Embarassing question perhaps on beig a pilot!

[Lump Jockey]

Hello. Somewhat silly of me to believe I could make it from 0 hours to pro pilot whilst in my early 30s perhaps?! But that's my, hmm lack of a better word, dream! Perhaps that's all it will be, a dream (queue violins!), but I still want it!
Anyhow, here's my question(s): What is the way to go?
Consider I have little money, which really isn't far from the truth! Would gaining the PPL be of any help. If I were able to get a loan, and my prospects look good here, where should I decide to go; CPL course? ATPL full monty? Would gaining the PPL really help me out in the long run? Wouldn't that mean hour building or something, to "go" for the CPL? Help, I have little hair left at this point! Then there's the IR and ME. Do either of these come "in" with the ATPL or CPL, I'm doubting it, but I'd like confirmation please. Isn't there just a school I can go to, with my borrowed money, and do the "works"? Of course, I know whatever I do, doesn't necessarily give me a job at the end of it! But what's the best bet here?
Thanks for any sort of guidance here chaps.
LJ, the lazy mo-fo!

[martin_EGTK]

Don't get your PPL, you'll only be wasting your money when it comes to your CPL/IR. On my course at Oxford Aviation (OAT) we have five pilots with full PPLs and they have only been given a refund for 3 hours flying, despite the fact they have over 80 hours logged. FTO's prefer to train you themselves. If I were you, I'd take the leep of faith and apply to do an integrated course. I too am a bit strapped for cash but I applied for the Airline Preparation Program at OAT after looking at a number of FTOs, after passing the selection process I was able to obtain a loan for my training from HSBC which covered my course fees and some living expenses. My advice would be, if you want it that badly, go for it!

[PaddyMcGinty]

If your stuck for cash and you have 0hours I would definately recommend the modular route, not the integrated one. If it IS your dream go for it, your not too old at all. Firstly get a trial flight of about 30-60mins or so to defo see if its what you want and if it is get your Class1 medical. That will cost about 400-500pound in the UK i think.

As for now I would recommend buying Clive Hughes "Guide to becoming a Professional Pilot". It will answer an awful lot of questions you will have and tell you the routes you can take.

If you want to become a professional pilot you can do a modular course or an integrated course.

The integrated will cost at least £60,000 where as the modular you can do for about 40-50,000. Both of them can take the same length of time. If you go at the modular full time you could have your CPL/IR or fATPL in 14 - 18months.

The steps you have to do are as follows for an fATPL:

JAR PPL (45hrs)
Night Qualification (can be included in the 45 but takes 5 hours)
ATPL exams (these can be done any time after the PPL)
Hourbuilding (up to 150 hours)
Complex A/C (5hours)
you can do your ME somewhere in between the hourbuilding and IR (10 hours).
CPL (25-30hours)
IR (50hrs)

To fly with an airline you also need:

MCC course
Type Rating
(building up your hours to about 600 would be well recommended. a lot of people get an instructors rating to build up their hours).

I hope this has been of some help to you. It is a huge amount of money but its not stopping me from my dream, if you want it bad enough you can get it. Good luck.

Stephen

[pa28biggles]

Lump Jockey,
It's your dream so go for it.
Your age could be a very slight hinderance (your only in your early 30's!), but your age also brings advantages. You have more life experience than a 21 year old like me - this does help. I would recommend modular. The money to be saved from going modular far outweighs the advantages of the Integrated Course.
I echo PaddyMcGinty, get the"Guide to becoming a Professional Pilot" by Clive Hughes." This will answer many questions, and give you lots to think about. Then have a trial lesson, then get a class one medical ASAP. It is better to know whether you can pass the medical now rather than later. :ok:
All the best,
PA28

[FlyingForFun]

Just to clarify what others have said:

If you decide to go for the Modular route (which you probably should if you're short of money), then you have to get a PPL at some point - it should be the first thing you do after getting a medical.

(Martin_EGTK's advice doesn't apply to a Modular course, only to Integrated, which usually works out more expensive.)

Good luck,

FFF
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[Send Clowns]

Martin - please don't post unless you know what you're talking about! To say that a PPL is a waste of money shows you only know about a tiny, specialized part of flight training. Someone who has clearly indicated that he has not got a large amount of money, especially over the age of 30, is unlikely to go for an integrated course. You are completely wrong when you say "FTO's prefer to train you themselves" except in terms that they then have the business, and they want to ensure people are taught well and use their hour building wisely, preferably flying in UK airspace. Otherwise they don't mind. I work for an FTO in groundschool who train people with PPLs from all sorts of places, and fly for a flying club. I have taught students that another FTO has sent to the club for a PPL and hour building. They could not train him themselves, did not have the right level of aircraft or instructor, as they only teach CPL and IR.

Lump Jockey - You're not too old!

The cheaper route available to you, is a modular route as described above. I think you have been considering this route, but have perhaps been advised by someone who knows the old CAA route where "self improvers" needed (I think) 700 hours to start the course. The system is now different, and you only need 150 hours to start the commercial flight training. You will need a PPL to start the groundschool - go for ATPL not

Any commercial flight training organisation (FTO) will be able to advise you through all this, and even your local flying club should be able to give you an idea. Look in a flying magazine or on the CAA website for contact details.

Cost will be from around £40-42,000 if everything is completed in the UK. You can spend a lot more!

Careful comparing price quotes: check VAT and home landing fees are included. Try to avoid paying up front, people have lost many thousands.

[Pilot Pete]

To fly with an airline you also need:

MCC course
Type Rating

I would just point out that technically you don't need either. It is possible to get airline employment without an MCC (either through an exemption, which is unlikely to apply here, or through the airline 'throwing in ' the MCC during the basic training - not likely, but not unheard of either.)

As for the type rating, the subject has been done to death on these pages and although a trend has started it is by no means a dead cert that you will have to have or even put the money up for a type rating to get employment with many UK airlines.

You would however be extremely wise to look at the worst case scenario which is you qualify and don't find employment immediately. I personally feel that not doing an MCC before seeking employment is very limiting on your chances of getting a job, so would budget for that and also budget for 'Plan B', be it through getting an instructor rating on your new licence or something else to allow you to build some more hours and experience whilst trying to get that ellusive first break.

Best of luck.

PP

[Lump Jockey]

THANK YOU all very much!! I re-read my post, man I seem like a cheapo old git! But truth be known getting a loan wouldn't be a problem I don't think. I looked at Oxford just today, after reading about them in a magazine. They seem very professional. I said i had zero hours, which is true, although I have flown 2 trials, which probably totalled 1.5 hours, but that was a few years ago, and I never recorded them! So, back to zero hours then!
Modular, in Layman's terms, what is it; that goes for Integrated too. Sorry for my naivness...:O
It is my dream, but it seems so Goddamn hard to achieve, yet i haven't even bothered to get off my a***!
fATPL would be full ATPL would it?
I guess you all know what you're talking about, but I feel I am missing something still!
I enroll (if accepted) into say Oxford. I then choose whether to go Mod/Int course. Which then is the best thing to do then, a fATPL from scratch? What would that entail exactly? Is the fATPL a test to be sat, or is it an actual license, like getting the PPL?
Seriously confused!! Really sorry, I know this has all been done before, but for me it would help loads if someone could, hmm, pave the way?!
What does one do? I want to fly for an airline. I need an ATPL for that, or is the CPL suffice? IR is a definate, ME too if I want to fly a twin or bigger. MCC if I want some sort of comradryship up front. So, do I go to Oxford, do the fATPL course, get the ME and IR afterwards, or is it all in the price. WOW, I'm exhausted!
BTW, I am pretty knowledgable when it comes to aircraft, if that should ever help.

Would really like some answers please. Is the fATPL as good or better as the CPL/IR? What has the better chances for hiring? Does the fATPL include the IR, or any other rating/license for that matter?
Basically, from what I've understood, the PPL is a no-no? Get it in the course from say, Oxford? Surely, I wont be saving money getting it prior any course, or am I wrong? Is, like MCC, ME something i should worry about after, if luckily enough, graduating?
Another point here; what are the airlines after, perhaps this could make it easier for me to grasp! Say, EZY are recruiting... Do they want 737 rated pilots only? ie, would someone without a TR get in? How does one go about getting type-rated? Ooh, many questions, must sleep, wife's nagging!

[Andy_R]

Modular = train one module at a time (budget £40 - 45k)

Integrated = train from zero hours to fATPL in one go (budget £60k plus)

fATPL = a frozen Airline Transport Pilots Licence, unfrozen when you reach 1500 hours. Not an actual licence as such, but the summary of your achievement in obtaining PPL, CPL, IR, ME, MCC.

For those with less funds available, best go modular, i.e. PPL, night, hour building whilst doing ATPL Theory exams (14 in total) by Distance Learning or attending a residential course, CPL, IR, ME and finally MCC.

For a JAR (European) licence the IR has to be completed in UK (or at least the flight test).

To fly for an airline you need the fATPL, not just the CPL. You also need to stand out from the crowd if possible by having more than just the minimum required hours.


And as has been stated the PPL is most definitely NOT a no-no. Everybody starts with that one. Everybody.

You can buy a type rating (from £20k I think) but what on? Your example of EZY have both Boeing and Airbus mixed fleet.

One final point. We all start somewhere and god knows I've asked some daft questions on here.... But, if it is your dream, you do need to get off your backside as you say, and do what is very basic research. Read these forums and you will glean so much info it's unreal. An aspiring commercial pilot really ought to know what EZY fly - look at their website. The confusion with Fatpl's etc is ok cos I didn't have a clue what they stood for and you will always find some help on here if needed, but I have found, as have many others, that it is better to ask questions after researching and needing clarification or opinions on a particular path to go down for example.

Good luck

[pa28biggles]

For a JAR (European) licence the IR has to be completed in UK (or at least the flight test).

