Airline Industry - Too old??

[karanou]

Is 34 too old to commence training to become a commercial pilot? I already have a well paid (if not mundane) job.

Now I can afford the training, have i left it too late in life?

Any advice appreciated

Many thanks

[no sponsor]

No. Do a search on the forum, and you will find many who have also done a career change in their thirties to train and become professional pilots. You'll never be chief pilot in BA, but there is no reason why you can't make captain flying a shiny Boeing or Airbus before it's time to hang up the goggles.

[reido]

Karanou,

Thank goodness somebody else has posted this- I am also 34 Karanou and agonizing over whether to take the plunge and go for Oxford and ruin my career and financial life and probably lots of other things too....but it's wrecking my brain.....it's the big question- are we too old????? If the answer were a definitive no, I would go for it- but it is the biggest single worry, much more than the finance...

[six-sixty]

You're not alone! I'm 35 and I'm going to quit my nasty job and do my atpls at home full time just as soon as I get my bonus!!

I did lots and lots of research on this. I originally wanted helicopters, and apparently there is much less age discrimination in that industry but the problem is with the North Sea winding down there's far fewer jobs. I therefore decided on fixed wing, and the reseach I've done indicates although big jets may be unrealistic, smaller regional turboprop operators can be disposed to look favourably on the older folk as they are less likely to be desparate to fly big airbuses and the like. This suits me fine, though make sure you're happy about what you're likely to earn. More hand-flying, less time away from home - perfect!

If you don't have it already I strongly recommend the Clive Hughes book http://www.flightstore.co.uk/the_guide_to_becoming_a_professional_pilot.pilot.books/use.id.10.item_id.369/

[reido]

Good post 6-60,

Where are you planning to do your training and who with? Are you not worried about not getting a job afterwards or never flying a jet? Can you return to your career easily should nothing come up?

regards,

[Epic_mg]

Recently a well known airline employed a guy in his forties, he had to cough up money for an airbus type rating before being accepted, however he's now enjoying a new airline pilot career.

Hope this helps

[scroggs]

Please do a search on this topic within Wannabes - it has been covered probably more times than anything except 'which school'. Use 'age' or 'too old' as the search words and then set aside a day or two to read through all the threads you will find.

As a clue, Capt Pprune (Danny Fyne) was in his late thirties when he started. He now flies B737s.

Scroggs

[karanou]

It would appear the only thing holding me back now is my lack of motivation, money and flying ability.

I rekon i've got it cracked

Seriously though thanks for the replies


Take care

[CAP509castaway]

Before considring spending up to £65k, have you taken a trial lesson??????????????
If not get down to your local airfield and start straight away , also you may pick up some friendly advice from the CFI

Goood Luck:p :p :p

[GrantT]

lack of motivation

If you've got no motivation why bother?

[karanou]

Thats a good point GranT

Thanks for that!!!

:ok:

[six-sixty]

Reido, in answer to your questions I'm still undecided about where to do the training... was considering USA for the CPL, as hopefully it'll be winter by the time I'm ready, then back here for the IR. Stapleford looks a good bet for me given reputation and near where I live.

If I don't get a job?? I am semi prepared for that one, in that at worst, I get to spend a year or so "off" from work, and that doing it will be an acheivement in itself. If I can't fly commerially then at worst I'll be a better private pilot.

However, I truly believe that I will get the paid flying job I covet.

I'm an IT project manager, so hopefully I could go back to that.... but that is too depressing to even consider. In summary, Failure is sort of an option, but I'm not going to waste energy thinking about it too much yet!

[0hunter0]

Hi,
My dad was 38 when he first started flying and now he is a senior line training captin with a turbo prop operator flying all over europe.
There is definately hope for you all, but one word of advice would be to go have your initial class one medical done before you invest any money at all! It would save you alot of time and money if you were to fail it.

Regards.

[Ropey Pilot]

0hunter0,

Couldn't agree more about the Class 1 medical! Sure it's expensive (initial still about £400?), but you can't fly for the big boys without it at some stage - and £400 is peanuts compared to the £40,000 you are about to spend if you find out early on that you can never pass it!:(

You can never judge your own medical fitness - one of the applicants on my army pilots course was a v fit Para, consistantly outrunning butcher's dogs etc. Aircrew medical not only prevented him from doing the course, but led to a discharge from the army! (Apparently he thought that the fact he was p!$$ing blood just meant he was training too hard - turns out his kidneys were packing up:uhoh: ).

Anyway karanou, all the best whichever way you jump!
:ok:

[karanou]

I cant outrun butchers dogs, but on the flip side i'm not pi$$ing blood either so you never know!!! - I am haemmoraging cash at an alarming rate already though - but I dont suppose thats anything new to anybody here is it??

Is there any point in gaining an IMC rating prior to attempting the CPL course?

I have been informed this would help ensure the CPL doesnt drag on due to "english weather" - is this info ive been given accurate??

Many thanks once again for the help/advice

Karanou:ok:

[Mr Magoo]

I'd want to be the last person to dampen that dewy eyed enthusiasm we all have when trying to convince ourselves to chuck in a solid job for the wonderful world of CPL/IR BUT:

I started my ATPL writtens on my38th birhthday in June 2000. I'd passed them all by Christmas that year and did the flying part of the course by the end of April 2001.

Sent off lots of CV's along the lines of gissa job I'm 38 and have a fresh new CPL/IR and 400 Hrs total (30 multi - wow).

Unsurprisingly no job offers but the advice was "do an MCC course" I spent a couple of grand on one and finished it the last week of August 2001 - sent of lots of CV's dated 10th September 2001.......no job offers

"Ah you need more hours mate" said those in the know, so in 2002 did an FI course and am now instructing with about 1100 Hrs in the 'ole logbook.

I've just talked to an airline about why they're not interested when I fit their recruiting criterea as regards hours etc and the reply is "you're too old and we'd regard you as a training risk"

Asking around the industry - (and at the BALPA conference last october) - this seems to be a widely held view that someone of my age (41 now) ain't got what it takes to cope with a type rating course. Strange really because I do ATPL groundschool lecturing part-time was awarded a scholarship for my FI rating and have an engineering backgroud. Quite how that makes me more of a training risk I'm not sure!

Anyway - cut to the chase - I'd be VERY wary of going down the rocky road at your age, who knows, maybe you'll get a job the day after you qualify, I'd planned to be employed within six months of qualifying. That was nearly three years ago now. My financial state is in pretty poor shape, I estimate it's put me back at least a good, (bad?,) five years in pure financial security terms.

As I said at the start I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm but I've a feeling there are a lot of us "oldies" out there finding the same response from prospective employers.

But as the man said you shouldn't have joined if you can't take a joke!

Magoo

[six-sixty]

Mr M, that's a pretty tough story. Being in the exact position you're talking about i.e. just about to chuck in said job to go down the exact same path. I've got a few questions for you:

1. When you talk about "airlines" are you talking about all operators large and small? For example I don't really want jets, I'd rather work on smaller turboprops. Is the picture the same there?

2. We know from these boards that there are people who manage to break in at our autumnal stage of life - from what you have seen are the people that make it the people with an inside track (e.g. family on the inside)?

3. On the type rating issue, from your asking around have you got a feeling from them that they may take you on if you had one (I know this is an emotive issue on these boards!)

4. How much of the lack of job offers do you think is down to the industry downturn as opposed to your age?

You've obviously had a tough time of it and I hope you get your break very soon. Though you are not going to put me off personally (because I have the dosh and it's been a lifelong longing), if I was in the same position and had to borrow then I'd definitely be reconsidering.

S-S

[Northern Highflyer]

Karanou

Just to give you my view on the subject. I am doing the IMC prior to any CPL or IR training, not because I consider it of much benefit to the CPL part, but I do think it will give me a bit of a start with the IR. The IR is the toughest part of the course from what I have been told, so any insight or prior knowledge I can gain beforehand will be to my benefit. The IMC will give you some experience of navigation using radio aids and you will do some holds and ILS/NDB?DME approaches which are all part of the IR course.

The CPL is still done mainly in VMC like the PPL, so the IMC won't be of much help except for knowing how to use the Nav aids. This should make the position fixing and the small amount of IMC flying that is in the course slightly easier.

Of course if I am way off the mark someone will put me right.

[strafer]

Northern Highflyer - from my investigations, doing an IMC pre CPL/IR seems a sensible way to spend some of your hourbuilding hours (Instructors are dirt cheap after all :O). But with the weak dollar, it's possible to do an FAA I/R, which obviously includes an automatic IMC, for around the same price. (There was an article about it in 'Flyer' 2(?) issues ago).

Getting back to the thread - I sympathise with Mr Magoo (and look forward to his reply to 6-60), but why do we rarely get pilots who did manage to get jobs at a similar age giving info on these threads about how they did it? I can think of one called Danny who can spend a lot of time writing pompous missives on subjects he finds of interest but rarely writes on subjects like this where his opinion could be helpful. I'm prepared to be proved wrong, mind.

[Mr Magoo]

Not a tough story but fairly typical in the current climate I feel.

The too old thing seems more in the bigger jet operator sector but a personal conversation with the chief recruiter of a large TP company elicited the training risk quote.

I've got a couple of mates who are captains in two big jet operators and they push my case on a regular basis - with no result so far, (the company that one flys for has quite a few EU nationals who came to the company with type ratings and line experience - I'd offered to self fund my own type rating to get in with that operator but they weren't interested because they had a flow of these guys "on tap" so to speak)

Self funded type ratings - well ask ten people and you'll get eleven opinions - mine is that, like gambling, don't do it if you can't afford to lose your stake money. I can't afford to so won't be doing one but good luck to those that do.

