Polar Air Cargo: Detroit to Rome?

[zerozero]

I heard a rumor that Polar is starting Detroit-Rome soon.

I might be looking for a jumpseat in late May.

I'd appreciate any info.
Thanks.

[kpiko3]

Could this possibly ferry through Prestwick like most of the Polar flights?

kpiko3

[Beaver Driver]

Here comes another money loser that Atlas will be paying for.

[Waazuup!]

Stop blaming Polar Beav.

Atlas in itself is a money loser!!!:sad: :8 :{

Hahahahaha

:yuk: Atlas.

[B74flyer]

Quote from March issue of Air Cargo World.

"Atlas has been held together by revenue from military charters and from Polar, the forwarder-focused international 747 operator that Atlas rescued when Polar was near demise several years ago".

Wake up Beav........................

[Beaver Driver]

....And Ericksons latest voice mail indicates a net increase in SCHEDULED block hours with a net DECREASE in scheduled block hour revenue. If you figure this makes Polar the profit generator, you are not smart enough to be in the position you are in.

I am not sure how you figure Polar can be profitable with less than 60% load factors. Get a grip. Listen to the company reports with an open mind. Polar is the money loser here. Can you imaging having to pay the fuel for a 747 with an average load factor of less than 60%???

My guess is the break even load factors are in the 75-85% range. Something that Polar has NEVER come even close to; not once in their history. Air Cargo World assumes Polar is actually paying Atlas for the aircraft leases, the ground services, the crew hotels and transportation, as well as the flying Atlas is actually doing for Polar.

The income statements and SEC filings, along with the BK filings reveal that this indeed NOT true. I stand by my statements. Without Polar, Atlas would be a viable, going concern. Polar is the money pit.

BD

[Waazuup!]

Just Leave it to Beaver, to come up with this.

You are absolutely right that Polar is the money pit simply because Atlas is calling the shots.

You blame Polar, but Polar is Atlas therefore making Atlas the money pit.

Look up Money pit in a dictionary and you will see the words Atlas Air Worlwide Holdings.


Both companies will soon be gone out of business.

Are you Cato by any chance.
ahahahahahahahaha







:ok: :ok: :{ :{ :} :D :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

[fr8box]

So, it's the usual with the Atlas and Polar folks. Atlas blames Polar for their troubles and Polar blames Atlas. I guess we'll probably find out in the near future.....the last company standing will probably have been the one that supported the other. Hopefully it will turn out that they can both survive, but that's probably just wishful thinking in today's world.

[HEAVYWHALE]

Actually, I remember Erickson saying that Scheduled Load factor was 50%.

It is just a fact that Polar owes $140 million to Atlas. Polar hasn’t been paying for the A/C that are dry leased from Atlas Air and the holding company hasn’t been paying the regular lease payments of those A/C, so in turn Atlas owes money to the leasing companies, in effect Debt upon debt. $35 million was loaned from Atlas to the Holding company so the holding company could buy Polar with that money, further putting Atlas in the red. And something like $200 million in cash was missing at the time Rick Schuler was fired as the CEO of the company, and is no where to be found.

There is no doubt that this whole mess was caused by Management.

There is no doubt that Atlas Air would be in trouble anyway without Polar being in the picture, with the same management team in place.

However, if you compare business model to business model and run the companies with HONEST management, Atlas Air would be making huge profits and Polar would still be loosing money.

Atlas can fly around empty or full, it’s the same price for the 747, it’s up to the customer to fill up the plane. Polar’s 50% load factor is very weak.

It will be interesting to see what the creditors do. I know what I would do, and that would be, grow Atlas (there is a huge rebound in ACMI contracts and Atlas is very busy now) and I would seriously downsize the Polar Operations that have less than 70% load factors. And depending on the outcome of Polar’s grievance (which they will probably loose), I would wet lease Atlas to Polar to fly those routes, because Atlas can do it cheaper with the new renegotiated lease payments for their A/C.

