Buccaneer Low level [Archive]

Roghead

19th Dec 2003, 00:25

Duncan McC's correct(of course)-she would go very fast and 600kts was attainable but didn't turn too well.Collected the penultimate aircraft from H on S for 208 Sqn and the Waste of Space clean fit was" very impressive" said Ramjet my driver for the day.I didn't clock the actual max IAS on the long run back to Honington-busy completing the post manufacturers flight test and max speed required (from memory) was 540kts.By the time the RAF gingerbeers had "re-roled" the beast it never performed as well. Flew in the Warton tanker many years later and she went very fast,clean.

:ooh: :ooh: :ooh: Those were the days!

NURSE

19th Dec 2003, 01:11

is the story of Bucc's flying under power lines in germany an urban myth?

SPIT

19th Dec 2003, 01:20

Hi
Re- the Bucc going Low Level, There was some super film some years ago showing a Bucc on Red Flag, and the only way the Yanks could see him was by going outside from their radar shack and following the DUST TRAIL he was kicking up whilst he was nearing them, They don't get much lower than that and Not Land or Crash Land with wheels Up ????
:ok: :ok: :ouch:

SteadyNote

19th Dec 2003, 01:22

There is a lot of good gen in Graham Pitchfork's book, 'The Buccaneers', published last year - apart from a photo of a very young SN - hmmm.

BEagle

19th Dec 2003, 03:12

630KIAS rings a bell from my long distant past?

role is great

19th Dec 2003, 03:52

Back in the early 80s,1981 i think, as a very young liney doing his stuff out on the line, a very loud boom reverabated around Lossiemouth and the surrounding area. This was closely followed by a clean wing Buccaneer, on a post minor airtest,doing a very low and fast beat up,which must have started many miles out in the Moray Firth
Many years later ,much older and bolder liney doing his stuff on F3, in Q shed golf dispersal Akro. Glances up to see the whole end of the shed framing an equally low and fast Bucc , Which as it skims the roof causes 30 years worth of paint rust and bird poo to part company with the rafters. :ok: doesnt seem to happen much now in these noise sensitive times

smartman

19th Dec 2003, 04:57

Beagle

From which long and distant past would that be?

Bill O'Average

19th Dec 2003, 05:17

Remember being on Tain in the mid 80's clearing some ordanance. For some reason I was stood on top of the EOD van when a Bucc who thankfully had finished dropping live decided to do a final run. Bizarre seeing the TOP of the wing when he was S+L!!! I was like a rabbit caught in the headlights!

Neil Porter

19th Dec 2003, 06:34

Many a time at Abingdon, Buccs were out on air test after maintenance & they came back f***ing low and fast to announce their arrival, really impressive..

reynoldsno1

19th Dec 2003, 07:28

Many moons ago was weekend loafing at Gibraltar with a Nimrod (Mk.1, the one that sort of worked...), plus a couple of Buccs (12 or 208). The Air Cdr decided he wanted a bit of aerial activity since Princess someone or other (one of the nice ones) was visiting. We got airborne for 4 hrs "training" (not worth putting your growbag on for anything less) and saline solution watching.
Came back and asked to hold at Bravo with our Bucc frinds, who had also gone "training" for something much less than 4 hrs. No.1 passed sometime doing barrel rolls round us.
No.1 then started his approach from the East, dumped his flaps, gear and hydraulics and called for the CHAG (errr, what....!!!). Apparently it was quite spectacular as he hauled "x" tons of anchor chain down the runway and the Met Office reported 20m vis in rust haze ...
Meanwhile, back at the ranch No.2 diverted to Tangiers, and we reported 20 min. endurance left to divert (ATC didn't believe we would actually run out of motion lotion). We filled up in Faro (not allowed to Tangier) and arrived back just in time to miss the Princess's cocktail party - she apparently had said that we shoudn't have gone to so much trouble just for her...
Saw Air Cdr on Monday morning, and he asked if we wouldn't mind "nipping' over to Tangiers on the way home to settle No.2's fuel bill with our carnet. "Errr, well there was a reason why we didn't go there on Saturday, sir.... perhaps the Adj can nip over on the ferry..."

NURSE

19th Dec 2003, 08:06

i seem to remember in the dim and distant past the BBC doing a series 'fighter pilot' the one who completed fast jets went to buccaneers in germany as far as i remember.

Oggin Aviator

19th Dec 2003, 08:54

Any piccies anyone of the Bucc LL ???

Nurse, the guys name - fictional?:confused: was John McCrea if memory serves.

Oggin

Wee Weasley Welshman

19th Dec 2003, 09:50

My favourite aircraft the Buc - got to taxi in one once. Amazed by the switches everywhere layout - very 50's. Great name, good lookes (to my twisted mind) and pretty competent too for its age. All the ingredients for a future classic.

Jeez, was that when we last had a proper airforce? Jag, Bucc, Phantom, Lightning, Tornado, Harrier and just retiring Vulcan... Hell, I am 29 and already its seems like a golden age. It'll be Tornado and Harrier only in 2 years time..!

Shame.

WWW

BEagle

19th Dec 2003, 15:31

I vaguely remember being told that the max speed of the Buccaneer S2C and D was 630KIAS in RN service. That was when I was attempting to get through the totally dreadful organisation known as 237 OCU in 1976/7. Destructive criticism, thinly disguised hatred of students, this bunch of prima donnas managed to fly 100% of their allocated hours but only graduated 33% of their students....

I recall being subjected to a private aeros display by a pilot instructor including an attempted push up from the 45 deg point of a horizontal eight which nearly ended up as an inverted spin at low level...lots of buffet, no IAS and the negative G increasing. The RAF back seat staff crew members - I decline to refer to them as 'instructors' were without doubt the most unpleasant group of individuals it has ever been my misfortune to be associated with. However, most of the RN guys were much better - apart from a couple of utter poseurs....

No good memories of Bucc days; however, I will say that the professionalism of the 'firm but fair' hand of Bruce C*****e did teach us a lot.

smartman

19th Dec 2003, 17:40

Oh dear - where did that big chip come from?

reynoldsno1:

Princess Alexandra, 19 Jun 79

Jackonicko

19th Dec 2003, 18:04

A fading Squadron Prints print of a 208 Squadron Bucc reminds me that I flew in one once. Great fun, fascinating role but just too frustrating. No chance for an over-enthusiastic, under-skilled journo/PPL to get his hands on one and see how it handled.

BEagle

19th Dec 2003, 18:30

smartman - you weren't OC 12 then, were you?

I did like Bruce's comment "When you get used to the strength of this thing at low level, you start looking for things to ram!"

No chip - simply a comment on a thoroughly dreadful organisation. But I did hear that a lot of shaking up went on there a couple of years later....

maxburner

19th Dec 2003, 18:41

ROGHEAD

Didn't know you were still alive. Taps at 1200 on Tuesday for the annual get together.

Regards,

PTR 175

19th Dec 2003, 18:42

BEagle, I know what you mean about the OCU, it was my intro to the RAF.

Bruce gave us groundcrew a hard time as well. On the long lead during a Fam1 you would often hear, "unplug, as what I am about to say is unsuitable for delicate ears" or words to that effect.

He did give me my first fast jet trip though, in one of our Hunters, now at Kemble I believe, the Hunter, not Bruce.

TD&H

19th Dec 2003, 18:52

Would love to see the film again of the Buccs at Red Flag.

Is it available?

NURSE

19th Dec 2003, 19:06

a good link for the Buccaneer is
http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/buccaneer/index.html

Did anyone serve on the Bucc dets that covered British Forces in Lebanon?

smartman

19th Dec 2003, 19:07

Beagle

Nope - wrong Smart!!

BEagle

19th Dec 2003, 19:25

Thanks for clearing that up, chum!

Not the most popular boss of the Basil Brush outfit, was he?

Re. the Buccs at low level on Flag, you should have seen some of the 'private' Telford camera film from the strike sight which were shown behind locked doors. Ever seen the look on a prairie dog's face when it looks up at 540 knots of Bucc at ultra low level? I saw it on the film!!

smartman

19th Dec 2003, 19:57

An even better look was on the face of some of the guys in the backseats

Roghead

19th Dec 2003, 20:15

BEagle, couldn't agree with you more. 237 OCU at that time was the pits. Fortunately didn't put me off flying and the Sqns proved to be a welcome relief and provided outstanding fun.
Sad thing was that too many of the OCU Staff believed they had a fighter and not the outstanding bomber that it was.

:ok: :ok: :ok: Keep smiling.

Maxburner check your personal mail.

Pontius Navigator

20th Dec 2003, 02:57

can't remember the name but the F4 driver said the bucc was great at fighter evasion. 500+ on the deck, F4 creaming in behind, wing down 60 deg bank.

Quick as a flash Biggles would role his F4 and pull like a bastard. After about 20 deg look up for the shot. No Bucc.

Bastard still flying 500+ S&L but with 60 AOB. Got 'em every time.

Roghead

20th Dec 2003, 03:32

PN absolutely right.We were great at evading which perhaps meant we could reach and hit our target.However we couldn't shoot anyone down.
Mind you we could get him in our 6, open the brakes and fill his intakes with the chaff taped within.
Notwithstanding that, fighter afill (or bomber afill if you were a real fighter) was great training for both camps and not without its fun.

tony draper

20th Dec 2003, 05:24

I remember reading in Robert Prest's book on the F4 that he was exeeding peeved to being bounced by a couple of Bucks.

Shackman

20th Dec 2003, 05:53

Sadly never got to fly the Bucc, but had a good look in the cockpit of one once - just South of LFA 9. However, I was at 100ft in a Gazelle coming round the side of a hill, when said beast came round the other way - underneath us! :uhoh:

PS For NURSE - I wasn't on the "Did anyone serve on the Bucc dets that covered British Forces in Lebanon?" - but we did take the press over on a Chinook so they could then film, photo and report on 'The First RAF Aircraft over Beirut'. Quite where they thought we came from I never did learn. But at least we bought some 'Beirut Rock' back for the detachment later (I think it came from a shell hole next to the University HLS).

smartman

20th Dec 2003, 06:37

There are loads of ex-Bucc chappies out there with gem-stories to tell. Each year there is an horrendous get-together of those aircrew who can be bothered to pitch-up, near the Tower of London, and imbibe. I forget the last one - even though it was only a coupla weeks ago! And the well-recalled Bruce was amongst them - amazingly he is PC non-literate (or so he claims), and is therefore unable to join our banter. I don't believe him ---

Oh - and roghead, why didn't you come?? Or did I miss you in my haze?

John Eacott

20th Dec 2003, 09:11

There are a few photos of RN Buccaneers from Ark & Eagle on my website, here (http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/) . Click on "Gallery", there's one for the Bucc + one for the Phantom ;)

maxburner

20th Dec 2003, 18:41

ROGHEAD

See your mail. MB

FJJP

21st Dec 2003, 04:20

I did the Red Flag (Flatiron) when the bucc film of the wingtip duststorm was taken. Also the film of the Bucc flying over the caravan, where the last frame was the entire starboard intake filling the screen. They lost the vhf whip aerial from the caravan. 'Stipstream' they said; scratches on the leading edge said another...

Also, one enterprising nav used to unstrap en-route to the ex area and kneel on his bang seat - then he could be the eyes looking to the rear for the opposition. His view was that his chances of survival at LL were virtually zero, therefore it didn't really matter... Don't think his boss was overly impressed when it came to light.

LOMCEVAK

22nd Dec 2003, 03:21

Nurse,

Lebanon 1983/4. Still got the 'T' shirt - "Real men fly through Beirut not over it"! Probably the most exciting couple of minutes flying I have ever done (No 2 of the second pair around the city if anyone has the video). We set the Pave Spike to a fixed 2 degree depression and filmed the whole trip around the city. Got in the mire from the USN for flying under the bows of one of their boats on the way back to Akrotiri, and then again for being too low on the break into the circuit! Great fun!

As for speeds, I can get accurate numbers when I get back to work in the New Year, but from memory the clean aircraft limit was 580 KIAS/0.95M but with most stores, such as underwing tanks, was 560 KIAS/0.86M. However, I have seen 605 KIAS (even with underwing tanks on) and 0.96M in winter at Goose Bay (in my pre-tp days, of course!). At these speeds it did put monstrous loads on the ailerons and a few rivets often disappeared. Also, above about 550 KIAS directional stability was poor and the slip ball was firmly pegged on the stops. I never flew with 4 Sea Eagles, but with 4 Paveway LGBs on the wings you could comfortably maintain 550 KIAS in close formation and then through a 4g toss manoeuvre.

As for 237 OCU, by 1979 it was much better and I had a ball. There were some great guys there.

Overall, the Bucc was the best aeroplane that I have ever flown for high speed at low level, although you did leave a wake below about 40 feet! However, it also had the worst flying qualities of anything that I have experienced in the landing pattern. The F4 was considerably easier.

ROGHEAD, glad to see that you have popped up again. Will send you a PM.

Thanks for starting this thread - happy memories.

spekesoftly

22nd Dec 2003, 07:18

However, it also had the worst flying qualities of anything that I have experienced in the landing pattern. Makes you wonder how the guys that operated the Bucc from the heaving deck of a carrier managed!

I also recall reading a fascinating post some time ago (by BEagle I think) that described in some considerable detail all the various knobs and taps that had to be constantly adjusted to configure a Buccaneer for landing; mind-boggling.

reynoldsno1

22nd Dec 2003, 08:13

Princess Alexandra, 19 Jun 79
Aaaah, that was the one, thank you smartman, can't find me logbook ... we were told we could attend the cocktail party in our growbags, but looking at southern portugese concrete was much more fun....:zzz:
So, which one were you in?

Krystal n chips

22nd Dec 2003, 17:21

In '75, two of XV''s rivet pullers had a brief, but passionate, meeting out of Karup. The lead crew carried out a text book ejection--I believe--and the other recovered to Karup. The farce begins. The recovered Bucc.is deemed to be Cat 5. ( please note this was by a to$$ah who drove non stop to Karup from Bruggen--to save the Air Force money and not claim any rates!--and who also said he could exist on the LOA of Kr9 per day :mad: ) A review decided the a/c was only Cat 3. Plan A. Fly 5 Eng + tools to Karup. Plan B Compress the above into a BL 1800---and drive up!. So, night stop in Hamburg, ---obviously and arrive at Karup. The LH L/E of the Bucc was like a piece of corrugated paper---BUT--when we folded the wing---it lifted perfectly and was removed with no complications and NO secondary structural damage. Replace wing and Bingo. Enter the recovery of the one in the sea phase----plus one Grimsby trawler, two MoD divers, and one permanently pi$$ed MoD person ( in his Jag !) who was paranoid about the funny bits in the rear being on public display when the wreckage was landed. This was quite amusing as, when we did land the bits, it was just like Spy vs Spy--a lot of people taking piccies--of people taking piccies etc.at a small fishing port. Speys make excellent crab pots btw:ok: Denmark is a very hospitable Country and we had a very pleasant 5 week sabbitical---thank you XV---which was only spoilt by some shiny a$$e at Bruggen noting that the 1800 fuel comsumtion "seemed excessive"--BL 1800 speedo cables were prone to disonnection over a 4.5 day cycle OK !. One other memorable person was the Station M.O. ---dressed in uniform shirt----and wearing maroon flared cords----would have gone down a bomb at Waddo to judge from previous posts:ok: Oh, and we got the LOA raised to Kr 28 per day as well !!
Also brought a Gnat back, same year, from the Tiger meet at Leck. Said Gnat driver, either through sexual frustration and / or confusion about the AAR capability of the Gnat, attempted to mate with an F-104--from behind. The pointy bit on the Gnat was well and truly crinkled--which must have made the landing interesting I suppose--but did provide us with another 10 day sabbatical whilst we put it on a low loader. In both cases however, the structural integrity of the Airframe reflected the skills of the designers and manufacturers given that there was no further damage. Either of these jog any memories at all ?

BEagle

22nd Dec 2003, 17:50

Yes - I saw the Gnat at Valley and I'm astonished that it stayed in the air. You could se a lot of daylight through the floor and most of the nose had gone although a few avionic boxes were dangling on their cables.....

Then there was the guy who porked up a night toss attack at Wainfleet, but gritted his teeth, rolled wings level and pulled like a bug.ger. Big strong chap, but so was the Bucc. The AR probe bent under the strain, both inboard flaps fell off - he knew about the former but not the latter, so his intended 45-10-10 landing became an inadvertant 0-10-10 landing which made control even more difficult. I think that he pulled over 10g - some reports suggested 14g. But a couple of new flaps, a new probe a thorough check and it flew again, I gather!

smartman

22nd Dec 2003, 17:58

reynoldsno1 old chap - you're really exercising my sagging brain! I haven't had the pleasure of visiting Tangiers so I guess I must've been the chain-dragger, sorry! - nobody let on to HRH that it really wasn't an event laid on for her benefit. My jolly Irish nav would probably remember more if he's watching -------------

CMOTS

22nd Dec 2003, 18:43

Smartman, always watching and enjoying "the crack"! Trust you are well?

smartman

22nd Dec 2003, 20:42

CMOTS

Good to see you're still around mate! Why not at Blitz this time?

