personnel. Nothing wimpish about that.

Further than this, there is of course always a chain of events which lead to an accident, and there are many elements, of which the actions of the ATCO are only a few, which all ended in the tragedy. The official report will of course cover all these, and cause will be apportioned. I cannot foresee a situation where blame will be placed in only one area, but I am not party to the official investigation!

If it is decided that the crew of the Tu154 were in error for following ATC instructions against a continuing TCAS instruction, then I fear what will happen in Russia... (or even if it is decided that the DHL crew persisted with following an RA which patently wasn't working..)

I'm not trying to stir it up or apportion blame, I just think we should not lose sight of the facts as far as we know them.

EITS
I am not sure I entirely agree that the pilots are the only ones who could cause or save the day.

Is it not true to say that for the accident to occur a number of 'hoops' had to line up? Sure, the russian aircrew lined a couple up (in good faith) but didn't the ATC system also line a few up? The circumstances this poor chap found himself in, disabled systems, 2 jobs on seperate screens etc. were not of the aircrew's making. Responsibility for that surely lies with the Skyguide management?

Point 4

point 4 :

In this case here were 13 of these "hoops "as you call them .
Each one of them , taken individually, was not serious enough to cause a collision but had any of them not been there the collision would most probably not have happenned.

Blaming the action of a single individual ( ZRH controller, Russian pilot F [or even DHL pilot F] , ZRH Ops manager, ZRH system manager , TCAS designer, etc.. etc... ) is totally wrong and completely irrelevant.

A sytem failed, not one person.

I hope the report will come out soon, but I fear it will be delayed now.

Please, lets not get into a debate about blame again. This was done a long time ago on another thread and got out of hand with poor facts and lots of speculation. Now is not the time.

Remember what has just happenned here.

A member of the aviation community has just sadly and tragically lost his life. Let the final report fill in all of the many gaps, meantime let people mourn for a collegue/voice at the other end/husband and father.

May he Rest In Peace and his family, friends and collegues manage to recover from such awful events bestowed upon them. My thoughts go out.

The representatives of the famillies said they dis not want him killed just brought to justice ( Interfax 25.2. )

Yeah, right. They'd be over the moon, relatively speaking. The above is just for PR purposes.

A sytem failed, not one person

A most sensible summary of the tragedy. If only the media would understand this.

My point, perhaps not clearly put, was that the 'hoop' or 'swiss cheese' approach was indeed the case here, and all those 'hoops' or 'holes in the cheese' lined up to allow the tragedy. But in the final seconds the only people who physically could have prevented the collision were the aircrew, not the ATCO.

A 48yr old suspect was arrested. He lost a wife, daughter and a son in the midair over Ueberlingen. Acording to the police the suspect had a piece of paper on his possession with the name and address of the victim and had been in SUI since 18 Feb residing close by in a hostel.
At this stage it looks like he acted alone.

Quoting entirely the press conference.

Quoted from www.swissinfo.org (English version of Swiss news website).

Ric

=============================================
"The suspect, a 48-year-old man, was arrested close to the town of Kloten near Zurich on Wednesday night. Police have refused to disclose his nationality.

The suspect was questioned and he denied committing the murder.

"But he gave the impression that he had not come to terms with the death of his daughter, son and wife who died in the accident," said Zurich prosecutor Pascal Gossner.

Gossner said the man had been in Switzerland once before to attend a memorial service for the victims of the crash. Police said he had "drawn attention to himself" at the service.

Suspect seen at murder scene

Police said the suspect had spoken to a neighbour of the 36-year-old victim on Tuesday evening.

The suspect was holding a piece of paper and wanted to know where the air traffic controller lived.

Gossner said the suspect then went and sat in the victim's garden.

According to police the victim's wife also spoke to the man. A short while later she went back inside her home and heard a sound she couldn't identify.

She then saw her husband lying on the ground and the suspect fleeing the scene.

Police said they later found a knife with a 14cm blade - suspected to be the murder weapon - close by.

The Danish victim, who died at the scene worked for the Swiss air traffic control agency, Skyguide. He had lived in Switzerland for seven years and was the father of three children."

=============================================

Sorry guys, I've read the whole thread, discussing who might or might not be to blame for the collision. Just a line to say: should have P.N. been alone and entirely responsable for the tragic event that would not give anyone in the world the right to kill him.

It looks now as if he has been stabbed by a relative of victims of the crash, adding more pain to the pain.

Would a more swift and demonstrative response of the commercial aviation authorities and justice after a crash help to calm down the feelings of grief and revenge?

Investigations usually last for years and seldom come to clear-cut conclusions. Would there be means to speed up the investigation process on one hand and educate the public on the other hand?

The above-linked BBC story has now been updated - the person arrested lost his entire family in the crash.

694c

Those comments of yours have embarassed me to be in the same line of work as you are. We are all aviation professionals and thos comments.... Wish I could have heard you say those out loud in front of me.. you would have been sitting on your a**

I know PN personally and you couldn't ask for a better guy. My heard goes out to his family and collegues.

I worked in Geneva the day after the Uberlingen crash. You would not believe the stress we were all under for the days following.

Skyguide.. great move reducing capacity. Let those who need time away grieve!

EITS

Now understood. Agreed

.4

ettore,

Would a more swift and demonstrative response of the commercial aviation authorities and justice after a crash help to calm down the feelings of grief and revenge?

While a more assertive official response might not mitigate feelings of grief, it might at least help to build up more confidence with those involved that the "truth" will be found, shortcomings and failures be disclosed and adequate measures be taken as soon as possible to avoid similar tragedies in the future.

The time victims usually have to wait for (financial) compensation (which can never compensate the loss of family members, of course), and the sheer number of denials, of attempts to blame others, the usual delayal tactics by lawyers, insurance companies and institutions directly involved (airline or ATC companies, aircraft manufacturers etc...) is often outrageous. It is good and important to attempt to get all the facts right, but a swift and assertive effort to care for the victims is often missing.

