ATPL questions for sale

[Potter1]

who's got 650€ spare? :O


http://www.flyer.co.uk/news/newsfeed.php?artnum=97

[Field In Sight]

Unfortunately I think the sale of these questions could backfire on everybody else still studying for the ATPL exams.

If I was the JAA I would probably approve a whole new set of questions to be introduced to counteract this.

This would definately be a problem as I don't agree taht the ATPL exams prove a very good test of knowlege or even a test of exam technique.

They really test you on how good you are on JAR ATPL type questions (i.e. mostly b%llocks) and specifically remembering copious amounts of feedback.

I did here a rumour that the JAA were going to release all of the question bank into the public domain. This was just after I was sitting my final set of exams (Nov 2002). Obviously it didn't happen.

Good luck to everybody else doing it.

May the force be with you!

FIS.

[long final]

I agree, this is something we could really do without. All we need is the JAA rushing through a new set of questions, as happened at the beggining, and we are in trouble.

I hope they don't make a penny.

LF :*

[silverknapper]

Fair enough guys - but you have to admit for just a second - it's tempting!!!!
What this made me think of was the PPL confuser. Surely this is not the best system either?
In the meantime anyone wishing to start a syndicate to buy them should contact me!!!!!

[long final]

silverknapper,

Now I never said it wasn't tempting :E

I will be sitting MOD 2 in a couple of months, so have done most of the hard work already, so I am happy to admit there is a degree of jealousy in my opinion, BUT, if they do (Big IF I agree) decide to start again form scratch I would not want to be sitting any exams for quite some time.

Alex seems to think that with the Q&A's being quite old the status quo will prevail. I hope he's right.

Cheers
LF

Now, about that syndicate ........ ;)

[silverknapper]

I'm on mod 2 soon also - and you're right it would be impossible without the feedback! An interesting option for any resits perhaps?????

[long final]

There you've got me.

If I was in a re-sit situation, and if I'm honest, show me the questions, maybe - my morality can be a tad shallow at times :p

If I'm honest,

First, if I have had to do the time, so should everyone else - now I know this may appear selfish, but talk to any instructor and he or she will say the same.

Second. If the course material wasn't so bloody in depth at times, with absolute crap you will never need, but related more accurately and concisely to the job you are aiming for, I would be much happier loosing a chunk of my life learning it.

Anyhow, thank you for highlighting my miserable moralistic effort. :suspect:

Good Luck with Mod 2

Back to the books.....
Cheers
LF

[IanSeager]

The JAA aren't about to create another QB from scratch because of this.

They'll continue adding to the QB they have, but there's no way they'd dump all the questions already in the QB

Ian

[flying paddy]

anyone found the website address, cant find it. Curiosity is killing me. Help.

[High Wing Drifter]

There is no way anybody is going to memorise the answers to thousands of questions.

Take Gen Nav, there are about 20 different styles of question, each with futher permutations of parameters and 'best fit' answers. What you have to learn is the abstract - how to solve the problem.

Take Met, there are so many possible answers from one question, that a bit of weasle wording will soon get you in trouble if you just learn by rote.

Take Flight Planning, the answers are all there, you just have to know where to look.

Instruments, hmm, possibly. But again, the weasle wording will send you the wrong way. Learning by rote is a recepie for environmental capture.

Errrm M&B, easy. Just remeber the forumla. No rote is even relevant. If you need to cheat on this then you shouldn't even be flying.

The only possible use this question bank could be is for the 'easy' subjects, HPL and COMMS. COMMS is a no brainer and HPL just requires a little bit of effort.

Personally, I think the JAA question bank is very cleverly put together. Not only are they testing your knowledge but your ability to work between the gaps, extract the relevant detail and your ability to make light work of heavy weather.

I predict that you will get what your Ground School has put togther...plus all the dross! Now you have to sift through it. In short, more work and more chance of failing.

[peb]

I think that it is worng that they sale the question bank I think that should be free.
I have seen that question bank and I can say that is very good but it is written is Europenan english. And it does not have any anexs.

[maeshyfryd]

And there's me thinking that the whole point of spending 6 months of my life studying was to learn all the subjects in order to pass 14 exams and use what I've learnt in the future. Not memorise a load of questions.

