WMU - Probably The Best Training Choice Available. [Archive]

Thundercat

10th Feb 2004, 01:41

Hi all. Does anyone have any views and/or experiance of Western Michigan University as an integrated course provider? I've done a search on this site, and surprisingly there isn't that much useful feedback and certainly nothing useful recently. I understand that in 2002 they pulled the plug on the JAR syllabus in order to 're-structure'. I also understand that, prior to 9/11 they trained BA and Aer Lingus cadets amongst other sponsored programmes. Ok, initially sounds good but what's word on the street?

Can somebody tell me what the catch is? They are one of the 4 CAA approved integrated courses, seem to have a good pedigree and the course cost is $73,200. They recommend you provision an extra $13000 for food and accomodation.

Due to the current weakness of the USD, this equates to just over £40,000 for the course with an extra £7k for food and accom!! Is this not just about the best bargain the world of aviation has right now? I'm sure 40k isn't a drop in the ocean for anyone, but compared to any European option it's got be ahead of the game....hasn't it?

When things seem to good to be true they usually are, so I'm hoping that one of you guys can spot the catch....but I can't see it! You get an integrated course, for the equivalent price of modular at an approved establishment? With the saved cash (over a European integrated choice) you could go on to get an intructor's rating or do some significant hour building.

I don't want to get into the usual modular/integrated debate, BUT if you were to believe that airlines held ANY favour for integrated courses, then this should keep the guys arguing modular and the guys arguing integrated happy shouldn't it? You cover all bases - minimize cost and maximise employment potential.

So come on someone - tell me how naive I'm being, and that I need to spend another £30k on an integrated course or stick to a modular one! Is WMU worth it or not?

oxford blue

10th Feb 2004, 16:28

Suggest you read the following thread, if you haven't already:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=58025&perpage=15&highlight=WMU%20african%20AND%20american&pagenumber=1

It was all very veiled, because it is evident that some of the contributors who knew the full story were fearful of losing their jobs.

OK, it's over a year old, but it takes a long time to repair that sort of damage.

I know nothing myself - just what I read - but I suggest it needs very careful enquiry before you commit to anything.

If it was that fantastic a deal, everyone would be doing it.

It's a general rule that if something sounds too good to be true - it probably is!

scroggs

10th Feb 2004, 18:13

We should point out here that Oxford Blue is very closely associated with a certain large, very well-known flight school in Britain, and his opinions may not be totally unbiassed!

That said, I can make no comment on WMU to further your decision making process, I'm afraid. As OB suggests, great deals have a habit of not meeting your expectations, so research your choice of school very carefully. I've no doubt that others may post or PM you their experiences of WMU.

Scroggs

Jonny

10th Feb 2004, 18:42

Thundercat... are you me?

I logged in to ask a very similar question!

From what i can gather WMU is a very good school. In fact i spoke to the head of recruitment at a large British Airline last week and he recommended it along with Oxford and Jerez. I think the thread highlighted by Oxford Blue is just regarding the difficulties the college had following 9/11 and loss of business from airline sponsored cadets etc. The fact that it has now reopened must be a positive sign.

I'd love to hear some 1st hand reports of training there though. I know there are probs with weather in the winter though whether it is any worse than the conditions in England i don't know.

Anyone there at the mo' care to divulge their experiences?

geraldn

10th Feb 2004, 19:30

HI ALL,just a few observations i came up with;WMU seem to offer a good deal as pointed out by all ,but one has to keep in mind that FOOD AND ACCOMODATION are not included and there are the RETURN FLIGHTS TO THE USA that one has to consider,all these would amount to a considerable sum.If u take JEREZ although it seems like a fortune at 92000 EUROS it will make more sense when u consider that food and accomodation is included, plus flights would be much cheaper to your destination if u live in Europe.Anyway just my humble opinions ,good luck to all.

Ninety-Nines

10th Feb 2004, 21:42

You cannot lose with the weak dollar as it is!

$1.8582 to the pound is fab and will prob discount the flight -

I do not know the prices at WMU but taking an average of $5000.00 for a PPL you are saving almost $400.00 dollars.....not to mention the discount if you go all the way through based on $30,000.00 would be more than $6,700.00.

As for the food, you need to eat wherever you are:} Whilst costs vary greatly throught the US for food, I would say that MI is not the most expensive area.

Good luck....

Nikki

Thundercat

11th Feb 2004, 07:10

Some interesting feedback, but as yet no-one with any direct experiance of WMU as a training institution.

Scroggs - thank you for pointing out Oxford Blue's possibly slightly less than objective view point.

Oxford Blue - yes I had read that thread - however, it is now almost 2 YEARS OLD. While I agree that losing 5 instructors is a blow, I don't believe it isn't recoverable in that period.

Jonny - err, no somehow I don't think I'm you...Dr. Jekyll! I have heard equally positive things about WMU, but can it compete with the likes of Jerez, Cabair and OATS? If it turns out to be as good as it looks, I may see you there!

Geraldn - take another look at my first post. At the current exchange, the course comes in at UNDER £40k. Even if you eat a lot of pies and drink a lot of ginger beer - food & accom is unlikely to cost more than 8k. Admittedly, the flights to and from the US would be more than hopping back and forth to Jerez. However, would it surprise you that the average price of return ticket to Detroit is just £300. Provision 6 flights for the course = £1800. Even then your only just touching on £50k. That's still around 14-15k cheaper than Flight Training Europe or OATS. That's alot of money in my book.

Ninety-Nines - we seem to be on the same page here! This has got to be a good thing surely. There aren't many positives for us Wannabees right now, but this is as close to a gift-horse as they come isn't it?!!

So who's got some first hand experience to report? I know Michigan has some cold winters and that can hold things up a bit - but is that enough to discount it? Keep the thoughts coming :ok:

Thundercat.

FlyingForFun

11th Feb 2004, 16:47

Even then your only just touching on £50k. That's still around 14-15k cheaper than Flight Training Europe or OATSTrue... but you could save another 14-15k by doing a modular course at any one of a number of establishments (or even a combination of them if you prefer).....

FFF
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Jonny

11th Feb 2004, 17:38

I hope you're not trying to start an argument there! This thread is actually about the 4 approved integrated courses. Can you really go the modular route for 20-25K?

by the way Thundercat.. check your PMs.

silverknapper

11th Feb 2004, 18:00

Jonny

What is 50-14 or 15. Sure as hell isn't 25!!! You'll have problems if you don't sort that out mate!

moo

11th Feb 2004, 18:04

well 50K - 15K = 35K and even so, that would be a tough budget for a modular course. It has been suggested by WWW that approx. £40000 is a more realistic figure for modular. Anyway, my contribution to all this is to say ahng on for a while people, economists reckon the dollar could easily go 2 : 1 with the pound. THEN, it will be a bargin!! In fact, if it does go to that rate and you aren't ready to train, there are several ways to open up a dollar account in the UK - fill your account with dollars at 2 : 1 when (eventualy) the rate gets back to a more sustainable level, buy your pounds back and make money for nothing!!

at least in theory!! :}

FlyingForFun

11th Feb 2004, 18:07

I hope you're not trying to start an argument there! This thread is actually about the 4 approved integrated coursesJonny,

Aside from your problem with basic mental arithmetic, which silverknapper has already pointed out ;) you are quite correct, and I apologise - I probably shouldn't have raised that subject here because it's not related to the question being asked, it's just that it seemed almost relevant given Thundercat's comment.

FFF
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Jonny

11th Feb 2004, 18:14

I deducted 14 or 15k from 50 = 35 to 36K and then subtracted another 10 or 15k for accomodation and food which equals 21 to 26K. I rounded this down to 20 - 25.

That's all correct isn't it?

Please tell me where I've gone wrong 'cos i can't see anywhere :(

And if you're baseing the costs exempt from food and accomodation:

WMU integrated course = $73200= £39000 (accordng to current exchange rate)

Thats the same sort of price that it has become apparent you are talking about.

Thats before you've considered the cheap cost of living in Michigan ($13000 = £7000).

Send Clowns

11th Feb 2004, 20:46

Your own factors will make this choice for you, Thundercat - it might well be that in your case this is "... the best training choice available" but for most people it won't be. Choice of school is very personal, hence the great variety available and my recommendation always to visit several, of different types.

I also work for a UK school, by the way. The reason I put this forward is that when I was looking for a course 4 years ago I found it very difficult getting through the maze of "integrated" and "modular" courses. At the time due to the more normal rate of the dollar WMU was not cheap at all - about £52,000 compared to the £35,000 I spent at SFT (would have been £38,000 from scratch). People who have been persuaded one way repeating the schools' propoganda for their choice without any backing will not help others choose.

Why do you say this "...maximises employment potential..."? Remember that when they were actually recruiting first-job pilots even BA accepted modular courses. Unless you are looking at BA or Emirates in the current climate then there is no significant effect on employment prospects between integrated and modular.

Jonny

11th Feb 2004, 21:01

Ooh, whoudathunk the thread would take this turn? ;)

Anyway, where's the apology from you 3 up there?

Send Clowns

11th Feb 2004, 21:07

Fair enough, Jonny :D but as I said, I had these problems to contend with way back in the beginning of JAA. The propoganda from a school, that said it was the best due to some of the factors talked about here, did not help. Fortunately I did not fall for it - with what I know now I realise that that school had especially great problems with groundschool, and other issues they did not admit to me.

Jonny

11th Feb 2004, 21:17

I quite agree Send Clowns. Its good that you're warning of the evils of marketing depts and myths associated with these places. If i hadn't read the thoughts and experiences of you and others on here i might be well on my way to Oxford with a huge HSBC loan and probable eventual disappointment and financial strife.

I'm just laughing at the predictablity of so many threads like this... no criticism at all.

scroggs

11th Feb 2004, 21:38

Clowns is right; there is nothing intrinsically superior about an integrated course, whoever runs it. Don't be fooled into buying one because you've been told the airlines prefer them, frankly, that's bollox! All the airlines care about is your licence and your experience. There are one or two recruiters who still think we're in the era of 509 courses and self-improvers, but they're rapidly dying out - fortunately.

The only reason to take an integrated course is because it suits your circumstances better than modular does, period.

Scroggs

Thundercat

11th Feb 2004, 21:49

Not to start a bun fight but Jonny's figures are in the correct ball-park. If you take the course cost at today's EC's ($1.86=£1) then the course cost is approx £38k. Let's compare apples with apples (ie without accom costs etc). Flying for fun made the statement that a modular route could save £14-15k off this price, which makes it in the £25k region. Nice if you can but show me where and the course breakdown Flyingforfun.

And already I find myself being dragged into the usual modular/integrated rib poking! 'Predicatable' as Jonny rightly described it. So come on guys, don't use this thread as the usual verbal fencing match. I've made a statement to debate, with facts if possible. Conjecture is good, but in context.

And Send Clowns, I'm not trying to sway people any particular way, I'm trying to make a judgement on institution with the help of the experiences of those in this forum. After all, isn't that what it's all about? I agree - a training institution is a personal choice, but at some point ALL of us are swayed by particular factors, usually cost. OATS may well be my best suited personal choice which may fit everything I want a training organisation to have, but the critical point is NOT EVERYONE CAN AFFORD IT!

Furthermore - I'm not saying an integrated course necessarily maximises employment potential - there doesn't seem any convincing proof either way. I was merely saying, if there is any truth to that rumour, then it's a extra benefit of choosing WMU without being penalised on cost for taking that choice!

Any one got a view on that?

JohnnyPharm

12th Feb 2004, 00:46

thundercat

If you read the web-site on WMU it says you can only make two return trips home throughout the course, so forget about your six trips home. The nearest airport to fly into is Kalamazoo which has direct services from O'hare on a CRJ.

Next courses are April and Sept, so you had better get your skates on if you are thinking of applying.

Anyway trying to get a sched flight from Jerez to home 6 times a year would be very expensive. Probably same price as getting to WMU. Would be best getting a cheap charter from Malaga.

Jonny

12th Feb 2004, 01:03

Almost right. Of the three 2-week breaks you may only use 2. There is however a week off for Christmas so you could make 3 trips home.

Can't believe i bothered to post that.

Are you thinking of going in April JohnnyPharm?

Send Clowns

12th Feb 2004, 06:59

Then perhaps a title of "...probably the best training choice available" and comments on employment prospects were not helpful. That is what I meant about spreading the schools' propoganda! I would not even suggest you spread any propoganda my own employer came out with (I cannot think of any, except that you chould visit a few schools before choosing and we'd prefer if ours was one) unless you had good argument to support them.

no sponsor

12th Feb 2004, 17:05

Well said Scroggs.

I met the CEO of a large integrated school in the UK very recently and he said exactly that.

Nevertheless, WMU does look like a very good deal. They will be at the flyer exhibition in March.

But, don't forget that what goes up will come down. Not very long ago (24 months ago) the reverse was true of $ versus £. So unless you are going to start training very soon, it might be all very academic. Don't forget that unless you want to pay all up-front (not advised) then rates will normalise over the coming 6-12 months, so you must budget for future changes in your calculations if you plan to pay from a UK credit card. Furthermore, this also means that every other school in the US is being affected, so modular courses in the US must be as cheap as chips. (If you take Scroggs point of view, as do I).

FlyingForFun

12th Feb 2004, 17:42

Not quite true, No Sponsor. Nothing to stop you buying a load of dollars when you think the price has hit rock bottom, and keeping them either in a USD bank account, or stashed under the bed(!) until you're ready to hand them over to a flying school! The exchange rate movements really shouldn't force you to pay up front.

FFF
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Thundercat

13th Feb 2004, 01:39

Thanks for that reminder JohnnyPharm - the restriction on leave (same at FTE Jerez I believe) means that you cannot make constant hops home even if you wanted to. So there's an enforced saving! ;)

Send Clowns; I emphatically disagree. Your understanding and mine for the use of this forum are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum. I am not spreading propaganda, because for that I would have to have an intent to market or create 'spin' for WMU. I clearly don't. I am another wannabee trying to attain a good sample of views on this particular establishment at this time. I am quite simply making a statement to encourage some interesting and experienced responses. Unfortunetely your views do not seem to be based on anything other than "don't promote another establishment because it may mislead or take business away from mine!". You're missing the point. I'm in the process, along with many others, of making a decision based on a myriad of factors. If you don't think my suggestion is a good one, fine, explain why it isn't and where perhaps I should look at also/instead! Give others who read these dialogues the credit to come to their own conclusions. If the facts are wrong, please dispute them, if not, try being helpful!!