A very tragic chain of events, indeed, with five more victims now.

I think that quite a few people here have been very, very hard on 694c. His choice in using certain adjectives to get his points across may have been insensitive under the circumstances. But this thread did not start out solely in order to express condolences. :uhoh:

airship,

To say it with a famous John McEnroe quote:

YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS!

:(

My heartfelt sympathy to the grieving family. They did not deserve this. As Findo said earlier, a book expressing all our sympathy may some day help the family. Looking further ahead, perhaps we,as a profession, can pay our respects worldwide on the day of the funeral with a minutes silence as we do in the UK 11/11?

To 694c: You can't possible know what you are talking about!

I am one of several Danes working in ACC ZRH and PN was a very good friend of mine! He was one of the best, and may he rest in peace!

I don’t know if you ever had a close friend of yours murdered, but I have NOT been able to do my job as ATCO the last couple of days and since it is my own responsibility to know if I am fit or not, I chose to stay home and mourn with good friends!

I have also been to a counselor - and I am not ashamed of that, on the contrary!

I saw the wife and PNs parents + sister yesterday, and they are all totally heartbroken, as are we! I hope they can somehow, someday get on with their lives, my thoughts are with them!

It is a very difficult time for all of us, so leave us alone and let us grieve in peace!

I hope we can get some closure now that the police captured what seems to be the perpetrator!

I am horrified at what the controller's family, friends and colleagues must be going through -- before and after his murder.

While I am relieved that the suspect murderer has been quickly apprehended and that he does not seem to be a mafiya hitman -- and utterly disagree with his suspicions of fault: somehow he was left in his grief to focus blame on the poor guy who happened to pull that shift.

Airship,

As well as his harsh comments about Skyguide he had this to say:

649c:
Any policeman will tell you that the most common time for burglaries to happen is at dusk, that most in Switzerland are committed by refugees from the Balkans of whom there are a disproportionate number in that country [...]

He's quite welcome to say it, but must expect some criticism about the of whom there are a disproportionate number bit. It sounds like all the SVP rubbish that used to come through my letterbox when I lived in Zurich.

[SVP = Schweizerische Volkspartei]

Yes indeed all the hoops were lined up and a tragic sequence of events ensued. It was not the controllers fault. We understand, especially in aviation, that this happens and design equipment and procedures that in the final analysis will rescue the situation. In this case TCAS. The Russian crew ignored it and flew into the 757.

Seriph wrote, ".... TCAS. The Russian crew ignored it ...."

I feel that you are simplifying the situation. From released transcripts ther was considerable confusion in the cockpit. he Eastern Block approach is to always follow the controller's instructions. Not having access to the ICAO docs at the moment I cannot check whether there is a published exception to the ICAO standards/recomendations on this.

PN made a judgement call, based on the information available to him at that moment. Tragically it was proven wrong. As many others have pointed out, "There but for the Grace of God ...."

Historically, it requires a tragedy of this magnitude to bring about improvements in the system, (e.g. the Grand Canyon accident in the 1950s).

I know that within 24 hours of at Maastricht there was a review of working practices and a number of changes were made, NOT I hasten to add, that they were unsafe in the first place. It was a case of belt and braces. I am sure that this action was taken world wide; whilst this is of no consolation to the families of any of the victims of this accident it is re-assuring that a similar occurence should not happen.

Aviation is an un-natural business and there is no way to reduce the number of accidents to zero - even were aircraft never to leave the stand there would still be weather related incidents and ground handling staff would continue to drive into them.

It is easy to point the finger of blame. The air traffic system would be completely different if it were run by controllers,or pilots, or systems people, or, as is the case, by politicians: almost all decisions are made retro-activally, not pro-activally, and the hoops keep lining up.

Condolences to ALL concerned.
I read (for the first time) with interest through all the posts.
I pressume at least 80% is from ATC's themselves so esxcuse me if I say a bit one - sided. (I understand if you back your buddy) - I have also "killed" a pax before.

My point : I think it was Monday night - I saw a program on Discovery Channel (might be National Geographic).

Let me be honest - even I was "psyched up" after the program. Discovery Channel played judge and jury in that program condamming Skyguide and all the links that lead to the fatal mistakes made by them, and eventually the ATC and the pilot's.

All I am saying if I have lost a wife and 2 kids and saw this program (and have not too much to live for in a clapped out place) - I might have visited the ATC's address.

A lot of you know me (so I am not hiding behind a username) but I strongly suggest that you guys see the program as they clearly had inside info. It looked as if it was shot inside a Skyguide building.

But every detail was there - from the telephone system that the ATC gave permission to switch off to the main radar .. to the ATC next to him that went for a break and the screen he did not watch. ... and I do not say it is corrrect !

If it is a lot of duff gen Discovery channel (maybe Nat Geo) must take a lot of blame !!!

Once again ... if I was a disturbed person nothing to live for after loosing a family - who knows - the thought of visiting his address might have crossed my mind as well.

PS: Where can I read more about TCAS procedures as I know nothing about it. MUST you follow what it shouts at you above any ATC command ?

Sorry I am not English - hope it makes sence what I am trying to say.

RIP all. :sad:

God Bless you all that remains behind flying and gaurding the skies...

Yeah Guns I suppose I might also have visited the ATC's house. Who knows?

The sad thing is that we all know that the poor bloke is not the only one to carry any blame. He had a zillion systems to back him up and when those systems fail he is alone. In those days prior to the midair, the techs never told you what they were up to, except if they fiddled with the radar. So he didnt know that the half the systems weren't operable!!

As for Nat Geographics and the Discovery Channel: Very interesting and often very sensational "documentaries" but not always acurate. In fact, hardly ever acurate. If they were acurate, the programs would be boring and nobody would subscribe......

The memorial service was held this afternoon......very sad, but at least it gave everyone the chance to say good bye to their friend and show support and solidarity to his wife and help her carry and cope with the grief. She is also an ATC by the way.

