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career girl
19th Feb 2004, 04:05
Hi ya.

Do you guys have any advise on what training course a wanna-be pilot should go for?

Modular or Integrated?

Do airline companies really prefer their pilots to have been trained under the integrated course?

Any recommendations on where to train?

Appreciate your help!

scroggs
19th Feb 2004, 06:51
There are many good schools in the UK and overseas. Those that specialise in integrated courses will recommend integrated to you, and quote unsubstantiated arguments that 'the airlines prefer integrated graduates'. Those that specialise in modular will put forward equally strong arguments that modular is the way to go.

Well, let's get one thing straight: there is no inherent advantage in an integrated course. Airlines have no real interest in how you obtain your licence beyond ascertaining that you did it legally and through a recognised school. Don't be swayed by implications at certain symposia that some airlines might prefer graduates of certain schools. For a start, the airlines making these suggestions are not recruiting - now or in the near to medium future. Secondly, there is no evidence that these suggestions are true - but the mere suggestion might benefit one or two schools! :suspect:

There are still one or two old sweats in the industry that equate integrated with the old, and then-preferred, 509 course, and modular with the self-improver route. There are some in the current school system that would rather these old sweats were not disabused of their misunderstanding!

So, what's the answer? Basically, it's entirely down to your personal circumstances. If you wish to go from zero to fATPL in a year to 18 months, and you have a spare 60,000 quid (or more) available, then integrated may be for you. If you need to keep earning wherever and whenever possible while taking extended breaks to further your training, then modular is the way to go.

There are 'enhanced' integrated courses available through the major schools (for another 20K or so!) which claim to prepare you more thoroughly for the transition to airline employment. As yet, I've seen little evidence of their efficacy, and the schools aren't exactly trumpeting their long list of successes, so the jury is still out on these as far as I am concerned.

Before you start any training with any school, go and get yourself some flying experience to see if you really do like it as much as you think you will, and get a Class 1 medical. I recommend you also do a GAPAN aptitude test (I believe Cranfield offer a similar one) to see if you're likely to fail through terminal lack of co-ordination or not!

Lastly, don't sign up for any course that requires you to pay up front. Ensure that they either accept monthly payments (preferably by credit card) or operate an 'escrow' account which keeps your money safe in the event of their going bust. Talk to students of your chosen school(s); see what they really think of the place that's taken all their momey - too many schools are very cavalier in their treatment of their customers.

Above all, remember to have fun and enjoy it!

Hope this helps!

Scroggs

Send Clowns
19th Feb 2004, 07:08
As a specialist in modular training (or at least one stage of the process) I feel I must add one thing to prevent misapprehension of what Mr Scroggs has said. Although an integrated course nearly always takes a year to 18 months as Scroggs implies, and many people take longer to complete modular training due to their own home circumstances there is no reason that the latter need take much longer. Many people choose to run straight through the training. This takes around 12-18 months given the same dedication. The only real extra is a little more flying, but as the hour building can be largely independent of a school to your own programme it can be completed more quickly.

Flypuppy
19th Feb 2004, 08:16
The best place for flight training is where YOU feel most comfortable. You are going to be spending alot of time and money with a particular training provider, so it is important to be sure that you are going to feel comfortable there, especially when you have those "off days" that will inevitably happen.

Most recognised? Every school produces pilots with the same licence, which has been examined to the same standard. Regardless of whether it is Modular or Integrated. So, depite what some school's marketing people will tell you, it shouldn't make any difference which school you go to, be it modular or integrated. Some schools *may* have connections with airlines. Modular is generally more flexible and often a more cost effective way of training.

Do some background research, narrow down which schools you think offer what you are looking for, do a search on here, then go and visit the schools personally.

Sponsorships are few and far between. Try Atlantic Airlines at Coventry, they have the Fuglie scheme which requires you to have a PPL and a Class 1 medical. If you fit the profile you could try applying to The Air League (http://www.airleague.co.uk/scholarships.html) for one of their bursaries.

If you havent already done so, take some PPL lessons and make sure you like flying. Also get your Class 1 medical as soon as is practically possible.

For finance, do a search for HSBC on PPRuNe. Expect to budget between £45,000 and £60,000 for a modular course or £65,000 to £80,000 for an Integrated course.




Some Do's and Don'ts

DO

Do make up your own mind. This must be something that you want to do.
Do buy a copy of Clive Hughes' excellent guide to getting a professional licence.
Do make sure you like flying. Take a 30/45/60 minute trial flying lesson. Explain to the instructor what you are planning.
Do get a Class One Medical as soon as practically possible. It costs approx 400 quid, but you arent going to do any flying without it...
Do talk to current and ex-pupils from the schools you are interested in. (Make sure the marketing people are not around).
Do consider Modular over Integrated.
Do a search on PPRuNe for the schools you are considering
Do build at least a 20% contingency into any financial plan you come up with.

DON'T

Don't go into this without a back up plan if it all goes wrong.
Don't base your choice solely on the glossy brochures and glib promises of marketing men/women.
Don't base your choice solely on the opinions of posters on PPRuNe.
Don't pay for anything up front. Ever.
Don't expect things to go exactly according to plan.
Don't expect a job straight after finishing training. Have that back up plan ready.
Don't expect to get through the training without at least one episode of major frustration and/or depression.


Best of luck.

Thundercat
19th Feb 2004, 20:37
A question that seems to be burning alot right now is "is there more benefit to training in Europe if your eventually looking for employment in Europe?" Clearly there are many very 'interesting' training opportunities (integrated and modular) worldwide that are JAA licensed, and more often than not at a lower price than the equivalent European option.

It has been argued that flying in Europe has important differences to flying anywhere else in the world and going elsewhere, although possibly cheaper, won't put you in such a good position later for employment. What is the consensus of opinion (from an employment prospective) on training in or outside of Europe - either modular or integrated?

Thundercat.

pa28biggles
19th Feb 2004, 21:21
career girl,
There was a thread in the Interviews, jobs & sponsorship forum, asking the same question. Danny posted the following quote in that thread, I hope nobody minds me putting it here. I would recommend the modular route, and it was very inspiring to read the following.


I'd like to make a point here. Whilst I am just a line pilot with no management or training ambitions, I was directly involved with and designed the questionnaire as well as helped in the selection to recruit the 5 pilots for the PPRuNe/Astraeus B737 cadet scheme nearly two years ago. For those of you who are not familiar with the scheme, PPRuNe and Astraeus joined forces and we advertised for fATPL's who had no previous airline or jet experience to apply for selection as B737 first officers with the newly formed company.

Eligibility for application was a UK or JAA fATPL, class I medical and the right of abode and work in the EU. Just under 200 eligible pilots applied and completed the on-line questionnaire. Out of those I had to select 25 for interview and out of those 25, a team of us selected 10 for simulator assessment and 5 were offered a B737 type rating and temporary employment leading to a full time offer of employment after six months of line flying.

The five candidates who were selected have all been with Astraeus since their courses and are now seasoned and experienced B737 pilots with a varied and wide range of line flying experience on at least 3 continents. Some of them post on here from time to time with advice for those of you starting out on their careers as do others with even more experience.

My point is, at no time when I had to narrow down the field of almost 200 candidates to 25 did I take into consideration where any of the candidates had studied for their licences. As long as they had the licence they were considered and it came down to how they presented themselves in their applications. There was no scientific formula and as long as their enthusiasm, maturity, intelligence and attitude shone through then they had a chance.

Once the field was narrowed down to 25 the task became more difficult but even at this stage, where they had studied and gained their licence had no bearing. Personality, attitude and charisma were the order of the day and I don't think that any fo those traits are taught or examined at any flight training establishment. After a couple of entertaining group exercises the 25 were given two on one interviews with the same series of questions being asked as well as a chance for them to quiz us and highlight their own reasons for applying.

At this stage their flying skills and knowledge were not being evaluated. They all had the minimum requirements and had been examined by the CAA or their local aviation authorities and had at least the minimum standards as they all had been issued with a fATPL. There were eight of us doing the selection. We were a mix of airline and non-airline people including an air-traffic controller, current and ex-airline pilots, some with training experience, some with management experience and some with no flying experience. We were looking for all-round, personable individuals who were likely to fit in with others already in the business. They had to be people we could be confined with for 10 or more hours at a time in a small cockpit and they had to be determined and highly motivated in order to complete a gruelling B737 type rating course.

