A319 Wing Surface Contamination

[Big Pistons Forever]

I was recently a passenger on a Air Canada A319. At CYUL the aircraft was towed to the gate from somewhere else on the ramp. My question concerns what is an acceptable amount of visible contamination. This aircraft had a visible coating of frost on all the spoiler panels and a small band of frost across both the the flaps and the ailerons directly behind the spoilers ( with the flaps in the fully retracted position ). I queried a FA about this and she phoned the cockpit. She then relayed from the captain that he did not consider deicing was required. Frankly I was not too happy but the takeoff and initially climb seemed normal. I am interested to hear from Airbus drivers on whether my concerns was valid:confused:

[beardy]

IMHO your concerns were valid, thanks for raising them here, we can all learn. Would you now do us all a favour and raise your concerns with the Flight Safety Manager of the airline. Unless the topic is aired within the airline similar situations will re-occur.

[DBate]

I have to agrre to what Beardy said - your concerns were indeed valid.

Here the passage from my OM-B:
'A pilot shall not take off in an airplane that has:
a) frost, snow, slush or ice on any propeller, windshield, or power plant intallation or to airspeed, altimeter, rate of climb or flight attitude instrument systems;

b) snow, slush or ice on the wings or stabilizer or control surfaces or any frost on the upper surfaces of wings or stabilizer or control surfaces.'

Furthermore:

'All surfaces have to be free of frost, ice, slush and snow as well as water accumulation with the following exceptions:
- Takeoff with light coatings of frost up to 3 mm in thickness on the lower wing surface due to cold fuel is permissible.

- A thin coating of hoar frost is acceptable on the surface of the fuselage (body) only, provided all vents or ports are clear.'

So - no frost on the upper wing allowed.

So long, DBate

[flynverted]

Dbate,
Is that specific to Airbus? Reason I ask is we are allowed up to 1/8 inch of frost on control surfaces/fuselage our 727-200F's. Matter of fact, last night we kicked out 16 727's covered with frost, and none requested de-icing. Upper wing and top of fuselage were covered with heavy frost (not hoar frost)
Not questioning your post, as I'm sure you posted info available to you, but is it airline, type, or industry standard?
I've been de-icing for 4 years now, and have seen everything from J-41 to 757 leave with snow, and/or frost, and not needing de-iced, to the same type wanting de-iced with little or no snow/ frost present.
Not questioning, just curious.
nverted

[sky9]

Flynverted
I doubt it. DBate is correct, Boeings standard instruction is 3mm on the underside of the wing due to cold soak, hoar frost on the fuselage all control surfaces and top of wing to be clear.

I made a report to Chirp some years ago, the response from an adviser to Chirp (not Peter) was that I was talking rubbish, a couple of days later the BHX accident happened. I rest my case.

[brownstar]

I would have to agree that no ice or frost contamination is allowed on the upper surfaces or leading edges of the wings.
how many crashes have been attributed to this. If the book says no ice or frost it means no ice or frost. How can you predict the lift characteristics of a contaminated wing at high angles of attack?

[JOSHUA]

Go by the ops manual and use common sense!

ie prevailing weather conditions etc

Taking off with contaminated 'upper' wing surfaces in particular just isn't worth the risk....

[DBate]

I guess it's type standard, don't know about the procedures on other types.

The passage I quoted is taken from our operations manual, supplementary procedures, chapter 'Cold Weather Operation'. I think it's an Airbus Procedure, but I have to admitt that I'm not sure on that, might be a company procedure - we got a lot of those - althougt I don't think we have company procedures in the supplementary part of the OM-B.

Tell you something: I'll check that with our technical pilot and post the reply. But that might take a while - I've got my next flight on monday.

But maybe some other Airbus pilots could share some thoughts.

So long, DBate

[SLF]

Presumably the tolerance would be greater on a lightly loaded/fuelled aircraft...?

[sky330]

<<Presumably the tolerance would be greater on a lightly loaded/fuelled aircraft...?>>

Maybe, but don't forget another item, what guarantee do you have that the icing is symetrical and not heavier on one wing than the other?? Very easy to reduce your roll margin ! Add an engine failure or a flight control problem and.....

Pilots taking off with iced wings are just taking chances!
It's both unprofessionnal and stupid.

[alexban]

No matter who builds a plane,the aerodynamics is the same!
If you have ice on the overhead of the wings and also on the controls before departure,and you have to fly in a iceing area,this could be your last flight.It happened before!
The ice will accumulate much faster,and will disrupt the airflow over the wings and controls.This will damage the lift and will increase the drag very fast.It will be like flying a brick very soon :ugh:
Some pilots think that if they see the clear sky on the departure airport ,then,it will be no problem departing with some ice on the wings.This is wrong.Sometimes,often,this ice won't fly from the plane in flight ( depending mostly of what type of ice is) and you can find iceing conditions inflight or at the destination field.
No matter what the costs are,or the delays involved,a proffessional pilot will always deice his plane.
Brgds
Alex

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have since talked to a rep from the Air Canada Flight safety deptment. He said spoiler panel frost with the rest of the wing clean is not unusual for Airbus A319/320 aircraft. He also said that the airline SOP is that the wing has to pass a quote scratch
test unquote by ground personnel before the aircraft can be dispatched without deicing. Therefore he felt that the frost I saw on the spoilers, flaps, and ailerons could not be significant. We talked for a bit more but he was adament the Air Canada won't dispatch aircraft with contaminated wings. At the end of the day however I have never been on a airline flight that took of with visible frost on the wings without getting deiced first.:hmm:
I will say however that the cabin crew were entirely professional and immediately relayed my concerns to the flight deck and briefed me on the flight crew response as well as thanking me for raising my concerns.:ok: