Turning on the runway

[pilotpj]

Hi,

I am sure I have read somewhere about the direction to turn on a runway after landing if you have to back-track, but I cannot remember the answer or where I read it so here goes.

Which way should the aircraft be turned after landing to back-track the runway? I would think the answer would be so the pilot flying (handling pilot) is on the inside of the turn as this would give the best visability but I don't know if there is a set rule. I'm a PPL with aspirations to fly the big ones so this is not really important, I am just intrigued.

Thanks in advance,

PJ

[quid]

Assuming the radius of turn is the same in both directions, we teach that the handling pilot should be on the outside of the turn. Once you've commited to the turn, visibility isn't of much value. You're going for max deflection of the tiller in either case.

The reasoning is that you've got a better feel of just where you are relative to the edge of the pavement if it's on your side.

A good drill when you're new to an airplane is to put your flight kit on the ground outside your side window, in line with the outside edge of the main gear tire. Then climb up into the cockpit and look at where your kit is. In most cases, it will be much closer than you'd imagine it would be. In many cases, you can't see it. That means if you can see the pavement at all, you're still on it and not in the grass.

[TopBunk]

In BA on the 744, it is taught (in general) that you parallel the runway edge and turn into the turning circle, however there are some places, MRU for example, where local setup demands the opposite. On the shorhaul fleets you turn initially into the turning circle then swing round back onto the runway - but then again smaller aircraft can usually turn round in much tighter areas, so it is not as critical.

[Basil]

At Orlando Sanford SFB the west end (i.e. landing on 09) turning circle has a yellow line guiding aircraft into the turning bay. A colleague asked ATC if he could turn the other way (i.e. parallel edge then turn into bay) and she said any way you like so it's worth asking.
I much prefer the parallel approach.

[compressor stall]

From the perspective of a non airline pilot -

Always prefer to turn to the right. Puts me (in the LHS) on further away from the centre of the turn, and much more in tune to teh momentum of the turn etc.

Also I am closer to the wing that is going to hit anything, and the wheel that would/could run off the tarmac. I also operate turbine in and out of poor airstrip surfaces, and I find that that helps looking at the ground closer to the edge where it's usually of poorer quality.

[FlyingForFun]

Another non-airline pilot, and another call for turning to the right so that I'm sat on the outside of the turn. As others have said, I want to know where the outside wheel is.

Fascinating to hear from Quid how difficult it is to know where the wheels are on airliners. I have generally found, on light aircraft, that you can see the wheels quite clearly in a high-winged aircraft. In a low-winged aircraft, it's usually impossible, and I usually try to remember to note a handy reference point on the top surface of the wing to remind me where the wheel is, e.g. on the Europa the outriggers are in line with the outside edge of the flaps, whereas on the PA28s that I sometimes fly the wheels are directly below a rubber thingy (which I'm sure serves some other purpose besides reminding me where the wheels are, but it's quite handy for that!)

FFF
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[wandrinabout]

If there is a significant crosswind component, then I make my turn into wind. Minimises any chance of the aircraft "getting away on you" until you come out of the turn. Also helps to minimise turn radius and reduces the possibility of having to brake through the turn.

[411A]

In the Lockheed TriStar, prefered to turn initially into the turning bay, and have the flight deck well out over the weeds before coming 'round with the tiller to complete the turn, left or right.
Always taught this as well, for best results.

[pilotpj]

Thanks everyone for your input.

It makes sense to be in close proximity to the edge of the tarmac. I just wasn't sure if there was a 'right or wrong' way to turn. I fly the C152 and PA-28 and usually turn right but with a view to flying the biggies, I didn't know what the deal was and always wondered as I'm half way round the turn if I am breaking any rules.

I appreciate the time you've taken to reply.

Safe flying

PJ

[quid]

Afraid I'm going to have to disagree with 411A.

If you envision Rwy. 36 with a turnout on the right side of the end, it will look like a P. The best way to turn to utilize all of the pavement is to hug the left edge, go to the end and make a hard right. My a/c has a turning radius of almost 140 ft. and is about 30' longer than the L1011-500, so I've got to make sure I've got everything going for me. I have a much better sense of where the nose wheel is as opposed to the mains.

Due to the torque forces on the inside gear, we can't use brakes on the inside to tighten the turn, so you've got to get it right the first time.

Wind direction has no effect on turning a large airplane, but if it's a little slippery, if you apply too much power, you can skid the nose gear and that will increase your radius.

pilotpj - in answer to your question, there's not really a right or wrong way to turn as long as you keep it on the pavement. Hope you get to fly the big ones soon.

[xdc9er]

Here's a thought, If you hug the parrallel side and try to to turn and line up on centreline( for T/O), with out using up valuable runway, it is kind of dificult to make that turn(on runways width limited , with an acft with a large turning radius)however for maximum runway remaining and to line up on centreline I believe an initial turn into the 'turning bay' would be more beneficial.

[reverserunlocked]

Turning around on the runway in a biggy always fascinates me. At least in a tight space in a car you can just back up a little bit, or in my trusty PA28 get out and push!

Can't do that in an A340... Will anyone admit to ******ing it up and having to call out a pushback tug? Bet that's VERY embarassing.....:\

[mutt]

Picture a runway which happens to be at a military base, you have a turning circle which is to the left, ie, backwards "P". However the sides of the turning circle are surrounded by trees in close proximity.