Out of the 25 candidates who made it to the interviews we selected 10 for simulator assessment. They ranged in age from very early twenties to early forties. They included some who had studied at the big schools on fully approved courses and others who had studied mostly at home on correspondence courses and flight trained wherever they could get the best deal. It was probably more difficult narrowing down to the 10 than it was selecting the final five as flying skill and ability were always going to be easier to assess. Once we were in to simulator assessment it was a case of learning ability. At this stage it is possible that the quality of flight training MAY have been able to have an influence but finally it came down to accuracy, an aptitude to learn rapidly from mistakes, mental capacity and attitude. Those candidates who hadn't had any recent or regular flying experience were easy to spot and found it much more difficult, as expected. In the end though, it was a difficult choice but the five lucky candidates have turned out to be the right choice and have all integrated well into the job.

So, as far as PPRuNe and Astraeus were concerned it was not of any benefit where you actually studied for your fATPL as long as you had a valid one. All a licence shows is that you have met the minimum standards upon examination by your local aviation authority. I'm sure that some companies believe otherwise and it probably comes down to where training management pilots did their own training. In my case I did all my studying at home with correspondence courses and my flying training was wherever I could get the best deals. One establishment for the CPL flying and a different one for the IR.

It is my belief that you have to have some experience of life other than just school and/or college/university. Some of the applicants had very little if any life experience. Others had personalities that hindered them rather than helped them. The successful ones were those who had all round experience and abilities. Having the licence alone is not enough and unfortunately there are some people who don't realise that it takes more than just obtaining a fATPL to get a job. You also need enthusiasm, ambition, aptitude, determination, luck, a life and a personality. Now you tell me which training establishments provide most of those traits? Be honest with yourselves and make sure you have at least all those things before you even consider seriously laying out good money on your future career ambitions.


Hope this helps,
PA28

career girl
20th Feb 2004, 04:48
Appreciate your advise.

I am going to do it the more affordable way and at a school i feel comfortable at. Time to visit!

Great info there, thanx

PaddyMcGinty
21st Feb 2004, 04:59
This is an excellent thread and definately should be made a sticky. The information given here is very sound.

I'm currently undergoing the modular route and i think its excellent. I'm hoping to do it in 18 months or less and at the minute i'm ahead of schedule. It offers you more freedom for taking time out for yourself and also to vary your training a little bit. I can't say whether it's better than integrated but I'm really enjoying my training and I think thats what it's all about.

I have to stress that you get 30-60mins of an introductory flight before you consider making a career of flying and then if you do think it's for you get your Class1 medical. Once you have those done you can focus on your training.

I would also strongly recommend getting Clive Hughes "Guide to becoming a Professional Pilot" as it answers so many questions you will need to ask in your training and only costs about 25quid. Best of luck, happy flying.


Steve

Harves
21st Feb 2004, 09:38
Hi career girl

I think once again Scroggs has summed it all up in my view, and I am sure we have spoken about this before, but incase that is not the case, drop me a mail because I have experienced various forms of training in my climb to F ATPL.

If I don't hear from you, good luck and enjoy!!

Harves

timzsta
2nd Mar 2004, 04:10
I thought I would add my story so far and the factors that influenced my decisions.

I had boyhood dreams of becoming a pilot but as a teenager I lacked self confidence and thought that "only really special people can become pilots". Well that is probably what a very small minority of pilots think, most I have met are down to earth guys and girls and probably dont think of themselves in that way. I suppose simply put they are confident, but not arrogant. I think there is something about that in the Human Factors syllabus somewhere.

So aged 18 I went of to the Britannia Royal Naval College and trained as a Warfare Branch Officer. During my training I got to see some Fighter Controllers at work and decided that was the route for me. As fate would have it I became the Fighter Controller of a Sea Harrier squadron and I began to realise that I too could become a Pilot. The pilot's were no different from me - just motivated people who had an ambition and had been prepared to work hard to achieve it. So I saved up some money and left the Navy with everyone wishing me good luck for my new career. But three months before I was due to leave 9/11 occured. I continued with my plans - never let anyone or anything stand in the way of your ambition to be a pilot.

During my last year or so in the RN I studied for my PPL examinations, and took them at a flying school at my local airport, Southend. I had also undertaken a trial flight and had the privilege to fly in the back of a Harrier T8 two seat trainer before I left the Navy, an awesome experience. I got my Class 1 and having completed the last PPL exams and my RT exam just after leaving the RN I set out to Long Beach California to do my PPL flying training. I chose a 55 hour course, with UK Flight Training.

Having completed all my ground exams before getting to the states allowed me to concentrate on flying - a big benefit it proved. Why the USA then? Cheaper simply. Fuel cheaper, aircraft cheaper and weather perfect, even in January. In fact flying conditions at that time of year are just about perfect in California. Temperature is about 20 deg typically, vis is great (in the height of summer smog is a big problem). I completed my PPL course in 3 and a half weeks and came home a week earlier then planned (the cost of changing my flight was £100 - against something like £250 for another week in the motel - the £150 will pay for 3 ATPL exam fees).

Of course now it was time to get a job again. I searched the internet and noted that KLM UK were looking for Customer Service Agents at London Stansted, about 45 mins drive from my home in Essex. I applied and got a job, full time. It was actually working as a Check In Agent for their low cost subsidurary Buzz. I can honestly say the 12 months I had with Buzz were amongst the best of my life. The people were awesome, such a great happy bunch of boys and girls working hard to deliver a bit of quality to their customers. We also enjoyed a strong social life outside off work, work hard play hard, you must relax in life, it cant all be work and study or you will go nuts! I also learnt a great deal about how an airline should and shouldn't be run. Buzz had some strengths but its weaknesses put it out of business. And having been in Frankfurt working for Buzz assisting a new handling agent the Captain on my return flight back to Stansted let me join the crew on the jumpseat. This was about a month before my first exams and was very beneficial - I got to see systems I had learnt about in use for real.

Having settled into my job at Buzz the quest for knowledge and what to do on my days off was bugging me and so I decided to begin a Distance Learning course with London Metroplitan University. My reasons for choosing them were principally that it was nearby - about 45 minutes on the train up to Fenchurch Station and then a two minute walk around the corner. That meant when it came to revision weeks I would not have the worries of finding and paying for accomodation - I could commute for the cost of about £60 for each revision week, which is about the cost of a nite in a B&B. I read about various schools on PPRUNE and the only derogatory comments about LMU were from people who had failed exams, something I was not intending to do!

So I began the Distance Learning course and after six months or so of studying I sat the first 8 exams. The course was hard work - alot to learn, and the only one who can learn it is me. I choose Distance Learning as I felt I needed to keep working to save up some more money and the market place for freshly qualified pilots in 2002 / 2003 was still very downtrodden. I was delighted to pass all eight exams, some of them with scores over 90%.

This great news was tainted by the sad news the Buzz was leaking money at an alarming rate and that low cost rival Ryanair was going to buy us out. Over a period of a few weeks it became clear that all of us in Customer Services were to loose our jobs. We made the most of the last few weeks together with some huge nights out and I am glad to say I am still in touch with a great deal off those wonderful people. I began looking for another job and found one as a Dispatcher for Servisair.

Having got another job the studies began again as I worked through the last six exam subjects. The "Navs" as the are sometimes referred are definetely the harder of the exams and it was hard work at times. But I could not have asked for more support from LMU and their staff, particularly the Distance Learning tutor Geoff Bull (who was ex RN like me) and Pete Knapp who did General Nav.

My new job was also proving very beneficial. I continued to learn new and interesting things about aviation and flying and became good friends with a number of pilots from Air Berlin and WDL (the 146 operator who was flying from them) and Hamburg International (who were flying D-AHIA an D-AHIC, 737-700s for Air Berlin). People from MyTravel and Astreaus (who were flying for Iceland Express) were also encouraging and took an interest. I even got offerend another jumpseat ride, which I snapped up. This proved beneficial once again, just a few weeks before my final exams, I payed real attention to what the autopilot was doing as I was sittting Instruments, once again it was of huge benefit.

I also completed my night rating that winter, and having a few hours in an aircraft with an Instructor greatly improved my flying, inparticular landing. My hard work studying was rewarded with another six passes - so 100% first time passes at ATPL theoreticals. With hard work and good support you can achieve success at the exams as a Distance Learner. I was delighted.