If we pilots screw up with fatal consequences, we're either also dead or facing long prison sentences. Must give pause for thought for those in the ATC profession, I shouldn't wonder. If I were the Russian gentleman currently languishing in a ZRH remand cell, I'd be feeling like justice had been served. Two aircraft, same level, same frequency, converging tracks, middle of the night. There simply is no systemic excuse for that level of dereliction of duty and professional incompetence. The guy screwed up, and he's paid for it with his life.

Controversial statement? Perhaps, but consider the impact of our decisions and how they effect the lives of those who depend on us for the safety of their loved ones.

Berenger Saunier,

Pretty simplistic view you've got there. There were several factors contributing to the crash, to weigh them is the job of the investigators, everything else remains speculation.
Just a few notes: No TCAS, no crash. If Russian crew follows TCAS RA, no crash.
And remember: TCAS is a last resort tool. Follow it, inform the ATCO that you do, and everything's fine.

Besides, suggesting that the killer's action was in some way justified leaves me lost for words...

:(

I merely hoped to suggest that were they your wife and two children plummeting to earth over Bodensee, Spuds, your attitude might be somewhat different. I landed at FDH just before the collision on July 1st 2002 and so my interest is acute. Your comment about TCAS is way off, I'm afraid. We of the west are trained to obey TCAS no matter what. Russian aviators, consummate professionals in my experience (both civil and military), are trained to obey ATC instructions as a resolution of last resort. Besides, who among us with desperate ATC screaming into our headsets "descend, descend now" would ignore that and obey and TCAS RA to climb?

Simplistic Spuds? Have another think. JUSTICE.

In addition to: 'No TCAS, no crash. If Russian crew follows TCAS RA, no crash.' :

If Russian Captain's decision to follow TCAS was not over-ruled by check Captain sitting behind him, no crash.

If other ATCO not away from workstation taking a break, no crash.

If PN not put under unfair pressure to agree to allow telephone engineers to work that night (after his shift had begun), inadvertantly taking down the phone system so that the system actually scrambled the number PN was dialling when calling for assistance to handover A/C to next centre, no crash.

If incoming call system working so that other ATCers trying to warn him of conflict get through, no crash.

If Skyguide's conflict alert system working, no crash.

More than anything he was the victim of very bad luck. He was not without blame - he should have called his colleague back when it got busy - he should not have tried to do two jobs at once - but even then he was merely trying to be a 'team player' by allowing his colleague the break. To blame him, and him alone, and to suggest 'justice has been served' by this apalling act is indeed very simplistic and distasteful in the extreme. Having said that, none of my family members died in this accident and I might feel differently if they had. In which case I would not be in a good position to hand out 'justice'.

Listen Berenger,

Don't get me started!
I was at the memorial service today, the widow was there as well. This terrible event is incomprehensible and unjustifiable!

With TCAS, ATCOs' instructions can't be a last resort tool!
We don't know if a crew follows RAs, unless we're told!
As soon as we are told, we're out of the picture, until separation has been reestablished.
It can't be that in some parts of the world, pilots have to follow TCAS, and in other parts, they have to follow ATC instructions.
The 757 descended according to the RA. The controller wasn't told until after 25 secs. Within those 25 secs he told the TU154 to descend, he was in charge of providing separation. His decision was, to clear the TU for descend. Had he known that the 757 was descending according to RA, he would have acted differently. Therefore I reiterate: Follow TCAS no matter what AND TELL US!

Sounds like you had a dreadful day, Spuds. You make my point for me, though. Its all about training. Previous to the Lake Constance midair, Russian aircrew were trained to obey ATC instructions over TCAS RA'S. Since the accident however, inverse procedures apply. You must understand, Spuds, that for Russian aviators, TCAS is a relatively new innovation. Russian Air Traffic Controllers tend not to engineer midair collisions, after all.

That either crew were put nose to nose, same level, in airspace that attracts the highest air navigation charges on earth is beyond comprehension. PN accepted responsibility for the sector, and regardless of the mitigating circumstances, PN is responsible for the collision in his airspace.

No one likes death, SPUDS, but Air Traffic Controllers are, in my opinion, blissfully unaware of the impact of their conduct in air-conditioned comfort at €8000 (netto) per month.

The ZRH incident on Tuesday provides a timely analysis of action versus accountability.

I'm sorry for your loss, Spuds.....and for the loss of Russian children on their way to Spanish sunshine for the holiday of a lifetime.

Monsieur Berenger Saunier,
You talk about JUSTICE in bold letters but you obviously are another person that does not know what he is talking about.

In the Western world (since you want to make a difference) you are presumed innocent until you are proven guilty . The final collision report is not yet out and the court case has not started yet either.
Who can assume PN was guilty of anything and decide to pass a death penalty on him , and execute the sentence himself ?
Is that your idea of JUSTICE (in bold letters) ?

You said you landed in FDH just prior the collision, were you by chance one of the pilot of the AEF 1135 ?
Because the main reason for allowing one person ond duty a ZRH was based on the fact that airports served by ZRH are closed at night. Someone requested a derogation for AEF and one of the main reasons why PN was overworked was that FDH unsheduled ( late ) inbound .

To paraphrase Wedge : No AEF inbound FDH at that time : no crash...


Gunship :
Since the collision ICAO had a frenzy of meetings and the procedures are now revised ( published since Nov 2003 ) now it clearly says that in case of contradiction between an ATC clearance and an RA , pilots should follow the RA. ( this was not mentionned as such before )
Also whatever you do you should never manoeuvre in the opposite sense of an RA ( that was always the case ) as there is at the moment a known flaw in the TCAS logic that will make things worse if you do so.
If you want to know more PM me.

With all due respect, ATC Voyeur, I know exactly what I'm talking about. A question for you, though. Do you, as a professional ATC (presuming your affectation equates to reality) accept the consequences of your professional conduct...especially when you screw up? Sat there in air-conditioned bliss at ground level, do you presume to insulate yourself and your colleagues from the consequences of manifest incompetence?

The notion of justice is the glue that binds our society together. It applies equally to you, as it does to we of the air.....as PN has found out.

Where I live, Justice is delivered by a judge after a trial in front of 12 of your peers. Did this happen here?

This was vigilantism at its worst. A pure "mob-mentality". While I understand from reading various newspapers that this gentleman lost his entire family on the flight which is sad beyond belief, that doesn't give him the right to play Judge, Jury and Executioner....nor will it ever.

What the controller did or didn't do in this case is not the issue. We have an individual here who decided in his own mind who was to blame and took actions that will always be irreversible. THAT IS WRONG...and always will be !!!

Newarksmells

ATC Watcher:

Since the collision ICAO had a frenzy of meetings and the procedures are now revised ( published since Nov 2003 ) now it clearly says that in case of contradiction between an ATC clearance and an RA , pilots should follow the RA. ( this was not mentionned as such before )
Also whatever you do you should never manoeuvre in the opposite sense of an RA ( that was always the case ) as there is at the moment a known flaw in the TCAS logic that will make things worse if you do so.
If you want to know more PM me.

Tx ATC Watcher.

Ok you see that is one of my points was that in the program (right or wrong) - The ATC (RIP) was made the culprit and it all was filmed in your control room ?

They also made us believe that HE was the one that gave the order to repair the phones and HE was the one that said they can take the main radar offline.

Once again - I am the first to say - wait for the official report but we talk about a program being shot inside the facility and they made as if he was the culprit.

Must admit - they clearly showed the conflict between the pilot and the "test pilot" !

Wish I can see it now afterwards what we talked about as I did not even know about the incident till I saw it earlier this week !

Berenger Russian Air Traffic Controllers tend not to engineer midair collisions, after all. Perhaps you'd be kind enough to go into a little more detail about what you meant when you said this. I'm sensitive to the possibility that you don't mean it exactly as written and I would like to be as clear as possible on your intent.

With all due respect, ATC Voyeur...presuming your affectation equates to reality... Again, just so we're clear before we continue, what you mean by this is that the respect you're according ATC Watcher (that which you believe is due him) is none. Is this what you intended?

Just want to be clear...

Thanks,

Dave

Russian Air traffic Controllers tend not to engineer midair collisions, after all

August 11 1979, Near Donetsk in the Ukraine, midair collision of two Aerflot jets (TU134), 178 killed, ATC error.


http://www.super70s.com/Super70s/Tech/Aviation/Disasters/79-08-11(Aeroflot).asp

Nuff said.

126.7

Yeah Guns I suppose I might also have visited the ATC's house. Who knows?



Lo 126,7

Maybe I should disqualify my statements as I think "african".

An eye for an eye is as normal as eating and drinking.

Once again I condemn the killing - but somehow I can "understand" .

I "killed" a pax. Not my fault at all. I was last in the que to see her body being put into the pack of a VC 10 and flown back to England.

The guilty feeling nearly killed me. I only asked to see her grieved parents or talked to them. They denied me that.

I was completely cleared of all blame but I felt like a "killer" for a long while afterwards - believe me. Guilt is bad !

Maybe their denail to see them made me stronger and the guilt feeling is gone but did this happen with Africans i would have left the country - promise you !

On that matter - dunno if you guys know about the B 727 accident of Benin. The Lebanese owners is still in "hiding" in ... they know how Africa works .. sorry I know your incident was not Africa and maybe I am well of my point now ?

Whoa, whoa, whoa...

I think Guns meant "condemn" rather than "condone."

(Once again I condone the killing... )

English ain't his first language.

Tx av8boy (and thanks EDIT button) ;)

Berenger

Thats the most offensive sh1t I've seen on this thread since 69somethings obnoxious post. If you are involved in professional aviation in any way then I hope you think long and hard about your rash comments. The collision was, as most accidents are, caused by a long chain of events. When the situation finally manifested itself upon the poor ATCO he was left with a 50:50 decision on who to climb and who to descend. Had he told the DHL to descend we'd have heard nothing more of that night.

You talk with sickening smugness of 'justice being served'. I can only hope that you never face a situation where the systems have failed around you and you are left with nothing more than 50:50 odds on safety or catastrophe. If you are a pilot then you are cosseted by the knowledge that you won't have to live with the consequences of your wrong decision. I make no apologies for saying that those of us who live in civilised societies find the murder of PN absolutely abhorrent. If you feel otherwise then I hope to God that I never have the misfortune to find myself in your loathesome company.

G'day guys and gals,
Although I didn't know the ATC involved personally, I can tell you this news has devested and alarmed his workmates/friends from all over the world. The ATC grapevine at its best. I think we should stop, however, and have a look at why this thread was started. To relay the sad news of P's death. How about we stop pointing fingers and laying blame and just say:

Farewell. Rest in peace.

If I were his wife reading this I would be heartbroken. Hasn't everyone said enough yet? Yes, we owe the deceased the truth, but for God's sake, just wait until the findings are out. Then feel free to say what you want about who you want. Until then, respect people's feelings. If you want to say something nasty, start another thread. Nuf said.

NFR.

Beringer

You are way off the mark, and gratuitously offensive, into the bargain.

Your dogmatic attitude demonstrates all that seems wrong in aviation, and your blind defence of all things East is illogical.

As someone else said, this accident was a failure of the system.

Guilt, if any, will be apportioned after the facts have been collated and sifted by the investigators. Until then EVERYONE involved has a presumption of innocence and NO_ONE disserves to be singled out by a vigilante and murdered.

You are a disgrace to our profession.

There is a grieving family in Switzerland, which has lost its husband and father. There is NO escuse for this, and my thoughts are with them.

I grieve also for the suspect's loss, but will never condone murder as a solution.

Beringer says :

Its all about training. Previous to the Lake Constance midair, Russian aircrew were trained to obey ATC instructions over TCAS RA'S. Since the accident however, inverse procedures apply. You must understand, Spuds, that for Russian aviators, TCAS is a relatively new innovation.


Do I have it right (as I wish to sort this out in my own mind.)