Can't think who all these supposedly nasty chappies were on 237, can you? In comparison with the guys on 229OCU at Chivenor in the early days, they were all choirboys. Those who survived either experience are, I suspect, none the worse - there are those that can and those that can't eh?

And never mind HRH - what about the Vangelis continuity girl and all those other Rock maidens ------ aah; pity about my old walnut!

Merry Crimble & Bananas, Bananas

NURSE

23rd Dec 2003, 02:33

It will always be my favorite aircraft. I think it was airlife brought out a paperback on the bucc and had a section on op pulsator (lebanon) showing the track of the flights over Beruit. I always think it was sad that the Buccaneer was never developed further. The pics of them operating of Ark and Eagle are excellent btw. I see the RAF download library has a bucc screen saver on it.

Smoketoomuch

23rd Dec 2003, 03:14

Hansard (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm199091/cmhansrd/1991-04-30/Orals-1.html)

".....will the Minister turn his attention to Buccaneer jets? A potentially catastrophic incident took place off the coast of my constituency yesterday, when a Buccaneer jet took evasive action and missed a ferry by only 40 ft. We accept that pilots must train, but does the right hon. Gentleman agree that it is wrong for them to do so along busy ferry lanes?"

Did they ever use bus lanes too? :)

John Eacott

23rd Dec 2003, 05:26

Beag's tale of the strength of the Bucc reminded me of the Martel trials by the Boscombe crew, using Ark (IIRC). The weather was fairly average, but the Crab driver had no fear, and continued past the limits of mere mortal. With a movement of the round down of about 50-60 ft, the final arrival was...interesting.

If you remove the tyres from the mains, remove all oils & seals from the oleos, the undercarriage doors have about 1" clearance from the deck.

If you land a Bucc with Martels in extreme conditions on a carrier, it is possible to scrape about 1" off the bottom of the undercarriage doors as the gear compresses and flexes.

Made for good viewing from goofers ;) :ok:

RFCC

24th Dec 2003, 03:59

BEagle's 10g Bucc stirred a few memories. I did the rectification on that aircraft. There were holes all over it where the departing flaps and pen nibs, had hit the rear fuselage. The U/W tanks and CBLS had also disappeared. The pitot tube had also put a fair size hole in the aileron.

Funnily enough, after we did the symmetry checks and declared it to be spot-on, HSA/BAe dug out the history and it turned out that the symmetry had always been quite a way out.

I believe that the Navy had declared it a rogue because it always turned to one side when trimmed for carrier take-offs (or so the civvy rep said). Perhaps John Eacott or his colleagues can confirm (XT 271?).

Simtech

24th Dec 2003, 07:09

I was privileged to work with the Bucc community when I worked as a PDS engineer on the Paveway 2 LGB. We did some special work for them prior to one of the Red Flag detachments - can't recall the year but one of the Banana Bombers was credited with killing a F15. The defenders were so hacked off with the Buccs hitting every target they were assigned that one of them decided to mix it at (very) low level. Big mistake - the Bucc took him out with a (simulated) 1000-pound retarded bomb. The umpires declared that the F15 had been caught by the blast and had been destroyed. Buccs 1, Eagles 0.

I got a very good last look at a Bucaneer during its last public display at Cranfield. The two aircraft concerned used the village where I live as the IP for the display. Superb sight (and sound).

nimrodnosewheel

24th Dec 2003, 07:24

Saddest sight I ever saw, decommissioned Bucc hulks in an Elgin scrap yard, proud and mighty former war beasts now only scrap aluminium & perspex. Most heartening sight, every day passing the "gate guard" preserved kite at the Buccaneer Filling Station, Elgin. Great for photo oportunities, always see tourists there in the summer and well done to the owners for putting their money where their mouth is (more than can be said for their Airships).:D

ShyTorque

24th Dec 2003, 22:36

I was a holding officer (APO) at Honington in 1977, just prior to my own jet course at Linton. Worked on the 237 OCU ops desk. Got daily bollockings from a certain Wg Cdr Parr, mainly caused by me not having a clue what he was talking about on the squawk box because no-one bothered to train me before leaving me to work 12 hour shifts. I sadly remember Steve Noble, a good mate there, later killed in a Red Arrows Gnat crash during a display practice with a passenger whose knee caught the flap lever and retracted them.

Anyone remember the 237 OCU Bucc that finished up in a Welsh lake? Pulled 13G plus to avoid a Hunter in the LFA and the tail came off.

Or the one that came back from the range with mud splashes on it from its own 28lb practice bomb? Trainee pilot got target fixation. I remember seeing the white faces of the pilot and staff Nav as they went to watch the video and debrief.....

And the later one (1990s) that was landed with a total hydraulics failure? No landing gear, flaps, brakes or airbrakes. An "interesting" landing, 230 kts touchdown, in manual and with gear up, made an awful lot of sparks.... and two large fireballs from the fuel in the drop tanks that they thought had been used / jettisoned. Tanks were left on to prevent the aircraft digging a wing in and rolling over on the runway. Total hydraulics failure also prevented fuel jettison, no-one knew that until then! As the tanks touched the tarmac they were holed and the sparks ignited the escaping fuel, first one side then the other. The second fireball engulfed the aircraft but as it continued down the runway it emerged again relatively unscathed. It was all videoed, the last thing it showed was the canopy opening and two crew jumping out and running like hell! The firetrucks sirens were far away in the distance, as they were chasing the aircraft from the downwind threshold.

The pilot (another mate of mine, later became Wg Cdr RAFAT) said afterwards they should have banged out, that particular Bucc never flew again. They gave him a Green Endorsement and scrapped the aircraft.

normally left blank

24th Dec 2003, 23:01

Stirring memories? You bet. I was training at Karup ATC the day it happened. They were using the Romoe range EK R38 just north of the German border, when they collided. Both made it back to Karup. One landed - fast-ish - as I remember, shedding a few bits on the runway. The other overflew the station (with a mate), then headed for the west coast, as they could barely keep straight and level in landing configuration. The ejection went well and the aircraft and crew landed in the shallow fjord outside Stauning, EKVJ. Maybe one of them in the North Sea? One of 729 sqn's young recce pilots got so exited about actually getting the ejection on camera, that he nearly ran his RF-35 Draken out of fuel. (And he didn't even get the shot!)

More coming up in a few days.

(And incredibly I'm still here!)

Off to Christmas. Here comes the "Night Watch".

Happy Holidays.

Normally left blank

doubledolphins

25th Dec 2003, 00:34

"Where are the Buccaneers?"

"On the sides of your Buccinead!"

Remember the Beirute film on the News that evening. Looked like a lot of fun. I was truly impressed. The Buck might have been fast but an old associate of mine tells the tail of recovering his and seeing the bullet holes left by the "quaint" Mustangs that he had passed over Borneo!

normally left blank

27th Dec 2003, 06:31

XV 351 delivered RN 3/10/67 - crashed into the Wash 11/11/74 with 809 Sqn. In between with 12 (?) Sqn RAF, when it made an impression on Karup Airstation, Denmark.

On 12'th of May 1971 it was taking off for Bodø, Norway, when just before lift off the right main gear tire blew. With the rim on fire the Buccanneer continued past the end of the 10.000 foot runway, taking the first barrier, which was down, with the hook. Then the raised barrier in the overrun. Messing both up. The navigator ejected while the pilot stayed. Both were safe. The fire went out in the sandy ground. Until recently the scars in the overrun from the broken rim were still visible.

Then a night of recovery helped by RN Sea Vixen? ground crew, that happened to be there. (So no high spending RAF technicians needed!) (At first). XV 351 ended up with a wooden wheel to get it away from the runway!

I have many happy memories of squadron exchanges with many RAF types (pun intended). ;)

normally left blank

27th Dec 2003, 14:05

Two b&w pictures of XV 351 at

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&postid=236876#post236876

nimrodnosewheel

27th Dec 2003, 17:09

Doubledolphins, I'm curious. Am I just being thick or is there something my junior years and woeful lack of historical knowledge has missed? Why were "quaint" Mustangs shooting at Buccaneers. Had N Korea / China purchased a job lot after WWII or were the yanks merely continuing a blue on blue tradition started in said conflict and continued in every one since. An old soldier friend who served in WWII once told me "When the Germans flew over, we ducked. When the British flew over, the Germans ducked. But when the Yanks flew over EVERYONE ducked!"

Merry Xmas and Seasons Greetings for '04 to one and all.

ps Did anyone see the "Grumpy Old Men at Christmas?" Classic, I taped it and made the familt watch it with me yesterday evening, haven't had such a laugh in a long time.

Archimedes

28th Dec 2003, 04:09

NimNW,

Use of 'Borneo' suggests Indonesian Air Force. They had Mustangs at the time of the Confrontation. There are some interesting tales (Jackonicko knows more on this) that one of these Mustangs took part in events that undermine the 'the RAF has only shot down RAF aircraft' line somewhat...

As an aside one of the BoBMF Spitfires (I think it joined the Flight later, anyway) was pressed into service to train Lightning mates in the arts of shooting down prop-driven fighters so that the Indonesian Mustangs could be engaged if needs must.

nimrodnosewheel

28th Dec 2003, 18:45

Morning Gents. I dredged this one up from hungover memory banks this morning. They weren't too clear so Google'd a couple of helpful sites for the facts. However, am I right in saying this is the only time British forces have used Napalm in anger? AND, did we really only get 75% of hits on target?!

"On 18 March, 1967 the 'Torrey Canyon' struck Pollard's Rock in the Seven Stones reef between the Scilly Isles and Land's End, England. She was the first of the big supertankers, carrying a cargo of 120,000 tons of oil.

On Tuesday 28th March 1967 the Fleet Air Arm sent Buccaneers from Lossiemouth to drop forty-two 1,000-pound bombs on the wreck. This was followed by the Royal Air Force in sending Hunter jets to drop cans of aviation fuel to make the oil blaze. Seventy five per cent of the bombs were on target and both sections of the wreck were on fire.

However, exceptionally high tides had put the blaze out and it took further attacks by Sea Vixens from the Naval Air Station at Yeovilton and Buccaneers from the Naval Air Station at Brawdy as well as more RAF Hunters with napalm to ignite the oil until the wreck was free from oil.

Crowds of holidaymakers were watching the spectacle from the shoreline at Lands End. Though the bombing was declared a success the Press made much of the twenty five per cent of misses on a stationary target."

Archimedes, thanks for the reply, getting my post WWII conflicts mixed up. "Indonesian Air Force had Mustangs". Is this an early example of the USA arming the rest of the world only to get bitten on the bum? Of course now it's down to us to supply the IAF with Hawks, n'est ce-pas?

Torrey Canyon Statistics 42 bombs dropped, 25% missed target, 270 sq mi of oil in sea, 73 mi oil on coastline, 540 kl crude oil spilled

From :"British Divers Website"

Torrey Canyon:-

Position
50 02.50N; 06 07.73W.

Diving
Very broken, spread over a mile of reef, bow in gulley north west of pollard rock, stern well to south

Additional : Beware of unexploded bombs and rockets.

Is this where the 25% "missed" bombs are. Did they fail to arm through being dropped too low or near the target a la Argentinian Air Force in San Carlos Sound, May 1982?

John Eacott

29th Dec 2003, 11:28

Found a few more pics of Buccs at (reasonably) low level, taken from Ark's flight deck. Links are

here, (http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Bucc%2001.jpg) here, (http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Bucc%2002.jpg) and here (http://www.helicopterservice.com.au/photos/pprune/Bucc%2003.jpg) .

mutt

29th Dec 2003, 12:21

John,

Did you intend to give people access to ALL your photos??? Or just the ones in the Pprune directory?

Mutt.

John Eacott

29th Dec 2003, 12:52

Mutt,

The directory is just an ftp site, used for different areas & forums. If you want to look at them all, go ahead; plenty more back on the hard drive ;)

nimrodnosewheel

29th Dec 2003, 16:54

Good site for piccies, memories etc:-

www.blackburnbuccaneer.co.uk

www.blackburnbuccaneer.co.uk

eng1170

29th Dec 2003, 18:05

Great stories!! I loved the Bucc, and lived near Aberdeen for 7 years when I was a bit younger, our school was right under the approach to ABZ and many years were spent watching Bucc's overshoot instead of the blackboard (hence am only an a/c eng!!)

3 great memories from an infatuated schoolboy:

Lossiemouth airshow (1986?), hearing jets and turning round to see 2 Buccs coming round the tower a-la "Topgun" only lower noisier and way cooler!! Also the dummy airfield attack.

An airshow at Leuchars, again in the 80's, a Bucc coming across the airfield from the east, so low that most folk probably didn't see it stand out from the grass, (got a photo somewhere and when I had it developed I thought I'd missed the aircraft!) awesome display's everytime by the Bucc, especially in damp air.

Favourite memory was of being in a small fishing boat off Portpatrick in SW Scotland doing a spot of sea fishing when I pointed out to mates a small puff of smoke on the horizon, this VERY QUICKLY became a VERY LOW (it drew up a wake behind it!) and VERY FAST Bucc, she broke into a full 360 turn off the bow of our wee boat, rolled wings level and disappeared as fast as she appeared. I've alway's wanted to believe that we were the "victim's" of a beat-up, but what a way to see your last flying Bucc!! Still sends a cold shiver down my spine every time I think about it, what a machine.

amwaluk

30th Dec 2003, 06:05

Hi,

Was fortunate enough to be at Tain when the Bananajets were retiring. Saw some awesome displays of aircraft handling.

Memories and some awesome pics can be found at www.avcollect.com,I was unlucky enough to meet the photographer and look after him on his visit!! Only jokin Andy.

Anyway,enjoy the pics. She was a great bird only shadowed by the F111!

Regards
Ranger

Noah Zark.

30th Dec 2003, 08:38

I remember years ago stood on top of the "cliffs" (about 30 - 40 ft. high!) at West Runton in Norfolk, when a Bucc. came along, following the coastline.
The coastline at our standpoint was a gradual curve, and as the Bucc. approached from our right, it slowly banked to the left to follow the shore, until it passed us, vertically banked, no more than about 100 ft. from the cliff edge.
We could easily see the driver and looker, as we were looking straight down into the office.
I don't know how fast it was travelling, but the noise and the blast reached us a split second after it passed.
It was utterly amazing. The noise, the rush of air, and it was gone!
What an experience. It was truly awesome.

The Nr Fairy

30th Dec 2003, 15:19

I remember in the early / mid 80's when I lived in Malmesbury, walking back home from the Abbey (away from the town centre) when I saw a Bucc BELOW me, travelling roughly northwest.

Got only a brief glimpse, but enough to be mightily impressed.

Logistics Loader

30th Dec 2003, 19:31

I remember as an air cadet seeing a film of the Bucc's out in USA, not sure if they were on Red Flag though. But the "elite" (lol) yank pilots were trying to out do our guys. The Buccs then went low, so low in fact they were flying down a gully. The yanks didn't follow !! The camera operator could only track the Buccaneer's by the high tailplane, just being visible as she flew down the gully.
Belive there was another story with 2 Buccs, escorting a Vulcan on Ex Giant Voice, however they weren't visible on radar. Yet again our brothers from USA thought they had upper hand. Until 2 Buccs popped out from under the Vulcan, nice surprise !!!

Pontius Navigator

31st Dec 2003, 01:11

Nimrodnoswwheel
wrote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Morning Gents. I dredged this one up from hungover memory banks this morning. They weren't too clear so Google'd a couple of helpful sites for the facts. However, am I right in saying this is the only time British forces have used Napalm in anger? AND, did we really only get 75% of hits on target?!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have it on good authority that the RAF did NOT drop any napalm on the Torey Canyon nor did the RAF have any Napalm at that time. What they used was 'liquified petroleum jelly.'

During Korea I believe that Napalm was a fairly typical response to massed chicom attacks. It was usually dropped from Sky Raiders but may alson have been dropped by Sea Fury and other RN types.

Only 75%? 75% was pretty damn good in the 60s. We are still a long way from that even now with dumb bombs.

nimrodnosewheel

31st Dec 2003, 06:07

Pontius N:-

are you splitting hairs?! Napalm has now become a generic term for LPJ but it must have had some form of composition to prevent it burning itself out until it had attached to the oil and set fire to it. The original WWII compound was a mixture of of naphthene and palmitate (hence na-palm), also known as napthenic and palmitic acids, with gasoline which produced a brownish sticky syrup that burned more slowly than raw gasoline, and hence was much more effective at igniting one's target. It was, however, highly inflammable so a refinement was "napalm-B", super-napalm, or NP2. It uses no napalm at all. Instead, polystyrene and benzene are used as a solvent to solidify the gasoline. Thus, my contention is that the forces in 1967 must have used some form of a napalm type compound, though I'll defer to your authority if it's a good one.

As to the bombing accuracy, my reading led me to my comment at the end of the post. If the diver's are worried about UXBs then is it possible more hit but didn't activate?

PN, Ooops!! Having just posted the above I went in to the increasingly fascinating Vulcan thread. I note your comments to John Farley ref bombing accuracy in Cyprus and bow to your knowledge & experience.

Simtech

31st Dec 2003, 13:39

Logistics Loader,

I think I've seen a very similar film clip. The one I saw was taken by one of the technicians on the Red Flag range who was filming his colleagues setting up some electronic kit. The wash (gully) that the Buccaneers flew down was only about a hundred yards away from where they were working and, as you say, all you could see was the top of the fin and the tailplane poking above the desert. Superb - the Yanks were totally banjaxed and one could be heard muttering about the crazy Limeys and their underground air force!

NURSE

31st Dec 2003, 18:39

i was always lead to believe it was the fleet air arm who bombed torrey canyon. with 1000 lb'ers. The supposedly targeted individual bulkheads on ship. Source of this was video buccaneer the last british bomber. Another cracking bucc video. Pity some of the red flag footage and the trip through Beruit couldn't be put out on DVD/video.

eastern wiseguy

31st Dec 2003, 20:10

amwaluk

want to try the link?? ..seems to be corrupt ta!

smartman

31st Dec 2003, 22:35

NURSE

Hunters from 229 OCU (63,79 &234 Sqns) loosed-off a large quantity of 100-gall drop tanks filled with avtur on 28/29/30 March '67 - operating out of Chiv and St Mawgan. Hunters from West Raynham (1 & 54 Sqns - or maybe just 1) followed up with 230-gall (I think) tanks filled with napalm/LPJ (doesn't really matter which - similar nasty effect) ------- great sport. Sadly too many of those who partook are no longer with us.

At great risk of inviting, as Beags said recently, a host of boring war stories, anyone interested in posting a Hunter thread? Or has it already been and done? Most of us who flew it some forty or fifty years gone are, like JF, now looking a little ragged!!

Pontius Navigator

1st Jan 2004, 02:32

NimrodNoseWheel,

I wasn't splitting hairs, my remark was tongue in cheek. Napalm was unacceptable, LPJ was acceptable. Likewise the RAF stopped shoving 'volunteers' into gas chambers and instead used Respirator Testing Facilities. Oddly enough the German Air Force used gas chambers last time I looked.

Aren't euphemisms great fun?

nimrodnosewheel

1st Jan 2004, 03:32

Touche Pontius, though I distinctly remember the gas chamber at Henlow in the late 70s being called just that. The memories of the glint in the eye of the Regt instructor as he lit the CS pellet are still with me today.

Good New Year to one and all, signing off now for a few days. NNW.

Morrissey

1st Jan 2004, 05:09

Was on a school trip to Honington in 86 - you know the form, showing a load of snotty schoolkids who all want to be biggles round the base.

Come lunchtime the coach was parked up by the tower and we watched the Tornado coming and goings.

Suddenly big panic, Buc comes in and grinds to a halt about 50 yards from the coach, pursued by fire engines, smoke pouring from the undercarriage.

Certainly got everyone's attention!

ShyTorque

1st Jan 2004, 18:17

Nimrodnosewheel,

I agree, it was the "gas chamber" in the late 1970s, made from 12 by 12s, inside one of the hangars. Our Regiment instructor wasn't too bright and on one occasion he couldn't get the pellet to stay lit. Someone "helpfully" suggested he blew on it. He did, got down on his hands and knees to do so but stupidly took a deep breath for a second go. I think he was dragged out by his heels........ :E

amwaluk

1st Jan 2004, 20:09

Hi,Sorry guys the link should be www.avcollect.co.uk

It really is a splendid sight and a tribute to the Buccaneer.

Regards

Ranger703

Tourist

3rd Jan 2004, 22:54

John E,
On your ftp directory there is a phot of a scimitar being recovered onto the deck of a carrier. Any idea who the pilot was?

Woff1965

4th Jan 2004, 01:30

I remember seeing footage of Buccs flying through simulated Soviet AAA + SAM defences on a RED FLAG. The commentary was provided by US weapons operators cursing the RAF pilots for flying so low and fast.

I have looked all over the web but can't find any of this film - is it on a commercially available video somewhere? Or does someone have a copy sitting at the back of their garage somewhere?

John Eacott

4th Jan 2004, 05:41

Tourist,

The Scimitar shots are being hosted for Speechless Two. He may be able to help you if you PM him ;)

Khaosai

5th Jan 2004, 15:59

The Bucc used to upset my old man no end. After yet another 20 hr shift in the north sea on the fishing boat, tired, wet, hungry, up they would sneak and scare the hell out of them all. Ha ha I love it.

smartman

6th Jan 2004, 04:26

Has anybody thought as to why the Vulcan thread may be lo--------nger than this one? Might it be something to do with more than twice the crew strength, with similar payload, but in less demanding conditions - any wonder they had time to record their detailed memoirs ------

LBTP&R

Roghead

6th Jan 2004, 06:35

Simple really Smartman,the Vulcan lot could always talk a good war,certainly eat for the country,tried to drink for it as well,but never had to really prove themselves.They did have a go in the Falklands of course (denied to the Buccs as we no longer had a real Carrier) but the rest was just hot, stuffy air. Beags has been in both places perhaps he can explain.

Happy New Year.

FJJP

6th Jan 2004, 06:42

Oooooh! Catty! Most of the Vulcan guys I knew had a helluva lot of time and respect for the Bucc guys. I mean, who in their right mind would tear around at 50 feet at warp factor oh sh*t and enjoy themselves??!!

Seriously, both types had different jobs to do with radically different bits of kit in totally different environments. Both did a fab job; banter was a great factor in the mutual respect stakes...

Roghead

6th Jan 2004, 06:54

Ok then FJJP,perhaps I should have left it at "talking a good war".
Mind you they do have a lo--------nger thread than this one and are winning this war of memories.

:{ :{ :{

BEagle

6th Jan 2004, 07:09

I'm not really in much of a position to compare operating the Bucc with the Tin triangle as I didn't make it through the exceptionally unpleasant 237 OCU. When I arrived at Scampton I kept thinking of those 'hard man, soft man' interviews - everyone was so amenable and helpful that I kept waiting for the ba$tard to come out of his box....

But no. Life on the V-bumbler in 1977-80 was truly excellent; we had a far, far better standard of life than they had in the banana jet world! This was confirmed to me by ex-Vulcan mates who ended up on the Tornado - and really wished they hadn't bothered!

NURSE

6th Jan 2004, 07:19

I wonder how well the Bucc/Conventional carrier would have performed in the South Atlantic in 82. Would there have been any need for the Black Buck ops.

reynoldsno1

6th Jan 2004, 08:04

Anyone know what happened to Jim Crowley (ex PR9 13 Sqn & 208 Sqn) nav?

BEagle

6th Jan 2004, 14:42

Nurse - given weather and a sea state which would allow unhindered launch and recovery of naval Buccaneers and F4s, there's no doubt that Stanley aerodrome would soon have been put out of action; the Mirages and Daggers would have stood little chance against front hemisphere AIM7s launched by naval F4s. There would have been no real need for the Black Bucks - and Gannets would have provided organic fleet AEW.

But we only had our little Harrier carriers which lacked significant punch and whose SHARs were predominantly used as 'eyeball' fighters which only succeeded due to AIM9L and aggressive tactical flying.

smartman

6th Jan 2004, 17:50

BEagle

'only succeeded due to ---'

You go to war with what you've got - and if luck,
a good weapon and personal skill achieves success, why the need to add such a rider. Sure, a BVR capability would've been nice; but they didn't have one ----------

BEagle

6th Jan 2004, 18:13

Because the RN didn't have a true all-aspect front hemisphere radar missile such as Sparrow or Skyflash - which they would have had if the 'real' carriers with the naval F4 had been available.

SHAR wasn't a true alternative, the fact that it did so well in the Malvinas was down to some very good short range combat kills with the new AIM 9L. Was it ever fired radar-slaved in the front hemisphere? Or just in beam and stern shots. 2 risks there - either the bad guys get very close to the Task Force or you have a very short time on a long range CAP in a single engined jet over the balmy South Atlantic in the austral winter. Nice...

Whereas the F4, not perhaps as agile as the SHAR, had a vastly better MCS for fleet defence. Plus it could carry 8 missiles...and it had 2 crew...and 2 engines!

smartman

6th Jan 2004, 18:40

So - your point is??

BEagle

6th Jan 2004, 20:11

RTFQ!

Yes to Nurse, if we'd still had real carriers there wouldn't have been any need for Black Buck missions - and Bucc/conventional carrier would have done a good job.

Protected by organic air assets - F4 and Gannet - which would have been able to engage the opposition at rather greater ranges than did the SHAR.

hairyclameater

6th Jan 2004, 21:53

Plus the Phantoms had dedicated buddy AAR Buccs for extended CAP/range and the Gannets could have provided a long range SAR sentry if, God forbid we lost one.

Even with the F/A 2 and later the JSF, short ranged single engine over water ops are still a risky business and a modern Falklands air war would still be reliant on superior training and "making do"

Sorry, are we still talking about the wonderful Buccaneer here??

Gainesy

6th Jan 2004, 23:09

It's entirely posssible that if we had still had "real" carriers, the Junta would not have invaded the dump in the first place. (Stanby for Broadcast from WEBF).

NB According to Beeb R4 over the weekend, the Argie Govt are talking about Sovereignty of the Malvinas again. Maybe they assume we're busy eleswhere?:suspect:

Postman Plod

7th Jan 2004, 00:44

Would they be talking about sovereignty around about the same time as we are talking about defence cuts?? Umm.... does history ever repeat itself? How would Trust Me Tone get himself out of that one?? (I'm sure he would somehow...)

Woff1965

7th Jan 2004, 07:11

During the Falklands the FRS 1's operated in weather so foul that F4's, Buccs and Gannets would never have been able to take off let alone land again.

Of course when the CTOL mob would have been available they would have weilded a bigger stick than the Harriers.

Roghead

7th Jan 2004, 07:28

There's a shed load of bucc stories waiting to be told and several readers and contributors could add to this "I (should have)learned about flying from this" previously untold story.

208Sqn, pre the first Red Flag,culminated their training at Goose Bay with a firm dedication to fly fast and low.The plan was simple and required a 4 ship to fly a very wide battle, often as 2 pairs and even 4 singletons but to make a simulated attack at 3 or 4 targets at pre-determined times.Given the avionic fit at the time-none-it meant that the fablon covered,chinagraphed enhanced map,and the stop watch was the only help the nav had,but we were very cocky and confident. So, when Ramjet and I"lost" the others there was no panic and we flew the pre planned route listening out as usual and were surprised to hear the other three doing a "fly past" at one of the many strips in the Tundra."Can we do that and make the next target" asked Ramjet and of course we could I assured him.We called for our flypast, were approved and did the normal dust stirring bucc thing,high pull up, wing over and rush back to earth for even better reverse fly past. As we descended,I called the High Pylon and it was confirmed visual....as we got even closer I called it again- and again it was called visual(plus "don't panic!").Stiff upper lip prevented me from saying J:mad: as the starboard wing all but grazed the very solid pylon and we completed what the amazed Canadians called the most exciting fly past ever!. As we pulled away to join our mates for the final co-ordinated attack,feeling very smug,I happened to mention that we might need a touch of paint on our starboard wing and was met by silence.Very slowly Ramjet said "you mean port wing don't you" followed by "It was well clear,in fact I slid a little to the right just to make sure"

Great thing that offset nav seat.

So, we both saw it but neither of us saw them. We survived and can tell the tale. Great fun, great days but always something to learn.

Keep smiling: :O :O :O :O

T_Handle

7th Jan 2004, 07:29

R1

Last time I saw Jim Crawley, he was the boss of Goose Bay a few Years back.... if that helps at all?

T:cool:

Roghead

8th Jan 2004, 07:01

Nearly 24 hrs since I opened my heart and declared a youthful exurberance-bloody hell,how do you spell those words?- and there's no ex Bucc man or woman to add to the tales? How sad... it looks like the Vulcan thread really does have all the stories.

I could talk about the "208 Penetrate" T-shirts which attracted much attention on the Strip in Las Vegas,or the even more controversial "I wired Las Vegas" T-shirts but there are many out there better qualified to tell the story than me.
Then of course there's the Hereford Flypast, featuring the Severn Bridge; the undetected (but exercise illegal) low level attack of the fleet which was repeated by the Argies a few years later; and countless stories of the 237 OCU attempts to stifle real aircrew with real experiences from contributing real value to the OCU version of "training ".

OK,time for bed-I'm getting old.

:{ :{ :{

smartman

8th Jan 2004, 16:07

Roghead

Don't despair - remember, we were quite a shy lot really, and it took a lot to spur us. Have patience my son - let me finish my beer first. Oh - and just thank your lucky stars that you didn't do a stint at HQ1 Gp Bawtry - to live and work in the midst of all those tin triangle tossers was akin to living and working in the aircrew feeder. But some of them were actually quite nice.

I'll browse my Section5 and summon up thoughts of Gib, the film, AR firings, Denmark, etc etc. But you're right, there are heaps of tales out there to be told by the brethren. Some were told at the last Bucc Blitz - but I'm unable to recall them for some reason. Mustn't let the flat iron brigade prevail --

foldingwings

8th Jan 2004, 17:14

I thought the original question was from an interested enthusiast who had seen many a Bucc below him as he was cycling the A5 pass! Not a forum for sad old soaks, like me, who flew the Bucc at warpsnot (well subsonic warpsnot) as low as you could go.

If you are an old soak who has flown the Bucc and are not a member, but would like to be, of the now 10-year established Bucc Aircrew Association then drop me a PM identifying yourself and your "Bucc History" and I will advise the Membership Secretary. The BAA provides its very own forums electronically and in paper and bar room form for old soaks to exchange the friendly banter and apochryphal tales that made us such a formidable force in both the air and the social scene in days gone by.

Now. In answer to the original question, I quote from my retained copy of AP-101B-1202-14A Flight Reference Cards Buccaneer S Mk2A and 2B Issue No 5 August 1980 (AL No 3 May 1983).

Maximum Airspeeds
Clean: 580 kt IAS or 0.95M
Bomb Door Tank (locked open): 580 kt IAS or 0.9M (or store limit)
(rotation): 550 kt IAS or 0.85M

Max Accelerations (Indicated G)

Up to 44000lb AUW (below 0.88M) -3.1 to +6.0G
(at 0.95M) -2.75 to +4.4G

G linearly decreasing to

55000 to 59000lb AUW (below 0.88M) -2.1 to +4.0G
(at 0.95M) -2.0 to +3.0G

With stores (eg 1000lb bombs) on the pylons:

Max Airspeed (Mk2A): 560 kt IAS or 0.87M or 0.9M below 400 kts
The Mk2B Mach No was reduced by .02M because of its different shaped pylons.

So, there you have it - as I stated earlier "subsonic warpsnot" as low as you would dare to go and certainly below 50 ft (not prepared to commit in writing to anything else) over the 'oggin.

The great advantage, of course, was the bomb bay which unlike the Tornado (flown both) allowed the Bucc to cruise to the target at high speed and at a significantly reduced and very economic fuel rate!

Weapons delivery speeds - are for another day!!

Ah, the A5 Pass, the only place in Britain where you could fly legally at 250' MSD and still look up at the grockles pulling their caravans to the Welsh coast!!!

If you want to join us and flew the Bucc then send me a PM!

One very old soak now going back to his staff work!!!!

Roghead

8th Jan 2004, 21:40

Agreed, Foldingwings, but why spoil a good thread development for the sake of maintaining the original question integrity. Mind you it's a good way to drum up business for the BAA. I'll be in touch.

Keep smiling,
Retired in Scotland.
:D :D :D

normally left blank

9th Jan 2004, 17:34

The earlier post about XV351 that took the cable and barrier at Karup has been updated with b&w photos of the event and recovery.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?s=&postid=236874#post236874

The aft part of the canopy is broken, so did the nav eject through it? And the pilot then jettison it, before he left walking/running down the right wing?

As I remember, Buccaneers more often deployed to Aalborg (much better nightlife than Karup, which is in the middle of nowhere). ;)

Two callsigns come to mind "Jackal" and "Wombat".

Best regards

BEagle

9th Jan 2004, 18:03

We were always briefed that the navigator should eject if a barrier (not cable) engagement was likely as there was a danger of the barrier top cable catching the AR probe and forcing it through the navigtor's canopy. Also, if memory serves, it was safer just to go rather than call "Eject, eject" as that would avoid the possibility of the second crew member getting a face full of Buccanneer canopy? Hence the navigator would make his own decision........

smartman

10th Jan 2004, 17:58

foldingwings you have a private message

Runaway Gun

11th Jan 2004, 00:27

http://www.greatnationalcamera.com/album/users/habu21/1073752355.jpg

ZH875

11th Jan 2004, 00:52

Nice of the OCU to teach Bucc pilots the art of High Level flying...

Great Photo.

BEagle

11th Jan 2004, 08:26

It's only just getting airborne, surely?

Can't quite tell for sure, but the mainplane flaps and ailerons appear to be slightly drooped and the tailplane flap slightly raised - just on the way to fully in from 15-10-10?

smartman

11th Jan 2004, 17:26

Something far more obvious than that Mr BEagle

Noah Zark.

11th Jan 2004, 17:39

From not an expert. Tail skid not yet retracted?

BEagle

11th Jan 2004, 19:20

Could be. Can't remember - it's well over 25 years since I suffered 237 OCU.

But I'm sure that smartman will reveal all...

forget

11th Jan 2004, 19:58

Can I see a droopy Angle of Attack vane?? Maybe not.........

smartman

11th Jan 2004, 20:24

Noah ZArk

Tick VG -----------

normally left blank

12th Jan 2004, 03:26

In 1987 I was waiting at RAF Brüggen, 31 Sqn, for a Danish C-130 to be fixed. We were watching videos (No, not that kind :p ) and I remember a short one about how important it was to tie aircraft down properly. In glorious colour the tie downs snapped and a Buccaneer went to Davey Jones locker.

In Ian Allan Aircraft Illustrated Special, Peter R. Foster, 1987, XT269 is mentioned:

"Delivered 26/4/65 to RN and was lost when it rolled off the side of HMS Ark Royal at sea on 15/2/72 and sank."

Was that the actual event, that was turned into an - expensive - training film?

Best regards

Archimedes

12th Jan 2004, 04:14

Was the Bucc in the film painted white? XN954, an S1 (thank you, Tim Laming for refreshing my memory...) was pitched over the side of Ark Royal in April 1974 for a safety film (the S1 being out of service by that point, of course).

I haven't seen said film in toto, but have seen a white painted Bucc going over the side of Ark right at the end of the FAA museum's 'Carrier' Exhibit - I'm assuming that this is taken from the safety film, and making the further assumption that there is only one film of a Bucc going backwards off the deck!

Runaway Gun

12th Jan 2004, 04:22

My God Mr Beags,

Have you flown EVERY RAF fast jet type in the past 30 year inventory ??

What did you do (or didn't you) to get kicked from squadron to squadron? :D

BEagle

12th Jan 2004, 06:32

Just composed a full reply, pressed send and got that increasingly familiar 'server too busy' page. Reply lost in cyberspace.... :mad: :mad:

So, to summarise:

Chipmunk/JP/Gnat/Hunter. Posted to 58 Sqn, sqn disbanded a few weeks later. Posted to Buccs, top of student bombing ladder and weapons theory (100%), then chopped for lack of progress. JP ref, then Vulcan on 35 Sqn. Did Bombing comp in USA, selected for captaincy but asked to go back to fast jets. JP ref, then Hawk at Chiv (won best weapons trophy), then Phantoms. 500 hours and Operational, but not up to their requirements. Yet another ref course, this time on the worthless Jetstream. Then VC10 course, then VC10K on 101 Sqn. Co-pilot, then captain, then IRE before being sent to CFS. Won Bulldog aeros trophy, then off to UAS for 3 years with 6 months off as VC10K captain in GW1. Back to UAS, did A2, then posted back to VC10. Right place, right time - asked to join OCU staff. Then did everything one could possibly do on VC10, ended up as full A cat - was also going for A cat in AT after first 18 months as a B cat in the role, but the scheme was scrapped before I got the chance. Recommended to do A1 QFI upgrade, but had become increasingly disillusioned with meddling interference, wheel re-invention, constant cut-backs and people who never said thank you, so didn't get round to doing it. Decided to PVR, then sent to Binnsworth for final 7 weeks by grateful air force....20 years at Brize, 5000+hours on the '10 and not even a stn dining-out. Pretty well summed up the way things had changed over 20 years.... Feel valued..??

Best times were V-force, closely followed by first 18 years on the '10....until we began to work harder and harder for no reward; all stick and no carrot, assets clearly didn't match tasks... Enough was enough - so that's when I pulled the handle.

Best decision I ever made as I now get paid for doing things which the RAF used to take for granted - and the MD writes personally to say thank you! I work with a well-respected team, no-one is worried about promotion or helping some self-important pr@tt to crawl up a multi-starred rectum; instead we just concentrate on the task in hand.

Bitter? No, not really. Except that over 40 places in the UK alone where the RAF used to fly when I joined have now closed, most of the ac are well past their sell-by date....and yet the cuts just keep on coming! Good luck to those staying in - I think you're going to need it!

Noah Zark.

12th Jan 2004, 06:48

BEagle,
As a civvie, but avid supporter of our Armed Forces (but mainly an aero nut), I'd just like to say yours is a very creditable record.
But I am very sad to have to agree with your final comment. I am sure it is folly.
N.Z.

normally left blank

12th Jan 2004, 07:34

Thank You, Archimedes! That makes sence (S 1 overboard for the film). It sure got my attention, but I always wondered about the far too good quality of the "shooting" :ok:

Take off picture.

As a Dutch F-104 pilot told me: "Then we retract the undercarriage and descent to operational altitude".

Laarbruch, 1977, to visit "Shiny Two" 's shiny new recce Jaguars. Wot!? A crashed Canberra just off the runway? But that was only for firepractice. And then the unforgettable sight of 15 and 16 Sqn Buccaneers departing.

We had a guided tour of the Bucc. simulator. A TV-camera "flew" across the model landscape and lots of fans to take away the heat, when the sun (hundreds of lamps) was "shining".

Those were the days ;)

smartman

12th Jan 2004, 19:47

Is it a tad ironic that you choose to use this particular thread to beat your chest BEagle?

BEagle

12th Jan 2004, 20:20

Hardly that - just answering his question.

Still consider 237 OCU to have been the worst place I was ever unfortunate enough to serve at, mind you. Utterly appalling 'us and them' attitude from most of the alleged instructional staff.

foldingwings

12th Jan 2004, 21:53

BEagle,

I have a spare can of Pledge should either of your chips need polishing.

I always found 237 to be very good judges of character!

Runaway Gun

13th Jan 2004, 01:46

Thanks for answering my question Mr Beagle!

I'm glad to hear that you were simply shafted, and were not passed around due to disciplinary reasons :)

I hope that others are now benefiting from your experiences (aviation-wise, not shafting wise).

BEagle

13th Jan 2004, 03:20

foldingwings, thank you for the kind offer of Pledge.

But perhaps you'll need it for your halo?

Runaway Gun (had one of those once in an F4 - SUU23 fired out before I could get to the center station selector to turn it off!) - thanks for your kind words. But I wasn't shafted really, just the way things were back then.... At least I got the chance to fly some interesting classic jets!

Anyway, back to the Bucc. What's the full SP on the one at Scampton? Does it stand any chance of flying again? B£oody hope so!

TD&H

14th Jan 2004, 22:47

Was the Buccaneer's TFR solely based on MkI eyeball or did you have any electric aids?

Also what was the training for the roll inverted over a ridge technique for keeping low level over the bumps in the ground? Did you have some knowledge of what was on the other side of the bump or how wide the bump was before tackling it (besides normal pre-flight planning) or rely on being able to see the ground ahead whilst inverted to then decide your next moves?

Runaway Gun

15th Jan 2004, 00:29

Standard low level training teaches to pull up quite early, use your eyes to see what is over the ridge, then rolling and pulling over. Looking well ahead for future obstacles (and up for the mountain top itself).

jimgriff

15th Jan 2004, 02:24

Have seen this done many times here in Mid Wales. But reading how you do it makes me feel slightly sick just thinking of it!!

White Horse

15th Jan 2004, 18:42

Oh, the memories.
The work-up out of Machrihanish for the 1st Red Flag (1977) ....fantastic .
Briefed close formation with Tornados at low level ,IMC whilst tornado is TFRing (soft mode) ...Pave spike ops.
Generally Fatastic.. probably the BEST EVER flying possible anywhere.
As for a previous comment.. I think it was V.B'wood who once said ( and I think it was during the 1st Red Flag) "S..t ,I thought we were going to have to fold the wings to get through THAT gap" commenting on "shambles yarrow" chosing a particularly narrow gap to fly through

tu chan go

16th Jan 2004, 22:20

Time to stick in my tuppence worth.

I had a Bucc up to 615kts IAS once (at v low level). The shock wave of the quite thick wing travels up the tailplane until the whole rudder is blanked thus moving the ball firmly to one side. You could kick the ball back into the middle but it would just rocket over to the other side! Once the shock wave hit the T tail, the stick would start buffetting about which is quite alarming at 50ft! Having said that, the aircraft was a peach to fly even as it tried to shake you to death.

Yes, quite a handfull in the cct but then so is the Tornado (have flown both)

No, there were no electronic aids to low flying but the jet was so stable, you could take your hands off the controls and it wouldn't crash - the Tornado would!!

I remember a Sqn exchange to Twenthe in Holland during which we flew some of the Dutch F-16 pilots in the back seat. One of my mates was cruising along at 100ft and the mate in the back looked forawrd and said ,"Do you always fly with your left hand, Smithy?" (He could see Smithy's right hand resting on the coaming).

"No" came the reply as Smithy held both hands up to show the cloggy!

After 25 years flying in the finest air force in the world ( and I have experienced my fair share of some of the others!), the Bucc will always rank high in my affections.

What a beast!!

LOMCEVAK

21st Jan 2004, 05:29

A certain Bucc pilot whose name referred to rivers overflowing reckoned that he held the world low level, high speed penny whistle playing record - 200 ft and 550 kts. But then he did always fly a little high!

No-one has mentioned any of the Buccaneer songs yet! (Whatever happened to singing in the bar on a Friday night?)

normally left blank

23rd Jan 2004, 18:18

From “Air Clues, the Royal Air Force Magazine” (my favourite bedtime reading for many years) June 1980:

I learnt about flying from that

Some years ago I had the good fortune to fly Buccaneers with the Royal Navy during a tour embarked on a venerable aircraft carrier. The Mk. 2 version of the Buccaneer was very new in those days. In fact our squadron was the first to be equipped with it, and we had to put up with numerous engine modification programmes involving many engine changes - not always an easy task on board. However, at the end of one session of engine changes when almost every aircraft had undergone another double engine change, our stalwart squadron junior engineer, who was known as Split Pin, was offered a sortie as a reward for all his hard work. It was, naturally, a double engine flight test.
Now Split Pin was not a keen aviator. But he duly accepted the offer and was eventually strapped into the rear seat of a Buccaneer by a couple of grinning ratings. Not surprisingly he found the accommodation in the rear cockpit rather uncomfortable. Meanwhile I jumped in (you couldn’t really do external checks with half the aircraft sticking over the South China Sea) and started up. Half way through the after start checks a voice from the back seat said “Is it serviceable then?” “Of course not” I retorted, “None of the lot you service ever are!” I was joking of course, but unfortunately Split Pin believed me.
At that point Split Pin unstrapped because he was uncomfortable. He was not surprised when I taxied forward towards the catapult because the SOP for unserviceable aircraft was to keep their engines running and to taxy forward to park clear of the flight deck landing area. However, he was considerably surprised when the aircraft was tensioned up on the catapult. “Hey, what’s happening? Are we going to be launched?” he enquired. “Of course!” said I, busying myself with the engine checks before launch. I didn’t know that Split Pin was unstrapped - he didn’t dare tell me!
Anyway, off we went, and I flew the whole flight test profile chanting out all the figures to a strangely silent passenger. Eventually we recovered back on board without incident and only after shutting down did I discover that Split Pin had spent the whole sortie trying to strap himself in again. Needless to say his attempts weren’t very successful - and he hadn’t taken down any of the readings required by the flight test schedule!
The moral of this sad story is firstly, always say what you really mean when you are in an aircraft, and secondly never joke with engineers about the serviceability of their aircraft - they always take it too seriously.

First frontline Royal Navy S.Mk 2 Sqn: No. 801 Squadron, 7 Oct. 1965, formally commissioned 14 October with seven aircraft. The disbanded No. 700B Flight formed the nucleus of 801 Sqn. HMS Victorious 14.5.66 - 8.6.66 Home/Med. 8.7.66 - 13.6.67 Far East cruise (Three shore calls at Changi) . (Wings of Fame, Vol. 14).

Best regards

P.S.
Overheard at Headley Court:

"I'm a little stiff from Rugby."

PTI:

"I don't care where you come from, sir, get those knees bent!"

:D

cheekeymonkey

24th Jan 2004, 16:31

Scuse me if this is a repeat, but couldn't be hassled wading thru all the replies!:D

I remember my CO, a few years ago, telling me a lovely story about his time on Buccs. He was in Akrotiri, on 5 mins readinnes during the beirut crisis, and things turned real nasty for the Brit UN force there.

So off they went (just 2 of em), loaded with 1000lb 'ers (I think - although this story is second hand), and wired the city....apparently the lebaneese warring factions papped their panties and backed off, the Brits were pulled out then it all ent to mary hell and back (US Embassy bombing etc).

I told him I hear a story that they came back with TV aerials embedded in the fuselage, to which he replied 'Thats rubbish...we were flying below the aerials, between the apartment blocks....' :ooh:

I began respecting older people from then on....:ok:

T_Handle

19th Feb 2004, 06:06

Answer to an earlier post....

Just remembered, I think Jim Crowley is the boss of OASC at Cranwell.

If he is still there of course.

Cheers T:E

Arbie

19th Feb 2004, 07:51

Last time I ran into him, Jim Crowley was instructing on F Troop at Cranwell on the Dominie......

Pontius Navigator

20th Feb 2004, 04:53

Beagle, 35 in Cyprus or UK?

BEagle

20th Feb 2004, 05:15

Chimbu chuckles

21st Feb 2004, 19:16

Know a chap, ex RN Buccs, with headon, very low level picture of a Bucc....taken through the periscope of a submarine:D

See if I can point him towards this thread.

Chuck.

Roghead

22nd Apr 2004, 18:45

As the subject of stickies seems to upset some of the younger(?)posters who clearly have no soul with regard our aviation history, and as this thread never achieved sticky status,I thought it time to bring the Buccaneer back to the top with this picture taken over NE Malaya in the mid sixties.
Apologies for the text but the picture was used in a very different presentation.

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v150/roghead/d4788cff.jpg

:E :E

Magoodotcom

23rd Apr 2004, 12:05

Love the Buc, but also love the F-111...anyone care to compare?

johnfairr

23rd Apr 2004, 14:21

Magoodotcom,

There is a guy on here, Smartman, who flew with a nav I knew who did tours on the Bucc, both RAF and RN I believe, and then an exchange with the RAAF on the Aardvark. He might be able to give you an opinion on the relative merits of both beasts....

:ok:

foldingwings

24th Apr 2004, 08:29

Good to see that the Bucc Low Level thread has been resurrected and elevated back to its rightful position on Page 1 of this Forum.

RogHead you still haven't got in touch about the Bucc Aircrew Association!

Songs? Compiling a book of Bucc Songs as we speak!

When XV came to Laarbruch what a happy day,
Rocketry and Stripro, visual all the way,
And then there appeared upon the scene
A shabby team, it was 16,
'cos they've got Psittacosis
the dreaded Parrot Pox!

(To the tune of Lily Marlene)

There's more but you would have to buy the book!

smartman

24th Apr 2004, 10:44

Magoodotcom

johnfairr's quite right - I'll tap my man and get back soonest. To no avail, I spent several years in Oz comparing Typhoon with the Aardvark (please fellas, resist the temptation!) - so if I can dredge my Bucc experience, maybe I can add a bit too. There's also the RAF Bucc pilot who did the Aardvark exchange along with my nav - so if you're there Timmy, let's hear it for Mister Magoo -------------

Roghead

24th Apr 2004, 14:29

This, I think, is a rare AAR photo-- 2 Civvies and the last of the Binbrook Lightnings

http://img49.photobucket.com/albums/v150/roghead/refuel.jpg

Foldingwings,I will be in touch - nothing changes except I'm older and slower.

:{ :{ :{

Magoodotcom

24th Apr 2004, 22:54

Thanks smartman...looking forward to anything you can dig up.

Here in Oz we're a little sad the 'Pig' is going to be parked a little earlier than anticipated, especially as all they're going to replace it with is a stand off missile armed F/A-18 and eventually the JSF. Much the same angst I guess you guys went through 15 years ago with the Bucc retirement.

:(

Netherways

26th Apr 2004, 12:30

Guys,

Does anybody on here know of a guy called Jon "Rainman" Watkins who i've (very regrettably) lost contact with over the past few years. He owns a bucc based in the UK somewhere (cant remember where for the life) I've got some pics of him with the Aircraft so i can dig the Tailnumber out if it would be of any use to anyone.

Anybody at all able to help me locate the guy? All i can remember is that he Flew F4's before moving onto the Bucc and then becoming and instructor on the Tornado. I beleive he was based at Lossie for some of the time. Any help finding an old friend is most appreciated. (Mainly because i never got to see his Bucc in the flesh!)

Thanks,

Alex