Emerald latest??

[in-2-wind]

Just looking for an update on the job situation at Emerald if anyone can help?? Whats the outlook for the 748?

cheers

windy!

[Andrew Eales]

On the same topic - would anyone have any information as to where the ATPs are going to be based ?

[redsnail]

It looks like the ATP's are going to be based in LPL initially. After that, who knows?
Job wise? Not sure what's happening on the 748 fleet but I know they have had 6 resignations from the Shed fleet since late Nov/early Dec. I guess the employment situation will be clearer once the redundancy issue has been resolved. (With the resignation rate on the Shed I doubt it'll be a problem)

[Sir Stanley Bigh]

There may be a vacancy for a cleaner at head office soon

[Engineer]

SSB

The cleaner's job has that been created to clean out the lockers of those made redundant

[cruiseczechs]

2 748 FO's have recently left Emerald for pastures new, along with 2 more and 4 Capt's have just left the fleet to go to the ATP. The 748 fleet remains at 14 aircraft and is desperately undercrewed, the situation made worse with the migration to the ATP. Crews have so many roster changes, they don't know whether they are coming or going and are constantly being requested to work days off.

Despite all this there seems to be a reluctance to take on more crew, when the programme completely falls down then something may get done about recruitment.

regards cz

[smellster]

I seriously doubt there will be any redundancies on either of the fleets. It was more than likely scare tactics all along to get the crews to keep quiet and do what they're told to.

What with more or less everyone desperate to leave I'm sure they'll be taking people onto both fleets in the near future.

[03 headset man]

does anyone no when emerald are planning to start there passenger flights again and were are they flying from and to

[Civil Servant]

CZ,

No change there then, in either crew shortage or folks leaving.

They always were reluctant to hire sufficient crew and relied on ops/crewing being able to persuade people to work days off or to be able to trade days off and move the problem "to the right" for another shift to sort out.

Pilots seemed to use Emerald to buils hours before going to fly something shiney with a glass cockpit etc. Mind you, who can blame them?

[Sir Stanley Bigh]

It's a good place to build duty hours but there aren't so many going in the logbook

[Giz A Job]

Emerald airways has never been more to most than a stepping stone for Pilots wishing to get a start on the ladder, however there is a hardcore of Pilots who have been happy to work their days out for this airline.
Times are a changing at Emerald, even the hardcore are now fed up with the constant roster changes, badgering on days off and threats if they don't do what is asked of them.
Recently two First officers have left for pastures new (lucky them)
and four Captains and two First officers have been through the ground exam's on the ATP (and are now on office duties as they cannot return to the 748 fleet), this leaves Emerald 8 down on the 748 with no apparent planning having gone into place as to how they are to be replaced, this is leading to extra pressure on the rest of the 748 Pilots who where undercrewed even prior to losing these 8 people.
There was a threat of redundancy after losing the Royal mail contracts however Emerald appear to be doing the same if not more than prior to losing the contracts, emerald has in fact picked up another contract out of Aberdeen.
Currently Emerald is running significantly less than two crews an Aircraft on the 748 fleet.
My question is-- When is this going to end so we can get back to some sort of normality in our personal lives.
A warning to all who desire a job at Emerald, you might want your first airline job more than anything else in the world, having got a start you will very quickly become disillusioned
The FTL scheme is a legal maximum and not a target for the company to achieve.
I welcome any replies from Pilots in Emerald, I think this has gone on long enough.
I know all Pilots feel the same way about this and any replies of a critical nature will be dismissed as from the non Pilot community.

Happy days are here again!!!!!!

[dada]

I've warned you twice about this

[READY MESSAGE]

Another worthwhile post by dada I see......

However, before others slate him for this most recent contribution to an Emerald related discussion, it has to be noted that his opinions are at least consistent.......

[ghost-rider]

Hmm ... a consistant to$$er ! :mad:

[Civil Servant]

Maybe Dada is all that is espoused here, however, you have to admit that what he writes here is what most people who work/have worked there think about the way it is run. It's just a shame he can't put into real words his feelings and reasons. Mind you, years of juggling crews/broken aircraft and commercial stabbing the program in the back every 5 mins has probably melted his language chip beyond recognition.

Nothing seems to have changed. I haven't been there for many years now and count myself extremely lucky to have escaped. If dada has indeed warned people of this situation then management, especially very senior management, are unlikely to have listened as they just don't want to know. Never did and never will. Unlike big D, I will give a f'rinstance. Take the day the commercial manager came up to ops one afternoon and asked if there was any chance we could do a trip. Can't remember exactly where but somewhere in Norway rings a bell. After crewing and ops and everyone had a good look at the rosta it was decided we just had no way we could do it and still protect the flypro for the next couple of days. This was duly reported to him along with the reasons. Five mins later up he pops and tells us thet the trip is on and he knows we will somehow get a crew together and make the flypro work as well. We did the usual and begged, borrowed, offered extra days off etc and smartly moved the problem a couple of days to the right as usual, lest ops be in the dwang again with "he who must be obeyed" and be called the shower of stuff that dada keeps saying the place is.

It's not going to change until something drastic happens and that will be a crying shame as there are/were good people working there who are/were totally unappreciated and frequently abused both literally and verbally.

I know it's unpopular to agree with dada, but they really are the shower he suggests.

I'll take my pill now and I'm sure I'll feel better soon!

[ghost-rider]

Civil Servant,

An interesting post.

So who exactly there is doing the verbal and "literal"(?) abuse ? And in what way ? ( "literal" suggests "physical" !)

In the instance you quoted, was pressure put on ops/crewing from the commercial manager who in turn was having his collar felt from above ? Surely if a trip is not viable because of the detriment to crews in the immediate period then someone should stand up and say no ?

Did the trip go-ahead ? What was the knock-on affect ?

When you say things won't change until something drastic happens ... in what way ?

Where is the underlying problem here ? There has to be a simple root cause that needs addressing ?

[one dot right]

Where is the underlying problem here?

The M.D. What a Pr1*k!!

[Civil Servant]

ghost rider,

No, no physical beatings as I perhaps may have unintentionally intimated, just a general bullying on the emotional level. Being made to feel worthless, being sworn at regularly and having ones working life being made a misery. I once saw a lady crying at her desk after having an early morning "morale booster" on the phone from a senior manager.

If you want to send me a private message I'm willing to discuss it more, but otherwise it would be a pointless exercise and perhaps being seen as trying to do mischief which I do not wish to do.

[ghost-rider]

Civil,

Please check PMs

[Civil Servant]

g-r,

Check your PMs

[CV Donator]

I'm trying to get a job there in ops to hopefully eventually get work on the 748. I actually got past the secretary the other day on the phone and spoke to somebody influential. Who do i send a cv to. Yes, I should have asked on hte blower but excitement got the better of me. Thanks, well you've got to start somewhere!

[Sir Stanley Bigh]

Those who do the hiring of pilots at EA take a very dim view of being bothered on the phone. It is not a good way to get a position!

[Giz A Job]

In reply to Ghost-rider, I thought the root cause of all the problems at Emerald was obvious.

Because one man on his own controls the whole shooting match it must be down to him (don't you think ?).

Happy days are here again (Not)

[G-MANN]

seems there are more who agree with dada than you might suspect. doesn't seem right he's been banned, it looks like he's being victimeyesd. can i say just a right shower or is that wrong too?

[one dot right]

Free the Dada 1. His only crime was to tell the truth!!

[Giz A Job]

G-MANN, As a company and the way it operates-- the quote you gave is I feel not far from the truth, however the many people that work for this company are the nicest group of people collectively you could wish to meet and I'm not just talking about Pilots. Engineers, Ops staff, Admin staff etc all do a hard job (under the circumstances) and give 100%, but I feel this isn't good enough for higher management.

Happy days may be here again soon I just want to know when please ?????????


PS--- Please free the DADA 1

[Civil Servant]

Agree with Giz A Job on veverything said in last post.


FREE DADA. He speaks the truth, if somewhat ineloquently.

[ghost-rider]

So let me get this right ... do all those agreeing with Lala actually work for Emerald??

[jafo33]

No idea if any of these guys work for Emerald. But Giz A job makes a fair comment.

All staff at Emerald work hard, but can be unappreciated. As a pilot, its a good place to build hours, experience and get a command, faster than most places.

Take your pick. There are very few airlines that actually have aircraft you still hand fly for the entire flight on raw data. We do. That takes skill. Starting a career here is a great way to build experience and a solid base for a career.

Unfortunately the constant roster changes, due to low crew, mean a very disrupted life. The low pay doesn't help either.

And as for Lala, Dada or Dopey, aren't we better off without him? Can't be bothered to say who he is or why he has such an axe to grind.

[READY MESSAGE]

I don't recall dada (for that is his name - not Lala, he will be upset!) suggesting he has an axe to grind. Maybe he could see what was happening there and got out. He is, as we all are, entitled to an opinion. His views appear consistent with those of others on this thread and various Emerald threads from the past. He just has a slightly less subtle way of expressing them!

To be quite honest, the more I read about Emerald the more I tend to agree with dada. And I thought I had it bad!

[dada]

I'M FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE.
no further comments from me, i hush my mouth.

[SM82]

Nice to see again you dada welcome back and im sure that comes from all of us. Well maybe not MOB anyway.

[Night Freight 1]

New colours for Emerald
Click here (http://www.btinternet.com/~poolfc/G-JEMC5.jpg)

and here (http://www.btinternet.com/~poolfc/G-JEMC3.jpg)

last one (http://www.btinternet.com/~poolfc/G-JEMC4.jpg)

[Sir Stanley Bigh]

Shed pic available on airliners.net,

http://www.airliners.net/photos/small/6/2/4/534426.jpg

[Captain I. Jones]

What's that then, a quick cote of white paint and twenty quids worth of green squares, how tipically Emerald, sorry "emerald", cheap. I guess the capital letters must have been a bit steep. Still haven't got my expenses either!

[Ghostrider749]

Capt Jones - shame you feel the need to ridicule the new scheme - especially considering the amount of work put in by the FO who designed it - suppose that's the difference between those who try to make a difference and those who never will !!

[Air Mail]

I thought they were carpet tiles glued onto the fin and fuselage!!

[jafo33]

So where's the logo gone?

Nice to see a fresh scheme, shame it couldn't be a little bolder! Now are they going to paint all the aircraft, or just one from each fleet?

[Giz A Job]

At long last BALPA is starting to make its presence felt at Emerald, for too long the Pilots have been left without any formal representation, had the Company treated their Pilots fairly then there would never have been any need to go down this road.

Relationship between Pilots and Management have never been this low and its a sad day that BALPA have to come and mediate.

Effective Management could have sorted this out years ago but man management is sadly lacking in this company.

Emerald could be a great company to work for if it respected its staff and the continued effort people put in just to make it work.

The daily moral boosters Management dish out don't appear to be having the desired effect.

A happy workforce is a productive workforce.


Happy days are here again (soon)

[Captain I. Jones]

If the F/O in question was paid properly in the first place he probably wouldn't have bothered, but then on that kind of money a grand makes a big difference.

[74Freight]

I think, of the four shed pilots to go "orange" in the last few months, two were required to do the jet handling course at CTC and were chopped, the other two are going straight on to the 737 rating, and are doing OK as far as I know. One of those chopped is now at excel, not sure about the other

[one dot right]

I am not a big fan of the management but with the recent appointments of Flt Ops Dir,Ops Mngr,and ATP Fleet Manager,I am hopeful that emerald is about to be run properly
Don't hold your breath.

The last flight ops director,a good man,wasn't allowed to direct flight ops due to continuous"management".:{

[dada]

irrespective of the quality of the new appoinments, they're all puppets for the mob. it'll never be run properly (whatever that means) with mick the in charge.

[FougaMagister]

Capt. Mainwaring - check PM.

[Inspecthergadget]

Hey Dada
I agree with much of what you say about this bunch of so called P:mad:

[dada]

many do, but are too scared (of the mob?) to say so.

[BRISTOLRE]

Aviation Job Search shows a new entry for EMERALD AIRWAYS "Director of Business Development" required...
Extensive European Travel required & fluent languages required...
APPLY WITHIN

[dada]

no thank you very much

[Doctor Cruces]

Last post 14 May? MOB not upset Dada for over a week?

Doc C

[dada]

i'm always upset about this lot and the way you get treated

[Doctor Cruces]

I used to be, but after being away from the [place for several years, I feel much better!!

[dada]

abandon ship, abandon ship. you're better off in a circus!

[Doctor Cruces]

Hey dada,

I thought you ARE in a circus!!

Doc C

[dada]

indeed i am, i'm the clown.

[smartman]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
emerald
Now that Emerald has a new Head of Flight Operations, is there a change of wind? Or has the shift to QNH from QFE caused a rift twixt the aircrew? And do ' Won't fly ' or ' Can't fly ' give a txxs?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[dada]

it's run by the mob and always has been

[straightnotlevel]

do i take it people arent happy then? i always enjoyed the circus

[flykiller]

I agree with dada >>>> lifes poo
staff & engineers all underpaid
promised pay review 18 months ago

nothings happened:{

[jafo33]

Flykiller,

Interested to see you searched out every recent thread on Emerald to post on them. Sadly nothing really useful eh?

[Say again s l o w l y]

He's right though.........

[Goldfinger]

Have any 748 or ATP guys/gals been taken on over the last month or so ?

[Germstone]

emerald are undermanned across the board and always have been !!!

profits come first before anything else and no one in the company is considered an asset

bullyboy tactics is what keep emerald afloat.

making people work overtime and silly numbers of hours is a byword for emerald management.......obviously using "management" in the loosest sense of the word...:-)

[Phileas Fogg]

Not strictly accurate Germstone, how far are you going back?

Emerald are not in the premier league but more like the 3rd division, anyone who wants to play in the premier league shouldn't consider a career with Emerald.

That said, Emerald have survived, and survived well since the days of Janes Aviation and Janes Aviation (748). They have done this by putting profits first, this is common business practice and common sense, it's not rocket science and by staying in the black for a decade or more they remain there today to pay one's mortgage etc.

I never experienced, as you say, bully boy tactics. Yes, perhaps Emerald senior management might improve upon their man management skills but there has not been a recent change in the said management, it was there when one went in and it remains there today.

Of course, if one doesn't like it, one can always apply to 'The World's Favourite Airline', they're really flavour of the month with a lot of their staff at the moment or even apply to the Irish low-cost carrier, that's another really happy ship! or even the EMA based 'Star Alliance'.

Eventually, some will learn, that wherever they go, not everybody will be happy all of the time and some, through naivity, will always find something to complain about believing they are the only person or people in this world feeling hard done by.

This is not a defence of Emerald nor it's management, it's plain common sense and a voice of experience!

[Say again s l o w l y]

There's a big difference between being annoyed about losing tea and bun priviledges compared to getting called at 3 in the morning (waking up wife and kids) because they haven't got enough crew to cover the routes they have now. (On a regular basis.)

Emerald management need to sharpen up quickly or the 20 year run of being in the black may come to a crashing end and that won't be good for anybody. Management, crews or customers.

[Phileas Fogg]

Management, crews or customers

Slowly,
I'm not going to get in to tittle-tattle but your most recent post, I believe, says it all.
An airline, well it's all about pilots, and pilots, and pilots and hey, let's have a snipe at management.
What about the engineers, the operations & crewing people, the accountants, the lady that sits on reception, the post holders that keep the AOC going? Hey, let's not worry about them, it's us pilots that matter!
Yes, accepted Emerald don't have enough crews to cover all eventualities but please name one independent carrier that does?
And just ask any RYR pilot if his/her sole disgruntlement is 'tea & buns'?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Bit of an unfair post there, at no time would I ever suggest that pilots are the be all and end all for an airline, but to be totally blunt they are the single most important group of employees in any airline, a/c can't fly without crews but they can without accountants.

Emerald's problems are far deeper than a Pilots Vs Management debate. Have you asked our engineers how happy they are the moment?? Ops and crewing?? They love working there...........

If we had enough crews to cover the amount of work we have at the moment it would be great. I've seen the stress that the guy's and gal's in ops have to go through just to crew an 'normal' day. How many roster changes have you had recently??
The current situation is unsustainable and for the sake of employing a few more people we are at risk of losing contracts. I seem to remember that a 748 had to do one of the Shed runs a couple of weeks ago, since there were no crews available for a scheduled run! How daft is that? Last minute charters are one thing, but not being able to crew a flight that goes everyday is unforgiveable in my eyes. In the long term having a bit of slack available pays off, but that concept doesn't seem to be understood by 'management.' (A catch-all phrase that really applies to one person.)

[ghost-rider]

Say Again ...

Getting woken at 0300 if you're on s/by happens at any airline ! I've never worked anywhere in the last 21 years where this isn't a factor ! If you weren't on s/by though then you certainly have a valid point.

I can't comment on previous practices at Emerald for crew callouts or lack of crew in general, but I do know Ops & Crewing are (or about to) go through a radical shake-up and bring them into the 21st century giving them the tools and people to do the job more efficiently.

The ops/crewing dept has been 'neglected' for want of a better word for years, not intentionally, but for a myriad of reasons. This has now been recognised by senior mngt, and is being addressed.

This will hopefully make their lives easier, and the net result make the FD crews lives easier as well.

[Germstone]

emerald have no option but to modernise...they were taken to task over the "FW" over (almost into) the alps incident !!



I heard crews were having to beg borrow and steal flightplans from other operators just to get by on the continent as they were receiving little to no support from base no doubt due to manpower shortages and were ill prepared to operate on the continent.

unsurprisingly things almost went disasterously wrong.

but that wont matter to MOB im sure he is tucked up safely in bed at night dreaming of all the profit related bonuses he can make of the backs of the hardworking emerald staff!!!!



slight change of subject but im led to beleive there new CEO of the engineering side Andy Marshall of klm norwich fame is a really big hit with the engineering types...lol

he has a really unique perception of man management skills i.e non existant.


BTW no axe to grind at all but just realistic observations

im sat fat dumb and happy in my present role

[Phileas Fogg]

Slowly,
As a pilot in an airline such as Emerald you should be a team player, even if you feel the management aren't wearing the same colour shirts as you are.
Your previous post mentioned crews & management but neglected to mention any other of the players of your team. Yes, Engineering and Operations are important team players also and probably more stessed and fed-up than you are but please don't live under the false impression that, as a pilot, you are more important than others in the team. That's a little bit like saying the centre forward is the most important but he'd be focked without a midfield, a defence and a goalkeeper!
Would you care to explain how an airline, the size of Emerald, is going to operate without accountants? Without accountants, invoices don't go out, money doesn't come in, bills don't get paid resulting in no handling, no fuel, no crew transport or accommodation and aircraft impounded by airport authorities for non-payment of navigation and landing fees.
How far do you think you're going to get without accountants and where's the money going to come from to pay your salary at the end of the month?
Your reference to a Budgie substituting for a Shed, I can only guess Emerald is your only airline to date. Just ask any major charter or schedule operator if they've ever had to utilise an aircraft larger than was necessary to cover a smaller aircraft, the answer(s) will be yes, yes, yes.
Accepted, you shouldn't be phoned, if off duty, at 0300 in the morning but as I mentioned earlier, you're playing in the third division where '**** happens'. If you want a different, not necessarily better, life then move up a division or two but life ain't that rosy there either, just ask the guys and gals at RYR, BMI or EZY and it ain't all to do with 'tea & buns'.

[ghost-rider]

I heard crews were having to beg borrow and steal flightplans from other operators just to get by on the continent as they were receiving little to no support from base no doubt due to manpower shortages and were ill prepared to operate on the continent.

Germstone, may I ask why crews have to beg and borrow ?? Surely ops provide these as a legal requiement for each flight ?!?!

Pse PM me if you don't wish to make public.

[Germstone]

i am unsure as to why this occured as i was not privvy to the reasons but i beleive the crews were having to be very resourcefull

Emerald\'s problems are far deeper than a Pilots Vs Management debate. Have you asked our engineers how happy they are the moment?? Ops and crewing?? They love working there...........



AMEN to that slowly.........i beleive a lot of the groundstaff are now activly looking to join unions and start to seek union recognition.

as numerous requests for pay and working condition reviews over the past few years have fallen on deaf ears

[Phileas Fogg]

the single most important group of employees in any airline, a/c can't fly without crews but they can without accountants.

Slowly,
That's what the 'Australian Airline Pilots Federation' thought in 1989, they've never had the same 'clout' since!
They tended the resignations of practically every Australian (Domestic) flight crew member overnight. Australian Airlines & Ansett Australia subsequently operated an entire summer season without any of these pilots or flight engineers on the payroll and they managed to make profits during the same period!
Nobody is indispensible!

[dada]

i could say something about this lot but i don't need to because people know what i think. it could be a great company to work for if people were treated (managed) effectively. i know tin pot outfits
don't pay big bucks, are often stepping stones for lots of folk and require a lot of goodwill form employees, but most will accept these terms if they are made to feel valued which in turn improves productivity, loyalty etc etc. being valued doesn't mean
more dosh, more leave etc, it can be little touches (appreciation and recognition go a a long way for example). not so though with the mob - he's the know all of the airline industry - can do it all better than anyone else (who are stupid) , and if it were physically possile would do it all himself. i'm sure he's raking it in and that's fine with andy janes because he will be raking it in as well. nothing wrong with that as such, but you can still rake it in
and make people feel valued. why not rake in a little less and give some back as profit share for example - in the long term the amount you rake in will increase if you have a happy loyal workforce. don't think that's what they have at emerald.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Airlines can operate without accountants, not for long and not very successfully but it theory it can be done, like in theory we could fly without ATC, but I just don't want to try that for real!

As for being a "team player" I think you'll find most of us certainly are. The non team stuff comes from HQ. There is a terrible "them and us" attitude that pervades everything in Emerald, the mistrust and bad feeling has to seen to be believed. The "workers" do get on well generally, most pilots and engineers have a decent relationship but since we very rarely come into everyday contact with the accounts dept. etc then it is difficult to get to know these people individually, only their actions are known. This is one of the reasons that mis-trust gets built up since thy are faceless to us and vice-versa. Having team building exercises would be a good idea, but are about as likely to happen as me landing on the moon next week!

I would like to think that we all want the same things in the company, i.e for it to be successful and for it's staff to be treated with respect, since only the first thing is happening currently, I don't see any long-term future for myself at Emerald, sad but true. Does that make me mercenary? To be honest I couldn't care less. I do my job to the best of my abilities, but when I'm not there the place couldn't be further from my mind.

Being woken at 3am when on SBY is fine, that's what being on call is all about, but when it's on a day off or you only got in an hr before it does get a little grating. One of the reasons I have such sympathy for the ops bod's, being forced to do that every day is bound to end up in a torrent of abuse from somebody or their partner.

Having to take a 'budgie' to cover a shed, may be common place, but why on earth should it be acceptable? We're talking about a route that been done everyday for 6 months, we have the a/c to cover nearly anything, but we don't have the crews to man them, so you've got a perfectly good machine sitting on its backside whilst a more expensive machine has to take its place. Not sensible.

Dada, hit the nail squarely on the head.

[Phileas Fogg]

Hi,
Right, I'm going to 'butt out' after this post, yes, I've worked for Emerald in my time but nowadays this subject really has nothing to do with me. I have some fond memories and would like to see Emerald survive and prosper, I'm just trying to be constructive.

Dada, you say MOB is the know of the airline industry but not so. Emerald are a third division team, as you say, a tin pot stepping stone, but third division they are. Do you really think the big boys in the airline industry care or even know about Emerald or MOB? Many will have never heard of him, it's a totally different league out there!

Say again, I did refer to an airline the size of Emerald operating without accountants, it cannot realistically be done! Accepted, it doesn't make economic sense for a Budgie to cover a Shed but at least they managed to cover it in-house rather than sub-chartering out. Please take the time to calculate the cost of employing a Shed crew per annum to include salary, training, employers NI etc. etc. etc. They can afford to have a Budgie cover a Shed for numerous times each year before this would equate in a loss. Unfortunately, it will probably be only after it equates in a loss that something will be done about it!

I recall one night in the 'old days' when AJ came and spoke with me, he had previously looked at my CV and wanted some feedback from me. Well come on in AJ, have a cup of tea, pull up a chair! We chatted for what seemed like hours, it was constructive criticism time and he listened. Whilst such 'listening' opportunities might not exist in Emerald these days you can be sure that MOB and others are reading this, there is too much of people hiding behind handles, mouthing off 'this is ****e, that is bolloxs', this is your opportunity to post constructive critism and it being read by management. Don't talk about problems, talk about rectifications!

Whilst salaries might still be below the industry standard at Emerald they have improved somewhat significantly since the old days. OK, in LPL they don't need to pay the industry standard because the cost of living is so much cheaper there than perhaps down south, just compare the difference in the cost of a pint, unbelievable! But, by not paying the industry standard they're not going to attract all the right staff to make Emerald truly professional, they know that and seem quite content to remain in the third division rather than go for promotion and risk falling from grace (solvency) just as quickly.

Sure, they could go for salary increases, profit shares or even a better working environment but that ain't likely to happen whilst all the bad-mouthing continues on a site such as this. Try being constructive, grovel if need be, who cares if the end result is to be an improved working environment or an increase in your pay packet at the end of the month!

[dada]

Fogg
MOB the know all - i was joking.

All others - complete this phrase - a right shower of ?
bet you guessed it, best of all, bet you know it!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Many people have come up with suggestions, ideas and plans that could turn the company into something fantastic, but none have ever been actioned. It comes down to "I'm in charge so this is what you'll do."

There is a potentially nasty fight brewing which I don't want to be part of. Crews and other staff are fed up, management won't back down and all that will happen is people will just leave.

Why should we kiss a*se to try and get the basics right? Pay expenses claims on time, don't stuff around with duty pay, don't roster people into discretion regularily, stop calling on days off for 'favours' that never get paid back, allow the engineers to buy some spares before they are needed, pay the company's bills on time. (nothing to do with not having the money). etc.etc.etc.etc.etc......(ad infinitum)

Are these constructive enough? Please note I've not mentioned anything about less hours or getting paid more.

MO'B are you listening??

[dada]

MOB may be listening but don't count on any action.

[Germstone]

the real big issue at emerald is management empire builders all trying to shine and not bothered about who they drop in it on the way up!

emerald at the moment is sailing very close to the wind on a lot of issues.

even the CAA are now taking a closer look at the way emerald is operated and becoming a lot more involved.....all the management bs about things improving is now not washing with the authority and they can see the cracks forming


there is a real big fight brewing and the emerald pressure cooker is reaching explosion point.

i personally am going to bail asap as i dont want to be a part of this organisation anymore (or shower of s**t as dada would say)

MOB is a know it all and ignorant with it too he wouldnt listen to grass roots staff he doesnt want to hear the problems and even if he did listen management inaction is legendary at emerald so there would be no changes!!!!!


as long as MOB and AJ are feathering there resprective nests..the rest of emerald can be run as badly as it can be.......aslong as it stays in the black

[Ghostrider749]

Quote:

"emerald have no option but to modernise...they were taken to task over the "FW" over (almost into) the alps incident !!



I heard crews were having to beg borrow and steal flightplans from other operators just to get by on the continent as they were receiving little to no support from base no doubt due to manpower shortages and were ill prepared to operate on the continent.

unsurprisingly things almost went disasterously wrong".

Just a thought - is it not strange how crews were able to fly this route safely, before and numerous times after the FW incident using the same information, nav logs etc which they DID NOT beg, steal or borrow - just a thought.

[Phileas Fogg]

Quote:

allow the engineers to buy some spares before they are needed, pay the company's bills on time. (nothing to do with not having the money). etc.etc.etc.etc.etc......(ad infinitum)

And just a final thought from me,
Say Again, if I were your chief pilot and you walked into my office itemising such complaints I would send you packing.
Once again you're not coming across as a team player, I presume you're a good pilot, you'll need to be because if you're going to involve yourself in the politics of other departments then there's going to be those waiting to piss on your party.
Where does this mentality come from, 'I'm a pilot, I'm the most important person in the airline, it's my duty to involve myself in everybodys business'?
You're probably not this type of person whatsoever but that's the impression you're putting across. Again I say that I presume Emerald is your first airline, I say this because you seem to be under the impression that all other airlines have stocks of rotable spares on the shelf for when next needed, you're living in a dream, and very rich, world Slowly.
To get on in any company, not just Emerald, might one suggest you concentrate on flying the aeroplane, leave engineering to sort out their politics, accounts department likewise and you do what you're paid to do.
Nothing personal, I don't even know you, it's just the way you come across.

[Civil Servant]

Phileas,

You must be MOB coming up with a post like that. People need jobs which is the only reason lots of them put up with Emerald and the complaints are a symptom of this.

Does being a team player involve knowingly doing something illegal and by such action being part of it? (eg complicit with being rostered into discretion).

If I were Chief Pilot and someone came to me complaining about constantly being rostered into discretion I wouldn't send them packing seeing as it is forbidden by CAP371. I would hope that I already knew of it and had done something to stamp it out. If I could not influence things in that area I would have to consider my position as well as get straight on to the CAA. Mind you, if the mobster has made up his mind and issued an edict that FTLs are wrong and should be used as a guide only, then that's the way it WILL be so perhaps I'm being a little hard on my hypothetical Chief Pilot.

Just an observation

[Phileas Fogg]

Civil Servant,
Next time, try reading my post before responding to it. It may be fair comment about being rostered into discretion, it is illegal for a pilot to be rostered into discretion before reporting for such a duty.
My post referred to complaints regarding engineering spares, paying bills etc. If one has a particular complaint that affects the way they perform a particular duty, such as discretion, then fair enough but there's such a thing as going too far, and that's when people stop listening to such an apparent 'busybody'.
Discretion is exactly what it says, it is at the discretion of the individual whether they exercise it or not. It is apparent that individual(s) are agreeing to exercise such discretion and then coming here to bitch about it afterwards. Some might regard that as being 'two-faced'!
Of course, if they declined, as is their right, to exercise discretion in the first instance they'd only have engineering and accounts to bitch about. Why not leave the engineers and accountants to do their own bitching and one concentrate on flying his aeroplane.
I'm not even going to answer your allegation that I 'must be' MOB, that just shows a mentality that anyone who doesn't agree with your personal opinion(s) leaves themself open to such an allegation.

[jindabyne]

Phileas

I have no connection with Emerald other than browsing through this thread. I've no wish to be personal old chap, but you do seem to come across with highly self-righteous views in this 'debate'.

If I felt that engineers and accountants and ops people were not making a full contribution to the team(through either personal weakness or management/organisational failing), then I'd feel quite justified in airing my view. To imply that pilots should simply do what they're paid to do and keep it zipped on other issues is, in my laymanistic view, unrealistic and unhelpful. Equally, I'd expect the engineers, accountants and ops people to voice THEIR opinions over perceived unsatisfactory elements of the Company that are not within their bailiwick. It's life, it's healthy, and it makes for a better team in the long run - when properly managed.

The culture which you espouse doesn't seem to be helping within BA right now?

[CR2]

Ladies & Gents, don't let this degenerate into a slanging match. I'd also like to warn about using real names.

:suspect:

[Phileas Fogg]

Jindabyne,
So how is it constructive to air 'dirty washing' in public?

I don't know the first thing about flying a plane, should I start to criticize how pilots perform their duties? Is this 'healthy' and will it lead to a better team?

I don't think so!

[jindabyne]

Phileas

Missing the point. I'm not talking about how the engineer tightens a nut, or how the pilot flies his aircraft - it's more about how they contibute in general terms to overall Company performance. Individual skills are not the issue in this discussion, are they?

[Germstone]

the only way emerald operates is on the goodwill of the staff at the sharp end.

by and large crews will carry defects not in the log to get the a/c round the houses on a particular night schedule.

engineers wont snag a/c if at all possible till the end of the flying programme.

ops will make sure there are crews available even if it means waking people up at 0300hrs

and all the other unsung heroes of emerald will do there very best in demanding conditions to get the job done

but would MOB be impressed with all this?......i doubt it.

his view would be "well you have a job dont you"

his idea of aircrew and engineering is that they are a neccesary evil within the aviation industry.

trouble is he wont tackle his staffs problems he wouldnt dare come on here or address his staff directly and explain things he would rather hide behind his puppets and let them do the dirty work.

all IMO of course and what do i know in mobs words im just another f***** d****** member of staff

the big problem is it could be a fantastic place to work but its managed into mediocrity by so called "industry experts"

[Phileas Fogg]

Germstone,
You speak a lot of truth there but would you really expect any Chief Executive to come here to discuss matters with his staff?

I would add however that the 4 complaints you have listed are somewhat commonplace within the industry. I'm not suggesting that every airline operates this way, just that such practices are not unusual.

The difference in your situation however is that rather than get a pat on the back, you get a slap on the head and driven into the ground more than you were previously.

Look on the bright side though, you're probably using Emerald as a stepping-stone in your career, things should get better!

I've read a lot about being rostered into discretion. Such a practice is illegal but so is the practice of those Captains who have other jobs and don't declare their duty hours in accumulation with their flying duties.

It's a long time since I've read CAP371 but I recall it clearly stating to the effect that ALL duty hours shall be recorded and rest periods / days off shall be free of ALL duties. Whilst this is no excuse for rostering into discretion it does show that some, I repeat some. individuals only choose to quote the regulations when it suits them.

These particular individuals would be operating illegally, probably, on a daily basis if they're not utilising their rest periods etc. as per CAP371.

Not taking anything away from yourself though Germstone, yours was a pretty accurate post.

[Germstone]

hi

appreciate that response Phileas

mainly a dig and kick up the ass for the upper management at emerald. ARE YOU LISTENING????

with very little effort and good feedback from the troops they could make the whole place a much better and slicker operation.

but are they prepared to listen???...... the answer is sadly no.

they would rather bury there heads in the sand and let the whole operation muddle through as always!

[Phileas Fogg]

I read this recently:

'if the mobster has made up his mind and issued an edict that FTLs are wrong and should be used as a guide only'


The FTL's are as per the Operations Manual, not necessarily CAP371. The Operations Manual is approved by the 'Campaign Against Aviation', if it is said these FTL's are wrong then the Operations Manual needs amending, of course such an amendment will need to be approved by the CAA.

Until such time as the OM is amended then you should operate to what it dictates, it is not advisory, it is mandatory!

I'm not sure what an 'edict' is but if it's something that is intended to override the OM then surely it should be a 'Flight Crew Notice', which I believe should also be copied to the CAA.

I believe that such a Flight Crew Notice, or even an edict, cannot be issued by the Chief Executive, it needs to come from the Head of Flight Operations, if you have one!, or his deputy.

Not suggesting stupidity here but are you sure people are being rostered into discretion, I only say this because I have known commonplace confusion regarding such things as split-duties and FDP off-duty times. An FDP ends at final on-blocks, it's the DP that ends 15 or 30 minutes later, that's not discretion!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Unfortunately Phileas, the fact that I am a "team player" comes across by the fact that I DO give a monkey's about what happens to the other departments. After all, aren't we all trying to achieve the same goals?

If I went to the CP and mentioned about spares, then he would be correct in not acting directly, the state of the spares inventory is down to the engineering manager, NOT the Chief Pilot.

Phileas is not the MOB, though he is known to peruse and often post on PPRUNE, I find it sad that our 'dirty laundry' has to be aired in public on an anonymous forum, just to try and get some action.

Having a decent amount of spares may not be that usual, but most airlines usually have more than a couple of spare tyres, which we don't even have very often!

Why should any company be happy about being a stepping stone? Having a stable workforce can only ever be a good thing, currently the vast majority of flight crew (non LPL based) are looking to move on. Not because of the job or pay, but because of the contemptous way we are treated on a regular basis. For example, down in the Coventry base the toilet block lights failed, despite repeated requests nothing has been done and that was over 3 weeks ago!! How happy would you be at 1 in the morning trying to pee in the dark! :oh: If the HSE ever made it into that hangar............

With referance to FTL's, as a professional pilot, you should know the rules and if you are rostered illegally, then you should do something about it BEFORE the duty starts. This has happened to me on occasion and with a phone call to Ops, it is usually sorted out. If you know the rules, then no matter what pressure they try to put you under, you can always refuse, safe in the knowledge that you are in the right. It may cause much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but that's their problem. My licence is worth far more to me Emerald is.

Should we be put in this position, no of course not, but the onus is on us to make sure what we do is correct.

Phileas, I can assure you that people are regularily rostered into discretion on Flight Duty, NOT total Duty time. I've lost count of the times I've seen people fiddle their FD, not a practise I condone at all.

[Phileas Fogg]

Why should any company be happy about being a stepping stone?

Say Again,
It is the nature of the beast. From the day a commercial pilot steps into the industry his goal is to be flying a big shiny jet, preferably during daylight.
Any turbo-prop operator, particularly a geriatric turbo-prop operator flying night freight, has to accept that such pilots aren't going to stick around any longer than is necessary.
The exception to the rule will be those nearing retirement age or the ones with other occupations. This is no excuse for treating staff with contempt but it is the nature of the beast.
From the sound of it, you are not 'originally rostered' into discretion but are 'roster changed' into discretion. I can speak with some authority when I say that there is a lack of understanding of the regulations within Operations, not saying all, but some.
Emerald cannot attract Operations staff of experience, partly thru reasons that have been flogged to death already, partly thru being off the beaten 'aviation' track, a lot to do with salaries and lets face it, and much the same as a pilot who wants to fly a shiny jet, can an Operations guy consider his ultimate goal to be working in a portakabin with bars on the windows!
Accordingly, Emerald struggles to find experienced senior Operations personnel and the assistants, well some are better than others but they're just young guys, plonked in the chair and told to get on with it.
Unless things have changed, staff training, well what staff training and by whom? Much the same as your situation, it's results that count and how those results are achieved, well who cares!

[Say again s l o w l y]

That's exactly the situation in relation to rostering! Though it does seem as if a shake up is happening currently, and every time I speak to them there is a new person around, we'll see what happens.

Your point about Emerald always being a stepping stone is valid up to a point. For many, it will always be just that, but some have no intention of moving on, particularily in Liverpool.

I object to the way all the staff are treated, just because they aren't expected to stay for very long, but, if people were trated in a non-bullying manner and with some basic respect, then the issue of staff turnover would be greatly reduced, especially amongst the Op's bods, who quite frankly have an almost impossible task on occasion.

[Germstone]

i think the above post sums emerald up to a tee


all departments make the impossible happen but do we get any thanks? do we get regular pay reviews? (at least 4 years since any rise).............no the beatings wil continue until morale improves.

i have no axe to grind emerald pays my mortgage bills etc etc but leaves me very little to have any sort of standard of living and as mentioned basically ive taken a pay cut 4 years running....that is unless inflation has been zero!

some basic improvements in working conditions and practises a resonable pay rise across the board and some appreciation of the staff that make emerald profitable.

would pay dividends in the long run

i say again "ARE YOU LISTENING EMERALD MANAGEMENT"

[I've shed my load!]

I'm a first timer at prune so please be gentle!
As far as I'm concerned all I'm looking for is a bit of stability. At present I feel the morale is rock bottom.
Stability was achieved with Streamline so why can't it be done with Emerald?
At Streamline we were sufficiently crewed so that we could have a rolling roster which enabled you to plan for the weeks ahead, which in turn provided you with a social life! (I've definately forgotten how that used to feel). A call from ops outside of standby hours or on days off would be to ASK not TELL you to do a shift, which usually resulted from either crew sickness, a/c tech or possible charter (not cock ups from HQ).
I could go on and on and on but I don't want to give the perception of being a streamline lover/emerald hater. Believe me I truly believe Emerald has the potential to be a decent airline. Oh well here goes........

Possible solutions to boost morale:
1) Rolling roster for cvt and ltn (not difficult)
2) Expenses and duty pay paid on time
3) SOME NOT ALL ops staff to possibly attend our CRM sessions and have a grasp of the FTL'S. Remember manners don't cost anything.
4) Standardise contracts-come on it's been long enough now. (2 pilots do the same job but 1 gets paid 4.5k less per year.
5) A light bulb for the cvt toilet.

Other than that it's happy days my fellow buddies!

[Germstone]

A light bulb for the cvt toilet.

that ones easy go out buy one and fit it yourself(in true emerald fashion)...put receipt in

wait for it to be authorised

wait for it to go to accouts

wait for it to be processed

payment arrives maybe 1-2 months after


ahhhhhh maybe thats why nobodys been and bought one

[Say again s l o w l y]

1-2 months, that's quick! I've stuff that's still 3-4 months outstanding and that's pretty normal.

[Phileas Fogg]

FTL/Common Sense Lesson 1:

1. At what point may a crew member opt to exercise discretion:

A. Once that duty has commenced?
B. During the commercial planning stage?
C. Before that duty has commenced when Ops are in the sh1t?

2. When does a crew member legally need 11/12 hours
uninterupted rest?

A. Immediately after a duty period?
B. Immediately before a duty period?
c. Whenever the damn phone stops ringing?

3. If a crew member is on regular nights at what time might it be sensible to call him for a roster change so as not to interupt his sleep(s), let us say off duty at 0400, next report 2200?

A. Before 1200?
B. Between 1200 and 1600?
C. After 1600?

4. Define 'suitable accommodation'?

A. A 2 star hotel in Runcorn adjacent to the dual carriageway
and railway line to London?
B. A cheap guest house on IOM?
c. A quiet room where the levels of light and temperature may
be controlled?

[dada]

i can't understand youz lot who write so much about emerald. save your efforts and repeat after me

a right shower of ????

[HighandTight]

Guys

I know we have had to wait but this is all about to get sorted. Or at least it will get our best shot.

'Say again', 'Phileas', 'germstone' et al - if you are Em crew and signed up with Balpa, you will get all the details soon. Will be looking for your support when we (the crews) start trying to sort these problems out for real. If you are not members, please join!! If you don't see any changes in the next few months, feel free to quit. But right now we need you all in.

It will though be interesting to see how many pitch in and help me and how many just like to stand and complain!

Guys, if you need to, PM me. Otherwise hang on a few more days. ;)

[Phileas Fogg]

I wouldn't pin too many hopes on Balpa, they're very good at taking your money but protecting the workforce, just ask any Dan Air pilot that was there at the end!

[HighandTight]

I'm not. I'm pinning my hopes on me, you and the rest of the crews having the getup to do something given the opportunity.

It's better to try and fail than to p*ss in a toilet with no light - as Confucious may have said, had he been at CVT!;)

[Germstone]

some interesting posts coming in.

ok as crews with balpa being quite small in numbers in the scheme of things at emerald.

any way we can bring the full weight of the workforce into the proceedings.

As I feel the only way forward is to have the whole workforce make there feelings known and force the issue as emerald management will never listen to distant voices but a big shout from the troops may promt them to sit up and listen.

4 years with no pay review is like treating the staff with contemp and also is a massive insult to the hard working staff which make emerald profitable

[HighandTight]

Germstone - drop me a PM if you want to know more and are not in Balpa. Unless you are the MOB that is - then we'll be speaking soon anyway.;)

[Say again s l o w l y]

Phileas, nice one!:ok:

H&T, I'll be interested to see how it goes, I'm not bailing yet and my BALPA subs are up to date, go get 'em buddy!

[74Freight]

2 points of interest,

1) All the lights in the toilet at CVT are out suggesting a more serious problem than just a bulb, maybe a fuse?

2) Even when the lights were working, there was a disgusting smell of rotten p**s outside the hanger door, particularly in dry weather, maybe the next groundschool should include toilet training sessions for those too lazy to get the key to the loo.

[Germstone]

dear emerald aircrew

please check out the thread below as it relates to the way your aircraft are looked after......or not as the case may be.



http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=142792&highlight=emerald

one of the engineers wanted you made aware as a moderator had moved the thread.

[HighandTight]

We know mate - we have to fly them!:(

[mike coy]

At great expense the illuminations have now passed their MOT and the lights are now on all over Europe. End of p dark

[Germstone]

HOORAY


emerald now have something that works.........!!!

[Night Freight 1]

H&T check your PM:ok:

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Just out of interest say again slowly how long have you been working for Emerald Airways? You see I couldn’t help but notice that you registered on 28th March 2000, but have only recently started making posts on Emerald Airways. Also you posted at the end of 2003 that you where in search of your first airline position (I’ll spare you the link).

I think you should be careful about what you say on a public forum as it doesn’t take a genius to work out who a Shed pilot in the company 7 or 8 months or so may be. Narrows it down quite a bit doesn’t it. Now before you accuse me of being MOB I will just state I am not, nor am I connected with Emerald Airways in any way. Also I must say as a relatively new employee of Emerald I find it incredible that after such a short time you have developed such disdain for the company who has given you the opportunity which will no doubt lead to bigger things.

Also you are on VERY dodgy ground claiming that you are, quote, “regularly rostered into discretion”. Sorry but I don’t accept that for one minute. If that was happening on a regular basis the CAA audit which occurs every six months (don’t forget the random spot checks which can, and probably do occur) would put Emerald in deep ****. Being rostered into discretion is illegal. If they are rostering into discretion the ops staff will also have to go back and change the rosters of the pilots, which incidentally have to be kept on file, to avoid being bubbled by the CAA. Best make sure you have a COMPLETE understanding of FTL’s, FDP's and the nature of discretion before you approach the authority with that little chestnut.

Now if I have incorrectly assessed your profile I do apologize, and feel free to correct me.

[Phileas Fogg]

Impressive,
I believe, rather than being rostered into discretion, it is moreso instances of untrained Operations staff, on or near to the day, re-rostering the pilot without understanding the regulations.
A simple explanation of 'excuse me sunshine, is that not illegal?' to the Ops guy would be sufficient and which is understood to be happening but it's much more sensational to say 'rostered into discretion', a little bit like 'BA crash landing in Entebbe', attention seeking I guess.
Yes, Emerald does have it's problems but many of them are 'industry standard', much of the complaints seem to be guys in their first airline believing they are the only ones hard done by and once they move on from Emerald the streets will be paved with gold!

[HighandTight]

Phileas

It's a little unfair to say that guys in their first airline job have no right to complain!

Whether its your first or last job with an airline or any other company for that matter, you have a right to decent treatment. Many of the problems with Emerald are not industry standard - I don't know of any other airline that does not provide food, drink and toilets for it's crews.

When you join Emerald, you are fully aware of the salary. What you are not aware of, for example, is that the company will arbitrarily change the command requirements to suit a complaining minority, without consulting the pilots, thereby taking away commands from several who were due and qualified.

All we want is reasonable treatment. The average burger flipper at McD's gets treated better than we do.:yuk:

[Phileas Fogg]

H&T,

Quote: It's a little unfair to say that guys in their first airline job have no right to complain!

I didn't say that nor anything of the sort, I was merely making a point that many, not all, of the complaints are not unique to Emerald.

Quote: I don't know of any other airline that does not provide food, drink and toilets for it's crews.

A toilet where, on the aeroplane? Food & Drink, well try a low cost Irish carrier just for starters, drink OK but food, many airlines have stopped providing food, like I said, many such problems are not unique to Emerald.

Like I accepted, Emerald has it's problems, you've continued to itemise some of these which I'm not in a position to comment on but some of the other complaints are industry standard.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Impressive, if you read my post properly, you will see that I mention that our rosters get changed and put us over our allowable flight duty period. If this is not being rostered into discretion, then I don't know what is, but as I have stated before, the onus is on all of us as crew to make sure what we do is 'legal', so as Phileas mentions a quick call usually sorts it out albeit with the occasional argument. If you know the ops manual properly and the FTL's, then you shouldn't have a problem though.

Emerald is not my first company, but even if it was, as H&T says, why should you put up with shoddy treatment. I've been there a bit longer than 7 or 8 months too!

I personally couldn't give a monkey's about crew food and drink, the issues I have I've already stated.
I really would like to see the company prosper, even if from purely selfish reasons, but I feel like I'm staring into the abyss sometimes when you see the unrest, unfortunately if it carries on like this, I can see the awful prospect of Emerald getting into serious difficulties as we lose contracts because we don't have the staff or available machines to complete what is asked of us and that suits no-one.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Just out of interest, what is your understanding of fdp's and discretion? The flight duty period starts when you report for duty 45 mins or 1 hour before the flight depending on the contract and ends when you go off duty back at base or in the hotel if away. Discretion is used solely as a means of getting a duty finished that has ALREADY BEGUN!!! You cannot legally roster someone into discretion. It is illegal and Emerald would lose their AOC if found by the CAA to be doing such practices. This i know to be true from links i have to the CAA. They do not condone illegal rostering in any form and regular checks, which incidentally are often done without warning, are carried out. I think you are getting confused about what is and isn’t allowable. Ops/ Crewing can ask a crew to do a duty/ favour, and if this request is within 12 hours then they are perfectly within their rights to refuse. Normal practice for airlines is to give 12 hours minimum notice of a duty so technically anything within this could be seen as a favour. Your duty does not however start when you receive that call unless you are actually on standby. Ops could legally not give you a roster that jeopardized your rest at base etc as they simply aren’t allowed. All duty times and rest periods are entered into a database that flags up inaccuracies in fdp/ dp/ rest and this CANNOT BE FIDDLED! Discretion is only used once a duty has begun, and a max of 2 hours is allowable. Also anything over 1 hours discretion and/ or 1 hours reduction in rest must be submitted to the CAA in writing, and so regular rostering of the kind you suggest would instantly be flagged up and your company would be in deep ****. So therefore if wx is ****e or the aircraft is tech you can as a crew elect to use your discretion and continue. You also can elect not to as is within your rights, and i would suggest that if you feel you are being illegally rostered into discretion you tell your operations/ crewing department and let them sort it out.

[Phileas Fogg]

Impressive,
It is not so unusual for a pilot not to clearly understand FTL's and you yourself have just proved this point.

The FDP does not end when one goes off duty at base or when one reaches the hotel if away from base.

The FDP ends when one is 'on blocks' on one's final sector thus any discretion would end at that point. Thereafter, and under normal circumstances, there is a nominal period of perhaps 30 minutes between end of FDP and off duty.

If away from base and travelling to a hotel then this is covered under FTL's 'travelling time'. Under normal circumstances what time one may reach a hotel bears no reflection on the FDP, DP or discretion.

If your 'links' to the CAA say otherwise then they are talking from their butt!

This has already been covered with the Emerald Guys and previously established, before your recent posts, that Emerald are not producing illegal rosters but it is untrained Operations staff changing rosters without checking or indeed understanding the FTL's.

Say Again claims this to be illegal rostering and I guess from his personal point of view, that he finds he has been rostered illegally, he feels justified to say this but, Emerald are not producing illegal rosters, they are however not training their staff correctly if at all!

[Say again s l o w l y]

What Phileas says is also my understanding. What time you get to the hotel or go off duty doesn't affect your FDP, but it does affect how much rest you need. For instance if you have done a 15 Hr duty you need 15 Hrs rest, though your Flight Duty may only have been a couple of hours. There is nothing 'illegal' about this, but you do have to have enough rest.

You cannot be asked to go into discretion, or rostered into it and our original rosters do not ever do this, Unfortunately as the roster are about as accurate musket mistakes happen constantly. A culture has seem to have been built up where crews will change their on duty times in order to not have to file discretion reports, so very few get filled in. I don't like that one at all.

[Phileas Fogg]

Say Again,
Pilots & paperwork, well ................ another industry standard.

At a previous airline, 90% of the pilots wouldn't or couldn't complete a discretion report and those that did, well it would need rewriting.

I would complete the discretion reports on their behalf and 'pritt stick' their signature onto it taken from a leave application or similar before photocopying it for forwarding to the authority.

Was this illegal? Yes, but we got away with it for several years and were never questioned, in fact we passed each and every inspection with flying colours.

[Impressive_Wingspan]

Phileas, yep my mistake, as you said it's the DP not the FDP that finishes when you are back at base or in a hotel (tired last night, i was talking crap). I couln't agree more with the points you have made regarding industry standards, the grass is always greener!

[Phileas Fogg]

Impressive,
The duty period, under normal circumstances, ends at the airport, it ain't nothing to do with your A.T.A. at a hotel. If a hotel is more than 30 minutes travelling time away then we enter a different 'kettle of fish' but let's not go there!

[straightnotlevel]

i think weve covered the f t l scheme and toilet illumination now guys, can we talk about something else??? is anyone actually driving back from stansted after doing a 12 hour fdp and positioning from some remote ryannair destination?? did they survive?? i thought youre supposed to hallucinate after being awake for 24 hours??

[jafo33]

yes, yes, no!
Next question:)

[Say again s l o w l y]

24 Hrs, naah. 25, now that's a different matter entirely!