JAR-OPS 1.405 question

[DanBaxter]

JAR-OPS 1.405. Commencement and continuation of approach.
(a) A pilot-in-command may commence an instrument approach regardless of the reported RVR/Visibility but the approach shall not be continued beyond the outer marker, or equivalent position, if the reported RVR visibility is less than the applicable minima.

Was just wondering if anyone could clarify what constitutes the "equivalent position" that is mentioned. Is it 4d, the FAF, or 1000' aal, or anything else?

Thanks in advance,
Daniel

[M.85]

id say it is the 1000ftAGL point.
I dont see the purpose in starting the approach when the WX is below the minima as it will most likely be the same when you reach the OM(Precision app)or 1000ft AGl(Non precision app)..
But legally I believe you can start the approach if wx is below minima but go missed if by the om?1000ft agl the wx remains below the landing minima.
However if you flew passed them and the wx gets below minima..you can continue the approach until DH/MDA..if by lets say 200ftDH you see some approacg lights..you can drop another 100ft(DH becomes 100ft)..

Of course i stand to be corrected by the moderators..

M.85

[Miles Magister]

Take care when in Italy.

They have recently amended their national procedures. An airfield in Italy can declare Cat II or Cat III Ops even if the RVR is above Cat I limits. You can not commence an approach unless you meet the declared Cat, even if the RVR is in your limits according to JAR or your own certification.

The details have not made the Jepps yet.

If you do an approach to JAR limits and the airfield declare a higher Cat then you get a free Quality audit on your returned flight paper work and aircraft check, but they don't sign it up in the quality manual for your quality manager!

[Daysleeper]

explain all that bit after quality again?

[Miles Magister]

DaySleeper, Good call.

Dan,

JAR-OPS 1.405 d

(d) Where no outer marker or equivalent
position exists, the commander or the pilot to whom
conduct of the flight has been delegated shall make
the decision to continue or abandon the approach
before descending below 1000 ft above the
aerodrome on the final approach segment. [If the
MDA/H is at or above 1000 ft above the
aerodrome, the operator shall establish a height,
for each approach procedure, below which the
approach shall not be continued if the
RVR/visibility is less than the applicable minima].

And From JAR-OPS 1 Section 2 AMCs and IEMS

IEM OPS 1.405(a)
Commencement and continuation of approach – Equivalent position
See JAR–OPS 1.405(a)
The ‘equivalent position’ mentioned in JAR–OPS 1.405 can be established by means of a DME
distance, a suitably located NDB or VOR, SRE or PAR fix or any other suitable fix that independently
establishes the position of the aeroplane.

IEM = INTERPRETATIVE/
EXPLANATORY MATERIAL

Basically use 1000' above aerodrome level and you are fine, except in Italy as per my earlier post where they ignor JAR-OPS 1.405 and make it up as the go along to trap unwary smelly Englishmen who don't read the Italian AIP daily!

[DanBaxter]

Thanks for the replies so far, however it's still not making much sense!

Where it says the Outer Marker or equivalent, what I'd really like to know, is what this "equivalent" point could be.
Does anyone have a definitive answer, as in a standard DME distance? For example if you have an approach where the FAF is 5d from threshold, would you use this as the equivalent point, or would you use the 4d distance, or would you just use the 1000' AGL point? It just all seems a bit ambiguous to me!

Cheers,
Daniel

[Daysleeper]

Sorry dan I'm going to hijack your thread for a bit, I promise to get back to the original topic in a mo.

Right Miles, just to clarify,

RVR at Lasagne international airport is 600 meters. Atis is saying " Cat 2 operations in progress" I come along in my cat1 aircraft (550 rvr required on the jepps) and carry out an ILS to minima and land all nice and safely. Then the italians do what ? prosecute, complain to JAR? And if this is a state difference why is it not in the jepps if it is in force now. And then what , in my Cat 3b machine we always ask for cat 2/3 if the rvr is even vaguely close to cat 1 limits. Cat2/3 ops gives signal protection for autolands amongst other things.

Back to dans thread

In the old days the final distance checks on an approach would be by 3 marker beacons. Outer, Middle and Inner, all they were/are is a simple vertically orientated radio signal so as you passed through the overhead you would get a pulsed tone in your headset and a little light would come on (er blue, white and orange) Nowadays , middle has gone inner only survives in a few places and outer is rapidly going.
Nowadays the position fix could be an Outer Marker, or an NDB (or a co-located LOM locator outer marker) or a VOR station or a DME range from anywhere or any other fix that is in about the same place as the outer marker used to be before they were all ripped out as too expensive/unreliable etc.
So if you fly over a VOR at 4.5 miles that would be a reasonable equivelent of the old outer marker (inner was usually the threashold anyone remember where middle was?) If there is no equivelent position , however derived then 1000 feet agl (3 and a bit miles) is the check height for your RVR.


sorry for the spelling , its been a long day.