Any Oxford graduates still looking? And for how long now???

[reido]

I am seriously considering OAT integrated this year, in fact, for such a large investment it seems it is the only place to consider in the UK. I would however be interested to know how many graduates out there from Oxford are still looking for a job and how much time has passed since you graduated? Give as many details as you can. You hear a lot of sales talk at all the various FTO and as this is the creme de la creme, it would be interesting to know success rates.

Thanks for your time.:ok:

[cjwpilot]

I graduated from OATS in September 2003 and have recently gained employment. I know I am lucky in getting employed so quickly after finishing my course, but that’s the way it goes. Right place right time. I know there are other pilots that graduated over 12 months ago+ that are still searching for even an interview but it does seem now, however, that more and more people are being invited to interview and getting jobs - so things are on the up.


Getting a job is extremely competitive and I think you need to give yourself the best chance you can of getting one. I believe that OATS definitely gives you that little extra. I think it's great to have Oxford on your CV, but just because you do doesn't mean you are guaranteed a job at the end of it. You still have to work as hard as you can to get the best results to prove your abilities. If you’re no good then the airlines will figure that out in the selection process.


Check out the link below to give yourself an idea of more recent success for OATS students

www.oxfordaviation.co.uk/jaa/app/jobs.htm

Regards

CJW



:O :O

[Saitek]

Hi Reido,

I am an Oxford Grad just finished integrated ATPL in Nov/Dec 03.

What can I say? I was taught at a management conference, a few years ago, that you don't try and sell the sausage you sell the sizzle... All FTO's will sell the dream and you're wise to be aware that at the end of you're training it may be difficult.

I worked my knackers off at Oxford and I have come out with first time passes and a 90% average in the theory exams and a grade 2, (good) flying assessment (which isn't bad as only Douglas Bader or the red baron could get a 1), and I have yet to secure an interview.

That though is not Oxford's fault, I thought the training was superb, their is a real work hard ethic but it's not at all square or geeky, they are professional and expect you to put the hours and dedication in but they will also have a laugh with you and spend time on any difficult bits.

The set-up has moved into the 21st century in the last year when they introduced the new sim block and extra student facilities and the facilities are now excellent.

You probably know that now the Integrated course is called the APP which I believe gives you more 737 sim time, Airline visits and other bits that leave you better served to take the big jump from Seneca to commercial Jet/Turboprop.

I would thoroughly recommend Oxford, I loved it, it is expensive but it also quality and I felt it was worth the additional money to get a quality foundation on which to build.

As far as them getting you a job, well they do have a couple of Airlines they are supplying to, with the possibility of more. I am in the career development departments holding pool now, waiting for a well known and big regional to request their next requirment of Oxford F/O's, in the hope of getting an interview.

The trouble is that there are a lot of people with excellent grades at Oxford and when the Airline does require more people all the details of those who meet their grade will be forwarded, with the Airline deciding which of those they would like to pursue further.

That may change for you though on the APP in the future and if the industry fully recovers I am sure good Oxford grads will all be snapped up.

The other problem is market forces and timing, recruitment periods are generally cyclical and driven by supply and demand which in turn is driven by social and economic factors and even if there are 100's of highly trained, willing and able pilots available if there aren't any jobs there aren't any jobs.

I hope this small novel helps you to make more of an informed decision. If you go to Oxford you will not regret it and try to take an objective longer term view, I know everybody wants everything yesterday, but just keep smiling, it's not just about arriving at your destination it's about enjoying the journey, if you succeed there it may not be instant but it will happen

Good Luck Reido.

:ok:

[reido]

Thanks for just two but very informative replies thus far! If I add to you the fact that I am 34 and am considering putting in 45+K myself- what sort of chances would you put on that? As I say, give as many details of your experience, age, etc so far... keep em coming!