FFF - Good plan. If the dollar goes 2:1 it's a wise decision to invest regardless of any training plans! :)

Send Clowns

13th Feb 2004, 01:46

No we are not at opposite ends, I was agreeing that yours was a worthy aim. I then pointed out that describing WMU as "probably the best training choice available" and implying that integrated courses gave better employment prospects were not in line with that aim.

Thundercat

13th Feb 2004, 03:31

I don't want to get into the usual modular/integrated debate, BUT if you were to believe that airlines held ANY favour for integrated courses, then this should keep the guys arguing modular and the guys arguing integrated happy shouldn't it? You cover all bases - minimize cost and maximise employment potential.

Clearly Send Clowns you do want to get in the same old modular/integrated debate. In my initial post, I actually used the words above ie 'IF you WERE to believe that airlines held ANY favour....' - I never implied or said they did, I was merely repeating a common debate on this site.

In fact, for the record, I don't believe that integrated courses hold any favour with the airlines at the present time and there certainly doesn't seem to be any evidence to show that they do. It is indeed a personal choice. However, those who may of liked to have been in the market for an integrated course and had to look at other options due to the prohibitive cost, now have a real choice. Again, these are my opinions and are not intended to mislead but hopefully people with real knowledge will lend advice....

PPRuNe Towers

15th Feb 2004, 05:08

Bargain or not - don't wind yourselves up into an excited little moist puddle.

Review both pages of this thread. Do it now.

Count the number of direct experiences of this school. If you want to be currency speculators go and do it in the City.

If you want a JAA [f]ATPL find a school with a current reputation and pilots moving through its ranks that are willing to speak.

If they won't speak you are foolish not to assume the worst. The importance of this thread lies in the dearth of information and informers not the posturing and semantics.

Rob Lloyd

moggie

15th Feb 2004, 05:25

Scroggs - as for the "airlines prefer integrated" being cobblers, remember that this is actually the publicly stated policy of BA (although as they are not taking many people at the moment it could be argued that this doesn't count!).

Send Clowns

15th Feb 2004, 07:46

More importantly, when they were taking a few inexperienced, non-sponsored pilots they were accepting modular students ...

BillieBob

15th Feb 2004, 08:05

The most dispassionate (and most experienced) contributors to this thread say that it makes no difference whether one follows the modular or integrated route. All opinion to the contrary apparently comes from contributors with a vested interest, either because they are integrated course providers or because they are trying desperately to justify their own (apparently misguided) expenditure on an integrated course.

Guess which point of view commands the most credibility....

machonepointone

15th Feb 2004, 13:57

I have just read the postings about WMU and I would like to point out one or two things that have been overlooked by some of the contributors.

Thundercat, I can readily accept your wanting to know about WMU these days, but your second posting on the subject was not entirely correct. First of all WMU lost many more than just five flying instructors. The original group just did not have their contracts renewed. This was to save the university the embarrassment of having to come clean with the trumped up charges that had been levied against them. Having done that, there were a further two culls during the course of which several more flying instructors were made redundant. To say that WMU will have got over that in the intervening two years is not exactly true. At the moment there are only three JAA licensed instructors there. One of them is the Head of Training whose only reason for still being there is that his wife wants to finish a nursing course/qualification. The second is the former Standards Instructor who has had his legs kicked out from under him by the current American management and is not therefore a very happy bunny.

At the last count there was a grand total of one, yes just one, JAA student. So, if WMU is so wonderful where are all the rest? My understanding is that the only reason WMU tolerates JAA training is because Battle Creek Unlimited, a large business consortium, invested so much money in the early days (we are talking several million dollars here), that it could be expensive for the university in terms of litigation to pull the plug entirely.

I note that there have been no responses from Presbycusis, the former defendant of the indefensible. Is this because he has also been made redundant as a groundschool instructor or has he finally realised the futility of trying to explain the deliberate demolition of what used to be one of the best flying training organisations going?

In case anyone accuses me of bias in the matter, let me just point out that my sources of information are not only some of the current staff members at WMU. Until a couple of years ago I was employed there and was one of the victims of the original inquisition. I don’t want to go into detail here, but if anyone would like to hear what really happened they are welcome to contact me direct. Perhaps one could argue with some justification that I am biased against WMU, but all I am trying to do is point out that the damage has not been repaired, and that no matter how good the exchange rate, WMU is probably not the place to go to at the moment.

Jonny

15th Feb 2004, 15:01

Thanks for the helpful (yet disappointing!) info machonepointone. At last a contributor to the actual topic of the thread.

And billiebob... haven't you got things the wrong way round? Those expressing a personal interest in an integrated course are the ones saying that it really makes no differences to one's employment prospects whether one follows an integrated or modular route. It is those with the vested interest in a modular route that consistantly get evangelical about modular being the right way to do things or even than it improves employment prospects.

And just for the record Send Clowns (as i've seen you make the same point in several places). BA are still taking low hours Self Sponsored pilots straight from schools (15-20 a year) but purely from the 4 integrated courses (though there is one that they haven't recruited from in 10 years or so!).

Dah... can't believe the thread turned out like this again... actually i can!

Anymore with experience of WMU want to share their knowledge?

Thundercat

17th Feb 2004, 06:34

I've spoken with WMU and they're going to send me further details. Currently there are 9 students (from what I recall) on the JAA course, 2 of which are Brits. Unfortunetely they haven't been drawn to this thread, if at all to PPRUNE. Pity, but it would be nice to hear from someone with recent experience.

History doesn't sound favourable for WMU and I can only hope that the future is more stable. The general consensus seems to be that:

a) WMU have poorly managed and badly looked after previous staff crucial to the success of the JAA syllabus.

b) Although the problems were some 2 years back, the shockwaves will take sometime longer to repair.

c) Regardless of exchange rate benefits, WMU needs to be treated with trepidation as it has been suggested they may be just trying to recoup losses made in previous JAA course investments.

This all paints a rather gloomy picture and I can only hope that WMU or someone connected to it recently can cast a better light. Given the direction of this thread, it would take some stealy nerve to gamble your training money on WMU unless any solid experiance or support for it comes forward giving a strong case otherwise.

So given recent comments, I'm prepared to stand corrected - it sounds like WMU has yet to prove that it could again be "one of the best training choices available". Any further views to back or refute this?...

Thundercat

PPRuNe Towers

17th Feb 2004, 19:26

Tcat - good synopsis, good analysis - especially point b.

You also tried to keep the thread on track whilst others were getting over excited during excursions from the point.

There's a long learning curve for any school to get consistent success for its students. Two years ago WMU blew its JAA training cadre out of the water - whether maliciously or wilfully is an entirely moot point - what is important is that it will take many exam sittings for them to get up to speed again. The present 9 are guinea pigs paying a lot for the priveledge.

There are sadly, allegedly sentient beings who will still take the plunge because the exchange rate excites them. Cost of everything and value of nothing types.

Actually - that's given me an idea for a photo comp! We've never had one of those here before. Let's see - I've got an unused copy of Jepp's IFR Pro simulator as a prize - I think its about £90 quid these days. How about pics of the rattiest aircaft for students and hour builders lured by the cost?

If anyone's interested fire up a new thread and I'll pop in with the details. I think we need to look at it worldwide and there has to be a web or magazine photo to contrast marketing fantasy with creaking, flyblown reality. If we got a good library I'd even pay for a regular ad in the GA mags pointing wannabees to what the aircaft really look like - just like the gazzeteers or 'truth books' travel agents keep under the counter for those in the know:} :} :}

Regards
Rob Lloyd

Thundercat

19th Feb 2004, 01:47

Thank you PT - it's a pity that the story so far is so negative. I'm hoping that someone can still provide some positive light on the future of WMU. Personally I still very much want to talk with WMU to get their side of the story and find out how they intend to move forward. Clearly, with comments as poor as we've seen on this thread going around, it's going to take WMU a good time longer to get back on their feet.

However, this thread has certainly alerted me to some problems I wasn't aware of and will allow me to ask the 'right' questions in order to draw my own conclusions. Thanks to all.

sloppywmu

20th Feb 2004, 02:52

Hello All,
I am a current flight instructor at WMU, on the FAA side. I am a little confused by your comments about the "program" being demolished. From what I understood of it all, the JAA side was actually combined with the FAA side. This was for overall simplification along with the loss of the BA and Emirates contracts. Some JAA instructors obviously had to be laid off because of the dramatic loss of European students. Not to mention the exorbitant salary that they were getting paid, at something like 3 or 4 times what the part time U.S. instructors get. From my knowledge this was not done because of any want to get rid of the JAA side of the program. As far as the school goes, it is a thriving aviation university that is well renowned. Obviously I am biased and probably also trying to defend my expenditure of quite a good sum. But I would still think that WMU is a good school to attend. Especially from what you guys are saying the price is of the schools in Europe. Most of the FAA side students are able to go through the program without spending much over $30,000.

If you have any questions please post, I am anxious to answer any concerns. And I just want to reiterate that WMU is still a good flight school, as far as the flight program in general the school has not lost anything, in fact we are growing at a steady pace.

Sloppy

machonepointone

22nd Feb 2004, 13:47

Sloppywmu

While I 100% agree with you that WMU is a thriving concern, I feel that I must point out, if only for the benefit of EUROPEAN customers, that with but one exception all the students are American, or at least university students, undertaking the aviation sciences degree course. Last I heard it was oversubscribed, and rightly so. However, in terms of training for a European licence WMU has all but died the death, as has already been described.

Before anyone leaps on the hint of a frozen ATPL for $30,000, let me just point out that in America the vast majority of Americans already have somewhere to live, unlike European students who will have to pay for food and accommodation for about 13 to 14 months. Also, at the risk of stating the obvious, it is generally cheaper to get from Kalamazoo to Battle Creek than from the UK.

As regards the exorbitant salaries that the expatriate instructors were earning, lets just put them into context here. While I was there, many of the FAA instructors had very few flying hours. I remember several instances whereby a person was a student on Friday and on the following Monday walked in through the doors with four gold bars on their shoulders as an instructor. Many of the junior FAA instructors measured their flying hours in three digits and often their instructional hours in just two (if any at all at the start). The JAA instructors, on the other hand, each had several thousand flying hours both total and instructional. Not only were they vastly more experienced than any FAA instructor, they were also teaching ab initio students to go from zero hours direct to the right hand seat of a commercial airliner, something that not a single FAA instructor was doing the whole time I was there, nor, I suspect, are doing now.

If you are like the majority of young FAA instructors when I was there, you are probably hours building with a view to getting an airline job as soon as possible. I do not blame you for that and I wish you every success. However, ALL the JAA instructors were career instructors and were there on a long term basis (or were until the witch hunt). As an employer, it makes little commercial or financial sense to pay what was frequently a transitory workforce the same kind of salary as a hugely more experienced and permanent group of professional instructors. (By that I am not doubting your professionalism as a pilot or instructor. It is a comparison between those who instruct permanently as a profession as opposed to those who are hours building). That is why there was such a discrepancy in the salaries. Having said that, the expatriate staff members have had their relocation expenses stopped, so they face the cost of moving back to the UK themselves (probably not less than $10000). Also those FAA licensed instructors who worked for the JAA program have had their "exorbitant" salaries cut by around 20%.

Capt. Manuvar

23rd Feb 2004, 17:57

Thundercat,
As a fellow wannabe, this is my advice to you. There is an enormous amount of info and 'propaganda', and its hard to find the best deal. As far as Integrated courses are concerned, i don't think they are as 'hot' as they used to be. The new thing is type ratings, i don't personally believe that we should have to pay for them but a lot of people seem to be folowing this route. People prefer to go modular and spend the savings on a type rating. The airlines that prefer to recruit Integrated graduates are not recruiting and will not be in the near future. Those that are doing the bulk of the recruitment prefer typerated pilots.
It is possible to do a modular atpl with £25K, here's a quick breakdown based on minima:
Medical £500
PPL in US £3000
ATPL Ground £3000
night £500
100Hrs PIC (US) £4000
MEP £1500
MEIR(Spain) £5500
CPL(spain) £2000
TOTAL £20000
You'll save about £20k on WMU. WMU is one of the top FAA training institutions and an all-around reputable school but i won't risk £40k on their JAA side based on recent history.

K2SkyRider

23rd Feb 2004, 21:03

Capt. Manuvar,

I'm a fellow wannabe currently considering many options.

Interesting that you suggest IR courses in Spain - is that for good weather as well as cheaper course fees? Which schools have you investigated out of interest?

Any advice appreciated regarding US schools, FAA-JAA conversions and ATPL groundschools.

K2

Thundercat

24th Feb 2004, 21:49

Interesting post there Capt. Manuvar. I've not really considered Spain for modular - why there as opposed to US? I know you have to do the IR in Europe but why the CPL?

And does anyone have any idea how much a type rating costs (rough estimate will do!)? I notice there's a thread going right now on Astreus and Stratford for a combined course including 737 rating and line training for 50k. What is the general thought on that? Would it be cheaper to do modular training yourself then buy the rating with the saved capital? It seems the Stratford way, you may get a chance at a job with Astreus?

Thundercat

Capt. Manuvar

25th Feb 2004, 01:59

I initially hadn't considered spain until quite recently. I wrongly assumed that all training in Europe was ridiculously expensive. But looking through a few of the spanish websites i realised that the costs of modular training in Spain in comparable (if not cheaper) to that of JAA schools in the US (most of whom charge exorbitant rates compared with FAA schools). A 25hr CPL in spain can go for about £2000 with a 180 euro test fee while in the US its about $4500 (£2500). Also there is no visa and antiterror BS.
Typeratings cost about £15-25k for B737/A32X (someone correct me if I'm wrong). I'm personally not a fan of buying typeratings. You need to be careful with type ratings as certain airlines(e.g. Ryanair) only accept TRs from certain organisations.
Capt. M

tarbaby

25th Feb 2004, 02:18

I would wait until after 1st July before considering WMU for a JAA course. Reason being the JAA instructor contracts are up for renewal then. However with State grants being cut and the university doing its own form of pruning (no pun intended) the outlook is not bright.

gamekeeper

10th Mar 2004, 18:16

Did my fATPL at WMU. Frank assessment:

Facilities - second to none.
Instruction - excellent, though the best JAA instructors are long gone.
Battle Creek - unexciting, but an experience!
Cost of living - probably higher than you’d imagine (car essential).
Organisation - a shambles.
Management - incompetent, arrogant, mostly ex-RAF...
Customer service - none.
Broken promises - lots.
Course cost - 20% more than I budgeted for.

If I was starting again I’d still go Integrated, but not at WMU. Don’t like being taken for a ride.

skysoarer

17th Mar 2004, 01:20

I've just posted this on the other Wannabe's forum... but then found this and decided to post here also... see below: PM me if you like...

-----------------------

Well... been out there to visit now... and really rather impressed...!

Ok... it was Very cold and can get alot colder... it was around 34'F at night and about 40'F during the day... increasing towards my return date to around 59'F. I was very lucky with the weather apparently. It was sunny, clear, and cool for the most part... and then went overcast and damp for the last couple of days.

As for the airfield, absolutely huge, the white-elephant 747 is still there and is largely unused by the college as it just doesn't assist the sylabus at all. Within 10 minutes of arrival saw a bunch of A10's take-off, that was a sight having never seen one before except on Vietnam films...

Sure yes, there have been problems with instructors. But at least the numbers there at the moment are appropriate to the number of students. The college's main selling point to me is, like Oxford, that the college is owned by Western Michigan University itself - a college with 35000 students. When you start a course there, they are bound by contract to provide the course to you and provided you put the work in and don't fail it like any other Degree course ... you will get that license and probably a job at the end of it. There was a visit by BA staff while I was there and they are still interested in taking students from there in the future (presumably when the airline sorts itself out).

They are getting rid of their full-motion simulator, and selling it to oxford I think... but they are replacing it with two Embraer simulators (excuse spelling...) as this is more in line with first aircraft types in the US when you get a job - arguably even in the UK... I know at least one Cabair student who went straight onto CRJ's. The course still has the same tried-and-successfully-tested formula that was in use with the sponsored students. There is a bit of a crisis in the US generally with people not wanting to learn to fly... this is old news. So it shouldn't come as a surprise that not many FAA students are on courses there, but there are enough for the courses to run. There is very little interest in JAA courses for May, but a good level of interest for the September course as this is after people graduate.

Martyn was very honest and answered all my worrying questions honestly and openly. I am satisfied that if I were to choose a school, I'd go here no contest. If only for the security offered in writing by WMU, who own the College of Aviation. Even if they pulled the plug, your course would run to completion.

The aircraft are in good condition, well kitted out, the airspace offers a challenge but isn't so manic that you can't learn. The weather is also a challenge as it's not always cavok! In fact, when I was there they had not had a decent series of flyable days for ages and the 3 ft of snow was evident in places! As such the flying list was absolutely chockablok...!

The area is a little flat, but I suppose that makes emergency landing practice easier! But it is pretty and Lake Michigan is huge... there is quite a bit to see and do and the area has everything you at least have around where you probably live now... i.e. cinema, loads of shops (IT, housewear, 24 hour cafe's, shops, etc)... Denny's (great breakfasts, cheap too), Bob Evans (similar to Denny's, but different menu), and some really good ale bars I was introduced to by Martyn.

It comes down to this... if you are even 10% interested in this school, give Martin Grant or Martyn Dickinson a call. In fact all the staff there were fantastic. What really surprised me was how caring they were towards past/present students! They could recall previous courses and details about what the students were doing now... and a few called to say Hi while I was meeting with Martyn. A couple of people flying for BA came over on a standby ticket for a holiday and to pop by to give an update... one was flying Airbus (presumably A319/A320's) and the other 737's... For every student who knocked on the door, they knew what they were up to and seemed to know them all as well as good friends.

To be frank, don't dwell in the past and put yourself off with past comments about WMU... many don't really apply now. Look at the school Now and make a judgement on that, and use your foresight to see where it's heading. I think the school will do very well and exceed itself.

My ticket over there with AA was £315 with the TATC, but Airline network had one for £345 I think... both including the connecting flight to Kalamazoo. Talk to them, go visit, see for yourself!

Feel free to drop me a line if anything still nags at you, but I've tried to be thorough...

soarer

20th Mar 2004, 19:48

Gamekeeper

Just how frank is frank? - I couldn’t help noticing that in your considered opinion you assessed the facilities at WMU as ‘second to none’ The instruction ‘excellent’
However you finished up 20% over budget !!!! Hmmmm ?
I couldn’t help also noticing that you never assessed ‘student aptitude’.
I wonder how you would assess, slight whiff of “sour grapes”?

In my humble opinion Skysoarer (no relation) did the right thing - got on his bike - went and had a look - seems as though he was well cared for.

Chutney

21st Mar 2004, 08:51

..... being well cared for might worry some. Elsewhere in the forums our chum was also congratulated on his get up and go but advised to ask some searching questions on the groundschool. You know, those 14 little exams.

I'm hoping it was just the excitement of it all that prevented not a single word regarding ground school, exam teaching, current feedback and exam sittings and how long since the ground school instructors had sent candidates into 3 or more consecutive exam sittings. Look forward to part two skysoarer:ok: :ok:

Master Yoda

29th Mar 2004, 14:18

Posted again, but why were they not at the flight training show on saturday 27th march at heathrow?

i wanna visit them, anyone wanna come? (call it a ppruner visit!).

Time to Fly

29th Mar 2004, 23:01

Master Yoda

You better go visit them soon.

I heard a rumour the program at WMU has already closed down and they are just finishing up the 2 students they currently have on the course.

TTF

gamekeeper

30th Mar 2004, 07:59

Hi Skysoarer - sounds like you had a great visit. Just like the one I had before I signed up. And your gut feel about the place is pretty accurate - the guys you would have met are fantastic and will look after you like royalty if you do choose WMU.

A few “frank” words of caution though:

Groundschool - high success rate when they were putting BA/EPST cadets through almost every month. The CGI was very well connected with his opposite numbers at other schools and the CAA, and knew exactly what was required. Whether they still have the expertise, or the same personnel, is worth checking out.

Cash & contracts - I bet they didn’t introduce you to the accountant! That’s where the fun starts, and the reason I wouldn’t recommend the place.

Course cancellation - you’re right - they never pulled the plug on a course once it had started, even ones that became unviable (e.g. when BA pulled out on Sept 12th), but they do have a track record of cancelling courses at short notice if the take-up isn’t sufficient. We had a guy out on a visit, just like you, and no-one had the heart to break it to him that his course had already been abandoned before he’d even got on the plane. If the latest rumours have any substance.....

And Soarer - thanks for your dig about “student aptitude” - mine is fine, thank you. Completed in minimum hours and now fly jets for a Big Airline. Serious point though - if any Wannabe is contemplating an ATPL without some aptitude testing first, they’re either very brave or very rich! WMU used to insist on it. GAPAN will oblige for a modest fee. It’s worth every penny.

Master Yoda

1st Apr 2004, 10:38

TTF, where did u hear that? are they really closing up shop?Anyone else considering going there in the near future? or am I the only Brit?:confused: :confused:

Fanois

1st Apr 2004, 11:47

Is my first post, so please be gentle as I digress briefly into the modular/integrated argument.

I'm a wannabe with a few hrs under my belt, mostly UAS. I attended the recent Flyer show at Heathrow, mainly to ‘break the ice’ and start to submerge myself into the financially unforgiving world of commercial aviation. A chap from BA gave the first seminar, and I seem to remember a guy putting a question to him about whether BA would consider applicants from modular courses. Whereas many on this thread and others have said it does not matter from the employer’s point of view, he replied that BA only considered those with integrated backgrounds. Only one employer, i know, but a lot of people i've met seem to think that BA is where the sun shines from... If anyone there heard differently, and bearing in mind that at the time I was slightly less au fait with the choices and their significance and hence paid less attention to this than I would if I went tomorrow, please let me know.

Is there another s#dding industry in existence that insists on such up front financial commitment/risk while offering no guarantees – even once you’ve got a job!

Everyone seems very helpful though, i'm learning a lot from PPRuNe! :ok:

Send Clowns

1st Apr 2004, 12:08

Welcome Fanois. Did I talk to you at all at the show (I'm with BCFT) ?

The straight answer is that the sun doesn't shine from BA, especially not for a low-hour pilot!

Since BA are not recruiting self-sponsored low-hour pilots, and only ever recruit a tiny number in the best of times, then if you are only aiming for a BA job then you'd be misguided to pay for your own course. Bear in mind that when they did last recruit a few straight out of the schools they were willing to accept graduates of modular schools!

Otherwise only Emirates insist on integrated for first-job pilots (FlyBE said they did, but a friend of mine was on a course with 2 modular graduates) and I have never heard of them actually employing recent graduates. Many other, more likely, employers look for hours - the 60 or so extra hours you achieve with a modular course plus anything you can pay for with the saving are, in my opinion, more likely to get you work with them than the label "integrated".

Note that although I work for a modular FTO, this is not an inter-school complaint. My first encounter with integrated/modular confusion was my annoyance that one school's marketing bunch tried to sell me a completely inappropriate integrated course in 1999 (I had 180 hours fixed-wing, including UAS time, but had no idea of the then new JAA system, so needed decent advice) instead of their own modular course. I still feel that people are being bounced into inappropriate courses by schools that could offer an option that is better for that student.