By the way, does anyone know the truth to the rumor that 2 of Polar’s 400’s were repossessed by their leasing companys?

[turbynetrip]

HW sez:
Actually, I remember Erickson saying that Scheduled Load factor was 50%.

****
Just where are you characters getting these numbers from? Since I actually fly the airplanes mentioned, and sign the w/b sheet on every flight; UNLIKE Heavywhale and BD, I can verify that, on the flights I've had, we've AVERAGED 70-100Kg of cargo or otherwise been bulked out for the better part of 12 months. Chicago, LAX, NY and Miami stations have all had 'record' loads, according to the personnel there...and yes, these include the POLAR flights that Atlas has graciously taken over for us with their WET-LEASED planes. The world economy is on a comeback, and our numbers are showing it!

For Erikson's '50%' number to make any sense, we must be flying a LOT of empty planes around on our scheduled runs, and I, along with my colleagues, sure as hell haven't seen this. We'd have to be nearly EMPTY on every other flight! It's NOT happening!

As Polar's pilot group is in somewhat of a contentious contract negotiating period with PAC/AAWH mgt. stooges, count on management to cry 'poor' so that they have an excuse to hose us. But don't YOU fall for it, dear readers...
****

HW sez:
It is just a fact that Polar owes $140 million to Atlas. Polar hasn’t been paying for the A/C that are dry leased from Atlas Air and the holding company hasn’t been paying the regular lease payments of those A/C, so in turn Atlas owes money to the leasing companies, in effect Debt upon debt. $35 million was loaned from Atlas to the Holding company so the holding company could buy Polar with that money, further putting Atlas in the red. And something like $200 million in cash was missing at the time Rick Schuler was fired as the CEO of the company, and is no where to be found.

****

Ah yes, the "$140 million" number again. Why not demonstrate the FACTUALITY of this figure? You CAN'T...because... this number was generated by AAWH ATTORNEYS filing a legal brief in Miami bankruptcy court, as BD kindly provided a link to, short while ago- this figure is NOT from a respected Wall Street source or other NEUTRAL PARTY. Of course AAWH will, in this way, blame POLAR for its FAILED, OBSOLETE business model. What a fine way to do it! What geniuses they are! Who would'a thunk it?

Of course, we all know what stalwarts of the TRUTH attorneys are, particularly those employed by AAWH.

The hell of it is, if I was owed $140,000,000.00 by a 'client', the very LAST thing I would do is continue to provide goods and services to that 'client'.

And yet, we see AAWH happily continuing to WET-LEASE planes TO Polar, and Polar continue to DRY-LEASE planes FROM Atlas...FIVE OF THEM, at last count.

Funny behaviour from a so-called 'healthy' company towards a so-called 'SICK' company. Explain THAT, HW and BD! Again, your arguments fall FLAT for a complete lack of LOGIC and FACTS. But I know you'll keep spewin' 'em out, anyway.
****

HW sez:
There is no doubt that this whole mess was caused by Management.

****
On that, we can certainly agree.

****
HW sez:
There is no doubt that Atlas Air would be in trouble anyway without Polar being in the picture, with the same management team in place.

****
You get a cookie.

****
HW sez:
However, if you compare business model to business model and run the companies with HONEST management, Atlas Air would be making huge profits and Polar would still be loosing money.
****

BZZZZT!! No cookie for you, HW! And, you were doing so well there...the first tip to our studio audience, though, was the part about 'honest management'! Just how long have you been around the airline biz, anyway?

ONCE AGAIN...If ATLAS' business model were SOOOO good and POLAR'S SOOOO bad, then why in theee-hell is ATLAS running ITS planes on multiple POLAR routes on a wet-lease, and POLAR dry-leasing planes from ATLAS?

REPEAT AFTER ME....IF POLAR HAD THE BAD BUSINESS MODEL, THE SITUATION-(all together now!)

*WOULD* *BE* *REVERSED*!!!

****
hw sez:
Atlas can fly around empty or full, it’s the same price for the 747, it’s up to the customer to fill up the plane. Polar’s 50% load factor is very weak.
****

Again, the mythical "50%" number...got a REPUTABLE CITE for this? Or, is this coming from AAWH attorneys as well? And keep in mind, when POLAR flies a CHARTER, the SAME rules apply- we get paid whether the plane's empty or full! That's hardly the exclusive preserve of Atlas!

AAWH has LIED to Wall Street about financials in the past- who can believe anything Purchase says anymore? Too bad you do- and refuse to look at the FACTS, instead, much easier to swallow propaganda from mgt- especially when you agree with it, no?

****

HW sez:
It will be interesting to see what the creditors do. I know what I would do, and that would be, grow Atlas

****
Well, of COURSE you would, HW! After all, you're an Atlas crewdog! But just because this benefits YOU doesn't mean it's the right thing to do for the Company.

Guess what? If I were in mgt., the first thing I would do is GROW POLAR! What a surprise! Why? I'm a Polar crewdog!

****
HW sez:
(there is a huge rebound in ACMI contracts and Atlas is very busy now)
****
Really? Great! Got a CITE for that, too?

Your argument is GARBAGE as long as a SINGLE Atlas plane flies with a POLAR flight number. If the ACMI biz were as you say...but...

ACMI is virtually DEAD. The halcyon days of Chowdry drumming up limitless business in his $40,000,000.00 BBJ and getting cheap cash from Pakistan are GONE. Get used to it!

That's why Atlas planes have to fly POLAR flights, and POLAR has to RENT planes from Atlas, otherwise they would sit and ROT...GLIDERS in the desert, they'd be, but for POLAR's routes and VIABLE business model!

I'm sure Polar would be happy to lease planes from the open market, rather than pay AAWH's exhorbitant rates. But what's happening isn't supposed to be good for POLAR, it's what's good for AAWH that counts.
****
HW sez:
and I would seriously downsize the Polar Operations that have less than 70% load factors. And depending on the outcome of Polar’s grievance (which they will probably loose),

****
Brilliant, HW! Downsize? Hell, why not SELL us?

I'll TELL you why...POLAR is one of the few JEWELS in the AAWH crown...and AAWH mgt. KNOWS it! And, don't worry ...it's far from a forgone conclusion that we'll loose (sic) our grievance!
****
HW sez:
I would wet lease Atlas to Polar to fly those routes, because Atlas can do it cheaper with the new renegotiated lease payments for their A/C.

****
You'd wet lease planes to us, eh?

Hmm, could it be that it's because you HAVE NO WORK FOR THEM? Gosh, what a surprise!

BUT HEY....GUESS WHAT??

YOU ALREADY ARE wet-leasing planes to us! Man, at least give AAWH mgt. some credit...that wasn't YOUR idea!!

THAT'S why Polar is STILL a part of the AAWH 'empire'. Atlas has NOTHING but a pile of paper leases and a few charter contracts- the relative worth of which, AGAIN, can be gauged by the FACT that POLAR wet and dry-leases planes from ATLAS- NOT the other way 'round!
****
HW sez:
By the way, does anyone know the truth to the rumor that 2 of Polar’s 400’s were repossessed by their leasing companys?

****

Most likely unsubstantiated B.S., HW- just like the rest of your post!

EVERY 400F we have is still on the property...INCLUDING N496MC, which, according to your nutty 'logic', AAWH gives us to operate for FREE! It's Chistmas ALL YEAR ROUND for Polar at AAWH!

But, believe me, we'd like to give it back, since I'm sure we could get a BRAND NEW PLANE from Boeing for what we pay AAWH for operating it! But if we did that, it'd go to the desert and turn into a $150,000,000.00 sailplane- beacuse AAWH can't make the payments!

Thanks for playing, BD and HW! You lose- AGAIN.

TT

[HEAVYWHALE]

Hey, Beaver... you want this one or should I? I'll give you first dibs… nah!

This guy thinks that 8k filings aren't a good source of information?

I think that what I said was, "if I were management", I didn't say, "I would like to do this." Get a grip.

What you as Polar guys should do is get on board with us Atlas guys to join forces. You shouldn't fall into the Management trap that is so obvious to us. How long have you been in this business? How long have you been working for these jokers?

You obviously still can't understand what Cato is doing to you guys.

He's pitting the two groups against each other and you are falling into the trap. Beaver and I are just pointing out the numbers.

Your argument that you "see" flights with high load factors on them is meaningless, because I have "seen" many one way flights first hand across the ocean empty with a Polar call sign. Just go to our web site and look for your self, the loads are on the flight page.

You Polar guys seem to be pissed off that you had a "little Jewel" when you were owned by GE and now that stupid AAWWH management messed you up, you guys hate anything with the Atlas name on it. I’ve heard your leadership say, “I’ve never seen hostile management like this before. When we were owned by GE we all got along.” Well, welcome to the jungle! We have been dealing with the A-holes for 11 years! You guys get on the property and see what we have had to deal with for so long and you all think that we are just a bunch of wimps or something. Like we like being treated this way.

You think that we have a crappy contract and we do. Some of it can be attributed to Polar pilot’s actions. Don't know what I mean?

Can you say, "6 month extension?" Missed opportunity to join hands with Atlas Pilots in negotiations.

Can you say, "try to change the definitions of struck work at the last minute and strike a deal with management to take more A/C from Atlas if they went on strike?" I know you think that it's BS and you will say prove it. I took the phone call first hand, but your answer to that is I’m lying right?

Can you say, "change the deal for the furloughed guys at the last minute and shove them to the bottom of the list?"

Anyway, who's counting, bottom line is that you guys are really pissed, and I don't blame you at all. We are pissed too! But not at you guys.

Your MEC tried to join hands with us late last year when you needed support for your grievance, but now has seriously backed off now that ALPA National is pushing for a merger. Which you guys don't want, because you are much more junior as a crew force. I don't blame you.

Bottom line is, that we are trying to explain the numbers that are given to us. Not attack you guys as a bad group of pilots. You explain all this away as us being some brainwashed zombies. Give us some credit. Hell, I was the one that came up there and walked your friggin picket line, after all the backstabbing had already taken place. I'm ready to burry the hatchet, but it seams you guys are only willing to burry it when it's convenient for you and screw your buddies to protect yourself. I know lots of Polar guys, and they, as individuals are great, but as a group your track record toward us is not that great.

All you guys want to do is fight. It's in your argument here, and it's obvious that you are closed minded to anything that looks anti-your side. You show that clearly, in that your argument for the numbers is that Management is just plain lying about the numbers.

If you have any business background at a then you know that they the old saying is true about what makes a good accountant... He's the one that answers the question of, "how much money did I make last year?" and he replies, "How much money did you want to make last year?" Numbers can be manipulated to show just about anything. The new trend of testing company's health now, after the Enrons, is to follow the cash flow.

And if you look at where the cash has gone and look at the balance sheets then you see who is healthy and who is not.

You can look for yourself on the SEC web site its all there. But I warn you, get a pot of coffee first.

Hey, we DON'T hate you guys. We want this US and THEM to stop, but every time my road rash heals from getting dragged back by something the Polar group does again and again that effects the Atlas group it's hard not to think that you guys are getting personal. I would hate to think that it's personal against the Atlas pilots. It's management you are mad at right?

Let's just hope that it's not another EAL where you guys are so stubborn to see the writing on the wall before it's too late to save your job and take ours down too. But if that's the way you want to play then, hey we are in!

Let's hope all this crap slinging can stop.

Regards.

