Rating then job?

[Harvester]

Hello to all.

Just a quick one really to guage the market at the moment. My basic position is finished training approx one and a half years ago and still looking for some sort of start. Ive kept current and had a few sniffs and a hell of alot of responses to hopeful letters but as yet no joy. Of course I know a lucky few who have managed to get straight into the RHS but this has to be about 5% of all of us out there. Working in ops at the moment and this is certainly a good way in but just not gonna happen where I am at present - could be waiting years. Therefore, I now find myself realising that the only way to get work is to make myself more marketable and keep moving forward.

I've considered instructing but just about ruled it out due to bad pay after a six grand ticket.

Ruled out hour building - just too costly for what you get.

Only one real option left - to pay for a type rating. Question is do any of you guys out there know of anyone who has paid for a type rating and got a job. Speaking to a pilot the other day who said everyone he knew who had paid for one had got work of some description. Alternatively - do you know people who have gone the full hog and not got work.

1 1/2 years ago I would have thought myself mad even thinking of getting into more debt but options are running out. Bearing in mind I'm focussing on the turbo prop market and not going crazy on a jet rating do you think this is a good idea or am I completely nuts!

Any comments welcome from experienced and less so - cheers - Harvester

[Bail out]

Hey harv..

I'm in the same position, I've had a few sniffs. I finished training Sept last year, at the mo flying with mates when I can afford it.

I have decided to get into more debt and buy a rating, but then you open a can of very expensive worms... what type? who with? etc and like it has already been mentioned keeping it current.

I know a unemployed ATR guy ( self sponsored ) 2 Boeing 737 guys also self sponsored, 1 employed, the other currently in negotiations with a reputable russian hospital for the sale of one healthy kidney to pay for his line training!!! think it through because it will be hard work.

Anyway best of luck with your decision, happy flying.

PM me and let me know what you decide

cheers

[no sponsor]

You're pulling my leg about the kidney donation.

Aren't you?

[Half_Cuban]

Harvester,

Have patience, I know how depressing it can be when it seems that there is no light at the end of the tunnel.

I was instructing for two years when I decided that I wasn't making enough contacts, and contacts is the name of the game in this business.

I left instructing and got a job in ops at a small airport, there I met the guy who phoned me last week and gave me the break I have been waiting nearly three years for.

The advice I would give is to talk to as many pilots as you can and to try to be introduced to the person who does the hiring with as many companies as possible.

[gear down props forward]

Harvester,

Do what I did -- and like me, double your flight time in one year for about US$4 grand in avgas:

BUY AN AIRPLANE!

Nothing fast, nothing extremely modernized. Why pay more to go faster and get there quicker if you need the flight time? Plus, you can get an instructor ticket in your own airplane for the fraction of what they're charging down at the local flight school, keep instrument currency, FLY to your next pilot interview, take the weekend off in the Bahamas, on and on...

Something reliable and cheap to fix! Like for instance--a US$16k Cessna 150! It cost me $15 per hour in fuel and oil, $520 for a year of insurance (less than my personal automobile's insurance) and I dont mind tinkering with the 150's tiny engine and systems in front of my mechanic if it needs work. Buy the parts when or if they ever break if you treat them right. My last annual inspection (C of A renewal) cost me $200 in parts--THAT'S IT. Signed off for free because my mechanic did not have to get his hands dirty, only me.

Got in the 150 at 600 total time, also had a part-time, weekend skydiver delivery gig. One year after purchase, I peaked 1200 hours with right now 540 in type C150 (hey it counts towards total time, at least you're not flying parker pens). Last month, I went on an interview at a night freight company that uses small multi-engine recips and just heard from the guy this evening--my class date is 18 February. Total time at interview -- 1320. I have had the airplane since August 2002.

Sell the airplane when you get a job and (hopefully) get all your initial investment in the airplane back...maybe more. Now you can afford to eat while working at that first night freight job! If you're saying that it is difficult to operate an airplane efficiently--so did I. "How can I ever afford to own an airplane." I did it and it was the best step I had ever done to accelerate my career progression and I was told left and right airplanes are money pits. Find a way to make it work for you - instruct in it, lease it back to a flight school, hire it out for sightseeing, tow banners, take aerial pictures, ...

Keep all eyes and ears open! I have to call up my "secondary" 135 job offer tomorrow and tastefully decline their offer, so there will be at least one company looking for a pilot to fill that empty seat in their next class. Hang out near airplane mechanics and airplane dealers. Airplane mechanics have customers that dont like to fly their own airplanes, so they pay the mechanic's hourly fee (upwards from $35 per hour) just to put a couple hours on the airplane a month! We're talking twin time here--get it when and wherever you can because every minute in every type counts! If the dealer has a bargain airplane for sale call that needs to be picked up, the pilot closest in terms of walking distance to the dealer has a good shot of hearing about it first.

Gear down props forward

[Wrong Sisters]

Harvester - Instructing maybe poorly paid but you probably learn more about pure flying when you teach. Your P1 time will build, you will be use to the pressure of having to give a near perfect demo having not touched the controls for 95% of the flight [good for the sim check] and you will be making contacts [ to get you that vital interview].

RTO is spot on - buying a type rating is a huge gamble. I have 5300 hours with 4750 on jets but I don't have a B737/A320 TR and even I am pondering the issue! There are of course calculated gambles and with thorough research and choice of the right TRTO it could pay off, but what if it doesn't? Wouldn't it be better to have that instructors rating? Having that FI ticket might just swing you the job in a couple of years time when the TR/experienced guys have dried up.

Having lots of hours is not the issue - it's what you've done to get those hours. Buy a plane - Buy a TR - Hours Build - FI?

My advice is go the FI route. Whatever decision you make best of luck.

[M.85]

dont do it:E or if you do get a 320 one..too many people qualified on the 73 ..
M.85

[Harvester]

Cheers for all te info on this one guys.

It seems there's no real solution and everyone should do what they must to suit individual needs. Guess if there was a way forward everyone would be doing it.

However - after a days thought, deliberation and talking to a few people reckon buying my ATR rating could be a slight recipe for disaster and may not be the sharpest tool in the box for doing this. Finacially could be a ruiner and just my luck i'd do the course and get offered a job on some other type plus probably have to pay for it these days.


The thought of instructing is definitely growing on me and know I'd enjoy it. Far smaller loan to get out as well. This would also build more experience and confidence and most importantly get me in the air. I'd have a nice perch on which to sit and watch the bad times pass away! I'll start calling around and try to find someone willing and able to train me up and give me a job.

Never really thought of it before (and believe me -i've done alot of thinking this last year and a half) due to initial outlay but the idea of buying my own speed machine sounds absolutely fantastic and cheers to gear down props forward for the inspiring thoughts. Only thing that worries me is the long term finaces - great to join the club but more tricky to keep te ****** going - any further advice or experiences on this one would be great - maybe get some sort of group together would be one way.

All in all just want to get flying now after getting to my wits end with this ops job. If all of you are like me you're just gagging to get flying whether it be a 73 or a 152. What I do know is that most of us on this site are now not wannabees but fully trained commercial pilots ready for work so keep the chin up - I know we'll get there in the end as long as we have a bit of perserverince (if thats the spelling) and keep moving forward! Just sit out the storm.

Cheers - Harvester.

[skysheriff]

its useless to get a rating if you dont have the flying hours that go with it.
if you believe it will get you a job you will be disappointed.

i hope the story about the kidney donation is a joke, who would sacrafice his/her health (can you get a class 1 with one kidney only ?) for a career in aviation. There are other things more important in life than airlines and line training

[Luke SkyToddler]

One would hope the kidney donation story was a joke ...

However I did, no joke, meet some wannabes down in London a few years ago who were earning a living by volunteering for medical experiments and clinical trials while they were studying the ATPLs.

A real gravy train they reckoned ... lots of free time to study all day, and all you have to do is take the pills/injections and sit in a room under observation :ok:

:uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh: :uhoh:

[topgundom]

Yeah,

That reminds me of when I was at university.

Got £20 quid a day at the sperm bank as I walked (yes that is spelt correctly) past the College hospital on the way to lectures.
Had to sit right up close to the blackboard coz my eyesight went to Sh*t and usually fell asleep during the first ten minutes.:zzz:

Paying for a type rating would that way would deserve a Victoria Cross...

and whatever medal they give you for being injured or maimed in action.

Oh.. and everyone knows that pilots selling kidneys is a ridiculous notion. The boys at 'The world's favourite airline' need to get hold of as many new ones as they can. :E

:ok:

[Harves]

Harvester

Inspiring speech....I'll give you a buz, take care mate.

Harves;)

[onehunga]

Harvester check out private flying for loads of information on buying a plane. If the cost works out to much for you then consider setting up a syndicate of other like minded ATPL hour builders that are in a similar position to you. The ways that you could structure it are numerous. And in fact it doesn't even have to be a syndicate as you could just rent it out to cover your overheads. Surely there must be loads of willing takers that will rent the plane at a reduced cost or even share in the initial capital outlay if you went down that path. Having a "pool" of willing renters will also mean you will be able to venture out on longer jaunts (eg: to the continent) and share the costs but still benefit from the experience. Good luck.

[IRISHWINGS]

I paid for an atr type rating last summer, and it paid off, got a job within 3 weeks, I was lucky, right place at the right time, others have'nt been this lucky, I think Airbus is the way to go if you decide to plunge, I see quite a few airbus jobs out there, A gamble I know, But in this industry right now thats what it takes, the jobs will not come to you !

[runway]

perhaps if i were to sell both kidneys i could offord a 737 and a320 type rating?!?

[JohnnyPharm]

I think you guys are taking the kidney thing a bit too seriously, the guy that wrote it was obviously being sarcastic.

Dunno if you saw that "Holiday Airline" show, same as Easyjet show but on Brittannia.

The steward's joke was:-

Q: "What do pilot's use for contraception?"

A: "Their personalities!!!"

Thought it was quite funny, but I thought that it was accountants that did that. Should know my bro's an accountant.

[4Screwaircrew]

I have been flying with one of 2 self funded 737 F.O.s that we have taken on, 0 commercial experience prior to joining the airline.

He is of the opinion that the pool at the organisation he trained with is empty, if he is correct then maybe now is the time, if he is not can you service the debt.

This will allways be a gamble and people are not going to give you a job in the current market just because you have the type rating, interview technique and personality will have a large bearing on the situation. To put t bluntly if the aircraft goes tech down route which of the people could I stand being stuck with?

Best of luck to all those still looking for that first break.

[runway]

It's great to hear that the self funded TR route has worked for a few people, but it is a huge amount of money to be adding to the already mounting costs of training so far, and i think that i will be keeping my kidneys.

runway (fatpl,mcc,2 kidneys,1 liver,etc)

[IceHouse]

I am interested in paying for an ATR type rating or similar myself although it seems rather expensive at 13k, are there any cheaper ways of gaining a JAA turboprop rating in say another country such as the USA or does no suitable training provider exsit?

[IRISHWINGS]

Think before you do an atr rating at present, Not much out there for fo's on the atr right now, also there is not many atr's operating in the english speaking world right now, If you speak french , you have a better chance, Only a hand full of atr's in the uk plus aer arann, More Dash 8 jobs about right now. Also to consider-That atr TRTO in the uk has dished out quite a few pilots last year, I hear not so many got jobs, you really have to be lucky.

[New F/O]

IRISHWINGS, sounds like I went to the same place as you did to do the rating, a great bunch of people.

I spoke to a lot of people, did my own research and took a gamble and I got a job even before my rating was stamped into my licence.
I also noticed that airlines are more willing to speak to you because they now know that you are able to get through a rating, which is an important financial assesment they have to make.

My view on this subject is that the UK aviation industry has changed a lot in the last 3 - 4 years and companies are cutting costs where ever they can so they let the pilot pay for the rating these days. Whether you do the rating now and get a job later or get a job and do the rating YOU still pay.
So to me it makes more sence to get a rating first and be at the front of the queue rather than waiting for an airline to give you an interview, which will be very challenging because there will no doubt be lots of applicants, and then do the rating which you have to pay for anyway.

I would say that there are a lot of B737 type rated pilots without jobs so don't go for that one is my advice, that's what made me decide to do the ATR rating and that there was a good chance of a job at that time.

What ever you decide, GOOD LUCK :ok:

New F/O

[FougaMagister]

What if the UK airline industry was now going the way of the Continent?

Accross the Channel, if you don't have a type rating, usually you won't get a look in, so most student pilots take that into account when financing their training; if you ask them how much it's gonna cost, most will answer 120,000 Euro or so.

Why? In most Continental countries, bonds are illegal, therefore the airlines don't wanna pay for a type rating if you can leave when you like... Therefore, only the majors (KLM, Air France, Alitalia, etc) recruit some low-hours guys without the TR. Other airlines will want a TR before they even start talking to you. Full stop.

My point? It looks like the UK is going down the same route, and I'm afraid that the TR as minimum requirement may well be here to stay. Remember, the airline scene has changed a lot as of late (not always for the better), and bean counters are now literally at the controls of most airlines. They won't surrender control without a fight...

Is it right to have to pay for your own TR? Of course not, but we might have to learn to live with that situation...:sad:

[first time flyer]

The Company I work for has recently taken a couple of self sponsored F/O's from the TRTO you are talking about. From what I saw they had nothing but praise for the place and had no problem during line training here.

[buttline]

Harvester,

I didn't see the CTC ATP Scheme on your list of options. It really should be checked out if you're 34 or under. For the same price as an FI rating, you could be in the RH seat of an A320/B737 in a few months.

Do a search on this forum for more info - it's a fantastic scheme if you're reasonably sharp and hard working.