CPL/IR or ATPL?

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Hi

I'm new to this game, and am confused by the difference between a CPL/IR and Frozen ATPL... I'm currently nearing completion of a PPL but have considered the CPL/IR in South Africa... this seems to give you airline entry in South Africa (I think) but what about back in the UK?

All and any advice welcome.

[pa28biggles]

Here is my attempt at explaining it.
You can get a CPL/IR, by studying for the CPL ground exams, studying for the IR ground exams (I think), and doing the CPL and IR flight training (obviously you will meet the requirments to do the CPL and IR in terms of flight hours etc). Thats it. You can't get a job in the airlines, well, at least not in JAR land.
If you sit the ATPL exams, and do the CPL and IR flight training(again, obviously you will meet the requirments to do the CPL and IR in terms of flight hours etc), then you have a frozen ATPL (informally abbreviated to fATPL), which still is a CPL/IR. When you reach the requirements for an ATPL, your fATPL will be unfrozen. You can get an airline job with an fATPL, and usually airlines like you to have an MCC, although I have heard a few stories of airlines not requiring an MCC since they give you the MCC training.
You can get paid jobs with just a CPL, such as flight instructing, but you must additionally obtain a Flight Instructor's rating.
Hope this helps.

[FlyingForFun]

The reason you are confused is because there is no such thing as a "frozen ATPL".

The term is commonly used (especially in JAR-land), colloquially, to mean a CPL/IR, with passes in the ATPL exams. It sometimes includes an MCC too, depending who you talk to.

Under the JAR system, if you want to do a CPL and an IR, you can either do the CPL exams and the IR exams (and end up with a CPL/IR), or do the ATPL exams (and end up with a fATPL). There is absolutely no reason why anyone would want to do both the CPL exams and the IR exams - you will end up having to do a couple of exams twice, and therefore have more work to do. What's more, once you're ready to upgrade to an ATPL, you will need to do all the exams again. So the only sensible way of doing this is to do the ATPL exams - so there is no question that you should aim for a "fATPL" if you are going for a JAR license.

I don't know how this translates into the South African system, but I suspect it's not directly relevant at all.

FFF
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[pa28biggles]

FlyingForFun I am misunderstanding you.:)
you can either do the CPL exams and the IR exams (and end up with a CPL/IR), or do the ATPL exams (and end up with a fATPL)

is absolutely no reason why anyone would want to do both the CPL exams and the IR exams - you will end up having to do a couple of exams twice, and therefore have more work to do.

But you just said that you could do the CPL and IR exams:confused:

So the only sensible way of doing this is to do the ATPL exams - so there is no question that you should aim for a "fATPL" if you are going for a JAR license.

Totally agree. I would expect that anyone just sitting the CPL exams and not the ATPL exams would be a wannabe flight instructor for example, and would have not interest in getting in to the airlines.

[FlyingForFun]

But you just said that you could do the CPL and IR examsI said you could do it that way - i.e. there's nothing in the JARs to prevent you from doing so. I then went on to say that there is really no reason why anyone would do it that way. Sorry if I didn't make that clear... but I don't think you've misunderstood me at all, I think you've got it right.

FFF
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[Tinstaafl]

To elaborate on FFF's info:

If your goal is never to work for an airline, or in some occupation that won't need an ATPL eg flight instruction, then you need only the CPL & maybe the IR. Do those exams & flight tests and away you go.


If your goal is to work for an airline or elsewhere that mandates an ATPL OR gain an ATPL for some other reason, then you can do it the easy or the hard way.

Hard way: Pass CPL & IR exams. Do CPL & IR flight training & tests. Pass ATPL exams. When you have both the ATPL exams passed AND have the required minimum experience you may apply for the issue of an ATPL.

Note 1: Some exams are repeated between CPL & IR. Not sure if you get credit for them & only need to them once.

Note 2: All exams have a validity period and then your credit in them lapses. Don't do the ATPL exams until you're at least within a year or two of getting an IR. Keeping the IR current extends the validity period of your ATPL exams credits.

Easy way ;) : Pass ATPL exams. Do CPL & IR flight training & tests. When you have the required minimum experience you may apply for the issue of an ATPL. In JAR-land ATPL exams automatically give you credit for the CPL & IR exams.

Note: You will have ~2 or 3 years from passing the ATPLs to get the CPL/IR. After that your exam credits lapse. As per the 'hard way', once you have the IR, keeping it current extends the credits period of your ATPL passes.

[Dufwer]

I think TSandPSintheGREEN has asked a very short question that requires a very long answer. Not that I'm about to do that however.

TSandPSintheGREEN, my advice is get familiar with LASORS (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/LASORS.PDF) and the Air Navigation Order (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP393.PDF) . Notice I didn't say it would be easy! All the answers to your questions are in there somewhere.

To me personally the most important difference between a CPL and an ATPL is the following clause in the ANO with regards to privilages of a CPL :-
(c) act as pilot in command on a public transport flight of any aeroplane included in Part XII of the licence certificated for single pilot operation;
In other words with a CPL you can't be the Pilot-in-Command of a multi-crew aircraft. That is where the ATPL comes in.

D

[TSandPSintheGREEN]

Thanks very much all, for your answers and for all those acronyms! Fantastic. So basically, there's no point doing a CPL unless you want to rule yourself out of an airlines job (or basically repeat a lot of it in the ATPL exams)... So why doesn't everybody just go the ATPL route : Is it more expensive? To do the CPL/IR in RSA looks to be about R200K (£14K)... Don't know if this is good or bad?:O

[pa28biggles]

You still need to do the CPL/IR flying training, but you need to sit the ATPL exams, not the CPL exams. This is the way that most people that want to get into the airlines do it in JAR land. The ATPL exams 'superceed' the CPL exams, thats why you don't need to sit the CPL exams.
You could sit the CPL exams, then do the ATPL exams, but there would be no point. It would cost more and take more time, with no advantages, if the airlines are what you are aiming for.
Hope this clears things up.

[FlyingForFun]

Ts&Ps,

I think I've found the source of your confusion. You are, I suspect, confusing the systems from various countries with each other.

What you're saying is true of the JAR system. But I think you're talking about the South African system, which is probably different.

I don't know the South African system at all. But, for comparison, here's how the US system works. Basically, everyone gets a CPL/IR. Then, when you've got enough hours, you upgrade your CPL to an ATP by doing all the necessary tests. Unlike the JAR system, the US system is designed to be used this way, and therefore this route does not involve taking the same test two or three times. There is no such concept as a "fATPL", since people do not sit any ATP exams until they are ready for an ATP. (Not even sure if there are any written exams, actually, it might just be a flying test, I'm not sure.)

If you are thinking of getting South African licenses and ratings, you need to find someone who understands the South African system and get them to explain it to you. I suspect that a CPL/IR may be the normal way to go over there, too. The JAR system is, basically, very unusual.

FFF
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[Tinstaafl]

Hahaha! "Unusual". What an interesting understatement to describe it! :hmm:


Lots of ways for a system to supply pilots.

In JAR-land, ATPL exam content has many common areas with CPL + its own extra bits. Similar to how CPL exams cover all stuff for PPL level knowledge.

In other parts of the world they're different knowledge areas. In those cases, exams for the higher licence won't cover you for the lower level ie ATPL exams passes don't also cover you for CPL exams. In the US & Oz CPL exam(s) are completely separate to ATPL exam(s).

FAA has a separate exam + a flight test for each licence. An IR doesn't lapse (has recency requirements but it still exists). ATPL includes IR privileges. The ATP flight test is essentially an IR flight test with tighter tolerances.

Oz has one or more exams & flight tests for each licence except no flight test for the ATPL. IR lapses. ATPL requires an IR for IFR ops (NB IR also needed when applying for initial issue of ATPL)

JAR has lots of exams + a flight test for every licence except no flight test for the ATPL. IR lapses. (NB IR also needed when applying for initial issue of ATPL).

In the Oz & JAR models, an applicant for an ATPL doesn't need a separate flight test since s/he will have done one within the last year (IR issue OR renewal). In the US the applicant has to do an ATP flight test because s/he may not have had any form of rating/licence test since their IR or CPL issue.