I am sure that it doesn't. You can complete the whole IR course in Spain for example. :)

[BEagle]

Lump Jockey, have a look at this site:

http://www.gapan.org/career/FOGPaper2.pdf

It's the Guild of Air Pilots and Air Navigators' paper "So you want to be an airline pilot" written by Capt Ralph Kohn, and will hopefully give you all the information you want. Quite a large .pdf file, but well worth the wait!

Good luck!

[Colin Monkfish]

Modular.............. for tossers

[Flypuppy]

Fantastic intellectual post from a fish.

The IR can be completed in any of the approved JAA countries as it is a rating, not a licence. For example, if you do your CPL in the UK you could complete the IR in Holland

[FlyingForFun]

Modular.............. for tossersQuite. :rolleyes: So nice to see a well-reasoned argument. :confused:

FFF
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[Bealzebub]

Started flying at 17. CPL at 19. First flying job at 19, First Airline job at 22. 757 Captain at 29. Now middle age same company for the last 19 years. Married, kids at private school, boat, big house on the south coast, 3 new cars, six figure salary...... Hmmm I know I have been very fortunate in my career, but I came up what would now be the "modular" route. In those days we were often called "self improvers" ( they were right, we did !).

So Colin Monkfish I can't quite figure out what you mean ? Perhaps you were being reflectively incisive ?

[englishal]

Don't get your PPL, you'll only be wasting your money when it comes to your CPL/IR. On my course at Oxford Aviation (OAT) we have five pilots with full PPLs and they have only been given a refund for 3 hours flying, despite the fact they have over 80 hours logged
Oh deary me, and these people will be flying us around the skies. It makes me very nervous.

Me, I started flying in 2000, at 31 I think, such a long time ago. Anyway, to cut a long story short, now I have CPL Multi IR...ok, not a JAA one, but an FAA one, but it suits me, I have had offers of work, my Mrs in a yank, and I've probably spend around $40,000 on flying, and had such a laugh.......go for it and good luck!

EA:D

[Lump Jockey]

THANKS all again! Some excellent points that I'll remember. Cloud 69, thanks for your input too, nicely put, thanks for the time. BTW, I do know what EZY fly, could probably tell you exactly how many aircraft they have had, have got now, and are going to get. I just used that particular company for reference sake. fATPL...well, I kicked myself at work today, hours after posting, because of course, it's FROZEN ATPL! Derrr! Silly little things seem to slip my mind more than the more important stuff sometimes! Thanks again.
So, in summary, (here he goes again!!), I could do the ATPL course, modular or integrated, depending on, and that would cover the PPL, IR, ME, CPL and MCC? Or is the MCC and/or any other part not included? This will probably set my head straight once and for all if someone could answer this single question! If I do the ATPL course, does it cover the lot? Or do I need to "add" to it?
You are all very priviledged to have such fantastic careers, I take my hat off to each and every one of you! I'm sure, well positive in fact, that you all deserve it, and enjoy it thoroughly. Next time you're up there, don't feel you're doing it for a bunch of ungratefuls, cos some of us envy and appreciate you work immensely.

[pa28biggles]

Or is the MCC and/or any other part not included?
I have seen a few courses on offer, and they don't include the MCC. However, you may find some courses that do. The cost of the MCC varies, generally costing around £2000.
An example of a cheaper MCC is at Multiflight, they normally charge £2000, but they will charge £1000 for the MCC on the condition that you have completed your ME and CPL/IR with them. You may find companies that charge £1000 unconditionally. However you can go to Aerofan in Spain, they do a few MCC courses (different aircraft types). An example is the MCC on a 757 in the fixed base and full motion simulator, costing 7500 Euros.
PA28.

[Send Clowns]

Lump Jockey

You are right about the construction of the frozen ATPL (PPL, more flying, groundschool, CPL and IR), but that is the modular course. The integrated course has all the training completed in a single, long block, mixing flying training and groundschool and with no intermediate qualifications, just stages of training with proficiency checks. This gives you only about 170 hours flight training compared with a modular course at around 230 hours for most people, but due to the extra resources the school has to show to gain approvals it costs at least £10,000 more to go through an integrated course.

The integrated is also less flexible, as they usually require payment up front and the rules make it hard to change course if you find that you don't like the training provider. You also need to spend the whole year and do the flying and groundschool in the same place or perhaps part of it abroad in a specific location, when you might prefer to be close to home for one section but feel that another section is better taught elsewhere. Each module of a modular course can be taken wherever you prefer.

BA do say they won't take anyone straight out of a modular course, and nor will Emirates but as neither takes many low-hour, unsponsored pilots I am not sure how much benefit the integrated student gets. At your age especially that should not be a consideration!

If you have any specific questions that you feel that I (as an employee of a school that runs all the modular courses but no integrated training) can answer without bias then feel free to send me a private message or ask directly here. I have completed the whole modular training and I teach PPL flying and ATPL groundschool, so know the system fairly well.

If you want to know more about integrated training I am sure that the instructor who posts as Oxford Blue would answer any questions - he works for Oxford.