1 hour with an instructor. Can it be 2*30mins.

[18greens]

This One hour with an instructor thing for Biannual renewals.

What happens if you go somewhere else to do touch and gos then stop for tea and finish the detail on the return flight. Total time is more than 1 hour and all aspects of a renewal flight have been covered but each leg is less than 1 hour. Does it count?

[Field In Sight]

"complete a training flight of at least 1 hours duration"

Literally, I understand that to mean the flight (singular) must last 1 hour.

However, personally I would interperate that to mean at least 1 hour of training in flight and I would happily sign the log book if the flight(s) were satisfactory. Don't know what the CAA would do if they were recorded seperately in the log book and each flight was less than 1 hr.

I think the dual flight requirment makes good common sense and I would apply common sense by recording the seperate flights as just one.

The dual flight requirements are here:
http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4W378.PDF

FIS.

[IRRenewal]

Short answer: No

"complete a training flight of at least 1 hours duration"

This can only be explained in one way. It doesn't say "complete an hour worth of training flights".

However, I think the suggestion by FIS regarding common sense is worth considering.

Gerard

[DFC]

The rules do say "a training flight" (singular).

However, if one completes two flights with less than 30 minutes between, JAR-FCL states that the flights should be recorded as a single entry.

Thus a single log book entry of say dep 0900 arr 1030 flight time 1 Hour can be entered for both a single 1 hour flight (with a lot of taxi time) or 2 * 30 min flights with 30 min between. Who can tell other than the person making the entry? :)

So.....apply common sense, make sure that the time between flights ensure that you can legally record them as a single entry and get the most from the training provided.

I don't think that the JAA or CAA would wish to in any way penalise a pilot who had to call a flight short due to say weather and make that pilot repeat those parts covered in a subsequent full hour - provided that the instructor did not think that the standard displayed would warrant some more time.

Regards,

DFC

[Say again s l o w l y]

Exactly what DFC says, as long as there isn't more than 30mins between the flights, they can be logged as one.

I've done this a couple of times for revalidations and there has never been a problem.

[BEagle]

No you can't. Some in the PFA have been doing this apparently, but it is NOT acceptable; the CAA confirmed this recently.

A 'flight' is the time from the time at which an aeroplane starts taxying with the intention of taking-off until the time it stops taxying after completing a landing. If that's half an hour and you then have a cuppa and go back again, you have NOT completed the requirement. I agree that is plainly ridiculous, but we are talking JAA here....

However, that's thanks to the Eurocrats. For the NPPL , once the nonsense of the current temporary AIC (3/2004) has been superseded, we intend to phrase the re-validation (by experience) periodic training requirements to read:

“NPPL holders with valid SEP or SLMG aircraft ratings shall, within the 12 months preceding the expiry of the rating, complete flight training with an instructor of not less than 1 hour total flight time.”

But for the JAR-FCL SEP Class Rating, it must be one single flight of not less than 1 hour.

[18greens]

Ah, I was wincingly waiting for Beagles wise words.

Thanks for the information everyone.

And Blimey Beagle 4007 posts. RESPECT!!

I'm going to have to meet you one day, if I haven't already.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Where does it say you can't Beags? I've only found a statement about if there is less than 30 mins between flights, then it can be logged as one.

Even if this isn't the case, how would Cash And Aggro find out about it if it was logged as a single flight?

[BEagle]

From JAR-FCL 1.245:

(1) All single-engine piston aeroplane class ratings (land) and all touring motor glider’s ratings – Revalidation.

For revalidation of single-pilot single-engine piston aeroplane (land) class ratings and/or touring motor glider class ratings the applicant shall:

(i) within the three months preceding the expiry date of the rating, pass a proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 1 and 3 to JAR-FCL 1.240 or Appendix 1 and 2 to JAR-FCL 1.210 with an authorised examiner ; or

(ii) within the 12 months preceding the expiry of the rating complete 12 hours flight time in the [relevant] class including:

(A) 6 hours of pilot-in- command time;

(B) 12 take-offs and 12 landings; and

(C) a training flight of at least one hour’s duration with a FI(A) or CRI(A). This flight may be replaced by any other proficiency check or skill test.


So it is abundantly clear that this shall consist of a single flight. The logging of a [I]series of flights with less than 30 min between them, all of which depart and arrive at the same location as a single flight refers to entries in log books only and does not constitute the acceptance of such a series of flights for the purposes of re-validation. In any case, if you fly from A to B (30 min), have a cuppa and then take-off again within 30 min from B to fly back to A, that may not be logged as a single flight. Whereas take-off, fly a 20 min trip, land, change pax and repeat (<30 min between) would.

How would the CAA know? Because the FE who signs the 1119 needs to see the pilots logbook and checks that the FI has recorded a 'satisfactory' completion of the training flight. That will include a check of the block times; any doubt and the 1119 won't be signed.

I suggest that you make very sure that any flights you conduct for the purposes of the '1 hour training flight' are indeed of at least 1 hour's duration. Otherwise your pilots will not have completed their re-validation requirements in accordance with JAR-FCL 1.245 and would thus be flying with invalid licences. If they subsequently had an accident which wrote off the aeroplane, the insurance company might not pay up as the pilot did not have a valid aeroplane licence. So guess who will have to fork out for the damage.......

[Say again s l o w l y]

Fair enough Beagle. I'll have to mention this to a couple of FE's I know, since they told me it was acceptable. That'll teach me to trust people with greater experience!!:rolleyes:

[DFC]

BEagle,

You can't blame the situation on JAR or the JAA.

In other JAA countries, one can meet the requirements on a series of flights - I have done so. There is also no silly AIC listing various exercises.

A flight from A to B in the morning and then back in the PM showing the instructor my safe operation of the aircraft was all that was required.

Yes the rules say a flight - but what happened to common sense in the UK?

Far better IMHO to have demonstrated two 45 min international passenger carrying flights with some IFR than 60 minutes of just keeping within the PPL test standards for various manoeuvres!!

Is taxying out and holding at the hold for 50 minutes and then completing one circuit giving a total flight time of 1 hour acceptable? :)

Regards,

DFC

[BEagle]

In the UK there is no mandatory content for the 1 hr training flight; the ‘silly AIC’ gives guidance. But it’s actually pretty pointless guidance as to follow it to the letter would both make the training flight more extensive than a re-validation proficiency check and make it virtually impossible to complete in one hour!

‘Far better IMHO to have demonstrated two 45 min international passenger carrying flights with some IFR than 60 minutes of just keeping within the PPL test standards for various manoeuvres!!’ – absolute tosh, in my opinion. The idea of the SEP Class Rating training flight is to refresh basic flying skills; there are no ‘test limits’. Presumably your European FI would be happy for you just to fly him/her to lunch and back without having done anything more tasking than 2 take-offs, 2 landings and a bit of straight and level. That is stretching credibility rather.

If you taxy out to the holding point and just sat there for 50 min, I would argue that you’d hardly taxied ‘with the intention of taking off’. However, if having called ‘ready for departure’ the air traffickers held you for a while then yes, that would be considered as flight time.

There’s so much nonsense talked about the training flight; it’s just a chance to brush up skills with the helpful guidance of a FI. It’s not a test and the only requirement for the logbook entry is to confirm that the flight was satisfactory for the purpose of rating re-validation. But it must be a single flight of at least 1 hour!

[Ace Rimmer]

Hmm so if the training flight includes say startiing to learn to taildrag and perhaps a few aeros does that count. Or does it have to be a flight specifically aimed at refreshing various bits of airwork?

[BEagle]

Ace Rimmer - if it's for more than an hour with an instructor who's suitably qualified, then it certainly does count. The AIC contains recommendations only.

[Send Clowns]

How many people practice a forced landing between instructor checks? How many people practice a steep turn? Or a stall? (For that matter, how many instructors practice except when demonstrating ? That can be a long time in between if you're part-time, as I am) These safety-critical exercises are typically tested on a club check-out, and that is what I would ask of a student for the 1-hour flight if I am being asked to sign someone off as a pilot (I have not done any yet). This is probably more important than an "international passenger-carrying flight" which, if this is the choice, is likely to be a typical flight for that person anyway, and so will be well-practised.

This would take 1 hour, and consider how much less would be achieved in two 30-minute flights - on a trial lesson I'm only out of the zone for 10 minutes in such a short flight.

[lady in red]

The answers are all set out in the new edition of LASORS 2004 at Section F1.4 and I am sure that I read in the recently issued Standards document sent to examiners that we should not sign a licence where the training flight was less than one hour or consisted of two shorter flight albeit adding up to one hour total. Sorry chaps and chapesses