[Beaver Driver]

TT,
Here are a few. Some you will need passwords for and others you might need subscriptions to. This isn't rocket science. Polar hasn't paid Atlas ONE THIN DIME for the 5 leases you are so proud of. They also haven't paid Atlas for ANY of the flying Atlas has had to do to cover Polariods sales force jumping into markets they have no business in. Who knows maybe management is giving all the zero productivity flights to Atlas guys so the Polar guys will stay loyal and keep fighting the good fight. I agree with HW. You need to educate yourself. Your lack of knowledge of your own company is embarrassing. It is precisely that lack of knowledge that allows Management to pit Atlas pilots against Polar pilots. Your company involves more than the few flights you operate every month. It is very easy to get on your schedule page and research the previous month. It has the loads on it. You really should stay better informed.





https://employees.atlasair.com/itk//jeff/2.asp?id=79


http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1135185/000095013404001305/0000950134-04-001305-index.htm


http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/1135185/000103570403000830/d11236exv99w1.htm


http://www.atlasreorg.com/pdfs/ObjectionAtlasNoteholders020504.pdf


http://www.atlasreorg.com/pdfs/ObjectionAtlasNoteholders020504.pdf

http://www.hoovers.com/free/co/secdoc.xhtml?ipage=1527314&doc=0&attach=on


http://fool.investor.reuters.com/ReportDetails.aspx?target=complimentary&sid=1&docid=31595018&ticker=AAWHQ

http://quotes.fool.com/custom/fool/html-snapshot.asp?currticker=AAWH.Q&symbols=aawh.q

http://reports.finance.yahoo.com/w0?r=27774654:1

[400drvr]

Do you think for one minute that Atlas does not tell Polar what to do. We have not had a VP of flight ops since our move to New York and as I understand it our current management is short term, awaiting for the Atlas hand picked management team.:*

[joetommy]

What's the latest gossip? I heard a big change to both fleets.

[HEAVYWHALE]

400Dvr,

Do you think for one-second that we don't know that? We know that AAMT is running this show. That's what we are pissed about. They are the ones that are funneling the money around.

WE Atlas Pilots are pissed because we would show a profit and get PROFIT Sharing if our looser AAMT would just stop taking from Atlas Air and giving it away. But as I've said before, numbers can be manipulated. We used to have some thing like 400million in cash before Polar came on the lot, and well now Atlas Air doesn't have squat. We don't blame you guys directly for that, we blame AAMT.

See ya out in the friendly sky's. :hmm:

[Beaver Driver]

400 drvr,


I'm sure the Atlas guys would let you have their VP ops if you really feel you need one that bad. They would probably throw in the Chief Pilot for free.... In fact they may pay you to take him.

[B74flyer]

400 Million Cash?
When are you guys going to stop being so idiotic.
You say that Atlas had 400 million cash before they bought Polar?
Who told you that?
Could it be Management?
The same management who has been fired?
The same management that the SEC is investigating?
The same Accounting firm that has been fired?
The same accounting firm for Enron?
The 8 & 10 K's that you love to quote that has been declared phony by the Current management blaming old CEO and Arthur Anderson?

Have you guys ever even seen an ACMI contract?
When you sign an ACMI contract for an Aircraft there is a base price for minimum flying. Then it is a sliding scale for additional flying. When the economy is good, lots of flying, everyone makes money. Economy bad, minimum flying payrate not enough to cover all costs. LOSE MONEY!
Chowdry had golden touch, His signed contracts had very high minimum payment clauses.
Current management and economy not so good.
Some contacts not paying costs.
They were signed hoping additional flying would pay enough to make profit.
Did not happen.............

And 140 million owed Atlas by Polar.....Please.......
Who controls ALL money recieved?
AAWH gets all money.
AAWH keeps all money.
You make it sound like Polar has some fat bank account somewhere filled with the money it is making.
AAWH has ALL Polar cash.
AAWH has the 140 million.
Atlas Air, Polar Air gets the shaft.
AAWH says to world : We have money! Atlas and Polar has None......
Thats because AAWH not paying leases.

Look back to the Bankruptcy site........
Add up the 20 largest debtors for both Polar and Atlas.
Atlas Owes Debtors 100's of MILLIONS
Polar Owes chump change.
How much profit does it take Atlas per ACMI contract to service this HUGE dept?

Polar sold to Atlas with ZERO debt.
Need only small profit to service costs.
Yes ACMI (CAN) make more money then scheduled service.
IF you have enough "HIGH PAYING" contracts.
But, Look at the debt that needs to be serviced.

Why did Atlas enter bankruptcy?
Becuase years 2000 and 2001 filings to SEC had to be restated because of Phony numbers.
New Accounting firm Unable to restate those years because of "LOST" data.
Atlas did not bye Polar till Nov 2001. Yet you still blame Polar for the Bankruptcy.

Do you really think that even Our (AAWH) management would be using Atlas planes to fly Polar Schedule service if they had a better paying ACMI contract to fly it on?
NO they do not............

Look at scheduled service.
Planes flying From Asia to US 95-100% load factor.
Planes flying TO Asia 25%
Equals Total load factor.
Besides Load Factor is not the important number anyway.
YIELD IS. IE price per Kiloton of Freight.

Trick is make sure load from Asia Pays enough to cover crappy return leg.
Build up TOTAL scheduled network so that when economy improves YIELD goes WAY up all ALL legs.
In a good economy you can earn profit at a 25% load factor because of YIELD.

I have said before once the restructuring has been completed and the Debt and lease rates are at a more manageable level BOTH Polar AND Atlas will make money.

So the ONLY people to blame is past management.

Stop blaming each other...................

[Beaver Driver]

........hahahahahaha

Aren't you the same guy who told me, in a different thread, that Atlas had not paid Polar for the flying Atlas was doing for them?


From your post........ http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113104&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

"Beav,
If you read more closely on ALL the pleadings of the BK you will find that while Polar has not paid Atlas for the lease payments, Atlas has not paid any of their lease payments either. Atlas has also not paid Polar for ANY of the wet lease flying that Atlas is doing for Polar. "

.......you need to go back to school.

[joetommy]

No need to fight. Events will determine everything. Probably within the next six months.

[B74flyer]

Attack the argument, not the person.

[zerozero]

I bought a ticket on American.
ORD-FCO-ORD
$700. Not bad.
Ciao.

[whtwhale]

http://www.atlasreorg.com/pdfs/objection-1110stip-031704.pdf

Atlas can not even qualify for DIP money as a stand alone. Polar is putting up 45 mil in Cash for the 50 mil financing that Atlas needs.

[Intruder]

Polar is putting up 45 mil in Cash for the 50 mil financing that Atlas needs.

Interesting twist on reality... Did you read the entire document?

Polar may have $45 M in total cash now, but even the best projections show that dropping to $9.5 M.

Also, note that on a comparative, same-date basis, Polar only had $28.8 M cash, compared with Atlas' $55.5 M (the Polar document does not include Atlas' current cash position).

Further, compare Polar's total assets of $225.3 M and debt of almost $1 B (approx 1:4 asset:debt ratio); with Atlas' debt of $704 M, $1.25 B in personal property assets alone, plus over $400 M in secured claims and cash (less than 1:1 debt:asset ratio).

[whtwhale]

as you said " read the rest of the document"

Atlas does not qualify for Stand alone financing. At best they could only get 7.7 mil supported by Atlas receivables.

Polars receivables support 24 mil in Standalone financing.

Polar is stuck with hi lease rates forced upon it by Atlas.

The proposed DIP financing requires Polar to cross-guarantee and cross collateralize lending to Atlas.

Inshort, for Polar to request financing at a later date, would require Atlas to pay it lenders using Polar as collateral.

[Intruder]

Atlas does not qualify for Stand alone financing. At best they could only get 7.7 mil supported by Atlas receivables.

Polars receivables support 24 mil in Standalone financing.

OK...By your latest analysis, they only qualify for $31.7 M, "supported by receivables." The actual loan was for $50 M, substantially more than $31.7.

Where does the judge's order say Atlas does not qualify for standalone financing? Where in any of the bankruptcy documentation is any such request in the first place?

Also, what is Polar's current net worth, by their numbers? Atlas'?

[gooneydog]

Was Detroit - Rome somewhere on this thread?????