[sally at pprune]

I've not been to OATS, so cannot comment on the course etc. However, I considered them very carefully before electing to save a lot of money by training elsewhere. One of the things that swayed my judgement was the lack of any evidence that OATS training was better than the alternatives (indeed, perhaps on the flight as opposed to theory training side, some evidence to the contrary), and lack of any evidence that paying the extra would secure better or more rapid employment upon graduation, when compared to other reputable training establishments.

My own assessment, for what it is worth, is that you are the vital ingredient, not the training establishment. The only way of gaining an advantage is to be selected for the CTC ATP scheme. However, I believe that you are already outside the maximum age limit (worth checking with www.ctcaviation.com (http://www.ctcaviation.com) to find out that from the horses mouth).

One tip to save money on the OATS course is to decline to do the MCC element. If you are lucky enough to get onto the ATP scheme, you will not need the OATS MCC. Many type rating courses include MCC, and even if you do subsequently find out that you need it, you can get a much cheaper tick in the box by going elsewhere than OATS. The saving might be much better spent on paying to keep current while looking for a job.

Whatever you decide, do not burn your bridges, especially as a career changer. Meet a lot of people who have been there and done it; and ask them about people they trained with who did not make it as well.

Good luck :)

[sqk0612]

Hmm- Thats 11 successes- out of how many graduates in the last few years? Not a high percentage, considering that 9 are from the Oxford website! You would think that Oxford, if it really wanted to put bite into their statistics, would have a strategy for a follow-up of their graduates' progress, after they leave college.

Or- maybe they do, and don't want to publish the results??

Why not phone or, preferably better, write to ask them the question which you have put to this forum?

[easyflyer]

There was a very interesting and highly pertinent thread running on the "@sk Oxford" career forum....

http://www.oxfordaviation.net/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=884

..perhaps the most interesting comment...:

"I graduated earlier this year. I am aware of the Jet airline interested in Oxford Graduates. This is the same airline which has been interested since March!!! Other airlines are also enquiring though the fact remains that few guys are getting jobs. I know of only 1 person from my course [of 20] and very few others. Oxfords reputation speaks loads when applying for jobs but my experience is that with the market at it is at the moment (it is looking better for next year) people with contacts within airlines who can put you in contact with the right guy are best placed"

Confound this industry!

[Groundloop]

"for such a large investment it seems it is the only place to consider in the UK."

Of course it is, because nobody else in the UK charges anything like as much as Oxford!!!

I know at least half a dozen excellent Oxford graduates who have been in the job market for over a year without any sign of a job.

[witchdoctor]

Hmm, almost sounds like me Groundloop.:D

Yep, 33, graduated summer '02 with first time passes, 90%+ average and good flying report. Oh, and a thoroughly nice chap too!

It took me 6 months to get into my current job (flying a C150 for a photo company) and not a sniff anywhere else.

The help you will get post-grad from OAT isn't all that comprehensive. They have some contacts, but very few better than you could manage yourself (i.e mostly just the name and address of the company contact for recruitment - I kid you not!). You will receive a regular update on what is happening regards recruitment at these special 'contacts', but it is all so vague and mysterious that quite frankly it is laughable. Sort of "I have had an airline (can't say who) approach us who might be recruiting this year (don't know when or how many vacancies). So if you're interested let me know and I'll pass your details on". You could do that yourself frankly.

The place isn't bad, but don't think they will find you a job - they won't. It's all down to hard graft and luck on your part. The guys on my course who are working all got their jobs as a result of their own contacts and efforts, as did all the guys I know from other courses.

[cjwpilot]

I know what you mean that some of the contacts are vague, but others are more solid. Given that you graduated summer '02 it would be understandable that you Oxford didn't have too many contacts given the state of the airline industry at that time. Things do now seem to be picking up.

I have had two interviews and I have gained employment with Oxfords help. You have to remeber that when airlines approach Oxford to see if they can provide pilots, they may have their own requirements and one of which may well be age. It seems that if they are going to take low hour pilots, they like them to be fairly young.



Regards

CJW

[BugSpeed]

I am an Oxford grad and concur with the rest of the guys on here about the professionalism of OAT. The work hard play hard ethic seems to work and the standard of instruction is superb from day one ground school to completion of the IRT profile.

To put a slightly different slant on it however, I came up through the modular route as I already had a PPL. There was no way I was going to go anywhere else to train, as many modular students do by chopping and changing FTO's, in order to keep continuity.

In essence this ends up parralleling an integrated course at about £10k less for exactly the same results so long as all training is conducted with OAT.

The other benefit of doing things this way is a consolidation of flying: 10 months ground school followed by 2 - 4 months flying (weather dependant) as opposed to 6 months ground school then 5 weeks flying, followed by another 4 months or so ground school and 8 weeks flying thereafter.

As I said, the net result of APP or Modular is exactly the same and to be honest, all of the CFI's (one of whom is a former BA DC10 jock) I've spoken to and a couple of line FO's and Capts have all said the same thing:

It doesnt make an iota of difference which version of the course you do unless you are applying for BA

I hope this is of use to you and yes: definately go to Oxford - You pay for the privilege but it will be worth it in the end.

[Arrestahook]

Reido,
if you already have a PPL and a few hours then def. go the modular route, at the end of the course you have the same bit of paper as every other mug in this position and saved a wedge in the process.

Getting a job is not about coming out of an Oxbridge esque FTO but about hard bloody graft afterwards and who you know. Undoubtedly Oxford can offer the best equipped training, but just say SIXTY FIVE THOW! a few times.
First time passes are what makes the difference when applying. You want first time passes in ground school, CPL and IR.

Oxford have a very poor first time pass rate for the IR. There are a few reasons for this - too much sim time, not enough in the a/c. No ILS facilities at Oxford (Read: costly positioning flight to another airport) + they are right in the middle of the country so have routes in 360 degress - too many to practice thoroughly.

In contrast Bristol or even Bournemouth have fewer routes, more time in the twin (modular) and consequently better first time pass rates. Plus you will pay far less.

In retrospect I would go to Bristol they seem to have a good, honest and reasonable setup with great results. I enjoyed my time at Oxford a great deal but in retrospect would have looked to Bristol, I certainly would never - ever pay £65K for an integrated course. If you are lucky enough to get a jet job and your £35K pa, just think how long that course fee will take to pay off. Madness.

[CrashDive]

W.r.t. 'First time passes are what makes the difference when applying. You want first time passes in ground school, CPL and IR'.

Err, I don't think so !

Over the years I must have said this dozens of times, in that, the airlines know what they can give to you - namely employment, training, opportunity, experience, pay, etc....... but what ( other than the basic minimum qualifications to apply for the job ) is it that YOU bring to them ?

E.g. If you had to choose from a pile of 1000 CV's and they all pretty much say 250TT / CPL / IR / MCC / etc..... the stop'em dead in their tracks entry will not be that you got xyz % in your exams or a first-time pass in such-and-such ( coz loads of your peers have got that too ).

The airlines know that you were born, we know that you have a name, we know that you can fly, we know that you’ve probably got a couple of hundred’ish hours in a light aircraft.

So just what is that special thing which separates you from the 100(0)’s of others with almost precisely the same qualification(s) ? What is your personal unique selling point ? What is it that YOU bring to the airlines party ?

Now if you can get that across it’ll be that which makes the difference – as pretty much everything else you have, from the aviation experience point of view, is likely no more than the equal of 100(0)’s of others.

So, imho - and within reason – quite where you did your training doesn’t make an awful lot of difference – the only really important thing is that you have the relevant license, plus that extra special something that gets you noticed enough to get your toe in the door !

[Arrestahook]

Crash Dive, I agree with you re the USP, but the first time passes is a personal opinion.
Of those I know who have come through Oxford, only the high achievers are getting employed. This probably says more about the individuals personality than their results specifically, but you cannot deny what it says about you as a training risk. Some one with first time passes or four attempts at an IR?
It is not the sole consideration with regards to achieving the goal of a first job, but with respect to Cloud Chasers origional question of where to train, it is undoubtedly of great importance.

[fly-half]

cjmpilot, congrats mate on the job, really chuffed for you as you already know mate. You were among the best in our class mate, passing everything first time and getting a very high average in ground exams. I know you worked very hard on the course and even harder in your selection process for your new employer so well done mate.

People on here should realise though that you were filtered by Oxford because you met the airlines requirements. Oxford did not recommend you but passed your details on to the airline and then they invited you for interview. As Oxford graduates (and no longer students) it is made very clear to us that we are not recommended by them but filtered. Please use the correct terminology when going for a meeting with the careers guy!

Intersting though that, when marketing themselves to prospective customers, they use the following :

The events of 9-11 brought about many changes within the airline industry - especially in the airline pilot training business. Whereas our customers were once airlines and air forces from all over the world, now our customers are self-funding individuals. We have never actively tracked where our self-sponsored students have gone after graduating from Oxford. Even those whom we recommended to recruiting airlines didn't necessarily come back and tell us whether they were successful at their interview and selection. However, we are now making a concerted effort to try and track the successes of our students and hope to publish those successes here. Of course, these are only the ones we actually get to hear about or have tracked down! Be aware, students from the APP courses are not due to graduate till May onwards next year. These job successes are simply OAT graduates whom have found a place with an airline, and whom we have managed to track down.


Even those whom we recommended to recruiting airlines didn't necessarily come back and tell us whether they were successful at their interview and selection.

Tut tut, very naughty I think.

I graduated in September 03 with cjwpilot and still looking. Oxford is a great place to train, the best ground instruction and set-up in the country. I definitely feel that an Oxford training has turned me into the quality amongst the quantity. Heck, it's the new year, things are looking up right?!

[Tenminutes]

I have read with interest all of the above abck door adverts for OAT and CTC but time for a reality check! I visited OAT as most freshers do before investing in such a gamble. My experience was a farce, my meeting was late, then wholy uninterested, a simple "theres the price, we are the best". There was no effort to sell the establishment. Having been in sales myself, anyone about to spend 60K plus would think twice under these circumstances. I chose to modular my training through Bristol who were excellent, best groundschool notes coupled with OAT superb, almost word for word exam feedback meant anything short of first time passes with high average grades unthinkable. I just read the notes then learnt the poetry, call it what you like but this ended in my total training from start (0) to finish (MCC) cost just £32500 including all CAA fees, half the price of OAT. Not bad (saved money that could buy type rating with change, if I were mad enough). The trick is to pass the flight tests in minimal time, first time. Anyhow as far as what the employment market looks like for graduates of one place or another, think first why some schools are so much more expensive for what is essentially less hours flying yet have so called deals with airlines. Certain airlines are very shrewed when it comes to making money as we all know, I would love to know how these arrangements work. Not beyond the bounds to think that if I were a large expensive school trying to justify my existence other than by name I might pay money or offer some similar training incentive to an airline to recruite some of my students, seemingly everyone is a winner, the school get a reputation as a good place to be seen, the airlines make money and a few lucky pawns get a job. I work for a well known large UK based airline where alot of the pilots worked through the ranks of PPL hour building CPL etc including years of instructing, yes there are a very few lucky low hour guys but they are the minority. As the CAA/JAR standards clearly state, once a student has met the required standard they are awarded a CPL etc regardless of how they trained, the paper looks the same or our most of the pilots in my company poorly trained because they worked hard and saved cash?? Don't think so, just in the right place when the market dictated. This may sound like a lecture but aviation is only run for the purpose of making money, if they can't make from pax they will make from students, please someone tell me another industry where one would be expected to pay so much to work where even the body set in place to regulate (CAA) profits from you?? Good luck with the search, age is not a factor, ability and common sence plus your own gut instinct. Advice always has an opinion.:)

[Dozza2k]

OAT's new product, the Airline Preparation Program, is as we all know new.
No one graduates from it until March I think.
Maybe things will look up then, but they probably won't eh?
But as it was said before, its a new year so obvioulsy things will pick up!
Dozza.