FEWP (the Federation of European Women Pilots) is holding their Annual Congress in Salzburg at the end of May, and a friend and I are planning to fly there, in the ancient C150 in which I recently got a share. Neither of us has flown much in Europe, and not beyond Northern France. We pretty well understand the basics with respect to paperwork and so on, but have a few questions that hopefully someone will be able to answer. Our route is likely to be through North-East France to the Strasbourg area, then across Southern Germany to Salzburg. We could go through Belgium etc, but are trying to restrict the number of countries we go through, to save on both buying maps/flight guides and learning rules/regulations on a first long trip abroad.

1) Rumour has it that some aircraft landing at some airfields in Germany are required to have silencers. Is this the case? And which aircraft, and which airfields?

2) The area of Germany around Stuttgart and Munich is a plain at around 3000ft, where apparently the cold air of the mountains meets the warm air of the plains, and at certain times of the year there can be fog for weeks! :eek: What's it like in May? And what are our chances for VFR flying for the whole route at that time of year? or is there another route which would be better?

3) Are there any other national/regional/local rules and regulations that we should know about?

4) On a brighter note - where are nice places to stop, eat, stay etc?

5) We've already had lots of advice concerning which maps, flight guides etc to use, but more can't go amiss; does anyone have any particular recommendations?

Thanks in advance. And yes, I will tell you all about it afterwards....if you'd like me to. :ok:

And yes, I will tell you all about it afterwards....if you'd like me to. :ok:Yes please!

FFF
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Hi Whirly

Mrs PhilD and I made the trip from Saltzburg to Sourthern England last May, as the return leg of a trip to Prague. It was also the first time that I had been out of the UK/NE France area.

We routed to the north of Munich (more on this below), then more or less on a direct track to Rheims, where we stopped for fuel, then to Le Touquet and back across the channel. The Salzburg-Rheims leg took 3:10 in the Arrow at 140kts, but I assume that either your trusty 150 or you will need to stop before then!

We landed in Germany on the way out (at Frankfurt Hahn) where silencers were not an issue, but I can't comment on silencers at other German airfields.

We intended to stay 1 night in Salzburg, and then stop in France on the way back, but there was a low-level stratus around Salzburg that prevented us getting out, so we had to go back for a day's sightseeing at Salzburg castle, coffee and cream cakes, dinner and a second night in our hotel (shame!). The next day it was slightly better, and the very helpful man in the fantastic weather facility in the amazing GA Terminal at Salzburg found us a route where we could stay VFR. I hadn't done any research on the climate at that time of year, so this may be a problem, but we were only delayed one day.

As far as procedures go, we had absolutely no problems, we just called-up the FIS units as we flew across Germany and France, and they were really helpful, guiding us around the bits of Class D etc. I don't think you need to do much preparation here, just the basic on VFR cruising levels etc.

I used the Jepp maps in Germany and France, mainly as I find them easy to read, and it means you have the same format across both countries. I would certainly use them if I did the same type of trip again. I also bought a Bottlang Trip Kit, so that I had up-to-date airfield charts, and I would certainly recommend that you do this, as it means that you have the airfield plates for any unexpected detours etc.

IMHO Saltzburg is a great GA destination, a good airport quite close to the city, with a fantastic GA terminal and very helpful staff, more like the US than the UK. The city itself has loads to offer, as I'm sure you know.

I'm sure you will have a great time and look forward to the story...

Whirly,

The French low-level military corridors are a pain in the butt and lots of them cross your route. They are generally not active at weekends, which are the only times I've crossed France.

Hot and high can be a problem in the Alps with an aircraft like a 150. A C172 or Warrior, can't remember which, went down at Gruyeres last year (2300feet amsl, temp >30 degrees), stalled into the trees on takeoff, all 4 killed (the number of POB on board says it all).

A C152 failed to clear the low pass a couple of miles after taking off Easterly at Saanen (3300 feet amsl, also last year, both killed.

Something to think about if you head off to a mountain strip on a nice day for a look-see, stacked up with gear!

Have a great trip,

QDM

P.S. The heavily loaded Dakota staggering off from Saanen in > 30 degrees last year would have made your eyes weep.

PhilD,

Thanks. That sounds pretty reassuring...though I'd still like to know about this silencer issue, and the South German weather. Hopefully someone else will know.

QDM x 3,

Oh dear, we'll be flying mid-week, to get there at the weekend. I'll need to check the charts carefully. Are these military corridors crossable at all, like a MATZ? Or do we have to avoid them all?

We know about hot and high...we were in the Scottish Highlands during last summer's heatwave!!! Will need to bear it in mind for airfields at altitude though. And we don't fly overloaded; we're both very good at surviving all week with one change of clothes and a toothbrush. Looks like we'd better be even more strict this time around though. Hmm...maybe I should go on another diet!

Thanks, people. any more?

Which charts do people prefer for Europe? Some - like PhilD - say Jeppersens are clearest, and the same for all countries which is nice. But other people say they don't have enough detail for VFR map and compass type flying...especially if you're lost! :eek: The ICAO ones for France have loads of detail...but I can't follow them easily, yet, anyway! But I compared the Jepp one for the Scottish Highlands with the UK one, and was glad I wasn't using it to fly with; they missed off several villages, and in an area like that, villages are useful. So...what do you all think?

Which charts do people prefer for Europe?Get yourself down to a pilot shop, pull out all the charts you can find, and make up your own mind which you prefer.

My personal preference after just one flight to France/Belgium: In France, I couldn't follow the Jepp charts - the military low-flying areas, in particular, were not well depicted. On the French ICAO charts, however, they were no problem (which makes sense really, since the layout of the French charts will be designed to clearly depict French airspace). In Belgium, though, the Jepp charts were no problem. In fact, my French chart covered the entire area of Belgium that I needed to fly in, but I discovered that some Belgian airspace is not shown on the French chart (and some UK airspace, too), so I regarded suplimenting the French ICAO chart with a Jepp chart in Belgium as a necessity.Are these military corridors crossable at all, like a MATZ?Some are, some aren't. I found all the information I needed in the Jepp trip-kit, but I had to look pretty hard for it. I followed up with a phone-call to the relevant controller, who didn't understand English well enough to be able to answer the question.... but he suggested that I could fax him the question, since his understanding of written English was ok, and half an hour later I had a detailed reply by fax.

FFF
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The French military corridors are no problem as long as you are not cloud restricted.
In the main they are 800ft to about 2000ft above surface.

You can get a noise certificate free from the CAA which will save you from paying double landing fees at German airports, Augsberg for instance.
A silencer will probably not be necessary to meet the noise
requirements.The certificate will give details of your propellor amongst other information.

The SIA VFR charts and rules pack is the best guide to flying in France, together with the appropriate OACI topos

Silencer issue....

Some German airfields require visiting aircraft to have a noise certificate. This assures a maximum decibel leve at test conditions.

Some UK aircraft have a noise cert (mine does) some dont. If you dont have one...dont worry. They may charge you a slightly higher landing fee, if so, this is usually published somewhere, on the other hand they may not ask to see the certificate. Silencers are only usually fitted to D reg aircraft, they are not generally certified in the UK.

I'm doing a trip along a similar route ending up in the Austrian Alps within the next three weeks, so if I learn anything that may be useful, I will tell you about it later.

Fly......

In France you can fly along airways at VFR cruising levels ie odd or even plus 500 feet depending which direction you are heading. If you call up Lille mid Channel and ask them for say FL 55 heading South East and follow an airway route it will take you as if by magic through all the nasty French restricted zones. You will also proably get handed over to your next frequency. Of course you may need to be on top (which is ok in France if you have climbed up through a hole in the cloud) but obviously not in the cloud without an IR. The attached link explains about the airways.

http://www.higher.flyer.co.uk/html/fairways.html

The Jepp trip kit gives all restricted and danger area crossing contacts, if I fly VFR I make a long list of the danger areas,, who to contact and when and then just ask, they don't usually refuse.

Have a great trip.

Flew into Egglesbach (right by Frankfurt) in an Archer, last year, completely unaware of any noise requirements. Had no problems, and no-one asked to see any noise certificates, or asked me to pay any extra landing fees.

GB

Thanks everyone, really helpful stuff.:ok: Any more comments, before this disappears off the page?

You need to flight plan to cross any border in or out of France.

Make sure that you alert customs in advance if it is necessary (it will say in your VFR flight guide) at your French destination or departure airport. It's easy to overlook this and sometimes you get away with it. At other times they can get very shirty indeed.

QDM

On the French bit ... you may not get any response at all from Lille, so don't bank on them helping you through.

Likewise, don't call Paris Info for the service you get from London Info - all you'll get is told off. Most other Info services are actually full control services with radar, and will give you a squawk and ignore you till you leave their airspace.

The good news is that those French mil areas are NOT a problem; some you can fly through, some you can't, but it's all set out in the relevant documentation which you'd need anyway. I use Bottlang, which explains each one in detail.

Just sit with the map, work out your route, and if it crosses a red corridor or area, look it up in Bottlang. Check time (some are night only), rules, and callsigh/frequency (for clearance to enter, or for activity status), and you're all set. If you call on the frequency and a recording gets played at you, it probably means the shop is shut and you can do what you like. If your French isn't up to that, and you want to be safe, then call one of the other listed units (something like the local Approach Control).

I've bimbled all over France, and never had a problem with anything. It could hardly be easier.

Keef
I have always had good response from Lille.

The important thing is to ensure you are using a current S. England 1/2 million topo as older editions had an incorrect frequency printed on them.

The correct frequency is 120.27

As a double check, invest in Aerad European Suppliment and use it to check all frequencies you need en route.

Whirlybird,

I recently lived a year in Stuttgart and hopefully can offer some encouragemnt re the weather. It was before I started learning to fly mind, so my met appreciation was (even) less than now.

We'd occaisionally get some radiation fog first thing on spring mornings, but it would burn off quickly enough. The thing I would warn about is the golfball size hail stones that the summer CBs can throw down. Only happened twice in my time there but many cars parked out in the open were damaged - if it were me I'd arrange hanger space at any planned stop offs in advance. Mostly though, I remember clear skies and little wind...

Good luck and hope you enjoy it. It's one of my eventual aims to fly myself there.

bfato

Wow, thanks everyone!

Isn't PPRuNe amazing - advice on where to fly, how to get through the military areas, German noise restrictions or lack of them, even weather advice from someone who's lived in Germany. You're all absolutely wonderful. And I'll certainly post a report when we get back.

Now just keep fingers crossed for the weather for us.

Whirly

We flew last summer from EGHH to Bad Durkheim (EDRF) near Mannheim, via the ubiquitous stop at L2K for fuel. Can't help much with comments about weather in Southern Germany as we did not go that far, but a few observations on Northern France and Germany as I found it. We flew out on a Sunday and back on a Tuesday afternoon.

During the weekend, a large number of the French DA/RA seem to be inactive. There is one long one which we had to cross, but checking in the SIA VFR guide showed that during the week it was only active to around 1500 so we were OK.

I crossed one or two of the other DA during the return and the controller at Paris North FIS was reasonably helpful giving be the details of Cambrai Approach - who seemed mainly interested in how many people were on board - however we eventually were cleared to cross just as the boundary was approaching (GPS is wonderful at times like that!)

Germnay was much easier - no issues with silencers for me at Bad Durkheim and landing fee and parking for three days of 5 euros. FIS from Frankfurt was excellent - above about 3500 feet they gave me a sqawk and provided a radar service which was excellent

"G-TY traffic information for you is a 747 climbing out of Ramstein" and the like.

Overall I felt the controllers in Germany were more helpful than the French, but that could just be me!

I used the SIA VFR kit for the whole trip as the map went far enough into Germany. Overall this was not bad, with a reasonable portion of the handbook in English (useful if like me you can speak some German but very little French!)

Hope this is some use to you.

TZ

Well, we leave next Monday. France is more or less organised; Germany isn't as we're still waiting on the new edition of the ICAO charts, due any day. Does anyone have any recommendations for nice places to stop/eat/stay in Germany, fairly close to a straight line from Strasbourg to Salzburg?

As already promised, I'll tell you all about it after the event.

Have a great trip, Whirly. Salzburg is a great place to land. The airport is really very close to the town, you can stand on the castle ramparts and watch the planes taking off. If you find an excuse to file out to the east, you can fly pretty much right over the town. Nice GA facility too with AIS and Met on site.

Can recommend only one town down that way, which is Konstanz. Its a little off your route but its a nice grass strip with English speaking and friendly staff, though if you're down that way Freidrichshafen might be better if its just a fuel stop as its cash only at Konstanz. From there to Salzburg you fly along Lake Constance over Overammergau (sp?), Neuchwanstein castle etc with the Alps on your wingtip but plenty of flat land if the worst happens. Very pretty.

Don't forget to tick the box on the FPL that says you've got an ELT.

Aim

You've answered that question I was about to post!! I'm off to Vienna a week on Friday and plan to fly along the Alps as you describe, passing right by Whirly in Salzburg on the way. I was looking to stop somewhere overnight on the way and was wondering if anyone has been to Konstanz. So now I know!

I'm armed with the Bottland for half of western Europe, and about 8 of the Jepp VFR+GPS maps, so we are just about ready. I hope to compare notes on this thread with Whirly when we get back.

PD

hi Whirly,

just now reading about your planned flight. If you should plan Egelsbach (EDFE) in your route, then I can recommend not only a nice, inexpensive, place to eat, but also a FREE place to stay over :p Please send me a mail or pm if your interested.

Westy

WestWind certainly is a very fine source of information about flying in Germany. You may also send me a PM with detailed questions.

Keep 'em up.

FR

Since Mrs Romeo is minding her own stuff, I find some time to answer your questions.

1. There is no general restriction for noisy aircraft on German airfields. If your aircraft meets your national regulations then there is no promlem flying in Germany. As stated above, you'll probably be asked to present the a/c's noise certificate. The lack thereof will in most cases result in significantly higher landing fees.

2. "Flat" is in the eye of the beholder. The south of Germany is litterally littered with mountains and rivers, resulting in a change of weather every other 50 NM. The closer you get to the Alps, the more influence effects like foehn have. As long as you are not counting minutes going VFR will not be a problem.

3. The most important rule concerning airfields in Germany is when they're closed they're closed. Many smaller airfields are operating on weekends only, landing there during the week might even result in legal prosecution, sued more often than not by neighbours complaining about noise.
You are not required to file flightplans in Germany or in Austria, as long as you are not crossing the border, eg to and from France or Belgium. There is no need for flightplans crossing from Germany to Austria.

4. I'd strongly suggest tuning onto FIS frequency while en-route. First of all they speak English and can help you negotiating restricted areas. Many of the smaller airfields are run by local flying clubs and are German only, even though English may be understood. If you appreciate help getting in and out of places you might consider planning via airports with class D or class F airspace, however avoiding the larger ones (all with EDDx as designator). It's for example Friedrichshafen (EDNY), Augsburg (EDMA), Mannheim (EDFM), Karlsruhe-Baden (EDSB), Schwäbisch Hall (EDTY) or Zweibrücken (EDRZ), most are Radar equipped and can guide you along. Other airfields you might think about are Freiburg (EDTF), Mosbach-Lohrbach (EDEM), Rothenburg (EDFR), Egelsbach (EDFE) or Landshut (EDML). I can't give you any information on places to stay at or to find something to eat. Most fields will have a restaurant close by and certainly a helpful soul pointing you in the right direction.

5. I won't comment on maps. As stated above, check with your local dealer and see which suit you best.

Final comment: As long as you know your stuff, flying in Germany is very relaxed and easy. Just hit the starter swich and off you go. I hope you enjoy the time.

FR

Wow, thanks people, I'm glad I resurrected this thread.

Pilot Warehouse sent the 2003 charts, saying they'd exchange them for 2004 if they got those in time. They arrived today, and I've been happily route planning when I should be working. I fancied Freidrichshavn or Konstanz...preferably the latter as we like small airfields. Then I looked on here...so good to know it's recommended. English speaking is not a requirement as my co-pilot is fairly fluent in French and German...but it's nice if I can understand things too.

Westy, I'll look up Egelsbach on the chart, and pm you if it looks like we might stop there. Could always do that one on the way back, perhaps.

What else...we're taking lots of cash so will be OK for fuel at smaller airfields. What about oil? Is that usually available if needed?

I'll update this before we leave, if not before, and look forward to comparing notes with PhilD when we get back.

Thanks again to you all. :ok:

http://www.flugplatz-konstanz.de/

if you hadn't found it already

I had a few problems with oil but just because I use 15W50 which wasn't always available. There was plenty of other oil available.

One other thing - when I was there a couple of weeks back, there was a fair bit of temporarily reserved airspace north of the German border and south of Munich which was being used in a military exercise. It wasn't marked on maps but it was notamed and there was a notam publication which had a graphical description of the area. Probably finished now but worth checking.

The above mentioned military exercise is already terminated. So don't worry about it.

Since your companion knows German let him check out www.eddh.de You'll find loads of more or less useless information on German airfields.

Have fun,

FR

Westy,
Egelsbach is too far north for the charts we've got, sorry. :(

FoxRomeo,
My linguistically talented co-pilot is a "she", not that it matters. ;)

AimFar,
We use 15W50 oil as well, but the airfield maintenance engineer assures me we can use any Shell oil if we have to. But I'm taking a couple of litres along in any case.

Well, we now have up-to-date charts, and are ready...sort of, anyway. We leave tomorrow, but only as far as Manston...it's a long way from Sleap, and we don't want to do a channel crossing late afternoon in a rush, especially as the wx for the week is looking great, so there's no hurry. As for the rest...all advice taken on board, and hopefully we'll follow some of it....since I like the sound of Konstanz anyway. If I get time and internet access I'm post details while we're away; if not I'll do it when we get back - around 4th June.

And thanks again for all the advice.:ok: Any last minute thoughts, post them here and I'll check tonight.