Over the preceeding few months I had been looking at which local schools to undertake my hours building / CPL and IR with. I ruled out Cabair as it ment going to either Cranfield (which meant I would incur the cost of living expenses and accomodation on top of the training costs - I simply didn't have the money) or Biggin Hill. Biggin Hill was driveable, but it was the M25 and I just couldn't face the stress of that awefull motorway everyday to go flying and I never even visited it to be perfectly honest, so I cannot say a great deal about it.

I also looked at Southend School of Flying, who took me up in the back of a Seneca when I looked around. This was the most local to home, about 20 minutes drive away. They have a good reputation and used LMU's simulators for IR training. The instructors seemed welcoming and it had the benefit of being at an airfield I was familar with.

The last place I went to was Stapleford. I actually flew there in a Cessna to talk the people there, my first landing on a grass strip. As with Southend I talked to some students and got good reports. Stapleford though for me offered three advantages over Southend. First they had simulators of their own on site - this meant if you are struggling with something on the IR course you could spend extra time in the sim - cheaper then in the aircraft by a long way. Second - no landing fees for club members at Stapleford. Each time the tyres touch the ground at Southend you are looking at about £12 to the airport, about £7 for a touch and go - and thats a lot of money over a course. Thirdly hours building was cheapest at Stapleford. It was further to drive, but this course would be more then offset against the other savings and to be honest the setup at Stapleford was the most impressive and it had an excellent reputation. Several pilots I met at work praised Stapleford, including one from as far away as Malta.

My mind was made up and I decided to leave work to start my hours builing, CPL/IR full time and that is where I am at now. The overriding things I would say you must bear in mind are that this is an expensive game and only you can put the work in. For some, they have huge amounts of money and can afford a full time integrated course at one of the big organisations. And thats fair enough, we all have different backgrounds and financial situations, that's called life. But high quality training is available at reasonable rates from smaller schools and as Scroggs pointed out (and has been re-inforced by several mates who fly commercially) - the airlines really are not interested where you trained. My best mates impressions of his interview with his first airline employer were that they wanted two things. Have I got a valid license, and is this the kind of bloke I would want to spend all day on the flight deck with and then have a pint with (and I stress A PINT, ie the singular!!) in the hotel bar on the nightstop at the end of the day?. I think that was brought out too in Danny's post that was pasted in above. Also everyones opinions and situations are different. Just because LMU or Stapleford were right for me, it doesn't mean that they are best for someone else. Everyone must make up their own mind, be comfortable with their training provider and then apply yourslef 100% to what you are doing here and now. Be that studying a subject for exams, revision for exams, a night rating course or your IR. You must have that ultimate goal of the first job in the RHS but you must not lose focus on the present as you work towards it - or you wont achive your goal.

So in a few months I should have my CPL/IR and MCC done, and then the really hard part begins - getting a job!!!!

Edited because I still can't spell.

BEagle
6th Mar 2004, 23:07
timzsta - as someone who used to fly buzz from STN-FRA, many thanks to you and all your happy gang who provided such a super service. What a shame that the wooden-footed wooden-headed ones sold out to o'Leary - but it wasn't his decision, it was theirs.

buzz did indeed provide a quality low-cost alternative and is sorely missed.

mesh
19th Mar 2004, 21:33
PA28, it would be interesting to note what backgrounds the 5 you chose came from ie were they modular/integrated, where did they study etc? They may have sellected 3 Cabair/2 Oxford all integrated for all we know. If you have details I would be interested to see them

Cheers

M

Flypuppy
21st Mar 2004, 14:55
Mesh,

I know one of the five who was selected and he was someone who followed a modular course through a number of different training providers.

You should also take note of what Danny wrote in the quote from PA28 (it wasn't PA28 who made the final selection):

My point is, at no time when I had to narrow down the field of almost 200 candidates to 25 did I take into consideration where any of the candidates had studied for their licences. As long as they had the licence they were considered and it came down to how they presented themselves in their applications. There was no scientific formula and as long as their enthusiasm, maturity, intelligence and attitude shone through then they had a chance.

MorningGlory
10th May 2004, 11:32
Career Girl,

To keep it short and sweet; I completed a modular course at Stapleford Flight Centre last year, before that I had completed my groundschool elsewhere and done some initial flying in the UK and USA; I am now flying 73's. Modular made no difference to me..

Best of luck!