[Flypuppy]

As Mr. Seager rightly points out it is very unlikley that the JAA will scrap the CQB because someone has released a batch of questions. There are a few websites offering feedback that have been gained in the age old way of people remembering questions when they come out of the exam hall. Add to that the torturous method that the JAA approve questions by committee, the length of time it would take to get a years worth or questions just doesn't bear thinking about.

There is no substitute for learning the subject. If you try to memorise questions alone you will fail. Guaranteed.

What feedback can provide is getting the "feel" of how the the questions are worded in euro-english. If you practice enough with feedback you start to recognise certain patterns and in certain cases be able to pick out the correct answer before you have finished reading the question. Dont forget, though, the devious b:mad: ds at the JAA & CAA know this and will go out of their way to try an trip you up. Caveat Emptor.

On saying this, my own experience is that feedback does play an important role in getting through the exams, just be careful not to rely on it as some sort of "magic pill". The exams require a bucket load of hard slog.

The argument as to whether it is relevant to being a commercial pilot is pointless. The authorities have decided it is, so we just keep jumping through the hoops until the rules change again and the goalpost are shifted once more.

[Jimmy The Big Greek]

Does anybody have the site url where you can buy this exams?

[Mass Times Velocity]

Not sure if this is the exact site being mentioned but worth a try

MTV - I've removed your link. Not being precious about advertising or morality but pragmatic. The format and questioning techniques are so different from the published FAA question banks as to render them useless. Memorising the answers doesn't work in anything other than the two or three baby subjects. Trying to use these answers for the rest of the papers will lead to tears and failure. The feedback techniques are much more effective for JAA exams. However, anyone desperate enough will be able to find them with a search engine.

Rob Lloyd

[flying paddy]

Rob

Your reply smacks of censorship, thought this was a free medium, and where serious pilots are free to make up their own minds. some of us have passed our exams and are interested to research the feedback world. Yes we can find it with a search, but this is website that is used to pass on ideas and thoughts, and not have that ability taken away due to one persons opinion.

[PPRuNe Towers]

Paddy, it's a matter of choice. I choose not to have the link here. Half an hour ago I chose to switch the search engine back on for the night period.

If I get things consistently wrong this site will echo to the sound of rolling tumbleweed. So far and for the prior 8 years this hasn't happened.

This is a private site and it is censored somewhere many, many times a day both automatically and through the intervention of our mods. Every reader makes the decision as to whether visiting here is, overall, worthwhile.

We have never advertised, never issued a press release. You all found us and not the other way around. This forum stands for wannabees and not those making a living from them. This includes thieves trying to scam 450 quid from the hapless, lazy or dim.

It's just another way of looking at things. It's the opinion of one person. The opinion of one person created this site. The opinions of one person (WWW) forcefully put created this forum. That's how these things happen. Sometimes we offend people but we are the ones who create, innovate, develop and actually make things happen. We are working professional pilots who put something back instead of taking from wannabees.

However, and as an accurate generalisation, those who collate and disseminate feedback on any significant scale are also making at least part of their living from wannabees.

Regards
Rob Lloyd

[Mass Times Velocity]

I fully agree with Flypuppy that there's no substitute for properly gained knowledge when it comes to the JAA ATPL exams. I wouldn't waste my hard earned on buying apparent question banks and only put up the link for (hopefully mature & intelligent) people to decide for themselves as to their worth. These question banks aren't a quick-fix solution to not having learned the course content properly, their only useful purpose as I see it is to give you some idea of how questions are phrased and what exactly is being asked. Spend your extra e650 with your ground school for extra grinds, you'll learn more and most likely get the passes 1st time out.

The site provides an informative, useful and often funny resource and deserves full credit for doing so, if it is deemed by the Mods to be for the greater good that the link was inappropriate and should be removed then it's not without good reason.

MTV

[flying paddy]

Point taken, and I agree about making money from wannabees, god knows I spent enough, my own personal reasons are honest enough, trying to get the feedback and info out to the newbees for free, the way I wished it had been done. Truth be told we have all used the feedback route in some way. This will always be a geat site.
Regards
Flying Paddy

[onehunga]

It does not necessarily have to be 650 euros anyway. At the time of writing 945 peeps had viewed this post. For under a quid you could rally the troops grab a set of those notes put them on a website or share them via p2p or burn them or whatever other creative way you can think of. Then those of us that value studying can continue following the lesson plans that the schools provide and use the question bank merely as a refresher and for exam practice. Some peeps will invariably "cheat" (I use the term loosely) and try to rote learn the material. Good on them if they can get away with it although they might well become unstuck at any job interviews that have a technical bias. Power to the people!

[AIRWAY]

There is no substitute for learning the subject. If you try to memorise questions alone you will fail. Guaranteed.

I agree with Flypuppy, i tried the method ( PPL Stages ) with the confuser and it wasn't easy... :rolleyes: Definately the best option for me was to read the manual do the practise questions at the end of each chapter, then when i finnished reading the book i would go straight to the confuser.

( im talking about PPL level, i have no experience at the moment regarding ATPL study )

[Jinkster]

if you can learn god knows how many questions from the data bank you can learn how to do the methods involved in passing the exams

[peb]

I have seen one of the files that they are selling and it is horrible. It is difficult to see where stars one question and were finish. And something that I do nor really like it is that only has the right answer. The one I saw before this one is it much better (very clear and with all he options).
I would not pay anything for what they are selling.

:ok:

[EuroSkat]

Try going into that website now and see what you get. Yahoo have taken it off their geocities website.

I think it's because the JAA have carried out an investigation into the matter because of copyright issues. Anyway, the question bank that is being offered is from 1999/2000, there are no annexes connected to any subjects, and only a relatively small amount of questions actually exist now from that version. In the 5 years since the 'disastrous' start to JAA exams, there has been a huge amendment process taking place to eradicate questions that are just not worthy of an examination, to the extent that the bank is now at least manageable from the Authorities' viewpoint.

Anybody purchasing those questions is a fool, and will ultimately fail the exams - it's a waste of time... and money. There is no substitute to training!

I know the official bank was 'leaked' (country not named!) a few years back when some person was trying to sell it direct to flight schools. It's no coincidence that what was being sold then, and on offer now, is the same and came from the same source....

[Jinkster]

thought this was too good to be true :hmm:

[My names Turkish]

I would like to second what has been said about memorizing questions, it doesnt work. However they are very helpfull in that you can have similar questions and if you can answer one type you can answer others. I'd still like to see these questions, if anyone has bought them and fancies e-mailing them to me, I would be obliged, or if they have shared them on any peer to peer network?

[pipergirl]

all the same...when u r slogging away trying to juggle a job, ATPL studies and general life, things can get a bit tough.
I can see how someone could be tempted by this, but at the end of the day, when you have ur pass results in ur hand after all ur hard work I'd say the feeling would be tremendous and you'd have such a sense of acheivement... ;)

But can u imagine buying these questions, using them rather than study properly, and subsequently getting a flying job.
I'm sure that person would be forever looking over his/her shoulder wondering if anyone will ever find out that they cheated.
Or they might just carry on with a sense of guilt about doing it....??? It would demonstrate bad judgement/immaturity on the individual's part and would definitely indicate that they are not suitable to the responsibilities of the job.

I think it would be a mad thing to do. Just get the head down and study, you're the only one who's going to make it happen for yourself. There's no such thing as a free ride in this life me thinks!!!! :O

[WX Man]

BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH learning questions no substitute for proper learning BLAH BLAH BLAH.

You people annoy me!!!!!

This is no doubt true for some subjects (like M&B, some of the Met syllabus, some of the Law....).

But when it comes to learning objections, (sorry, objectives) like "Describe the political situation at the end of World War 2", there is no substitute, as far as I'm concerned to learning the answer to the relavent questions.

I'm learning to fly aeroplanes, not regurgitate this c**ck!

[TheDrop]

The most recent CQB question in the "6000 CQB slip" is October 1999, almost 5 years ago. There are no annexes enclosed, just a database. The Italian CAA are the ones slipping it, "Risposto A/B/C/D" is Italian, is it not? Italian students receive from the schools the old exams papers, original PDF files from the Italian CAA, not scans/steals or anything, but that is apparently "the Italian way" to do it.

Estimates/rumours I have heard of CQB size today is anywhere from 8000 to 20000 questions, the true size probably being somewhere in between.

Should the CQB be public or not?

It shouldn't, in my opinion, but on the contrary, there are so many questions that are either wrong, formulated in a way so it is not a matter of knowledge, skill or airmanship, but a set of grammatic traps and poor/complicated English, to lure a wrong answer from the student.

Objections? There is no useful way of santions. ATPL instructors have to teach students in which case they have to answer certain CQB questions WRONG because they know for a FACT that these questions appear in the CQB, and answering them correct gives a wrong CQB answer. There is the real truth and the CQB truth. Then there are the vast amount of completely irrelevant questions. Example: The student has to know not only all the GPWS modes, but also what numbers they are. Who in the world has any use of knowing that "Too low terrain" caused by flaps is mode 4A (or whatever the number is). Heading hold or heading mode is an example of a wrong question. In the Oxford series of JAA ATPL books it is even printed in bold that "Note, the auto pilot does NOT go into heading mode, but rather heading hold". The question is of course the one where they ask for what happens when overflying the cone of confusion over a VOR. Heading mode would make the autopilot follow the heading bug, which it does not, rather, it holds whatever the heading is when entering the Cone of Confusion, and re-engages VOR mode when it gets out again. If you answer this question correct (heading hold), you get a wrong mark, because the JAA CQB "truth" is heading MODE. And who cares, all the student know what it really does, what does it matter if the name is "mode" or "hold"?



Nelow, I shall list from a JAR AGM FCL 1 JAA's own rules for the CQB. Rules, which they do not themselves comply with.

Who is to decide over or control the JAA?

A lot of text, so I shall mark the places of particular interest. Look especially at "9.":


CONSTRUCTION OF COMPUTER COMPATIBLE QUESTIONS

JAR AGM FCL Feb 2002:

JAA Administrative & Guidance Material
Section Five: Personnel Licensing Part 2: Procedures
Section 5/Part 2 10-13 01.12.2001
Attachment 2

CONSTRUCTION OF COMPUTER COMPATIBLE QUESTIONS

1.The following principles should be observed when developing questions for the central question bank (CQB).
General
2. The examination should measure clearly formulated goals. Therefore the field and depth of knowledge to be
measured by each question must be fully identified.
3. The more important the field of knowledge, the more questions should be included in the examination, or the
more points the answer should be given.
4. Most of the questions should be of the multiple choice type with four alternative answers.
5. Questions should relate to the essentials of the fields of knowledge and not to minor related detail. Numerical
questions which differ only in the numbers used and not the method of calculation test the same knowledge;
nevertheless, a variety of examples of the same calculation should be available in the CQB to help to minimise
cheating.
6. Purely academic questions which have no practical use should be avoided, unless they relate to fundamental
concepts. Examples of academic questions which are acceptable are the role of dihedral and camber in
aerodynamics, and the definition of dew point in meteorology.
7. Questions which require specialised knowledge of specific aircraft types, should not be asked in a licence
examination.
8. Use abbreviations and acronyms only in forms internationally recognised. In case of doubt use the full form,
eg angle of attack = 12 degrees instead of "= 12°. A list of recommended abbreviations for examination
purposes is in IEM FCL 1.475(b), (See also Attachment 3 to this Chapter).
9. Formulate the questions and answers as simply as possible: the examination is not a test of language. Avoid
complex sentences, unusual grammar and double negatives.
10. A question should comprise one complete positive proposition. No more than 8 different statements should
appear among the suggested responses otherwise the candidate may be able to deduce the correct answer by
eliminating the unlikely combinations of statements.
11. Questions should have only one true answer.
12. The correct answer should be absolutely correct and complete or, without doubt, the most preferable. Avoid
responses that are so essentially similar that the choice is a matter of opinion rather than a matter of fact. The
main interest in MCQs is that they can be quickly performed: this is not achieved if doubt exists about the
correct answer.
13. The incorrect alternatives must seem plausible to anyone ignorant of the subject. All of the alternatives
should be clearly related to the question and of similar vocabulary, grammatical construction and length. In
numerical questions, the incorrect answers should correspond to procedural errors such as corrections applied
in the wrong sense or incorrect unit conversions: they must not be mere random numbers.
14. Questions must be referred to the examination syllabus/learning objectives. [The level, eg ATPL, CPL,
should be indicated.]
15. An examination sitting should normally last for between 2 and 3 hours. Exceeding 3 hours may result in
wrong answers because the candidate makes errors through fatigue and not because the answer is not known.