As I said in the first post I'm not whingeing but just want to make sure that people see past the flight school hype - especially if you're older than your 20's.

[PPRuNe Towers]

A painful topic to discuss rationally.

It's entirely market driven. Training risk goes out of the window when a course has to be filled and filled now. That is the only fact in this business.

Additionally there are wise heads that appreciate the staffing stability offered by candidates with maturity and a family if the geographics coincide.

If I spout off regarding Danny and I starting in our dotages it's encouraging but essentially meaningless. We entered the profession at a different points in the eternal airline cycle. If you can guage where the market is going to be 12 or 18 months down the line with licence in hand you are wasting a lot of money. You should be at a desk or in a dealing room somewhere earning enough to run your own jet.

It's a risk, it always will be. Only you can decide if life not trying your hand would be eternally frustrating.

Regards
Rob

PS. My style checker came up with pragmatic, almost terse - suitable for debt collecting business correspondence only.
:ouch: :ouch: :ouch:

[carbonfibre]

OK here goes

Im now 37 and half way through my IR, it is difficult and the money goes not very far on this course.

However i came into flying some 5 -6 years ago after a trial lesson and basically have done a rating a year,paced myself and learned a lot through it. I understand i may not have a job at the end, but this has become a personal challenge too.

My aim is to fly with someone small, Turbo prop operator, regional etc , not worried about large airlines, i was extremely realistic when i came into this and i f i got a job working for an operator flying that paid enough for me to live on i would be very happy.

However if i dont get a job, although dissapointed, its not the end of my world, i have met fantastic people in aviation, and would continue to fly as a hobby with my IR and still keep applying.

I have never given up work so i have a full time job too, which like most of us with that middle age crisis is not that exciting and yearn to be in the office with the best view, that said, bills must be paid.

But most of all if you do embark on such a trek into the unknown, ensure your family is fully behind you, its expensive, tiresome and very frustrating.

But enough of that its all worth it if you understand all that was written on these replies that people have posted

Have fun flying and be realistic, you wont go wrong

Good luck

:ok: :ok:

ps, my first instructor flies for a regional and got first job at 42, know another at 51 and an AOC op at 36. This said they did have a few thousand on instruction but supply and demand and all that :8

[jam123]

How many of you think i have a chance to get my hands on a 737,757,767, A330 etc etc.

Im 31 and am planning to go from zero to frozen atpl this summer, integrated, at one of the big schools???


Place your bets

Thanks :cool:

Jam

p.s everyone's welcome for their views:ok:

[walkingthewalk]

Mr. Magoo: re the ""you're too old and we'd regard you as a training risk" response.

This is pure and simply a market force thing. If there was a shortage of qualified pilots with just the type rating then they would be in demand.

It's a shame really that when considering the pure motivational drive of someone in their 40s who REALLY does want to change his career and has been around and seen what life is all about, the airline industry places no value on this trait at all. I can imagine some people even willing to wash down that 737 every day if there was a chance of flying it for a living.

The long and the short of it is that we, who fall in love with flying - yes that's what it is really - cannot give it up no matter what. Once hooked, you will get close to spending all the money you have, run the risk of divorce and possibly gain a few ulcers.

Everyone knows that this industry is cyclical but who can imagine that the next cycle of upswing will be significant enough for airlines to reach out for the "oldies" and the high hours instructors. ;)

[Northern Highflyer]

If there was a shortage of qualified pilots with just the type rating then they would be in demand.
The key word being IF. There never really is a shortage though is there ? :(

I like the falling in love analogy. You know you are going to be penniless and that it's going to really p!$$ you off at times, yet you still do it.

Back to the books for me so that I can place my singles ad sometime next year.

"Male, early thirties seeks large bird for long loving relationship and to travel the world with. Will consider 2 or 4 engines. Colour (scheme) and looks unimportant" :E

[JohnnyPharm]

There are two opposing factors in this question. Number one is age, number two is finances.

An 18y/o school leaver is highly unlikely to have £40-60k to spare (unless he has filthy rich parents), whereas mid 30's guys probably do have the cash of their own to spare. So you've either got youth or cash on your side.

If the airlines want a constant supply of fresh meat, then they should dip into their pockets and start sponsoring again.

Having said that depends on who is interviewing you. If the interviewer was a mature self improver when he qualified, he may favour the mature self improver.

[walkingthewalk]

JohnnyPharm: Re. "whereas mid 30's guys probably do have the cash of their own to spare" I would also add that the given guy/gal is single or has a partner in the same industry and no kids.
Otherwise I cannot see how thay can honestly say that they have a happy family life when one of them is mostly away all the time and when they are home, rushes around trying to make up for lost time with partner/kids etc.

Re. "...If the interviewer was a mature self improver when he qualified, he may favour the mature self improver."

I can see this as a likely scenario.