Would you prefer to start your turn into the turning circle or from the other side of the runway.......

Mutt.

[Onan the Clumsy]

Which way to turn? Well, it really depends on which side of the runway I end up on during the landing :}

I get to do this on 17 at AUS and always turn left, not for ant real reason though, other than it's towards the terminal. Still that runway is so big, you could almost take off across it.

[411A]

guid...
Different strokes for different folks, for sure.
The method I outlined was recommended by Lockheed as the turning radius of the standard body TriStar is 148 feet.
In addition, on rather hot/soft asphalt, initially turning into the turning bay minimizes the stress on the runway surface, and is required with some middle-east runways, by notam.

[Pilot Pete]

Agree with 411A on this one. Our ops manual for the 757 and 767 recommends the method he has described, turning into the 'P' before reversing the turn back out of the 'P'.

And just for you reverserunlocked, I admit (although not the one controlling the a/c at the time, but taking just as much blame for the error) to once passing the last available exit (the one at the end being closed!) in a 757-300 and suddenly realising that a 45m wide runway (the one we were on) was a couple of metres narrower than what the ops manual said we needed to complete a turn! A couple of red faces and a request for a marshaller on the ATC frequency, and they spoke very few words of English and didn't understand what we wanted! Luckily it was pretty quiet at the time and we knew the a/c could 'physically' complete the turn, but the limitation was put in because they didn't want you trying to turn the a/c yourself on such a narrow runway.

It became more comical when a follow me car turned up, pulled in front of us, put his 'follow me' lights on and then did a 180 turn in front of us! We again explained that what we wanted him to do was marshal us as close to the runway edge as he could before turning us..........so he got out of his car and just started waving us off in the direction of turn............! Luckily he did position himself in front and kept waving us as we swung out the nose over the grass and back thinking that it looked ok and that the mains would stay on the tarmac. He jumped back in his car and speed off thinking what a pair of idiots we must be...........and to be honest I guess he was probably right!:E

PP

[wandrinabout]

quid -

Wind direction has no effect on turning a large airplane, but if it's a little slippery, if you apply too much power, you can skid the nose gear and that will increase your radius.

My comment regards considering crosswind when deciding the direction of turn were intended for pilotpj, the originator of this thread.

You say wind has no effect on large aircraft. Admittedly the a/c I currently operate is not large, however if wind does effect my aircraft (which is just under 20 tonne), then I dare say it will affect pilotpj in his C152/PA 28.

pilotpj -

If you ever get the opportunity to log some tailwheel time (most beneficial and enjoyable) , then making the turn into wind becomes even more of a consideration.

[FlyingForFun]

If you ever get the opportunity to log some tailwheel time (most beneficial and enjoyable) , then making the turn into wind becomes even more of a considerationAnd even more so on floats. So much so, that there is a special technique (the "plough taxi") which is used for turning downwind in strong winds. And if the wind is really picks up, then even this technique won't work, and the only option is to switch the engine off and "sail" backwards :eek:

FFF
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[wandrinabout]

pilotpj

Almost forgot. All other things being equal, a turn in circuit traffic direction is a good idea - allows you to observe the pattern for any traffic prior to commencing the back track.

More relevant to uncontrolled strips, never the less, not a bad habit to get into.

Cheers.

..forfun

Good call, and too true. On floats with two engines to play with is the way ahead....

[reverserunlocked]

Thanks Pilot Pete, that made me chuckle.

These things do seem to happen in the places where the language of aviation is least well spoken! It's not like waving your hands about can really help either...no-one's invented a hand gesture for 'can you marshal us to the edge of the runway before turning us please' :cool:

[Daysleeper]

course in a turboprop you can just do a 3 point turn! Saw it done by a SAAB Viggen fighter once in sweden too, very cool.

[pilotpj]

Thanks again to everyone,

Pilot Pete, a very funny story - I have read many of your posts and you seem to have a wealth of experience. I hope I can match it someday (although I would be embarrassed to get into that kind of siuation!)

Wandrinabout, thanks. That is useful advice and I missed a valuable opportunity to have a flight in a chipmunk this summer and now slightly regret it - however, I believe everything happens (or doesn't happen?) for a reason!!

I didn't post this question expecting so spark so much response. I'm glad I did now - it is very interesting. I will think of something else the next time I'm up there!

PJ

[Pilot Pete]

I was once told by my first Chief Pilot

"aviation is simply two buckets", I looked quizzically and he explained further,

"When you start in aviation you have a bucket full of luck and an empty bucket of experience. The trick is to fill the bucket full of experience before you empty the other bucket of luck!"

That's rung true for me so far................!

PP

[FlyingForFun]

PP,

I heard something very similar, except that they were pockets when I heard about them, not buckets.

But having seen the amount of experience which so many people have, and the amount of luck which I've used already, I think you must be right - it would definitely take something more bucket-sized than pocket-sized to hold all that luck and experience!

FFF
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PS - I have, once, been unable to maneovre the aircraft where I wanted it. I misunderstood where ATC wanted me to park, and when they pointed out that I was in the wrong place, I was too close to the fence to be able to turn around. This was in a monowheel Europa - turning circle probably not much less than an airliner, because there's no differential braking or anything, just a little tailwheel to use when turning. Fortunately, no marshallers or pushback tugs required - just get out, lift the tailwheel off the ground, and push the aircraft to the proper parking place!