View Full Version : Dr. Death is dead.
13th Jan 2004, 16:16
Dr. Harold Shipman, AKA Dr. Death is dead. He hanged himself.
For non-UK readers, this is the doctor that murdered over 200 of his patients -- mainly elderly.
Good riddance, slimeball.
13th Jan 2004, 16:18
Good news saves a lot of time and money, only wish he could hang himself 200 times....
Angels, slimeball is a kind of understatement?
13th Jan 2004, 16:25
We could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble and taxpayers coin if we had dangled the bastard in the first place.
Luvvies are already twittering "Why wasn't he on suicide watch"
13th Jan 2004, 16:26
No doubt the prison service will now be subjected to another round of investigations into how this sort of thing can happen. Quite frankly I think it will be a waste of time. At least now it is absolutely certain he will never re-offend.
13th Jan 2004, 16:30
Hope the bloke on duty does not get his wrist slapped. Good riddance.
13th Jan 2004, 16:34
I have mixed feelings over the news, mainly because of the families of those he killed. Many will never know the exact circumstances of how their loved ones died, and many feel that imprisonment was prefereable than death since it kep the hope of closure alive. There is of course little doubt in most minds that this self-centred :mad: who thought himself above the law or guilt would ever have given those families peace of mind, yet that is academic now.
I get the feeling that being in prison amongst people I consider to be infinitely more human than him, yet he that felt he was above most others on the planet, was absolute hell and constant torture for such a mutation of mankind. In his case, it was the worst possible punishment to be kept alive there and on par with the suffering that the families endure.
So part of me is somehow satisfied for his death, but another part mourns the fact that so many countless families will never find comfort in absolute knowledge. My only hope now is that he gets to meet all those he killed before he burns in hell.
Biggles Flies Undone
13th Jan 2004, 16:49
They should leave a length of rope in the cell of every piece of slime like him and every paedophile. Gives them a choice they never gave their victims but it would save the taxpayer millions.
13th Jan 2004, 16:54
He must have been the all time mother of all lone murderers to date with a estimated 215 victims, still, this new century is still young.
13th Jan 2004, 17:04
My condolences go out to the prison staff and their families who had to deal with the suicide of this creature. Not a pleasant experience regardless of who he was.
Also to the families of his victims.
To Shipman himself.....well done, you have saved us all a few quid.
13th Jan 2004, 17:07
BBCR2 says he hung himself with bed sheets - maybe the "luvvies" will want the sheets made from toilet paper :p
I beg to espouse a different viewpoint which is not nessesarily my own but even so.....
If someone wants 'out' then I reckon that's when living becomes a fate worse than death and the punishment is worth a few quid of taxpayers money to inflict it. Think about it. Someone said they wish Shipman coulda hung himself 200 times but surely making sure the scumbag suffers and is kept alive on this mortal coil against his will whilst enduring mental anguish is better than hanging him and having done with it? Or are we simply talking money here and not justice?
Just a thought but to me it quenches the desire of those who want to see a wholesome punishment like hanging and those luvvies who say keep 'em alive.
13th Jan 2004, 17:57
Quite agree. Surely if death brings him relief then let the bastard live. Stick him in with all the other hardened criminals and let them sort him out. His life would become a living hell from which he can't escape.
13th Jan 2004, 17:57
Just a thought but to me it quenches the desire of those who want to see a wholesome punishment like hanging and those luvvies who say keep 'em alive.
Err. run that past me again? :confused: :confused:
13th Jan 2004, 18:06
It's up to the relatives to pass judgement on whether his death is a good or bad thing, not us.
Some of them will welcome it - but most will be angry that they will never know why he did what he did. They will also be angry that he has taken the easy way out and has not had to serve his life sentence (the pro-capital punishment lobby here might want to reflect on whether hanging him in the first place would have been an act of mercy, not punishment). I agree however that it would have been a waste of time and money to have him on suicide watch. The prison staff tried to revive him, but they had to do that and would have been in trouble if they had not.
Even if he had lived, he would never have accepted what he had done, and I don't think the relatives would ever have known the truth. Although clearly some kind of serious mental condition was at the root of his actions.
He has administered his own justice which I can't complain about. But unlike some here, I think a greater punishment would have been for him to live with the guilt of his actions, not an easy and painless death.
13th Jan 2004, 19:01
There was a item on the news about him a few weeks ago, he was in trouble for working his ticket in some way, the item said he now had to wear prison uniform rather than his own clothes and had the TV removed from his cell, that doesn't sound like he was suffering much.
The justice system in this country is a joke, piss on Justice, lets have good honest vengence.
What's your beef now Bino's?
13th Jan 2004, 19:39
No beef. Just have no idea what you're talking about. Would you like to rephrase it?
Oh dear, you've yet to grasp the flippant nature beneath many of my posts haven't you? Must be sommat to do with spinning upside down in Aus 24/7. ;)
I was a) poking fun at those who shout "hang 'em" at every convicted killer b) poking fun at those who think convicted killers should live the life of Riley whilst inside and c) poking fun at the way judges often appear to dish out custodial sentances like they're dealing out sweeties. Okay, the last one I've just popped in there but no matter.
Two polar opposites which simply cry out for a jibe aimed at them. Was merely volenteering a solution to keep both parties happy whilst mocking the flippancy with which these topics are dealt with case in point flippant comment to highlight the fact.
Understand now ole chap?
13th Jan 2004, 20:01
No. But as long as I know there is somebody from the mother country willing to explain simple things to me in a patronising way I will remain your humble colonial servant.
Ole chap. :rolleyes:
That's rather flippant of you VFE old boy. In any case, in answer to one of your posts on page 1, so let the prisoner choose what they prefer (life in prison OR death) and then give them the opposite - so they suffer? Is that what you meant.
Well you know what? 'Probably' is the answer to that question Ozzy. I am probably one of the few who thinks some things are best left unfixed. If we go screwing with our justice system then we face the prospect of getting lumbered with one that is worse than it is and it's pretty flawed already. Maybe I don't trust our government to enforce any changes seeing as they manage to get most other decisions wrong, who knows.
All I know is that prison is little deterent to the kind of people commiting the truly horrendous crimes society deplores. Generally speaking, someone capable of commiting murder does not think of the consequences and any punishment is comparable to locking the stable door once the horse has bolted. Perhaps allowing the families of those affected have a selection of reasonable options would suffice seeing as punishment for murder is a retributional act and not a deterent like most other crimes.
But you see I don't think the majority of people are too concerned with viable options that involve keeping the prisoner alive. The general concensus one gets is that money is the main issue once a crime has been commited which is quite a sad reflection on modern society if you ask me. Just how appalling does a crime need to be before someone thinks of something else besides money these days?
13th Jan 2004, 20:38
The world is a better place without him.
13th Jan 2004, 21:00
My dear old mum lives on the corner of a quiet street, somewhere in the depths of Tameside, Manchester.
On the opposite corner to her house is the cornershop, which is owned and run by a middle aged couple. Open all hours, as they say. Nice people; they quite often get used by the various neighbours as key depositories, i.e. it's where I get the key to my mum's pace whenever I turn up from Switzerland, (which is not as often as it should be).
They've got their problems, of course, what with running a small cornershop, paying a mortgage, shackling two teenagers (nice enough) and of course the fact that they've spent the last five or six years in and out of courts, police stations and lawyers offices discussing Shipman's murder of the lady's mother.
This sounds like a 'Great Ric Capucho Coincidence', but the reality is that as Shipman offed well over 200 people, then nearly everyone in that area 'knows someone who knows someone' (who knows someone).
What would that particular couple 'wish' for?
Well, they were 'lucky' as their loss was a proven kill, as opposed to one of the 180 plus unproven but highly suspected kill. (actually so obvious that it wasn't worth going to court time and again to convict Shipman). They'd like to see the dozens of other victim's families find some sort of certainty and closure. Of course the copper in charge of the case has been a 100% superhero, as he's met everyone face to face, and told the 'highly suspected' point-blank that their parent was murdered. That's been enough for most, but a few remain who want any remaining doubts removed.
Shipman to be put beyond harm's way.
The poor old dear who Shipman offed a few years (might have actually been a few months) too early returned to them, so she could have her fair time on earth.
There are plenty in the victim's families who would have wanted a few hours alone in Shipman's cell. There are plenty more that would have desired the authorities (as a proxy) to give Shipman that good hiding. Some may even have desired for Shipman to be executed, either by the law, or outside of it. It seems that the majority of the victim's families didn't want anything more than Shipman to be stopped, and their parents back safe and sound.
For the majority, that's been accomplished.
13th Jan 2004, 23:07
The arrogant, murderous old b:mad:d should have been hung using a bungee rope ! Despite being a medical man, I'm sure even he would have been unable to minimise the pain of garrotting himself with his bedsheets so hopefully he had some time to reflect on whether he had his case straight for St Peter !
His demise was a bit of a cheat on the families he caused so much pain and grief but they may be able to get some closure now because I suspect the old toerag was never going to admit to anything or say why he did commit those terrible attacks on our old folk anyway. His recent behaviour and disobedience in prison just confirmed his lack of remorse and monstrous ego so p:mad: ss on him !
13th Jan 2004, 23:41
Well VFE, old bean, I don't know all and ride high morals like you, I certainly don't have the same right to speak as the families of the victims and normally I'm no fan of the death penalty, but in cases like Dr.Death, Huntley the only thing comes to my mind is get them out of this world soon. Vermin have to be exterminated, period.
Plea bargain cases like the one of Ridgeway in Seatle leave a very bitter taste :suspect:
If it would come to life sentence for this kinda people, the only place they would suffer are in prisons of Turkey, Thailand or the like, not in most Western countries.
tip tip tally ho etc...
Well you know what KAOS?
I was attempting to highlight a view in an ironic way which some appear to have missed. Never mind. Riding high morals is the way one appears when swimming against the tide on these bulletin boards - either that or you just appear a nutter. My thoughts do not attempt to assume the moral high ground - merely make others reflect on their own opinions. I have often stated that my posts on these heavier topics attempt to cajoule others opinions so that I may learn. It is really the only way on the internet as most sit casually by chuckling at the course of events.
14th Jan 2004, 04:05
Anyone fancy emailing this thread to Barlinnie, f.a.o. Neil Robertson aka "The Guvnor"? :E :suspect:
14th Jan 2004, 22:33
Seems like a very unusual case.
As I recall he was aquitted first time around and only in two of the cases did there appear to be any possible motive. I'm not sure I buy the "He was obviously a very evil / unbalanced person" as anyone would be assumed to be unhinged were they convicted of 200 murders.
I've heard reverse Munchausen syndrome mentioned as a possible motive for the rest, though surely any GP would have more than enough death to deal with without needing to cause more himself to satisfy any odd perversions.
Maybe one has too much faith in the human condition but this case dosn't fit any abnormal psychology that I'm aware of.
15th Jan 2004, 00:23
Chaffer, her indoors (whose training was as a pshrink) assures me that the syndrome would be well recognised - (a) A control freak and (b) An addictive personality. Add to that extreme arrogance and contempt for many other people and you have him.
Or was that her notes on me...? :confused:
16th Jan 2004, 08:48
Apparently he topped himself because he lost his patients.
16th Jan 2004, 18:33
patience would have done the trick !
16th Jan 2004, 19:45
Having an addictive personality and being a control freak does not equal serial killer though, infact it describes a fair proportion of the population.
Havn't seen any analysis on the subject in the papers as yet, other than the totally logical reasoning that he killed 200 peeps therefore he is a nutter. Why did he kill them? Well, because he's a nutter.
16th Jan 2004, 19:48
From the Daily Telegraph
NHS to pay Primrose £100,000 plus pension
By Chris Boffey
Primrose Shipman, the widow of Britain's most prolific mass murderer, is to receive an immediate pension of £18,000 a year and a lump sum of more than £100,000 after her husband's suicide.
Shipman's death confounded a ruling in July 2002 by Alan Milburn, who was then Health Secretary, that the jailed doctor's NHS pension should be scrapped when Shipman reached the pensionable age of 60.
Mr Milburn made his decision after a jury found Shipman guilty of murdering 15 of his patients in Hyde, Greater Manchester. It is now believed that he killed nearly 250 men and women over two decades.
Under NHS pension rules governing doctors committing serious crimes, Mr Milburn had the right to strip Shipman of his entitlement but it is not known whether the implications of premature death or suicide were considered when the decision was made.
Although legally binding, the pension for Mrs Shipman will enrage many of the victims' families who were each given a one-off lump sum compensation payment of £10,000.
Last night a spokesman for the Department of Health confirmed that Mrs Shipman would get her husband's pension, saying: "Mrs Shipman will be entitled to a lump sum and continuing widow's pension from the NHS pension scheme.
"Under National Health Service scheme regulations, ministers directed that 100 per cent of Shipman's personal benefits from the NHS pension scheme should be forfeited.
"However, Mrs Shipman is entitled to the relevant survivor benefits on his death."
During the decades that Shipman worked as a local doctor, in Hyde and Todmorden, Yorks, he would have paid six per cent of his salary into his NHS pension fund and there was an employer's contribution of seven per cent.
Police investigating why Shipman hanged himself in Wakefield Prison on Tuesday are expected to ask his widow about her financial position and if it could have been the reason for his suicide.
Shipman, who was devoted to Primrose, was aware that she was living on benefits and could not afford to modernise her small cottage alongside the busy A1 near Wetherby in west Yorkshire.
She sold their house in Mottram, near Hyde, for £170,000 after Shipman's conviction but it is understood that the family faced crippling legal fees.
We know that Shipman displayed indifference to the suffering he'd caused many families and contempt for the prosecution which is indicative of sociopathy - having little regard for the feeling and welfare of others. But according to some psychological investigators, Shipman actually had a secret self that was awash in monumental self-pity. He had watched his mother die when he was seventeen which he may have interpreted as rejection and abandonment. He wanted the jury to believe that he had an impulse control problem but in truth he had been highly organized in the way he altered medical records and adopted the pretense of making proper arrangements. He'd even typed up a will for his last victim and forged her signature. This might have been perceived as a deep inner hypersensitivity or may have been no more than a swollen ego in danger of imploding at the smallest impact.
It appears Shipman could not handle potential rejection from women the age his mother would have been had she lived so his older female patients brought out his inner conflicts. This means that what may have become suicidal despair in others turned into a homicidal rage in Shipman. Basically, he killed patients to keep from killing himself and the fact he hung himself when no longer able to do this says plently about this theory.
The question can be asked whether it's the position of power that shaped him into a killer or whether he was a sociopath who managed to become a doctor. As far as I know nobody has managed to clear that one up.
For further reading on the psychology of many serial killers I can recommend this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0863696155/ref%3Dnosim/authordatabase/026-7938911-0590817) book on the subject. It covers many cases including Fred & Rose West.