Was there two different sets of rules before the fatal crash ?

If so ... why?

Just another point (as I said I have no Int flying experience).

Why do the controllers and pilots speak Swiss / German while the Internationally we are supposed to speak English ?

Was that not also a complication in the accident that the Russians could not follow other traffic ? I would be lost myself in the Swiss / German :uhoh:

Gunship,

We don't use swiss german on the frequency, only english.

As to why there were two sets of rules concerning the use of TCAS, you should ask ICAO...

Spuds McKenzie :

Gunship,

We don't use swiss german on the frequency, only english.

As to why there were two sets of rules concerning the use of TCAS, you should ask ICAO...

Thanks for clearing that SM. I am still confused then as the heading says : "transcript of original tape recording" But I see now your telephone conversations (in German / Swiss) was also added ... sorry I see now - tx for clearing it up !!

I got my duff - gen from this link that was quoted somewhere in this thread :http://aviation-safety.net/cvr/atc_20020701.pdf



:hmm:

Cheers,

Gunns

my sincerest condolences to the ATCO and his family.I have the highest regard for the Swiss ATCOs and i think,as so many others have said,that this sort of thing is so tragic because obviously they had already gone through so much.

I hope that the authorities catch whoever did this.even if it was done by a relative of a pax,it is utterly senseless.:(

Further to one of the controllers reiterating that pilots deviating from a clearance in conformance with a TCAS RA should notify ATC so that ATC doesn't issue conflicting instructions: there has been discussion of automatic RA notification to ATC from TCAS.

Certainly if the controller had known that TCAS had taken over, he would have shut up and started filling out the airprox forms.

My preference is for automatic notification of TCAS RAs to ATC since the aircrews are in a suddenly high workload situation and don't really have time to discuss their clearance.

Beringer.

Your view lacks compassion, both for the ATCO and his family.

From a technical view point: Complete safety means nobody flies. Error will always exist in human endevour and it is not possible to run an ATC system without some danger. That is why such systems must be designed and run in a manner which deliberately offsets the "hoops" to the greatest degree possible. On the night in question the system was exposed, mainly, by management decisions that lined up the hoops. Those decisions were not the responsibility of the ATCO and whilst he was involved in the system failure, it is not his fault.

I think your remarks might not assist here. Peace man.

Point 4

Guardian Article on Suspect (http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1158361,00.html)

It might be simplistic, but is there no way that TCAS could be engineered to broadcast these advisories so that the ATC people know what is happening, especially if the crew are not having time to make the radio broadcast and hope that the frequency is clear.

Don't think this is science fiction luoto, already back in 1996 NASA did testing with advanced ATC systems that may very well transmit such information to the screens of the controllers.

Would require some modifications though and as these will cost money they may never jump across the "cost-benefit-fence" unless we have two A380 colliding over a major city because a controller gave other advisories and a crew would not have complied with their TCAS alert...

Luoto :
it is technically rather easy to downlink RAs, as the RAs are already broadcasted on the Mode S to co-ordinate with the other TCAS(s). To receive this you only need a fixed antenna relatively cheap.
But this pose serious ( legal ) problems. Because what the controller will see on his scope is an RA being issued by a system, not the fact that the pilot is following the RA. There are also short false RAs that are being transmitted but not resulting in an audio resolution in the cockpit, and also not all aircraft are TCAS equiped.
Downlinking RAs will solve some problems but create new ones as well. anyway it is being seriously studied by Eurocontrol and already tested in Japan.

Gunship :
there were not really 2 sets of rules on TCAS adherence before July 2002. Just the fact that an RA stands for Resolution ADVISORY and it was always up to the pilot in command to follow it or not.
( Visual aquisition of the intruder was even mentionned as a possible reason not to follow an RA ) Also some other aviation rules said that a pilot should always follow an ATC clearance unless in emergency, and an RA was not described as an emercency.
In this confusion some airlines and /or some State authorities delivered different instructions to their pilots.
But it is all relatively straightened now.

Reference the Guardian article.
A good illustration of what a wrong sentence can do in some minds :.
_____________________________________________________
quote :
He had wrongly instructed the Bashkirian airlines plane to descend, even though its onboard warning equipment told it to climb. The pilot followed the controller's instructions and ploughed into a DHL cargo plane that was descending in accordance with its own collision-avoiding equipment.
__________________________________________________

Everything is correct except the word " wrongly ". P.N. issued the clearance BEFORE anyone had announced an RA, as the RAs came AFTER the clerance... A world of a difference for us , ( as PN was issuing a correct clearance at that time ) but not to the general public who beleive what is in the news and condemmend him.

I again deplore that the names are mentionned. What does this bring ? More problems for the relatives staying behind , that`s all...

I start to dislike journalists .

ATC Watcher,

Very informative post.
Re TCAS, the Japan DC10/B747 incident from January 2001 springs to mind, where the crew of the B747 (I think) decided to ignore the RA and do it visually instead. Turned out it wasn't really the right decision, since it resulted in a very close encounter (10m, I repeat: 10m seperation!).
One of the recommendations of the japanese investigators was for ICAO to clarify the use of TCAS.
As we know, nothing happened in that respect until July 1st 2002...

Though aviation marked its 100th aniversary it seems we still only learn painfully from event to event and continue to follow on Murphy's track.

This sucks. - Big Time!

Now, after this obsulete midair we finally get more precise ICAO standarts dealing with TCAS. So when will all aircraft be equipped with such a life saving device, which clearly proved it is worth its pricetag on numerous occasions in daily operation?

Probably we will sooner see all automobiles equipped with similar distance alert systems, as we have seen airbags becoming standart there, then it would become mandatory for anything flying to have TCAS on board and functioning at all times.

The really sad part here is the murder of the controller. But maybe it will mark another 'wake up call' for those, specifically in charge of decisionmaking and implementation in safety relevant areas, so that one desperate husband or wife won't wait in front of their door, after a fatal accident entirely wiped out another family.

Times are getting more violent these days, and this may happen everywhere, anytime.

Skyguide now have a massive image problem, and it's going to get worse with the forthcoming publication of the report into the collision over the Lake of Constance. I wonder how long it will be before the MBA consultants that so many Swiss companies seem to depend on, with their talk of 'downsides, benchmarking, core values and corporate identity' will advise them to change their name. After all they've done it with monotonous regularity in the recent past - from Radio Schweiz to Swisscontrol to Skyguide - with all the associated costs of 'rebranding'. No wonder Zurich airport has the highest landing fees and passenger taxes in the world. It also now has the worst delay statistics in Europe. My suggestion for a new name would be 'Extraordinary'. It matches 'Unique' and reflects the extraordinary fact that ATC controllers in Zurich have watched no less than five airliners disappear from their radar screens to impact the ground with fatal results over the last 14 years. One of their principal spokespersons on this thread goes by the name of 'Spuds McKenzie'. If I remember correctly this was a one-eyed dog that was ditched as a slogan by the Budweiser brewery some time ago for being commercially irrelevant - rather a suitable name for a Skyguide controller don't you think?

694c,

Did you say something?


:cool:

Condolences to the family and friends.

But - come on you guys, you keep on saying it yourselves
- WAIT UNTIL THE OFFICIAL REPORT COMES OUT.

These discussions and arguments are no good for anybody - no matter how much you pretend to know, or how close to the event you were.

Even I am embarassed about some of the things you professionals have been saying - without basis of fact.

694c,

you seem to be running out of valid arguments. Usually that is when people start direct personal attacks. :yuk:

Whatever grudge you may have against skyguide or ZRH or Switzerland or all of the above, kindly refrain from just blasting all over the place.

Just to clear up one point here - the TCAS issues instructions to both aircraft involved in a confliction. The ATC may do if they have time - or only to one of the aircraft.

Disobeying TCAS can well lead to an escalation of the situation.

If nothing else comes from this tragic mess, let us at least learn that TCAS is the master. That is how it was conceived - and if it goes off with an RA, there is precious little time to question its motives.

694c and Berenger Saunier:

This forum is often useful and interesting for exchanging ideas and learning from one another. You two, however, come across as offensive bigots.

For the rest of you:

Let me state a few things. The controllers at Zuerich (Swiss, Danish and the other nationalities) are very, very good at what they do. The airspace is busy and complex and there are many problems for which, though not of their making, the controllers have to compensate.

There have been several accidents over the years and the reasons for these are many and varied. It is accepted best practice in modern aviation to try to understand all the parts of a chain that allowed an incident to occur. Only then, through knowledge, education and reviewing working practices can we move on towards the goal of improving safety. Apportioning blame, whether fairly or not, is not helpful in this regard. I think that there are some issues that maybe Skyguide management needs to review (introduction of reporting schemes?, establishing an independent safety regulator?) and the ridiculous situation that has been allowed to develop over noise regulations needs to be sensibly addressed (both the Swiss and German authorities are at fault here and it is a subject worthy of it’s own forum). But please do not attack or criticise any of the controllers. Believe me when I say that they would more than stand up with the very best in the world.

One issue that really angers me here is the way identifying information was released about PN. The initial press releases by Skyguide were in my opinion clumsy (citicising the Russian pilot’s english et cetera). Skyguide had a responsibility to PN as an employee that it failed in. The day after the controller who was on duty at the time of the Crossair crash in 2001 was interviewed by the Air Accident Investigators, details that should have been confidential were in the Swiss newspapers. Why did this happen? The controller concerned didn’t talk to the press, so who did? Skyguide management? The Air Accident Investigators?

Controllers are sometimes under a lot of pressure. Berenger’s comments about air conditioned comfort are outrageous! All controllers are professionals. Every day at work is a matter of pride and conscience. Expedition and safety are not easily compatible but we do try our best ALWAYS, although sometimes under not the best of circumstances eg equipment failings, poor management practices.

The standard of journalism here in the UK (I can only assume it is the same in the rest of the world) relating to this murder has been very sloppy indeed. I refer to statements already made on PPRUNE in this regard. Every article that I have read or listened to has been full of factual errors and incorrect statements. If we as controllers and pilots did our job so badly there would be a great number of accidents. Air travel is as safe as it is through our professionalism.

Now, I am off to work.

First I would like to express my deep sympathy for the familiy of our murdered colleague.

The discussion until now covered a lot of aspects. However, there is one generic question I would like to bring up - not expecting an answer!
As already mentioned it's the system which has to blamed not the individual (swiss cheese model!)
But wherever human beings are involved, they make mistakes. Whether they create the system or form part of it. A human not making mistakes is not a human.
Can it be that an idividual not acting negligent or on purpose making a mistake can be sentenced for that - I mean sentenced for being human? I know this is not only possible but happens in reality.
The reason for that is, from my point of view, that puplic needs one (a face, a name,..) found guilty. Its somehow political. Concerning this issue society hasen't changed very much since 2000 years (or even longer). It's a matter of fact and therefor I do not hope that any major changes will occur in the near and middle future.
And it will always be the individual from the front-line who will be victimised.
Every ATCO and pilot has to live with the knowledge of his own human deficiency. Coping with that requires a strong nature.

The only thing remaining is to wish all of us good luck for the future!

dg

Doubtful guest

You make a valid point.

If we choose to operate our ATC system in a way that fails dangerous in the event of human error then our ethos is flawed. If the individuals who work such a system are then going to be held accountable for their human fallibility then an unreasonable burden is placed upon us.

Every time I put a headset on I control in a way that offsets the hoops. I have upset some people along the way who see me as overly prudent but it is not my job to make up for the lack of ATCOs, runways, terminals, stands and airspace or be driven by airlines' commercial pressure. I refuse to allow myself to be exposed by the "push, push" culture.

I once heard a saying that went something like... "Profit is sanity, excess is vanity"

Rings true I think.

Point 4

Many here seem to have a private axe to grind, especially 649c - a failed controller possibly? BTW the Bud dog was a pitbull with both eyes.

As ATC Watcher has pointed out, PN;s instruction was given before the TCAS avoidance alert occurred. Accepting this as being correct, from that point on he was also just a "passenger"

By their sensationalist, irresponsible reporting of the controller's identity and address, the media is an accessory to his murder and I hope that those involved are prosecuted to the full extent of the law.

Lonmore makes "sensationalist.." reporting of the media's reporting... I thought the reporting had been, prior to the incident, the person's initials, nationality and town. That is still quite restrained standards by other norms. It goes a bit too far to blame the media for being partly responsible.
Anyway the point I was wondering was about the liability for controllers of their actions, whether negligent or not at a given time (i.e. accident due to well accidents happen vs crash due to controller reading the newspaper to pick an extreme!).
AND NO, FOR THE BENEFIT OF THE FEW PPRUNERS UNABLE TO SEE THINGS CLEARLY THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION OF WHAT HAPPENED AT ZRH but it highlights that software companies seemingly can exclude liability if their software eats your accounts and kills your business so what is the real difference here.

Lon more

You have to be careful about babies and bathwater. While, of course, it was more than regretable that this murderer was helped to find his victim by what was published in the media, if you make the media criminally responsible for the actions of every nutter who reads them they would end up reporting nothing but grain harvests and five-year plans.

There has been talk of local newspapers not publishing pictures of children (following sporting success, 1st communion or whatever) for fear of stirring up the paedophiles.

Is that the world we want to build for ourselves? Or would we rather tackle the real criminals rather than taking out the soft targets?

Timothy

Timothy and luoto,

I think what Lon is trying to say is that the media had no right to print any of the persons details - nor was it of any public interest or benefit.

It cannot even be compared to a criminal case where a person is either wanted or has already been arrested.

I defy one person to demonstrate to me anything positive that could have come from publishing the details of the person involved.

To say that the media should not report because there is nothing to report is also short sighted. What the media should do is be sure of its facts and only report what is known to be true (*WMD not withstanding!), of course sometimes we get the news and pictures as they do - but rather than trying to interpret it perhaps they could just report the facts rather than come to their own, quite often, ill informed conclusions. How many times have you sat as an aviation professional (or semi) and cringed when an aviation expert on TV has given their views with little or no basis of fact.

Is that the world we want to build for ourselves? Or would we rather tackle the real criminals rather than taking out the soft targets?

When was the last time you flew in a commercial aircraft? And when was the last time you flew to the US? It is my humble opinion that the terrorists have already won esp wrt commercial aviation in the US, no queueing near the toilet, no flight deck visits, no metal cutlery - what about the other things people carry on board?

When you change the way you live or work to meet a threat that you cant even find or define - then you are already beaten.

TrafficTraffic: I do not know Swiss media law so cannot comment on the specifics in THAT CASE and certainly until a person is found guilty of the crime I think ordinarily they should not be named anyway (I support media freedom, even though many argue that such a thing is not correct). I watched the UK "The Day Today" or whatever the programme was called that aired in 2003 showing transport chaos over the UK and culminating in a crash over LHR. I know it was fiction but they named the ATC there and later acquitted her or was it not guilty. I think that that programme was said to be well researched on the whole YET in that case, maybe like the ZRH case, the person should not have been named, even in part.

There is a problem when reporting cases where you CANNOT report, like a rape case victim, yet sometimes the identity comes out through jigsaw identification. One paper says she was a teacher, another says she teaches maths, another says she was a blonde lady, another says she had not been working at the school for a long time and then when you look at all the stories you can often see who it was.

I think however the nationality of the controller is justified reporting in case it emerged that perhaps the person did not have correct language training or whatnot (NOT SUGGESTING THAT WAS THE CASE FOR THE DECEASED DANE).

"I defy one person to demonstrate to me anything positive that could have come from publishing the details of the person involved."

By your same tone, what at all positive came from even writing about the incident ?

You know, many of the leaks that people here complain about come from their own industry peers who get "retainers" or "drinkies" from grateful journalists, in house PR spinners trying to make the best of the situation, industry consultants who are boosting little knowledge to get greater leverage and prowess in the media, rivals or even well intentioned people thinking they are helping. Not all the media can be painted black just because we disagree with something.

I would agree that you may not blame the media for this specific drama. Very likely the family members of the victims will get names anyway through their legal proceedings.

It is interesting though that specially such law firms and lawyers who sometimes even 'parachute'
right into family meetings, while they are still getting counseled by care teams, try to focus the attention to the monetary aspects of such a disaster. They almost always promise Millions of $$
and use terms like "justice for wrongdoing" etc. Then, after first carefull analysis by the official investiagtion boards the very same laywers are nowhere to be seen until finally they come up with the offer of the insurance company. This may been then considerably lower then originally promised.

And this in turn can lead to such freakin actions very easily. Have in mind that according to common practize in Europe and legal interpretation you can only claim compensation for your actual economical damage. If parents lose their children through an accident they will not be able to proof any sort of economical damage. Same if adult children loose their (retired) parents.

US is completely different, specially because of pain and suffering compensation and punitive damages. But Europe does not acknowledge this. Further local living standarts of the victim have to be taking into consideration for any compensation. So, what is the "value" of a child in Bashkiria (?!)...??? What would be the financial compensation for a beloved wife over there? -

- As cynical as this may sound, this is one of the main issues in such a case and it may as well have played a role as only victims families have to go through this and it may further fog their brain and emotions.

PorcoRosso

It appears that Berenger may have already retired to his garden to await the visit from the family of the marshaller, etc...

I am not sure if RA downlink will solve all the problems but I think it is good that Eurocontrol, as ATC Watcher pointed out, is looking into the subject.
They have a website
www.eurocontrol.int/ra-downlink
with some information and a short questionnaire seeking opinions from pilots and controllers.

Luoto, I disagree with what you said about nationality.

With, say, less than 20 Danes working TWR/APP or ACC in Zuerich, by disclosing nationality (let alone releasing other details) Skyguide made it far easier for the media to identify the controller concerned.

There is no reason to expose a controller to the media circus. Any judgement should be from the results of a fair investigation NOT poorly informed sensationalism.

Firstly;

My sincere condolences to all those who have suffered through this unfortunate collection of circumstances. Life as we know it is more fragile than we often would like to believe and the protection thereof should always be paramount in our missions, whatever those missions might be.

With regards to the cause of the accident;

I am firmly of the opinion (as others seem to agree) that the system as a whole is really to blame. That is to say that the rate at which the traffic levels are increasing is rather phenominal. In the old days, ATC's were expected to identify and resolve all the conflicts on their own, there was no MTCD, STCA, TCAS, SSR, CFU etc....... There were fewer restrictions on working hours, traffic levels on a frequency at any given time...

If it were one of those controllers working at the time, we would probably not be sitting here today discussing this issue.

The problem IMHO, is that because we have strived to use technology wherever we can to improve safety, we have reduced the the emphasis on individual controller abilities. I am not saying that the ATC in this instance was less than capable (OF THE STANDARD TO WHICH HE WAS HELD).

When the system relies on technology to replace the (previously) basic skills of ATC's, it is incumbent upon that system to ensure that the redundancy levels are such that the individual(s) will NEVER be left without them.

ATC's are working less aircraft in smaller sectors to reduce risk, coverage area and frequency congestion, these are all the result of increased traffic levels. It is an understandable solution/reaction. Part of the problem may well be that the "Seat of your pants" ATC's of old, that are now running the show, do not realise how much less equipped the modern ATC's are when it comes to skills.

The technology is neccessary to keep the traffic moving, that is not in doubt, but if the system cannot ensure 100% redundancy, then the ATC's must be held to a standard which allows them to reasonably handle their worst nightmare when it comes down to the wire.



Invictus

The European controllers associations and Unions received today a long letter from the Swiss controllers asking for a small symbolic action during P.N. fumeral , next Friday at 1200.

Many Airports and Control centres in Europe are expecting to do something ( like a minute of silence on the R/T or a pause in the take offs )at that time.

They also ask not to name the controller and respect this wish.

Dunno Invictus, "the good ol' days", if they ever existed, had a different set of issues. For one, it was unlikely that all aircraft would be at exactly where they're supposed to be (which reduces the big sky considerably). For another, there are a lot more aircraft in the sky.
Whenever you have people doing a complicated task, "tunnel vision"/task saturation is a threat. For that reason, experience, usually experience from significant loss of life, has built in redundancies, and these have been designed, not as crutches, but as "wake up calls". You don't train people to rely on those warnings; you train them to avoid them, and if they happen, to heed them. Any warning system that triggers on trivial events (e.g., Internet Explorer security warnings) is useless.

In this case, a series of improbable failures occurred. Some of them disturb me in terms of how privatization and ATC management runs in Europe. From the BFU preliminary report, it appears that what happened to the ATCO was a classic example of how task saturation can be like drowning in a half-inch of water.

Ultimately, however, ATC isn't enough, and the two aircraft in question carried a failsafe system for when ATC fails. The Tu154 crew ignored a TCAS RA and elected to follow the ATCO instead. Yes, it's a sudden emergency three hours into a flight, in the middle of the night, through quiet airspace, but for whatever reason (training, disposition), if the BFU preliminary findings are correct, they made the wrong call.

I wouldn't exonerate the media either. It's very easy to explain the accident as an ATCO alone at the post, with dead phone lines and a warning system offline. And Xenophobia can only add journalistic fuel to the flames. It doesn't take much of a stretch either. Anyone else remember a BOAC Trident that "failed to yield" to an ascending jet at a crossing in Yugoslavia? The public bias in Eastern Europe is already going to be for discrimination against them in Western European countries, and it's going to be founded on centuries of mutual discrimination. All they have to do is play up the "It's standard procedure to ignore machines and listen to humans" angle (much along the same lines as "being a good pilot, he ignored his instruments and went by his own senses" resonates with the general publics), imply some bias, and all of a sudden, the ATCO is the convenient fall guy. He didn't deserve this.

Eggs P. I don't want to focus on this case and personalise it or make wrongful judgements. However you assume that any company at the centre of a "problem" would necessarily want to keep its doors closed and stop information leaking that might divert, even a little bit, the attention from the corporate office/rs. I AM NOT saying this is the case here.
Look to motives. Why do many people post many messages on PPRUNE... what do they hope to achieve by doing. That's life sadly.

Heard on BLL Atis time 1145z that they requested 1 min. radio silence on the twr and app. freq. Guess they did that a lot of places today....

Was the R/T radio-silence observed respectfully today where possible ?

Firstly, DingerX... well said!

Secondly, Luoto:

Actually what I was tying to say was that Skyguide may have been too ready to disclose information at times. Whether this was out of a wish to divert attention from the company itself or merely a clumsy press office, I would not like to say.

My view is that no personally identifying information should have been released. I would argue that a company has a duty of care towards its employees. In ATC those employees are carrying out tasks which inherently entail some degree of risk.

As has already been stated: "to err is human". However professional we strive to be, mistakes will on occaision be made.

Commercial or other pressures may also influence working practices and affect the overall system. For instance staffing levels or equipment standards determined by accountants and engineers rather than the controllers who are at the "sharp end". The possible examples are endless.

Aside from gross negligence, I believe that human or systematic error should be covered by corporate responsibilty. That is my personal view. The true legal situation may be different. Professionally I am concerned about individual controllers "carrying the can" for what should be blamed upon a company.

Like you, I do not wish to enter into a debate over the details of this particular event. The official report is due out in March. That may be a more appropriate time.

I posted on this thread after taking offence when the controllers in Zuerich were criticised by 694c and Berenger Saunier.

What happened to PN was terrible and I wish to pass on my sincere condolences to his family, friends and colleagues.

ghost-rider,

Look in the ATC issue forum to see the actions taken today.