JAA Administrative & Guidance Material
Section Five: Personnel Licensing Part 2: Procedures
Section 5/Part 2 10-14 01.12.2001

16. The author must estimate a reasonable time for answering: about 1-2 minutes, but could vary from 1 to 10
minutes. Consequently, the number of questions for a specific examination may vary.
17. Any documentation required to answer the question (eg tables, graphs) must be provided with the question.
Such documentation must be of the same typographical and accuracy standards as normal aeronautical
publications. Tables and graphs must include a typical example of their usage. All other documentation is
forbidden.
18. Question producers may assume that a simple pocket calculator is available to the candidate.

[OneIn60rule]

That would NEVER happen. Does anyone realize how long it could take them to fill it up again with 1000's of questions?

The only thing they will keep doing is the same thing the FAA does for the written tests, they will simply keep adding 4-10 questions into each subject every year or however often they add them.

If they suddenly did decide to scrap all the questions then again it would make no sense because they would invariably come up with the same type of questions all over again in the future.

There's one thing that desperately needs fixing though and that's the way they ask the question. If you ask a question then it should not require a 6 year degree of cryptology, should it?


:D

[jd10k]

Call me 'old-fashioned', but surely someone who has passed an exam by memorising answers, rather than understanding the principles behind flying, is going to be a danger to themselves and others.

It may be that pilots cannot understand the relevance of some of the questions (particularly Air Law questions about various conventions) but in general the reason the exams exist is to promote a certain level of competence in the appropriate subjects. Surely cheats would be found out within minutes of landing their first job. ("Fill in this load sheet" "What's one of those?")

Just put my flameproof underwear on, waiting for replies.

John

[High Wing Drifter]

You can't really memorise answers for M&B or Gen Nav or anything to do with charting, whizz wheels or sums! It could be argued that for the remaining subjects, Ground Schools do indeed get you to remeber answers to questions!

[OneIn60rule]

How can you cheat if it requires you to know roughly over a few hundred questions for one of your exams and you have no clue if the answers you memorized will be within the hundred you learned?

It's only cheating if someone tells you exactly which questions will come up on YOUR EXAMS and which answers are absolutely correct. Otherwise it's requiring you to do a lot of work, yes WORK and if you do over a 1000 questions then the odds are that you really are learning your subject.


Like my friend said> It's how you make use of the F.Questions.

[Bigglesthwaite]

I am not sure if I understand the concern. Most schools have question banks available (some schools apparently get students to 'debrief' on their exam questions) and you can buy the Oxford ATPL questions on CD for 30 pounds...

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

The stolen question bank seems to have ducked out of view these days. It was a guy called Eduardo Castro, based in Portugal who was selling the database. The questions were not "feedback" but an actual, JAA database stolen from Portugal. I purchased the instruments database. It was my third attempt and final exam so it seemed liked a sensible addition to my existing feedback and text books. Sure enough, I took the exam and everything that was in the database appeared. I couldn't believe it. It shows how little updating the JAA have done to their question banks over the years. Much of the feedback from my ground school was also proved to be incorrect in some way. Many of the questions and answers were so obscure that there was no way you could answer the question without having seen the question.

If you can find the stolen database, I'd suggest that you buy it. I don't have details of where to get it nowadays though.

[peb]

You dont have to learn the 6000 questions. Many of them have annexes that you are not able to find in the CAPs or anything like that. I guess that everyone can at least reconice the questions if you have seen them before. And actually the question bank comes from Italy.

:ok: